Do you think GPL will sell?

I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy it because we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out there, do you think this game will sell very well? Can you see Joe Consumer walking into his local software store and buying a 1967 Formula Racing Sim? I honestly can't. I think that the game will definately sell better overseas then it will in North America, but that can probably be expected seeing that it's a F1 sim. How many average consumers are aware that this game contains the most realistic physics in any racing sim ever? Of course, Sierra will state such on the box, but I think that people are kinda numb to seeing "The best ever" and "The most realistic such-and-such" on nearly every single game box. Overall, I can't really see this game seeling much better then Soda Off-Road Racing in *North America*. Possibly Euro sales will carry this game. What does everyone think? Don't flame me or anything, I'm just trying to get everyone else's view. PS....I hope that this game IS a best seller. It DESERVES to be.

Actually, we all wish that GPL will perform well on the mass *** market. But seriously, naw... I don't see how it will get sales. It's different from per example an historical air simulation, as the mass air simulation fan-base is enough to make a good selling out of it. Let's see.. Check out North America. Sierra Sports are enough stupid to KILL Grand Prix Legend by shipping Nascar Racing 1999 just 2weeks after it. WOW, great marketing skill <g>. The redneck gets to the store, see GPL and Nascar1999. Who do they choose ? heh pretty simple. The North American market is really big, especially since there's about no other racing titles out (I mean big titles) until X-mas. European/Australian market. There's TOCA 2. Colin McRae Rallye. Ubisoft MonacoGP. Just that last title will crush GPL. Not because it's better but... The normal gamer gets to his store. He has 2titles he thinks buying... the 1998 season's MonacoGP, or GPL.... pretty easy choice. Well, that's what I think will arrive, but let's hope it's _NOT_ the case. Another slap in the face for Papyrus, man that's bad (let's hope not). It's also bad for the future of the company, but that's another thing... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

First of all, Notrh America IS overseas :-) I definately think GPL will be a bestseller. I'm not a big F1 fan or anything, I don't even have a single F1 sim right now. The first preview of GPL I read was like 1/3 of a page in some magazine that cought my attention. It didn't say very much about the sim, but enough te make me search the web for some more info. Every bit I read about GPL made me more enthousiastic, and when I tried the demo..... SOLD!!!!!! No one can resist a good sim like this. My point? If a non-F1-fan, like me, can be convinced in just a few days that this is a MUST-HAVE sim, and that it started by just a few line article. It must become a bestseller. It just takes two steps: 1. Read about what papy tried to achieve with the sim. 2. Learn that they *DID* achieve this ( play the demo). that's all there is to it. // Johan

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> I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what > everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy it because > we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out there, do > you think this game will sell very well? Can you see Joe Consumer walking > into his local software store and buying a 1967 Formula Racing Sim? I > honestly can't. > I think that the game will definately sell better overseas then it will in > North America, but that can probably be expected seeing that it's a F1 sim. > How many average consumers are aware that this game contains the most > realistic physics in any racing sim ever? Of course, Sierra will state such > on the box, but I think that people are kinda numb to seeing "The best ever" > and "The most realistic such-and-such" on nearly every single game box. > Overall, I can't really see this game seeling much better then Soda Off-Road > Racing in *North America*. Possibly Euro sales will carry this game. What > does everyone think? Don't flame me or anything, I'm just trying to get > everyone else's view. > PS....I hope that this game IS a best seller. It DESERVES to be.

If it simply sells 100,000 copies world-wide it has earned its keep and then some. Here in Oz the retail price will be pretty close to AUS$90-00. > I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what > everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy it because > we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out there, do > you think this game will sell very well? -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

>Path: >If it simply sells 100,000 copies world-wide it has earned its keep and >then some. >Here in Oz the retail price will be pretty close to AUS$90-00. Bruce, The exact break even point is probably a bit above that. It's all to easy to forget that of your $90, Cendant will see only about 40% of it, less fixed costs. Z.

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> I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what >everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy it because >we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out there, do >you think this game will sell very well? Can you see Joe Consumer walking >into his local software store and buying a 1967 Formula Racing Sim? I >honestly can't. >I think that the game will definately sell better overseas then it will in >North America, but that can probably be expected seeing that it's a F1 sim. > How many average consumers are aware that this game contains the most >realistic physics in any racing sim ever? Of course, Sierra will state such >on the box, but I think that people are kinda numb to seeing "The best ever" >and "The most realistic such-and-such" on nearly every single game box. >Overall, I can't really see this game seeling much better then Soda Off-Road >Racing in *North America*. Possibly Euro sales will carry this game. What >does everyone think? Don't flame me or anything, I'm just trying to get >everyone else's view.

Once I had a race course, with Formula Fords. (Fun fun fun, but that's another story) The instructor said: "We know that any of you believes that he is the best driver around here". I think he was right. If Joe Customer is told that GPL is so difficult that only "real" drivers could master it, it could be a major selling point. Since GPL seems to be so well ballanced, I'm not afraid. GPL will sell. Yep. Remco

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>>Path: >>If it simply sells 100,000 copies world-wide it has earned its keep and >>then some. >>Here in Oz the retail price will be pretty close to AUS$90-00. >Bruce, >The exact break even point is probably a bit above that. It's all to easy to >forget that of your $90, Cendant will see only about 40% of it, less fixed >costs. >Z.

I'll stand corrected- it will be much above that.... there day-one ship to Europe is 200,000 units, and marketing spend is 500,000. Break even point? Hate to guess. 200k+, i would imagine. Z.

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>>>Path: >>>If it simply sells 100,000 copies world-wide it has earned its keep and >>>then some. >>>Here in Oz the retail price will be pretty close to AUS$90-00. >>Bruce, >>The exact break even point is probably a bit above that. It's all to easy to >>forget that of your $90, Cendant will see only about 40% of it, less fixed >>costs. >>Z. >I'll stand corrected- it will be much above that.... >there day-one ship to Europe is 200,000 units, and marketing spend is >500,000. >Break even point? Hate to guess. 200k+, i would imagine. >Z.

Ohh, and FYI, 2 Oct ship, alongside Monaco GP, and it seems Colin McRae a week later. Thats a really crowded time for a release, and so far, McRae has been attracting the finest reviews in the Uk press. Z.

> I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what > everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy > it because > we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out > there, do > you think this game will sell very well? Yes I do think it will sell well, and I hope it does, as IMHO it really is a turning point in driving sim history. Nov 98 issue of PC Zone (UK) gave GPL a 2 page spread review and a 90% rating (which makes it a *classic* rated game). Oct 98 issue of PC Gamer (UK) gave GPL a 4 page spread review and a 93% rating (which makes it the game of the month). Both reviews point out that to get the best from GPL there is a *steep* learning curve, and they both make the point that it is classed as a die hard *sim*, rather than a game. This may put people off? However, very high ratings such as these will help sales IMO, as Joe public *does* take notice of the mainstream *** mags. Look at GP2 & F1RS, both classed as die hard sims by us, as well as others, but both had good sales, I think GP2 was one of the biggest sellers ever wasn't it? I think GPL also has *novelty* value to the average gamer cos its based on the 67 season, rather than an ultra modern sim/game (been there, done that?) We do not have long to wait anyway before we all find out....just get out there and buy it!!!! 9-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

Ahem. *You* are overseas sunshine! :o) There are such things as magazine reviews. If they sell this not as a game but as simulation they may get people who aren't into *** buying this. Take flight sims. I know a number of people who are interested in flying and would quite happily buy MSFS98 or even X-Plane if they owned computers. Yes. Euro sales will carry this game. After all Europe is where F1 started from. In fact I'm surprised you say *Possibly* Euro sales will carry this through. Can you imagine Papy trying to sell Nascar 3 in Europe?

I completely agree, and that is the sad part of what I consider false advertising on many game boxes and adverti***ts. For example, Cart Precision Racing. I had some non-sim head friends who I had turned onto Indycar 2, tell me that they picked up CPR after reading some game magazine reviews and reading the specs on the box, and they were asking me what the problem was and were they missing something. Fortunately for them, they had purchased it from a store that would take it back, so I told them "What you see, is what you get, even with the patch", so they took it back. Unfortunately for me, I bought it when it came out and waited for the patch to fix it and thus lost out on my time to return it for refund. You win some you lose some. I have already had so much more enjoyment from the GPL Watkins Glen and Monza demos than I ever did with CPR full version with patch. I would be willing to pay Papyrus 4 times the regular price if they deliver Indycar 3/CART 2/CART 2000 or whatever with the same quality. I just wish they could get it to me quicker! Don Chapman

> I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what >everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy it because >we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out there, do >you think this game will sell very well? Yes, better than any pure sim to date - I've talked to several casual gamers and even non-gamers and all are interested in this pogram. Joe

Hmm, obviously PC Gamer being an exception...? Cheers! John

One thing I wonder is what happens when someone without existing driving-sim skills tries these realistic titles. Folks with years of sim driving expierience have difficuitly driving GPL, who have expensive wheels and peddles setups and systems that provide good frame rates. When Joe Bloggs buys a copy to run on his P150 with an S3 card and 32mbs ram using a dinky joystick for input control what happens? Do they just end up throwing it aside as a bad joke ? I supose it depends on the individual but I can't help but feel there'll be a lot of very frustrated would-be sim racers around. ( As opposed to very frustrated supposed-to-be sim races like me ;-) But then I also wounder how there's a market for hugely expensive input control devices. I know us driving sim fans will buy anything if we can afford it but we're fanatics. I'd have thought there wouldn't be enough of us to keep the various high end control device makers in business. But some at least have waitting lists. They can't make them fast enough. I tend to agree with you. The thing is what will they also see on the shelf at the same time. There's lots ( and lots ) of racing titles ATM - even though only three or four are worth noting. Many titles boost on the box that they depict a near current season of the road sport they represent. Also quite a few have some well known racing drivers' name on the box. And without exception they ALL boost how they are the latest greatest thing ever to happen to computer simulator programming. Now we know how little this means but for the uninformed buyer these sale points may be considered in their decision. Even reviews in magazines are so full of rubbish you have to wonder about how the writers come to say what they do. I hope GPL sells well and sets new records for its area. I hope Papy makes so much money they can go on to other titles with this kind of technology at double pace. Cheers Phillip McNelley

I don't think it will sell at all here in the U.S. F1RS sold 400,000 copies worldwide, yet I still couldn't find it in stores near where I live. I'm outside of Philadelphia which is the 4th largest market in the country, so just about everything is available in large quantities if there's a demand for it. GPL is even more of a niche product since it's a historic sim. Sims sell less than arcade games, and historic sim fans must be a really small group. F1 isn't even popular in the U.S., especially since no races are run here. There's a NASCAR race every five minutes (which I have 0 interest in). I imagine Papyrus knows that GPL won't be a big seller. Dave DmndDave

