TOCA vs NASCAR

The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be TOCA and Nascar. WHich one should I go for?

It all depends on what "floats your boat". If you like ovals, go with N2, but if road racing is your thing, try TOCA. Personally, I've spent many more hours on TOCA than NASCAR2. -don "To race is to live, everything else is just waiting." - Rudi Caracciola

There both good, actually very good. TOCA is my personal favorite because I'm not a great fan of ovals and the Nascars don't handle too well on road circuits, Paul

toca is an arcade/sim hybrid. NASCAR2 was a top of the notch sim when it came out, but it a lil outdated on the physics side of it, but is still a top sim. I have both, and if i hadto sell one toca would be gone b4 i even thought about nascar2 >The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be TOCA >and Nascar. >WHich one should I go for?

If you go to The Pits (http://www.theuspits.com), you can get a touring car patch for NASCAR2...as well as a patch to replicate 1970s NASCAR cars. TOCA, while good, is a little lacking in the AI department. I've got both... Cheers! -- ??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/ The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

Go for both. Nascar is much more of a true sim, but the AI isn't as good as TOCA. Toca has sim qualities and is fun to race the computer drivers. I have them both and like them very much. >The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be TOCA >and Nascar. >WHich one should I go for?

> The only contenders for closed wheel racing sim-games seem to be > TOCA > and Nascar. > WHich one should I go for? What about Network Q RAC Rally (or the newer version International Rally Championship)? or how about Colin MaCrae Rally? Or if you are looking at TOCa (which isn't a true sim?) how about Motorhead or Screamer Rally? 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

The Touring Car patch for N2 doesn't give you a Touring Car. They handle way different. Also they race way different and the AI cars in TOCA though as flawed as any AI cars in any sim/game does model the crash-bash, door-handle wrestling, etc nature of TC racing - see http://www.tpjones.demon.co.uk/tugn1_6.htm for an opinion of the AI in TOCA by a real TC racer. N2 does not. If you want NASCAR racing get N2 (or N3) if you want Touring Car racing get TOCA (or TOCA2), Paul

Brent wrote Nascar Racing 2 has the most realistic AI ever made... So realistic they are called humans... http://www.nros.com/ ;-) (heh I just invented a good add for the NROS) - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

While I agree that the AI in TOCA do race each OTHER hard, which has long been a complaint with all the Papyrus sims, and there is nothing that us at The Pits or anyone else can do about that...it's Papyrus' poor 'crash model' that is at fault...their AI are not allowed to hit each other unless one of them spins. This is partially because you are using an AI model which is basically unchanged from it's original 1992? ICR1 game, which at the time couldn't handle indepth AI intelligence. And contact with other cars hitting each other will have a major factor in what happens in a race. However, as far as human vs. AI, IMHO our latest AI is some of the most accurate AI developed, I've had AI cars tap me in the rear and spin me out in corners, block me, take up as much of the track as possible, race me on the outside of the corner, I even had one incident where I hit a car in the rear in one corner, and passed him, the next corner he rammed me in the rear and spun me out! (Revenge?) ;] If you would like to see some of the latest we've worked on, download Dusen-ring from the TPTCC page (or I can send you some from a specific track). We will be releasing all this AI in a future patch. As well, we've fixed problems with AI cars outbraking or outaccellerating the human car, the performance values are very close. As far as the handling issue, most of that is setup. True, we're using a game engine that simulates 700 hp vs 300 hp, and 3500 lbs vs 2000 lbs, but I noticed no major differences between my setups and the TOCA 'generic' setup...most of that due to the fact that most of my setups have extremely stiff shock/spring settings. If you run soft settings, of course you will get the impression that you are wallowing in a 'Yank tank'. However, what you may not realize is that we did comparative power to weight ratios on stockcars vs touring cars even before we started this patch to see if it was going to be effective. If you divide the overall weight by the hp, you'll find that the US stockcar and the touring car have a very close power-to-weight ratio. What does that mean? That accelleration is going to be very close, and the rest of the simulation all deals with chassis. Braking is the only other advantage, and this is one that real touring cars probably hold over the US stock cars, however, with my stiff spring settings, I noticed no major differences between my setups and the TOCA generic setup. The other major flaw with TOCA besides the stackup problem is it's inaccurate modeling of some of the tracks. Brands Hatch feels like the Baja 500 rather than a touring car race, I know, I've got all the Brands Hatch races recorded on video over the last 2 years. It's not near as rough as they make out. As well, the damage model and the cars bouncing up in the air also turn it more into an arcade rather than realism. That is one area that Papy's sim shines, the damage model is fairly consistent and fairly accurate. All in all, I like both, but prefer the TPTCC over TOCA as far as realism. If only we could put together Brands Hatch, it would be great. And beings we have many touring car fans in the TPTCC league, I'm not the only one holding that opinion.... Cheers! -- ??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com/ The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com/

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>The other major flaw with TOCA besides the stackup problem is it's inaccurate > modeling >of some of the tracks. Brands Hatch feels like the Baja 500 rather than a > touring car >race, I know, I've got all the Brands Hatch races recorded on video over the > last 2 years. >It's not near as rough as they make out.