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>True. >Make that 200,000 copies! >In Oz alone it will probably sell to the tune of several thousand in >initial and pre-Christmas sales. >> The exact break even point is probably a bit above that. It's all to easy

to >> forget that of your $90, Cendant will see only about 40% of it, less fixed

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>> costs. >> Z. >-- >Regards, >Bruce. >---------- >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> This subject arose yesterday with the manager from my local EB store. I asked > him if I could reserve a copy of the game he said 'yes'. I then asked him if > he will honor the lower price as quoted in PC Gamer. He said 'yes, just bring > in the ad'. I then asked him if he thinks the sim is going to do well. He > said 'no not really, but the initial sales should be ok...after that although, > the title will lose all momentum...' I actually think exactly the opposite. I think the game will do ok at first and continue to do ok via word of mouth reputation. Much like ICR2/Cart Racing. Just the opposite to CPR which would have started with a bang and finished VERY soon there after with it's pitiful reputation. Also, the interested oldies will at least partially make up for a lack of sales to the younger simmers :) -- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

True. Make that 200,000 copies! In Oz alone it will probably sell to the tune of several thousand in initial and pre-Christmas sales. > The exact break even point is probably a bit above that. It's all to easy to > forget that of your $90, Cendant will see only about 40% of it, less fixed > costs. > Z. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>Let's see.. Check out North America. Sierra Sports are enough stupid to >KILL Grand Prix Legend by shipping Nascar Racing 1999 just 2weeks after it. >WOW, great marketing skill <g>. The redneck gets to the store, see GPL and >Nascar1999. Who do they choose ? heh pretty simple. <snip> Hey, I'm sorta a "redneck", and I'm gonna buy both <g> Ken

Its hard to say, gp2 was a mega seller and is still probably the best part of any cash MicroProse has left! Gpl doesnt have the same hype building up to it in mags but when it comes out I dont think any of us will doubt 90%+ are expected and that will surely get lots of peoples attention! There were lots of non gamers who bought a pc with wheel just to play gp2 and I think if they were prepaired to spend that much then a lot will go and get a voodoo2 and this game and die happy..... What I really will think will make papy some cash in the long run is the engine. Apply this fantastic engine to anything indy, nascar, touring cars, modern f1 and you have a mega hit wating to happen. > I was just thinking about it tonight, and was curious as to what >everyone else thought. Of course, most of us on this NG will buy it because >we are the die-hards supposedly. But to the rest of the world out there, do

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>you think this game will sell very well? Can you see Joe Consumer walking >into his local software store and buying a 1967 Formula Racing Sim? I >honestly can't. >I think that the game will definately sell better overseas then it will in >North America, but that can probably be expected seeing that it's a F1 sim. > How many average consumers are aware that this game contains the most >realistic physics in any racing sim ever? Of course, Sierra will state

such >on the box, but I think that people are kinda numb to seeing "The best ever" >and "The most realistic such-and-such" on nearly every single game box. >Overall, I can't really see this game seeling much better then Soda Off-Road >Racing in *North America*. Possibly Euro sales will carry this game. What >does everyone think? Don't flame me or anything, I'm just trying to get >everyone else's view. >PS....I hope that this game IS a best seller. It DESERVES to be.

Sorry about my name in the previous post...... some of my friends are true idiots.

Hey,careful with that redneck stuff <g>. I was born and bred in the eastern TN hills, love Nascar, but I will be buying GPL the day it hits the store. I mean, it does have at least an oval in there somewhere right? -- Don Burnette Palmetto Racing Dburn on Ten AOLL Iroc Series Administrator http://pages.southtech.net/palmetto/aoll.htm snip snip

If it doesn't it'll only be because of some narrow-minded folk missing the point by about four miles (or my average breaking distance into the final turn at Monza, whichever is longer). I can't remember the last time I saw a Nascar or IndyCar race... maybe three years now as I don't have satellite/cable. But I've bought Nascar1 twice (once on floppy, once on CD to get SVGA), Nascar2, ICR1, and ICR2 twice (because it was part of a UK bundle with B2 when it came out). Why? Because they were the best simulators available at the time. I didn't even know IndyCar racing existed (seriously!) until I saw reviews of ICR1. But I didn't think "Never heard of it, must be cr*p", I thought "What an incredible looking sim! Someone buy me a PC and do it quick!". To me GPL isn't an F1 simulator as such, it's just the 1st serious driving simulator! I bet (in an 99% of all statistics are made up sort of way) there are modern production cars that handle just as "badly" as these GPL cars. If they'd changed the graphics and called it "Kit Car Simulator '98" or "Overpowered Porsche 911 on 2nd hand tyres with the spoilers ripped off and the engine management gone AWOL" then it'd still be the same superb driving experience. Bottom line is the only reason for any sim racer not to buy this sim is they're too lousy to handle the Noddy mode driving :-) Let them go buy RS2 instead and dribble over (the admittedly gorgeous) graphics while they're led round the track by the nose. Me? I'm sick of hearing about the warez version and watching the calendar dribble sloooooowly towards Oct 9th. It's going to be a great Autumn... if I can get three months of work. Andrew McP

I think it's very difficult to sell well such a game, even if I just made a reservation for my copy in a computer store :-) Well, I'm in Italy, and also here only the real F1 and F1 sims fans will buy it. Other people think it's too difficult to handle. That's the point. For many people it's too difficult to drive compared with today's car sims. They don't think that this is obvious, since the cars are from 1967 so they are very different from today's. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain." "E tutti quei momenti andranno perduti nel tempo, come lacrime nella pioggia" Roy Batty, Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, MonacoGP will not have official license, so maybe it will lose some appeal because of this, but I read many posts on italian groups about GPL being too difficult to drive, the car is too slippery, you can't make the turns very fast and so on.... --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain." "E tutti quei momenti andranno perduti nel tempo, come lacrime nella pioggia" Roy Batty, Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------

I also had a very short driving course at Jerez this March, very funny !!!! The problem with GPL is that maybe it will be somewhat frustrating in the beginning, so Joe Customer will probably buy it, find it too difficult and tell other people not to buy it... I hope you are right, because I found GPL really exciting, even if I tried only the first demo (Watkins Glen) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain." "E tutti quei momenti andranno perduti nel tempo, come lacrime nella pioggia" Roy Batty, Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------

PS: Crashing looks fun. That'll keep people interested while they learn!

>When Joe Bloggs buys a copy to run on his P150 with an S3 card and >32mbs ram using a dinky joystick for input control what happens? Do It gives people like me the opportunity to pick up a cheap used copy of the game and then apply all the patches that have come out in the meantime. Cheers, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

>>Once I had a race course, with Formula Fords. (Fun fun fun, but that's >>another story) The instructor said: "We know that any of you believes >>that he is the best driver around here". I think he was right. >I also had a very short driving course at Jerez this March, very funny >!!!! Hehe. Walking a week with a big grin on your face, didn't you? Is possible...But he/she then admit that he/she isn't a good driver. Knowing people, most of them won't do that. Remco

After racing a lot at Watkins Geln and Monza, I must say that even though the game engine is terrific it won't cut it for me, unless they add (in the release version) some kind of "reduce with speed" option. It's just too damn hard to stay on the track, even (and stangely so) on straightaways. I just can't imagine how it'll be possible to race head to head in multiplayer mode while both players struggle to keep a straight line... For those of you who still think a "reduce with speed" option is unrealistic I have two answers: 1- You wouldn't have to turn it on unless you really want to. 2- The only realistic thing to do would be to make the steering harder to turn as speed increases. And since a) I don't think it'll be done and mostly b) not everyone owns or can afford a Force Feedback controller, they have to compensate and find a way to "simulate" the effect of speed. This problem alone will make me think twice before I buy the game. Don't forget that a game should be fun to play (heck, we don't get paid!) and the way it behaves right now makes me so frustrated I sometimes feel like throwing my whole computer through my window... Really it would be a sad thing if they didn't add such a feature. This sim has so much potential... And don't say it's too late for suggestions, I suggested this almost a year ago (I'm sure some will remember that debate). But still, I'm crossing my fingers... A. Renault

<snip> % >I think that the game will definately sell better overseas then it will in % >North America, but that can probably be expected seeing that it's a F1 sim. % Well, I'm in Italy, and also here only the real F1 and F1 sims fans % will buy it. Other people think it's too difficult to handle. If the "unexperienced" start with the easier cars and use some of the aids, I feel that GPL will not be too difficult for them to handle. It will still offer a challenge to them. If they like it and get hooked, they may find themselves moving up to the more "difficult to handle" cars and enjoy it that much more. Even if they stay with the "underpowered" cars and use the aids, there should be a enough staying power in the simulation to keep them hooked. Especially if they ever try racing on-line. I think "we" are judging GPL being "difficult to handle" because we are too far superior to try the "easy" cars. I mean we are men here not the boys, right? [Whoops, should say, "We are men & WOMEN here, not boys and girls, right?"] We won't mess around with quiche when we can have steak! Try taking a look at GPL from a less-die-hard-racing-simmer point a view and use the GP2 or GP3 cars. % That's the point. For many people it's too difficult to drive compared % with today's car sims. They don't think that this is obvious, since % the cars are from 1967 so they are very different from today's. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% We both agreed that there hasnt been any real advertising push on behalf of % Sierra and the sim will definitely have more life over in Europe. Since when has Papyrus ever had a "real advertising push"? I still find it odd that they have never run an ad campaign during televised NASCAR events for their NASCAR products (the same goes for CART). As it is they may feel that their products speak for themselves and the "word of mouth" is worth more than pouring money into TV ad campaigns (which then means they most sell even more copies to recoup their costs). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Seeing this Subject, I was about to drop a smart remark, but after reading it... Scott is correct. It's all about the frame of reference. People who live and die by this stuff will think it is the best thing in the world. Meanwhile the other 99.9% of the world doesn't know and doesn't care. I'm sure it will sell very well... for a game of this type. That is the kicker, for a game of this type. In the world wide scheme of things it hardly matters. Perhaps a gage would be how many boxes does the local EB have on the shelf when it comes out. Ten, twelve? Figuring they are supplying a community of maybe 10,000, that's pitiful in terms of sails volume. No wonder software companies who produce this sort of product are small. There just isn't that much business. As an example, remember the 1993 Mazda RX-7? Enthusiasts moaned and complained no one made a "real" sports car then Mazda called everyone's bluff. It's all a matter of record what happened, it didn't sell. I believed 1995's sales figure was something like 6000 cars. Any automaker trying to make money would consider this a failure. So when we see "the best ... ever" it's all relative, Kurt

But the point was, how many *** sim players in the world are there who will buy it? I have no idea, maybe a half a million(?) which I think is generous. Out of 4.5 billion people that's nothing in the overall (business) picture. Kurt

Another way to gauge this game's popularity would be to (somehow) find out how many downloads of the original demo happened. If someone isn't going to download the game for free, why would they go pay money for the same sort of thing. In fact I think sales will be perhaps lower then downloads because a small percentage will decide they either don't like the demo at all, or get tired of it. Maybe this would be made up for by impulse purchases, but I doubt it. Kurt

How many here own Longbow II? Probably very few. How many have it and still play it? Probably even fewer. This helicopter is perhaps the best sim of it's type, but I bet sales weren't much then what GPL will be. It's the same extreme nitch market that, as much as WE love it, doesn't mean much to a company in terms of real sales. I wonder how many people buy *** mags AND buy auto sims? Not many me thinks, as compared to something like (I hate to say) Cosmo. Kind of sad when you think about it. Kurt

I might be mistaken, but I think you can't actually race the slower (G2/G3) cars in GPL. Hotlapping yes, but not racing against the AI. Don't know about online play, though. I seem to remember that Mike Lescault said something to the effect that creating additional AI info for the smaller cars would be too time consuming / expensive. You forgot the small *** creatures from Alpha Centauri. :) I'm afraid it's just the opposite way. If anything, the GPL demo taught me humility. :) But I can't see the proverbial "average gamer" investing a lot of time learning just to stay on the road. They mastered Screamer and maybe even GP2 with "opposite lock help", so they probably think they should break circuit records on their first lap out of the pits. If they can't, they'll give the sim the "suck" label. Maybe my view of the "*** masses" is a bit too cynical - I hope so, but I doubt it. BTW, great to have you back on the NG, Michael! -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

% >Try taking a look at GPL from a less-die-hard-racing-simmer point a view % >and use the GP2 or GP3 cars. % I'm afraid it's just the opposite way. If anything, the GPL demo % taught me humility. :) But I can't see the proverbial "average gamer" % investing a lot of time learning just to stay on the road. They % mastered Screamer and maybe even GP2 with "opposite lock help", so % they probably think they should break circuit records on their first % lap out of the pits. If they can't, they'll give the sim the "suck" % label. Maybe my view of the "*** masses" is a bit too cynical - I % hope so, but I doubt it. But, then again, we learned our humility trying to tackle the "cream-of-the-crop" car, the Lotus. Looking at the fastest laps, no one really seems serious about driving one of the lesser cars (which handle better). I bet you that many a long race against "human" drivers can be won by someone driving something other than a Lotus. The hot lappers may be fast, but his maybe the case of the hare and the tortoise. In other words you have to finish in order to win. Of course, I just want to look on the bright side of things at the moment. Any serious (and some semi-serious) simmer, will want this product for the pure simulation of it (besides what else will they do while they wait the eons until GP3? <G>). I think that once we start getting some decent (and varied) setups on the net for the un-mechanical to try, more people will find they can actually drive these cars. If nothing else, enough of us (and a few enough of "them") will buy this product to keep the "cycle" alive until we get NASCAR and CART built around the same engine (and the sales of the N2 1998/99 upgrade should help tide them over as well). GPL is a labor of love and not the "bread-n-butter" for Papyrus. That will be NASCAR, which will hopefully finance the CART project. % BTW, great to have you back on the NG, Michael! Good to be back (things in my un-simulated world sorta took me away momentarily -- nothing serious, but it did seem to demand most of my time). thanks! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

No. There will not be any oval track (except from Monza, there is an oval there but you _can't_ drive it because it's not modelled). -- Mika Takala >Hey,careful with that redneck stuff <g>. >I was born and bred in the eastern TN hills, love Nascar, but I will be >buying GPL the day it hits the store. >I mean, it does have at least an oval in there somewhere right? >-- >Don Burnette >Palmetto Racing >Dburn on Ten >AOLL Iroc Series Administrator >http://pages.southtech.net/palmetto/aoll.htm >snip >>Let's see.. Check out North America. Sierra Sports are enough stupid to >>KILL Grand Prix Legend by shipping Nascar Racing 1999 just 2weeks after it. >>WOW, great marketing skill <g>. The redneck gets to the store, see GPL and >>Nascar1999. Who do they choose ? heh pretty simple. >snip

I assume you've tried adjusting the Linearity slider.. the further to the right, the easier the car is to control on the straights. Also, I have to re-calibrate my wheel EVERY time I start GPL. Make sure you do, too! I had found that full-linearity (far left) was almost impossible to drive... but some of the fastest drivers I know use this setting (I had preferred to stay about 3/4 to the right). However, after giving it a real chance (at least 1/2 an hour of hell!), I slowly started to get used to it, and adjusted my grip/reactions accordingly. Full-Linearity IS harder to control on the straights, but I found it a lot faster, and more forgiving in the corners. Just to test something, I put the slider back to my previous usual position. The steering seemed the same (maybe a little more steady), but my lap times were 1.5 seconds SLOWER!!). After about 1/2 an hour, I switched the slider back to full-left, and expected to experience the impossible control feeling - was I ever surprised when I took off another 1/2 second per lap. I've been playing the GPL demo since day 1, and STILL couldn't get below 1:10 at the Glen. After playing around with the linearity the other day, I did my first sub-1:10 lap - 1:09.75!! Don't give up.. it may seem hard to control at first, but with (a fair amount of) practice, you will find the car easier to handle. doktorB http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl For the GPL track files(Watkins Glen AND Monza), FAQs (I've got them!), installation help, release date updates, PC GAMER preview pics, GPL box covers and more! ---

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>After racing a lot at Watkins Geln and Monza, I must say that even >though the game engine is terrific it won't cut it for me, unless they >add (in the release version) some kind of "reduce with speed" option. >It's just too damn hard to stay on the track, even (and stangely so) >on straightaways. I just can't imagine how it'll be possible to race >head to head in multiplayer mode while both players struggle to keep a >straight line...

> If it simply sells 100,000 copies world-wide it has earned its keep and > then some. Sad to say, I doubt GPL will break 60K units worldwide - this during the crucial period between its release and Christmas. The actual # may actually be closer to 20~30K, with after holiday sales, bargain- bins (yikes!), etc., bringing the figure close to that above. Among r.a.s.-ians, GPL will most certainly be a rousing success, but in the "real-world" a bona_fide_flop. =( I think 60K is a reasonable figure, mainly because (as the originator of this thread pointed out - at least hinted at) Joe Consumer will be presented with all the flash the various s/w companies can muster. With GPL on the shelf next to F1RS (and assuming he's an F1 fan), he may opt to plonk his hard-earned $50-bucks on something identifiable - that being on a more contemporary scale/era. Also, most of the buying-power in *** is by those of 16~25-years, and product-ID is another deciding factor in GPL's success. Shoot'em- ups, NASCAR, Rally, Jet-sims and NFS-stuff will all be competing for JC's all_mighty_buck. Sierra/Papyrus missed several coups', most notably: - leaving-out the banking at Monza (it had been in the in-house version at one time!) - the lack of pitting (OK, so it was rare for F1 in those days, but Dan Gurney didn't have a save-race feature either!) - horrible sound (they've never been able to get this right - so why not farm it out?...naw, too easy...) - inaccuracies in the models (eagle, brabham, etc.) - Global_Hype_Scaling - does it work?! Who wants to run a race you can't win?! Sheesh! The worst of the above has to be Sierra's lack of marketing_prowess, although some may point out that Cendant's woes may have been a contibuting factor - which I doubt. Questionable advertising (using the stupid "...Welcome to 1967" ads), missed opportunities at most of the historical events, and not keeping the online community a*** of developments (it was there, just too little too late, IMHO) are what killed GPL long before we got wind of it. Amazing the amount of cash that has flowed (trickled)-through the R&D channels since GPL's inception, and the lack_luster way in which Sierra shows it off. Shame on them. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love GPL, and it'll no-doubt remain on my HD for many years. Excellent online/LAN multiplay, fabulous and humbling physics, drop-dead graphics, and ooooh - those tracks!! Ahem...But let's be realistic...If this were, say "World Champion Bungie Jumping of 1981" or something dissimilar from racing, and it claimed to have the absolute_best_dog_gone_physics over any other bungie-jumping title, would we (as Joe Consumer) buy it, what with "Solar Ninja Bungie Jumper" and "Duke Bungie-II" next to it on the shelf? Me thinks not. =P Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

On that note, Byron, I have a close friend who is also an "historic" motor-racing fan, having seen the likes of Brabham & Co. racing back in the fifties/sixties (like myself!) I showed him the demo of GPL on my system and he was simply amazed....totally awestruck. He never realised that such things were possible, thinking that "computer games" were for kids and were simply shoot-em-ups. He sat down and tried the driving for 10 minutes, then another 20 minutes, then........well, he was there 2 hours later, still trying to master the thing! He is now intending to give his computer "a long-overdue upgrade" simply to be able to run GPL on it. In his own words, he may never be competitive, but to be able to "drive" a period racing car in such a realistic manner on some of the worlds greatest circuits is reason enough. This attitude, if the product is marketed and promoted in areas other than just the PC *** media, *WILL* be reflected many times over. > Also, the interested oldies will at least partially make up for a lack > of sales to the younger simmers :) > -- -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Nope. Not one that you can race on, that is. > I mean, it does have at least an oval in there somewhere right? > -- -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Anoine, I would suggest that something is amiss with your setup/calibration procedure and/or settings. I am using a joystick, zero linear input, and the steering is rock-solid in a straight line and perfectly controllable in corners. No "twitchyness" at all. > After racing a lot at Watkins Geln and Monza, I must say that even > though the game engine is terrific it won't cut it for me, unless they > add (in the release version) some kind of "reduce with speed" option. > It's just too damn hard to stay on the track, even (and stangely so) > on straightaways. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Surely more than a week :-) I hope someday I can try again That's the point : he will not say "I wasn't able to drive it", but "It's a bad game, GP2 was better... the car skids everywhere". He will blame the game, not himself. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Home-page : http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/7917 "All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain." "E tutti quei momenti andranno perduti nel tempo, come lacrime nella pioggia" Roy Batty, Blade Runner ---------------------------------------------------------------------

(snip) (un-snip) Don't worry, I've tried that a long time ago. When we talked about that matter a while ago everybody was talking about this linearity slider, but it's simply not enough. With this slider you either get a car that behaves well in curves but is uncontrollable on straights, or a car that is stable on straight lines but too hard to drive while cornering. There doesn't seem to be any "in-between" as far as I can tell. A reduce with speed slider would allow me to set up linearity so the car behaves well in curves (more linearity) while still being able to maintain good control on straights. It sure does, but the extent of this improvement is limited by the time you can put into the game. Since I don't have much spare time, and since I play many sims (thus dividing the little time I have into small bits) I don't think I'll ever be good enough to really appreciate this sim. I know some of you will, but I really believe papy should try to please as many people as they can. I don't think this option would be hard to implement, but it's up to them. A. Renault

On Sun, 27 Sep 1998 08:45:05 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >I am using a joystick, zero linear input, and the steering is rock-solid >in a straight line and perfectly controllable in corners. No >"twitchyness" at all. It's easier to use the fully non-linear position when you're using a joystick. With a wheel I think it's quite different. You have to swing the wheel from one side to another in order to do small corrections, and I find it really hard when cornering. A. Renault

Marc, what is "Global Hype Scaling"? I can't agree with you that the lack of banking at Monza, pitting facility and inaccurate models (I assume you mean the appaearance?) will have any bearing on sales. However, (and I've stated this before) lack of a "Save Game" *WILL* have a detrimental effect. Why Papyrus do not include a feature that is selectable is beyond me. The purists could choose not to have it activated: the average Joe Citizen out there *WANTS* to be able to save his game and really doesn't give a tuppenny about how it may effect the temperature of his tyres, the location of his underpants of the colour of his pressure gauge. The marketing (or lack of it) is abysmal. I've mentioned elsewhere about the effect of seeing the GPL demo had on a friend of mine. This is something that, with a little bit of common-sense on behalf of Sierras marketing department (if such a thing exists), could have been repeated thousands of times over, throughout the world.

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> Sierra/Papyrus missed several coups', most notably: > - leaving-out the banking at Monza (it had been in the in-house > version at one time!) > - the lack of pitting (OK, so it was rare for F1 in those days, but > Dan Gurney didn't have a save-race feature either!) > - horrible sound (they've never been able to get this right - so why > not farm it out?...naw, too easy...) > - inaccuracies in the models (eagle, brabham, etc.) > - Global_Hype_Scaling - does it work?! Who wants to run a race you > can't win?! Sheesh! > The worst of the above has to be Sierra's lack of marketing_prowess, > although some may point out that Cendant's woes may have been a > contibuting factor - which I doubt. Questionable advertising (using > the stupid "...Welcome to 1967" ads), missed opportunities at most of > the historical events, and not keeping the online community a*** of > developments (it was there, just too little too late, IMHO) are what > killed GPL long before we got wind of it.

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Up until a month ago I was using a T1 wheel and had no problem with that either, Antoine. I still think it's down to your setup/config. > It's easier to use the fully non-linear position when you're using a > joystick. With a wheel I think it's quite different. You have to > swing the wheel from one side to another in order to do small > corrections, and I find it really hard when cornering. > A. Renault -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Hi Marc, Nor does GPL, although it does remember the results of the last practice session. Mmmmm, well, granted it doesn't have the best of the racing sim sounds, but it's not horrible. Let's get this straight right here and now: You CAN win. But, who would want to run races that you know you're always going to win? Mike.

<snip> % I think 60K is a reasonable figure, mainly because (as the originator % of this thread pointed out - at least hinted at) Joe Consumer will be % presented with all the flash the various s/w companies can muster. % With GPL on the shelf next to F1RS (and assuming he's an F1 fan), he % may opt to plonk his hard-earned $50-bucks on something identifiable - % that being on a more contemporary scale/era. % Also, most of the buying-power in *** is by those of 16~25-years, % and product-ID is another deciding factor in GPL's success. Shoot'em- % ups, NASCAR, Rally, Jet-sims and NFS-stuff will all be competing for ^^^^^^^ That is exactly where the sales will come, for starters. % JC's all_mighty_buck. You are forgetting that there are many NASCAR Racing 2 fans out there. Which they may have been tempted to purchase based on their "loyalty" to the real sport, they KNOW a good product when they see it. Those that got hooked on the "detail" and "physics" of N2 will remember "who" released it. So when they see it on the shelves, some of them will say, "hmmmmmmmm, Sierra or Papyrus, think I'll give it a try, they did pretty good with NASCAR". Granted this won't be 100% of the N2 owners, but even a small percentage is more than a drop in the bucket. (Throw in a few ICRII fans also). I remember my first Papyrus exposure, Indianapolis 500 the Simulation released by Electronic Arts (if memory serves me well). For years I kept looking for another Papyrus Design Group simulation. Was disappointed by news that they weren't going to produce another simulation, then was thrilled to find out there would be more! I wasn't looking for more EA sims, but ones done by Papyrus Design Group. Also don't count out the Sierra-Heads! These are folks who sorta follow Sierra as a kinda cult and will order anything from them if Ken says it's hot! % Sierra/Papyrus missed several coups', most notably: % - leaving-out the banking at Monza (it had been in the in-house % version at one time!) How could this be a coup, when you are arguing the point that a "historical racing" simulation is not going to appeal to the bubble-gum chewing software buyers? Who cares about the "massive banking" of Monza, but us hard-core junkies? Very few of the F1 fans of today probably even know of it, let alone saw races on it. % - the lack of pitting (OK, so it was rare for F1 in those days, but % Dan Gurney didn't have a save-race feature either!) While not a missed coup, this one is a flaw. There was plenty of pitting in those days. While it's true it wasn't for tires and fuel, I am sure championships where won or lost by some quick fix in the pits and then a mad and daring F1 driver cutting his way back through the field. And some great races to boot! % - horrible sound (they've never been able to get this right - so why % not farm it out?...naw, too easy...) Haven't heard the "official" sound, but I am also hard pressed to find a racing sim that has sound that I am happy with. Also got to keep in mind the CPU overhead for really sophisticated sound FX. % - inaccuracies in the models (eagle, brabham, etc.) Guess I missed this discussion. . . % - Global_Hype_Scaling - does it work?! Who wants to run a race you % can't win?! Sheesh! ????????? I will admit that Sierra has always seemed to be somewhat out of the "marketing" world. But, then again they must have been doing something right all along. Again, I think some of their success came from building a cult following and thus a brand loyalty (the same goes for NASCAR the sport). % The worst of the above has to be Sierra's lack of marketing_prowess, % although some may point out that Cendant's woes may have been a % contibuting factor - which I doubt. Questionable advertising (using % the stupid "...Welcome to 1967" ads), missed opportunities at most of % the historical events, and not keeping the online community a*** of % developments (it was there, just too little too late, IMHO) are what % killed GPL long before we got wind of it. What potential buyers are we talking about here? Almost sounds like sour grapes. ;-) % Amazing the amount of cash that has flowed (trickled)-through the R&D % channels since GPL's inception, and the lack_luster way in which Sierra % shows it off. Shame on them. That's the way Sierra has always done business, why should we expect them to change now? % Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love GPL, and it'll no-doubt remain % on my HD for many years. Excellent online/LAN multiplay, fabulous % and humbling physics, drop-dead graphics, and ooooh - those tracks!! % Ahem...But let's be realistic...If this were, say "World Champion % Bungie Jumping of 1981" or something dissimilar from racing, and it % claimed to have the absolute_best_dog_gone_physics over any other % bungie-jumping title, would we (as Joe Consumer) buy it, what with % "Solar Ninja Bungie Jumper" and "Duke Bungie-II" next to it on the % shelf? Me thinks not. =P Who's to say how many of the "gamers" out there that have had a taste of car or racing arcades/sims won't take a look at GPL. Don't forget they seem to have more expendable cash to "throw away" than most of us. For many of them it's just an impulse buy anyway. If they have powerful enough machines (and many of them do), hell they'll buy and play with it for a weekend and be happy (though maybe frustrated). They may even get a little more "play time" out of it than they did some of the other shoddy games they bought in the past. To paraphrase Bob Dylan, "Started out on mother's milk, and soon moved on to the harder stuff." There are alot of things involved in marketing, other than the "typical" things we usually think of. Some of these "other" things Sierra has done well. Alot better than many software houses I can think of.... [just had to climb up on the soapbox to prove that I am back! <G>] -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% After racing a lot at Watkins Geln and Monza, I must say that even % though the game engine is terrific it won't cut it for me, unless they % add (in the release version) some kind of "reduce with speed" option. % It's just too damn hard to stay on the track, even (and stangely so) % on straightaways. I just can't imagine how it'll be possible to race % head to head in multiplayer mode while both players struggle to keep a % straight line... I think that Papyrus has been cooped up way to long while they pursue their alchemists' quest. They should take a look at some of the other products and at least realize that there is a "need" to allow the end-user (those who pay their paychecks) some means of making the "program" comfortable and enjoyable. I am impressed with the EA's Need For Speed III's controller adjustments. They even have a "dead-zone" adjuster, and guess what, it works! This is even a better alternative than a reduce with speed (in my opinion). All I want is to be able to leave my hands fairly quite on the wheel and not have to worry that breathing will make my car suddenly veer to the right or left and turn into a drunken sailor. (There are some other features in NFSIII that I see borrowed from other sims and games.) So Papy, next time take some time out and "humble" yourselves, a feature here or there that makes the program easier to use and more enjoyable isn't gone to tarnish the fine "gold" you are producing from baser metals. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

...and then remark: "why then doesn't GPL run (that well) without a 3D accellerator?" Technology steps forward, but my comments were on the "average-Joe", who most likely hasn't kept up with the latest and greatest, and if he had, then there's a real GOOD chance he got stuck with a lesser_quality card (S3 or something). This is Joe Consumer's fault (not Sierra's) though. Contrary to what some people may think, the *average* Joe Consumer is still in the stone_age in as far as technology. GPL won't push him to upgrade - unless he's been bit by the sim-bug (as I and many of here had, at one time or another<g>). Exactly. It *was* in, it never needed to be driven on. Including the banking would have left the sim-door ajar to other "hitorical" add-ons, or whatever - at least it would have been something to brag about: 100% track accuracy. Simply grouped it with the others. ;) Loyalty only goes so far...Then, back to the shop it goes. $50-bucks may not be much to those of us who've scrape_n_save until the day GPL's release, but others may want to re-invest their cash into something other than a coffee coaster. GPL is worthy of greater things, IMHO. Sour grapes? I could care_less that I wasn't part of the "GPL inside group", but I was hardly lacking in the going-ons of its progress. I would have certainly enjoyed seeing it as time went, but was referring to realeased info...Not sure what you were getting at, though. I didn't expect anything, just making an observation on what *I know*. Of course!...I'm not merely grasping at straws, nor do I have "sour grapes" or an axe to grind. I'm speaking of GPL specifically, and the amount of time/effort of the Papyrus crew vs. Sierra's ho-hum way of promoting their efforts to the hilt! Again, knowing what I know... Certainly glad to see you here too, my friend! =) Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

> Hi Marc, > Nor does GPL, although it does remember the results of the last practice > session. As others have pointed out, the lack of this feature will come back to haunt them, as did the lack of said item in N2. It was a lot of very unhappy die_in_the_wool sim racers that helped get that fixed. Maybe lightning will strike twice - we'll see... Yes, it's horrible. Some good samples were available, and other good opportunities were handed to Papyrus, but they dropped the ball (for reasons I'm not privy). You and I might not. But being able to (easily) reset the GHS (like the save-race) will come back to haunt Papyrus. Great idea, but lacks the switch to shut it off. Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

> Marc, what is "Global Hype Scaling"? Basically, the ability of the AI to "learn" your abilities as a driver, and adjust their AI-strategy to be competitive. They won't jump right into your times right away, but will eventually get faster, smarter, and more aggressive. Information is based in percentages, and differs from (AI) driver to (AI) driver. All part of the mix...More indirectly than anything else. The guys at Papyrus are more_or_less purists, that's a major reason it's not in. On the other hand, they've got this great feature of being able to raise the driver's arm... ...such as the historical events here, and around the world. Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

No, it's easy to shut off or reset. Cheers! John

Quake2 and Unreal both sold like hot cakes despite looking hellish sans 3D acceleration. It's not a fair comment to level IMO. No track is 100% accurate, and I hardly think the inclusion or otherwise of the banking at Monza is going to make a whit of difference to Joe Public. I'd be amazed if he even knew there ever was a banking at Monza. The sim or historical fans may have gone for it, but we've established already that there will be plenty to appeal to them/us. Cheers! John

% As others have pointed out, the lack of this feature will come back to % haunt them, as did the lack of said item in N2. It was a lot of very % unhappy die_in_the_wool sim racers that helped get that fixed. Maybe % lightning will strike twice - we'll see... Here we can totally agree! Fine, let Papyrus be "purists" and build the finest driving simulation engine for home use. But for Pete's sake (or for Marc's & mine at least), don't hobble it by leaving out features that will allow the home user to totally ENJOY the experience. I for one have always wanted to run full length races (after running 25%-50% to get the "rookie" period out of the way). This is really going to make it tough for me to thoroughly enjoy their excellent sim engine. I would like to assume that a "save-game" feature was left out for the same reasons it didn't make the release of N2 (partially puritanical and implementation reasons). I also would like to see Papyrus listen to their paying customers and release a patch that will allow us to fully enjoy their excellent simulation. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Quake2 and Unreal both sold like hot cakes despite looking hellish > sans 3D acceleration. It's not a fair comment to level IMO. Why not?...Q2 and Unreal appeal (sorry<g>) to a larger audience, not to mention that these games don't rely as heavily on precise actions_to_ framerate. Easier to overlook bad fps in a shoot_em_up than a driving sim. True, but one step closer to te mark. More of a nit-pick I suppose. ;) Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Marc J. Nelson wrote <snipped good pos> You forgot something Marc... - Stupid decision to make competition against THEMSELVES in the US, by having 2 products (Nascar Racing 1999 and GPL) at the same time out. Like I said those "rednecks" (sorry for that word but it summarize the stock-car racing fans there... I mean the majority) won't even look at the back of the GPL box, the wheels are "out" of the car chassis ;-D Sierra Sports vs. Papyrus thingy ? :'-( - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> - Stupid decision to make competition against THEMSELVES in the US, Not really. By all accounts, having two sims out is a good thing for Papyrus, as it blankets a wider audience who may purchase the "other" title. Some of the R&D from one would have no-doubt drifted to the other while in development, saving a few bucks along the way. Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

By GUI or is it necessary to edit a file? > No, it's easy to shut off or reset. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Marc, I think that outright sales of GPL may not be the point. This seems likely to have been an R&D project as well for the next generation NASCAR engine. When Papy starts selling a NASCAR game based on this physics engine, they will be laughing all the way to the bank. Clark

>Marc, >I think that outright sales of GPL may not be the point. This seems >likely to have been an R&D project as well for the next generation >NASCAR engine. When Papy starts selling a NASCAR game based on this >physics engine, they will be laughing all the way to the bank. Maybe Papy have discovered that there is a world outside USA that don't care too much about NASCAR racing. Personally I think GPL is great, but i don't think I will buy a NASCAR simulator. -Jan Otto

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> > Quake2 and Unreal both sold like hot cakes despite looking hellish > > sans 3D acceleration. It's not a fair comment to level IMO. > Why not?...Q2 and Unreal appeal (sorry<g>) to a larger audience, not to > mention that these games don't rely as heavily on precise actions_to_ > framerate. Easier to overlook bad fps in a shoot_em_up than a driving > sim.

Try to tell that someone with bad fps in Q2 DM, being gibbed without shooting once yourself is not funny... ;^) l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

You have 2 major problems here. 1/ limited time and 2/ Playing many sims. You are simply kidding yourself if you think you will get good at GPL by dividing your limited time by using other sims. It's obviously the habbits you have formed in these other sims that make you think GPL is wrong. And the demo tracks are easy! Wait till Spa and the Ring get a hold of you! You'll be throwing your 'puter out the window for sure, hehehehehehe. Why waste your time on other sims? Get GPL, do 2-3 hour sessions at a time and enjoy. Being able to pilot these things well takes time and is EXTREMELY rewarding! PS - I drive the Lotus with full non linearity as I have explained to you before and am right there with the best in the world. But being this fast only comes with a LOT of hours of practice, just like any other sport! GPL is faultless IMO.

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> It sure does, but the extent of this improvement is limited by the > time you can put into the game. Since I don't have much spare time, > and since I play many sims (thus dividing the little time I have into > small bits) I don't think I'll ever be good enough to really > appreciate this sim. I know some of you will, but I really believe > papy should try to please as many people as they can. I don't think > this option would be hard to implement, but it's up to them. > A. Renault

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Yep, I'll bet it's to do with his Win95 calibration selection or something. Or just that he uses many other sims and fiddles a lot. He needs to decide on one thing and stick with it.

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> Up until a month ago I was using a T1 wheel and had no problem with that > either, Antoine. > I still think it's down to your setup/config. > > It's easier to use the fully non-linear position when you're using a > > joystick. With a wheel I think it's quite different. You have to > > swing the wheel from one side to another in order to do small > > corrections, and I find it really hard when cornering. > > A. Renault > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ---------- > The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Here we disagree. Framerate is primarily important to the purists, and there are many more ***s of Quake and Unreal than of racing sims. No problem with a nit-pick, as long at is isn't used to construct a "Joe Public" argument. I personally would have loved to see Monza banking, but I know that a very small percentage would have cared and it wouldn't have justified the time it took. Plus, given that the banking may be torn down soon, there could be a licensing issue with Monza not wanting to publicise it, who knows? Still, gives TSP a target... :-) Cheers! John

On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:30:49 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >By GUI or is it necessary to edit a file? Both. Cheers! John

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>> However, (and I've stated this before) lack of a "Save Game" *WILL* have >> a detrimental effect. Why Papyrus do not include a feature that is >> selectable is beyond me. The purists could choose not to have it >> activated: the average Joe Citizen out there *WANTS* to be able to save >> his game and really doesn't give a tuppenny about how it may effect the >> temperature of his tyres, the location of his underpants of the colour >> of his pressure gauge.

Hi Marc, The save game feature isn't implemented mostly due to the incredible amount of dynamic data constantly on the move at 300 times per second. I'm not if it was originally planned or not (doubtful since it proved difficult with the much simpler N2). Restoring each cars positional data is easy - restoring precisely their AI short term and longer term "goals", suspension positions, trajectories in 3d space, is a nightmare you can only dream about. FWIW, I don't remember anybody on the test team lobbying strongly for a save game feature. I guess we could have done, but instead chose to hammer home to Papyrus just how important the internet aspect of *** is. We probably wouldn't have either if it weren't due to the test team and the dedication/overtime of a couple of the engineers. At least we have internet play. If you would have been willing to wait until April, perhaps a save game feature would have been incorporated. Personally, I don't think it's all that important. I'd just like to add that when the new CART sim is developed, if I'm on the test team for that (unknown due to personal reasons), I won't be lobbying for a save game feature for that either. I'll be concentrating on the physics and AI again, since these are the areas of a sim that are most important to me. Each to his own, I guess. Mike.

> Try to tell that someone with bad fps in Q2 DM, being gibbed without > shooting > once yourself is not funny... ;^) Ah, but two with bad fps can sort-of sort things through, where one will ultimately become the victor...On the other hand, two with bad fps in a driving sim may not ever finish...Those walls are mighty hard! =P Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Matters little that N3 (or whatever) uses the GPL engine...ANYTHING that Papyrus creates with the words "NASCAR" on the box will sell like hotcakes. It's their cash-cow. Cheers! Marc > I think that outright sales of GPL may not be the point. This seems > likely to have been an R&D project as well for the next generation > NASCAR engine. When Papy starts selling a NASCAR game based on this > physics engine, they will be laughing all the way to the bank. -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Hi Mike, FWIW, I'm not the one who wrote the snippet you responded to, although I aggree with what was said. I also feel that if it came down to the two you indicate, save-game vs. realistic physics, that I would opt for Papyrus to concentrate on the latter (Bruce!<g>). However, the save-game need not place each driver in their respective places as before, rather simply a save-race via "red-flag"...all cars back to the line! Cheers! Marc

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> Hi Marc, > The save game feature isn't implemented mostly due to the incredible amount > of dynamic data constantly on the move at 300 times per second. I'm not if > it was originally planned or not (doubtful since it proved difficult with > the much simpler N2). Restoring each cars positional data is easy - > restoring precisely their AI short term and longer term "goals", suspension > positions, trajectories in 3d space, is a nightmare you can only dream > about. FWIW, I don't remember anybody on the test team lobbying strongly > for a save game feature. I guess we could have done, but instead chose to > hammer home to Papyrus just how important the internet aspect of *** is. > We probably wouldn't have either if it weren't due to the test team and the > dedication/overtime of a couple of the engineers. At least we have internet > play. If you would have been willing to wait until April, perhaps a save > game feature would have been incorporated. Personally, I don't think it's > all that important. I'd just like to add that when the new CART sim is > developed, if I'm on the test team for that (unknown due to personal > reasons), I won't be lobbying for a save game feature for that either. I'll > be concentrating on the physics and AI again, since these are the areas of a > sim that are most important to me. Each to his own, I guess.

-- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

I stand corrected. Thanks John. > >By GUI or is it necessary to edit a file? > Both. Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

> Still, gives TSP a target... :-) Ready...Aim...Stop moving about, John! ;) Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

> But after Can-Am please <g> Can you imagine the lead-foots in a Porsche 917/30... =P -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

John Wallace wrote Actually, I know for facts that 2 person are presently hard working on it. They have accurate map details with specification for it. Many photos from incar and also showing the graphics they would have to do. Those 2 person are well known as creators of some important utilities but they aren't BB&B people. Im about sure somebody will be able to make one, someday... track editing is easier in each simulator from Papyrus, since it's mostly the same track editing base for each product... so the knowledge is there... just cross your fingers ! (it would actually be a full loop course around the circuit, with a wall all along the frontstrech). - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Personally I don't really mind what kind of racing they simulate. They've always done a stunning job in my eyes, and I've easily had a year of enjoyment from their every title before the next arrives. I'll buy any of there simulations without hesitation. The thought of a Nascar and an Indycar with this physics engine is just soooo appealing! Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

Todd Dry wrote If it was a 1967 F1 sim you wouldn't race at Rouen... *plonk* ;-) - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Not only that, but you'll have people like me, and all the rest of us ***s, who will buy BOTH. And of course, the point you made with the general audience just buying one because it looks cool. However though, I am a little forced to agree with Francois (Oh my God, I agree with someone? And Francois of all people. *g* Just kidding.) about the stock car fan philosphy where you'll have people out there who say, "Well, this is NASCAR and I'm gonna buy it, the other one just sucks.", when really though, they are missing out on a really good preview of the technology that will be used in NASCAR 3. But oh well, Papyrus always seems to do alright in the end. And fortunately, there are people in this world who are fans of stock cars and open wheels both. -- Travis Kallner mknight98 on TEN GO MATT KENSETH #17 & THE BURTON BROTHERS #22 & #99!!!

>cash flowing into the coffers before the major money spinner, NASCAR 3/2000 >is released. GPL doesn't have to make a "profit" to be considered a >commercial success. Aha! You see the light!! <g> (even if NASCAR isn't my particular cup of tea) Mike.

>FWIW, I'm not the one who wrote the snippet you responded to, although >I aggree with what was said. I also feel that if it came down to the >two you indicate, save-game vs. realistic physics, that I would opt for >Papyrus to concentrate on the latter (Bruce!<g>). Yeah, physics, you bet. :-) Hmmmm, don't like it! Mike.

Roger, over and out! :o)

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> On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 07:30:49 +1000, Bruce Kennewell > >By GUI or is it necessary to edit a file? > Both. > Cheers! > John

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

This is where Papyrus have failed badly. Whilst the dedicated, enthusiastic hard-core "test team" member considers internet *** to be extremely desirable, Papyrus have overlooked a very, very important fact: the vast bulk of the software-buying Joe Publics DO NOT GAME ON THE INTERNET!!! It is *these* people who will economically make or break a product. It is *these* people who ask the storekeeper "Can I save my game?" It is *these* people who put the box back on the shelf when told "Sorry, but no!" and then look for something else. Believe me, I have seen this happen every day. It's all very well for a company to be guided by the responses, requests and comments from a team of enthusiasts. Such input is extremely important. But it is also important to gauge the market place: they ***ed it up with the initial release of NASCAR 2 and they are going to lose customers now with GPL. Now I don't give a toss about how difficult it is to retain accuracy and physics and whether Mars is in conjunction with Uranus.......a SAVE facility should have been developed. > FWIW, I don't remember anybody on the test team lobbying strongly > for a save game feature. I guess we could have done, but instead chose to > hammer home to Papyrus just how important the internet aspect of *** is. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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>No problem with a nit-pick, as long at is isn't used to construct a >"Joe Public" argument. I personally would have loved to see Monza >banking, but I know that a very small percentage would have cared and >it wouldn't have justified the time it took. Plus, given that the >banking may be torn down soon, there could be a licensing issue with >Monza not wanting to publicise it, who knows? >Still, gives TSP a target... :-) >Cheers! >John

If there were Monza banking then it wouldn't be a 1967 F1 sim would it?

And, Monza is a little dull and this may spruce it up a little. Dull in comparison to most other tracks anyway. It will be much used for casual online racing however and probably the best starting point for most people.

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> Todd Dry wrote > >If there were Monza banking then it wouldn't be a 1967 F1 sim would it? > If it was a 1967 F1 sim you wouldn't race at Rouen... > *plonk* ;-) > - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! > - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) > - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS > - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

I would much prefer to see a save game function that saves all the intervals between the cars at the time and then restarts like a rally ie cars are held at the line and take off at a set time. I think the player should be able to pause, select save, and then when the lead car completes that lap, the game begines to save intervals. As the player crosses the S/F line, the game goes to accelerated time to finish that lap for the rest of the AI and there's your saved game. I see no reason for current AI behaviors to be saved because the game can simply update them when the racesave resumes. Come to think of it, if tyre wear/temps, fuel load, engine wear, etc were also saved, then I think the best solution would be to have the last part of the players lap saved so that when you resume from the racesave, the players car is on auto pilot for about, say, 200 metres from the S/F line and as soon as it crosses the S/F line the player is once again in control, much like GP2 same machine multi. Same deal for the computer cars.

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> Hi Mike, > FWIW, I'm not the one who wrote the snippet you responded to, although > I aggree with what was said. I also feel that if it came down to the > two you indicate, save-game vs. realistic physics, that I would opt for > Papyrus to concentrate on the latter (Bruce!<g>). > However, the save-game need not place each driver in their respective > places as before, rather simply a save-race via "red-flag"...all cars > back to the line! > Cheers! > Marc > > Hi Marc, > > The save game feature isn't implemented mostly due to the incredible amount > > of dynamic data constantly on the move at 300 times per second. I'm not if > > it was originally planned or not (doubtful since it proved difficult with > > the much simpler N2). Restoring each cars positional data is easy - > > restoring precisely their AI short term and longer term "goals", suspension > > positions, trajectories in 3d space, is a nightmare you can only dream > > about. FWIW, I don't remember anybody on the test team lobbying strongly > > for a save game feature. I guess we could have done, but instead chose to > > hammer home to Papyrus just how important the internet aspect of *** is. > > We probably wouldn't have either if it weren't due to the test team and the > > dedication/overtime of a couple of the engineers. At least we have internet > > play. If you would have been willing to wait until April, perhaps a save > > game feature would have been incorporated. Personally, I don't think it's > > all that important. I'd just like to add that when the new CART sim is > > developed, if I'm on the test team for that (unknown due to personal > > reasons), I won't be lobbying for a save game feature for that either. I'll > > be concentrating on the physics and AI again, since these are the areas of a > > sim that are most important to me. Each to his own, I guess. > -- > Marc J. Nelson > The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ > Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ > * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Most importantly, the NASCAR ***s will miss their chance to unwind on the clockwise tracks of GPL! :) Not that this physics engine is wasted on any sim, but I can't imagine how much you'd be missing out by only experiencing it in a sim based on ovals!

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> Not only that, but you'll have people like me, and all the rest of us > ***s, who will buy BOTH. And of course, the point you made with the > general audience just buying one because it looks cool. However though, I > am a little forced to agree with Francois (Oh my God, I agree with someone? > And Francois of all people. *g* Just kidding.) about the stock car fan > philosphy where you'll have people out there who say, "Well, this is > NASCAR and I'm gonna buy it, the other one just sucks.", when really > though, they are missing out on a really good preview of the technology > that will be used in NASCAR 3. But oh well, Papyrus always seems to do > alright in the end. And fortunately, there are people in this world who are > fans of stock cars and open wheels both. > -- > Travis Kallner > mknight98 on TEN > GO MATT KENSETH #17 & THE BURTON BROTHERS #22 & #99!!!

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

>If there were Monza banking then it wouldn't be a 1967 F1 sim would it? Of course it would, the banking was there in 1967 and still is today. Cheers! John

Byron, you are missing the point entirely: the average buyer of racing sims doesn't give a damn about any of the quasi-techo gibberish that has to be taken into account with a "SAVE"!! He wouldn't give a flying fenangle if the cars all restarted line astern in the pits....just so long as the race positions were saved and there were X laps to the end of the race! > I would much prefer to see a save game function that saves all the intervals between the > cars at the time and then restarts like a rally ie cars are held at the line and take off................ etecetera -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

This is quite a disapointment. I much rather do full length races at a single sitting when I can. I don't go in for much for free practice sessions or hotlaps etc. The race is the thing as far as my enjoyment goes. I like the fatigue factors that start to set in after an hour or so. The slightly blurry eyes, the mind wandering a little ( or a lot ), etc. The problem is that these days I rarely have the time to do a full lenght race in one go. I don't like to break a race up but that's just the way it is. I feel its a real pity if I can't save a game when I need to. Else I'll be restricted to only about one full length race a fortnight or so. Rats ! I wouldn't care if it took 5mbs and 5 mins to do a save. I rather have one than not. Phillip McNelley

However, GPL is aimed much more at the sim market than the gamer (whether folks like that or not is irrelevant). Mike. >Byron, you are missing the point entirely: the average buyer of racing >sims doesn't give a damn about any of the quasi-techo gibberish that has >to be taken into account with a "SAVE"!! >He wouldn't give a flying fenangle if the cars all restarted line astern >in the pits....just so long as the race positions were saved and there >were X laps to the end of the race!

> Hmmmm, don't like it! As the ol' saying goes...better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it. =P Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

> However, GPL is aimed much more at the sim market than the gamer (whether > folks like that or not is irrelevant). However, GPL will be purchased more by the general/gamer market, rather than the dye_in_the_wool sim-heads (whether the folks at Papyrus realize that is irrelevant). ;) Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

A long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, I sat in a meeting with some (Sierra/Cendant) business/marketing/sales folks and asked them the following: "We know damn well exactly what channel a large number of computer-owning NASCAR fans that have never even heard of Papyrus are watching on a Sunday afternoon. Why don't we advertise to them?" The response was that they'd rather spend the money and buy more end-caps and windows in computer game stores. My point is that not everyone who loves NASCAR and has a capable computer GOES INTO a computer game store so you can buy ALL THE DAMN END-CAPS YOU WANT AND STILL LOSE THAT SALE... That seemed to be lost on some... :-) Granted, TV time is very expensive, and hard to justify for the "less well known" Papy products. But, Papy's still alive and kicking strongly, so they're doing something right I guess... ---Jim

On the contrary; I think it matters a TON. Sure, you could probably sell NASCAR-labelled dog-***as fast as you could box it up and ship it, but NASCAR with the GPL engine will be unbelievably enjoyable to the hacks and the purists, IMO. I mean, how many of us have watched our favorite redneck friend sit down with N2, showed them how to spin the tires and watched them do that for 10 minutes on end? Now, make that wheel spin realistic, and leave donut marks, and you've got a winner right there. Nevermind that there's a whole bunch of tracks included... :-) Then, the purists can have fun sliding the cars off turn four at Martinsville, etc... As tricky as the GPL cars are, the NASCAR vehicle parameters WILL make the game more accessible to Joe Six-Pack. Granted, if he wouldn't have bought N1 or N2, he probably won't buy N3. But if he does buy it and has the machine to run it, I betcha it stays bought. :-) ---Jim

Man, you guys must really be bent on having a save game feature. I don't really see the point of it myself. Why would you want to save a race in the middle and come back to it later. Wouldn't it be better to just run a shorter race? Clark

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>> However, GPL is aimed much more at the sim market than the gamer (whether >> folks like that or not is irrelevant). >However, GPL will be purchased more by the general/gamer market, rather >than the dye_in_the_wool sim-heads (whether the folks at Papyrus realize >that is irrelevant). ;) >Cheers! >Marc >-- >Marc J. Nelson >The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ >Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ >* Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Jim Sokoloff Or show them to do an 180 on the start, head on the opposite way of the traffic and create giant crashes at Talladega on the backstrech... Im just already drooling about seeing that in Nascar Racing 3 compared to N2... Or a power-slide out of T3a at Sears Point ! - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

No enduro's for starters! Also, things can happen where simply being able to pause is no good ie you need to stop and leave the computer for hours. Come to think of it, if no racesave, then why a pause feature? Not very sim like, is it! I personally see the lack of a racesave as lazy on Papy's part. It could be something that is simply noted in race results, etc.

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> Man, you guys must really be bent on having a save game feature. I > don't really see the point of it myself. Why would you want to save a > race in the middle and come back to it later. Wouldn't it be better > to just run a shorter race? > Clark > >> However, GPL is aimed much more at the sim market than the gamer (whether > >> folks like that or not is irrelevant). > >However, GPL will be purchased more by the general/gamer market, rather > >than the dye_in_the_wool sim-heads (whether the folks at Papyrus realize > >that is irrelevant). ;) > >Cheers! > >Marc > >-- > >Marc J. Nelson > >The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ > >Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ > >* Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

I'm not missing any point at all Bruce. In fact, I think that if a racesave is not done so as too maintain intervals as at the time of save then it is virtually a waste of time. The only real use for the racesave in ICR2, IMO, was for Enduros. The idea of actually using it for my own personal use makes me laugh. eg I build up a 10 sec lead in a race with 10 laps to go. I save it. When I resume, I make a mistake for whatever reason and finish 8 sec behind 1st. Get the idea? If your gunna do a racesave in a crude save system as you suggest would be adequate, then you are going to be cheating either the AI or yourself. Same old story Bruce - If your gunna do it, do it properly!

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> Byron, you are missing the point entirely: the average buyer of racing > sims doesn't give a damn about any of the quasi-techo gibberish that has > to be taken into account with a "SAVE"!! > He wouldn't give a flying fenangle if the cars all restarted line astern > in the pits....just so long as the race positions were saved and there > were X laps to the end of the race! > > I would much prefer to see a save game function that saves all the intervals between the > > cars at the time and then restarts like a rally ie cars are held at the line and take off................ > etecetera > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ---------- > The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

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>No enduro's for starters! Also, things can happen where simply being able to > pause is >no good ie you need to stop and leave the computer for hours. Come to think of > it, if no >racesave, then why a pause feature? Not very sim like, is it! > I personally see the lack of a racesave as lazy on Papy's part. It could be > something >that is simply noted in race results, etc. >> Man, you guys must really be bent on having a save game feature. I >> don't really see the point of it myself. Why would you want to save a >> race in the middle and come back to it later. Wouldn't it be better >> to just run a shorter race?

Save game is a glaring admission from the title, as is lack of weather. I'm not talking about wet weather here either- Changeable weather is the minium. Z.

Aye, it's a lovely old cliche, but not too apposite when you consider that including a save may well have impacted heavily on what is already in there. Without knowing what we would have lost I think we can't state the above with any degree of confidence. Cheers! John

Mmm, and since when can you save NFS3 in mid-race? Let's keep things in perspective here. Long races are run with full damage - any casual gamer who picks up GPL and needs a save function within the three corners he will last must have a VERY short attention span. It's not going to happen. People are going to use the Novice, Inter and eventually Pro levels, and races at all of those levels can be completed within a reasonable length of time, certainly not long enough to require a save. Cheers! John

% >However, GPL will be purchased more by the general/gamer market, rather % >than the dye_in_the_wool sim-heads (whether the folks at Papyrus realize % >that is irrelevant). ;) % Mmm, and since when can you save NFS3 in mid-race? If I need a save-game feature for a 4-8 lap race, then I indeed have no life. But, then again if I am "racing NFS3, I guess I don't have one! <VBG> ;-) etc. % Let's keep things in perspective here. Long races are run with full % damage - any casual gamer who picks up GPL and needs a save function % within the three corners he will last must have a VERY short attention % span. It's not going to happen. % People are going to use the Novice, Inter and eventually Pro levels, % and races at all of those levels can be completed within a reasonable % length of time, certainly not long enough to require a save. I don't quite understand the need to defend Papyrus for not putting in a "save-race" feature. The only grounds for which they can be defended is that it was too difficult to do within the amount of development time to get the product released. Any other arguments are purely immaterial. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Wed, 30 Sep 1998 17:20:29 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >If I need a save-game feature for a 4-8 lap race, then I indeed have no >life. But, then again if I am "racing NFS3, I guess I don't have one! ><VBG> ;-) etc. True - and you're going to be running 4-8 lap races in GPL also, at least until you get good. No save should not scare off the casual gamer. When you get to longer races that is a different issue, and that is when the subjects come up of (a) development time to implement a feature that will be relevant only to a small percentage of the market, and (b) one that for many detracts from the sim in that it is supposed to give you an insight into being a driver of a real car in as many ways as it can. I don't know the reason behind Papy's decision and I suspect it was more technical as Mike pointed out than commercial or atmosphere related as I described above, but I know it would have been agonised over before a decision was made. I was only pointing out that casual gamers needn't panic as marc was describing. Cheers! John

> But the point was, how many *** sim players in the world are > there who will buy it? I have no idea, maybe a half a million(?) > which I think is generous. Out of 4.5 billion people that's nothing > in the overall (business) picture. Half a million retail (non-bundled) sales makes for a LARGE (and quite profitable) hit though... :-) ---Jim

>And, Monza is a little dull and this may spruce it up a little. Dull in comparison to >most other tracks anyway. It will be much used for casual online racing however and >probably the best starting point for most people. Well, I've only seen the Glen and Monza so far. I think you're right about Monza being a good starting point, but possibly something with a few more corners will help more? Once you've invested enough time the car control soon comes and with it the real enjoyment of this sim. I didn't think much of Monza on my first few drives, and learnt my lessons on the Glen, but now I have that vital degree of car control (only a 1:34 at Monza so far though - long way to go I know) Monza is sooooooo much more interesting. Whilst I like the authenticity of showing your lap time a lap later, it's quite annoying at the same time knowing I've just done a good lap ("Only a 1:35?! You have GOT to be kidding!") but have another to go before I learn whether or not it was the case. Not a criticism by any means, but it sure confused the hell out of me initially. Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

> Perhaps enduros are not totally ruled out though. There is no reason > that you couldn't run several "stages" through the internet > (multiplayer!!!) with cumulative gaps added up through the stages. ...in anticipation of Pro Sports Car, where you CAN switch drivers...not sure what they meant - whether on_the_fly, or via race_save - but does sound mightly cool! =) Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

Byron, I know that it rules out enduro's, but the problem is that with simulated endurance races, the cars are not being tested like in a real race. Back when my fellow drivers and I won the first Enduro 24 at Road America (ICR2), it was really pretty neat to do, but since the sim was set with random breakdowns off, it was just a matter of the drivers not making too big of a mistake. I'm not sure I'd even want to race in a sim enduro where the car could just 'break down'. Perhaps enduros are not totally ruled out though. There is no reason that you couldn't run several "stages" through the internet (multiplayer!!!) with cumulative gaps added up through the stages. What's the real difference between doing this or mailing race saves? Well, the one thing I see is that e-mail/ICQ file transfers are gone, and the possibility of save game files being corrupted is gone. Just some thoughts, Clark A (ace29 on TEN)

% True - and you're going to be running 4-8 lap races in GPL also, at % least until you get good. No save should not scare off the casual % gamer. % When you get to longer races that is a different issue, and that is % when the subjects come up of (a) development time to implement a % feature that will be relevant only to a small percentage of the % market, and (b) one that for many detracts from the sim in that it is % supposed to give you an insight into being a driver of a real car in % as many ways as it can. We can stretch this argument until it gets thin. Restarting a race event because one crashed out on lap 32, isn't very realistic either. Maybe a real sim should only allow one to race one event just once a year in real time. You***up your one and only chance to win the American Grand Prix and you'll have to wait until next year in "real time" (and hope you still have a ride. <G>). % I don't know the reason behind Papy's decision and I suspect it was % more technical as Mike pointed out than commercial or atmosphere % related as I described above, but I know it would have been agonised % over before a decision was made. I was only pointing out that casual % gamers needn't panic as marc was describing. Actually the casual gamer ain't gonna panic much at all. It's the more hard core freaks that "need" a full length race and rely on a saverace feature to accommodate their real lives. To be perfectly honest, I don't think there are many even here in r.a.s. land that run full length NASCAR events in N2. Most run 25-50% races (or even less). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I just picked up the REAL game from EB. Using them as a gauge of what the "real world" thinks the expected sales would be, I asked the sales clerk how many copies of GPL he got in. Two. And I have one... Kurt

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> > But the point was, how many *** sim players in the world are > > there who will buy it? I have no idea, maybe a half a million(?) > > which I think is generous. Out of 4.5 billion people that's nothing > > in the overall (business) picture. > Half a million retail (non-bundled) sales makes for a LARGE (and quite > profitable) hit though... :-) > ---Jim

You familiar with MIRacing Enduros Richard? 2/3/4 hour stints!? I'm talking about a way to do driver transfers ie transfer racesaves between drivers in a Nurburgring 24 Hour for example.

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> >No enduro's for starters! > But there again, it's not endurance if you can just save the race whenever > you get a little tired.... ;-) > Cheers, > Richard > -- > We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions > whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

> Perhaps enduros are not totally ruled out though. There is no reason > that you couldn't run several "stages" through the internet > (multiplayer!!!) with cumulative gaps added up through the stages. > What's the real difference between doing this or mailing race saves? > Well, the one thing I see is that e-mail/ICQ file transfers are gone, > and the possibility of save game files being corrupted is gone. Yes, but in my experience so far in the distant land of Aus, not only are pings an issue but simply being able to hold a connection is often difficult. I had a multi race recently with someone in Cali with a cable modem with a few dropouts in fact. Maybe that would change with a different ISP and/or if I also had a cable modem or at least a 56.6 instead of my aging 33.6 :) I don't wanna get to hour 24 in the lead of the A1 Ring 24 and get cut off :((((((( LOL. -- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 01:15:14 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >We can stretch this argument until it gets thin. Restarting a race event >because one crashed out on lap 32, isn't very realistic either. Perhaps you can stretch the argument until it gets thin but I prefer to do so only while it remains realistic. I don't see where you get the "not very realistic" - I'm not sure where you managed to buy your real-life car with the save race function and Shift-R but I must confess to never having seen one. I used to go home, fix my car, then go back to the racetrack and try again. If you are talking about an accurate _sim_ then that would be your only option for accuracy. Anything less is a compromise, and that is what we are discussing - degrees of compromise. I would guess so, hence my response to Marc re the casual gamers (what is a casual gamer anyway, someone lying back in an easy chair wearing jeans and with a beer in hand?). Cheers! John

Well...............I ordered it from Electronics boutique yesterday and was told it would be shipped last night or today. Well I checked last night and it's back ordered ! I would venture to say every simmer and some non-simmers in the USA bought it and there's more simmers than we even imagined ! Tim A. Deatherage "Admitted Sim ***" >I just picked up the REAL game from EB. Using them as a gauge of what the >"real world" thinks the expected sales would be, I asked the sales clerk >how many copies of GPL he got in. >Two. >And I have one... >Kurt

Michael, I'm a busy 44 year CPA and I consider myself a hard core simmer (I'm on Kali and Mplayer for Burnout, but I haven't had time to sign upon ten for NROS !) and I run 5.00% races ! it's short and fun ! Tim A. Deatherage "Admitted Sim ***" >Actually the casual gamer ain't gonna panic much at all. It's the more hard core freaks that "need" a full length race and rely on a saverace

% On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 01:15:14 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" % >We can stretch this argument until it gets thin. Restarting a race event % >because one crashed out on lap 32, isn't very realistic either. % Perhaps you can stretch the argument until it gets thin but I prefer % to do so only while it remains realistic. I don't see where you get % the "not very realistic" - I'm not sure where you managed to buy your % real-life car with the save race function and Shift-R but I must % confess to never having seen one. I used to go home, fix my car, then % go back to the racetrack and try again. Well, my point is who the hell makes the "decision" when to cross the barrier between a "realistic" simulation and an "enjoyable" simulation? The "big" argument against a racesave feature being bandied about here, is that it would be "unrealistic". Having a racesave feature (if one could be implemented -- still think this is more the real reason behind GPL not having one -- at least within the resources Papy wished to spend on development), can only benefit the user and shouldn't harm the "developer". It's simply a "comfort" feature that can make the product that much more enjoyable and maybe then more profitable. I guess I just can't buy the "argument" that a racesave feature is "detrimental" to the "purity" of the simulation. This just stretches credulity. If someone doesn't want to use it because it would ruin their enjoyment of the "essence" of the simulation, no one is forcing them to use it. If one finds that their enjoyment of the simulation is enhanced by being able to "save a race" and continue with it later, who is harmed? A race save option would just be a nice feature to include, just like have a full staffed garage to work on your car between races so you can concentrate more on the job of racing (to use your point above regarding "reality"). % >Maybe % >a real sim should only allow one to race one event just once a year in % >real time. You***up your one and only chance to win the American % >Grand Prix and you'll have to wait until next year in "real time" (and % >hope you still have a ride. <G>). % If you are talking about an accurate _sim_ then that would be your % only option for accuracy. Anything less is a compromise, and that is % what we are discussing - degrees of compromise. Again, how does a racesave feature really compromise the beauty of GPL? And if it does compromise it in your book, don't use it. It certainly won't compromise the wonders Papy did with this sim for me. % >Actually the casual gamer ain't gonna panic much at all. It's the more % >hard core freaks that "need" a full length race and rely on a saverace % >feature to accommodate their real lives. To be perfectly honest, I don't % >think there are many even here in r.a.s. land that run full length % >NASCAR events in N2. Most run 25-50% races (or even less). % I would guess so, hence my response to Marc re the casual gamers (what % is a casual gamer anyway, someone lying back in an easy chair wearing % jeans and with a beer in hand?). With a bag of chips (or is that crisps over there?) in the other hand! Maybe we should do an informal poll and see what race lengths people run (and under what conditions, online, offline league, solo, etc.). -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 15:36:49 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >Well, my point is who the hell makes the "decision" when to cross the >barrier between a "realistic" simulation and an "enjoyable" simulation? >The "big" argument against a racesave feature being bandied about here, >is that it would be "unrealistic". Papyrus of course. It's their call since it's their product and their sales. They are also the only ones in possesion of the full facts. Arguable. If having a racesave featured so detracted from development time that the product and/or release date suffered then that would harm both the product and the developer. We don't know so we can but speculate. I don't _personally_ buy that either, but I acknowledge that others can and do. In online racing there is a BIG difference in racin attitude between running with damage off and agreeing not to do anything silly and actually running full damage and being forced no to. There is a fundamental change in approach, thinking and attitude and that is what GPL, by accident or design, forces you to do. Who mentioned beauty, you were talking about realism. If you want the most accurate simulation of racing then that, by definition, cannot include a save. That was the only point, not about GPL. Crisps. Chips are what you call "fries", or, curiouser and curiouser, "French fries" (and the French call them fried potatoes - wierd)! It might be an idea, although I reckon most people are struggling to do complete a race right now - I know I was! Cheers! John

> On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 09:34:47 GMT John Wallace > % On Thu, 01 Oct 1998 01:15:14 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" > % >We can stretch this argument until it gets thin. Restarting a race event

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> % >because one crashed out on lap 32, isn't very realistic either. > % Perhaps you can stretch the argument until it gets thin but I prefer > % to do so only while it remains realistic. I don't see where you get > % the "not very realistic" - I'm not sure where you managed to buy your > % real-life car with the save race function and Shift-R but I must > % confess to never having seen one. I used to go home, fix my car, then > % go back to the racetrack and try again. > Well, my point is who the hell makes the "decision" when to cross the > barrier between a "realistic" simulation and an "enjoyable" simulation?

Realistic? How about if you crash really hard the screen goes blank and will Never run again as in, you died. Or you sit out the rest of the year (because the game watches your PC's clock) in a wheelchair. You have to make SOME compromises. Kurt

Hey Byron, That is one of my major gripes with current online racing, say N2 on TEN. If the software could somehow gracefully handle disconnects by say, allowing one to reconnect and at least rejoin from the pits, it would be much better. Losing a lap or two is much preferred to a DNF, particularly in a NASCAR sim with the deep points paying positions. I suppose that in time online racing will continue to improve as the net gets better (I hope). Clark A. (ace29 on TEN)

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>> Perhaps enduros are not totally ruled out though. There is no reason >> that you couldn't run several "stages" through the internet >> (multiplayer!!!) with cumulative gaps added up through the stages. > Yes, but in my experience so far in the distant land of Aus, not only are pings an >issue but simply being able to hold a connection is often difficult. I had a multi race >recently with someone in Cali with a cable modem with a few dropouts in fact. Maybe that >would change with a different ISP and/or if I also had a cable modem or at least a 56.6 >instead of my aging 33.6 :) I don't wanna get to hour 24 in the lead of the A1 Ring 24 and >get cut off :((((((( LOL. >-- > Byron Forbes > Captain of Team Lightning Bolt > http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS > and > http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

I think we gamers/simmers need dedicated bandwidth ie a dedicated international *** network. Dreaming on........maybe.

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> Hey Byron, > That is one of my major gripes with current online racing, say N2 on > TEN. If the software could somehow gracefully handle disconnects by > say, allowing one to reconnect and at least rejoin from the pits, it > would be much better. Losing a lap or two is much preferred to a DNF, > particularly in a NASCAR sim with the deep points paying positions. > I suppose that in time online racing will continue to improve as the > net gets better (I hope). > Clark A. (ace29 on TEN) > >> Perhaps enduros are not totally ruled out though. There is no reason > >> that you couldn't run several "stages" through the internet > >> (multiplayer!!!) with cumulative gaps added up through the stages. > > Yes, but in my experience so far in the distant land of Aus, not only are pings an > >issue but simply being able to hold a connection is often difficult. I had a multi race > >recently with someone in Cali with a cable modem with a few dropouts in fact. Maybe that > >would change with a different ISP and/or if I also had a cable modem or at least a 56.6 > >instead of my aging 33.6 :) I don't wanna get to hour 24 in the lead of the A1 Ring 24 and > >get cut off :((((((( LOL. > >-- > > Byron Forbes > > Captain of Team Lightning Bolt > > http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS > > and > > [link lost in import: /~godsoe/bolt/home.htm]

-- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Interesting point. Did you notice all those reliability parameters in those ini's? Since the AI makes mistakes and can crash, I suppose we would need to run without damage, though I have not checked to see if that effects the AI. In any case, the drivers abilities could be maxed out to make them last as long as possible :) It should be interesting to see how these things pan out. > Yeah I know, just pulling your leg <g> I've said previously that I would > like to run a true 24 hour race (i.e. one where the AI would last the > distance in a single race) but only if I could restrict it to 3 hours or so > at a time <g> > We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions > whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie... -- Byron Forbes Captain of Team Lightning Bolt http://members.tripod.com/~HOSHUMUNGUS and http://www.frontiernet.net/~godsoe/bolt/home.htm

Thanks for your highly scientific analysis. Your information was a real contribution to this discussion. - Rick

Feel free to provide superior data. The retort below was insufficient. Kurt

The EB where I got mine had 7. So I would say the number varies widely. Ed Benson

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> Feel free to provide superior data. The retort below was insufficient. > Kurt > > > I just picked up the REAL game from EB. Using them as a gauge of what > the > > > "real world" thinks the expected sales would be, I asked the sales > clerk > > > how many copies of GPL he got in. > > > Two. > > Thanks for your highly scientific analysis. Your information was a real > > contribution to this discussion. > > - Rick

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> That is one of my major gripes with current online racing, say N2 on > TEN. If the software could somehow gracefully handle disconnects by > say, allowing one to reconnect and at least rejoin from the pits, it > would be much better. Losing a lap or two is much preferred to a > DNF, particularly in a NASCAR sim with the deep points paying > positions. > I suppose that in time online racing will continue to improve as the > net gets better (I hope).

Do you believe the net is getting better? I've seen quite the opposite in all areas EXCEPT the last mile. (Of course, that had been the historical limiting factor, but now that we've "fixed" that, we're seeing regular packet loss at many of the hubs... I'm not sure gamers are better off for it [except for those downloading warez over cable modems; their miserable lives are better...]) ---Jim