Rubbish. I've been to 5 races at brands this year, and two TOCA meetings and it is that seriously bumpy. It's also considerably steeper IRL, too. Z. PS: Silverstone is the worst modelled track in TOCA. (The Chicane after the hairpin is GP circuit only, not in the International Circuit.)

Brilliant reply Jan. I drove at Brands Hatch on Tuesday in a Formula First (a 1600 single seater) so I can tell you from first hand what the track is like. My major complaint about TOCA's mapping of Brands is that the track seems wider in reality than in the program, especially Druids and Cooper Straight. It's hard to convert 1:1 because in a real car you can see the track all around you not just in the 17 inch square immediately in front of you. Also, and obviously, the g-forces are quite severe in a real car and you can feel the track - this is out of TOCA's hands (even FF will make no difference here). The curbs seem much narrower and less steep in reality - everyone drives over them. The adverse camber and gradient at Paddock is pretty well mapped. What you don't get is the scariness - man, that hill is very steep and scary at speed and you don't get the idea properly either as a spectator, from a video or from TOCA. In TOCA with a lot of practice you can take Paddock flat out in 6th gear without braking beforehand - I don't know whether this is possible in reality, but nobody in their right mind would attempt this. All the Touring Car events (indeed all events) I've ever witnessed at Brands (my local major track) have the cars braking on entry to this one - if you going to lose it at Brands this is the corner you most likely to do it on. Druids seems pretty realistic as does Graham Hill and Surtees. McClaren to Clearways is an uphill section which seems to be almost completely flat in TOCA, and the top straight goes downhill from Clearways rather than uphill as the program suggests. I may appear to be very critical of TOCA's representation of Brands, but actually I think they haven't done too badly. You certainly get the feel of a short tight circuit with lots of tight, technical corners. All sims have an awesome problem of mapping reality to a flat screen. TOCA seems to have a slight fish-eye effect and the relative size of the car seems large. This seems to compensate for the vision problem quite well - after all they have to resort to optical illusions. TOCA 2 will have wide-screen format which will help some. A beef I have with Nascar is that the ***pit leaves only a tiny amount of the screen available for the track ahead. This may have the relative sizes of track to***pit correctly mapped but then it's all shoved inside a monitor so you get to see a small bit of track. In a TC and I imagine a Stock Car you get to "see" a lot more because of how you focus and because you look at it direct and not through a screen.Better would be to have a cardboard surround with a***pit painted on it which you stick around the monitor. Then you show only track and instruments. TOCA's bonnet-cam works well - it's both more and less realistic at the same time. Basically, it's an impossible problem. Paul

> Nascar Racing 2 has the most realistic AI ever made... > So realistic they are called humans... Very true. That's the problem with all sims. The only opposition that is going to get your heart beating is a human. Even if AI cars in a sim get better than people it will never be as much fun as racing a human. It's the same with anything, chess, backgammon, etc etc. Humans are the only meaningful oppostion. Paul

> PS: Silverstone is the worst modelled track in TOCA. (The Chicane after the > hairpin is GP circuit only, not in the International Circuit.) Is that true? You mean the two mild corners between Farm and Bridge don't exist - I've never been to Silverstone IRL but my 1996 map has them in. Maybe they've remodelled it. Paul

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>> PS: Silverstone is the worst modelled track in TOCA. (The Chicane after the >> hairpin is GP circuit only, not in the International Circuit.) >Is that true? You mean the two mild corners between Farm and Bridge don't exist > - I've never been to >Silverstone IRL but my 1996 map has them in. Maybe they've remodelled it. >Paul

International circuit was first created in i think 1996?. Till then the BTCC and F3 etc, tended to alternate between the GP and the club circuit (Beckets to Brooklands). The Newer International goes from Beckets, to a hairpin at Abbey. http://www.silverstone-circuit.co.uk/pics/gp97-map.zip is the gp circuit... http://www.btcc.co.uk/circuits/silverst.htm is the International. You can see on the international, they straight line out of abbey and continue under Farm Bridge, with out the left right kink that features on the GP Circuit. ( the path of the international is shown in grey.) That said the two corners between Abbey and Farm Bridge do exist, just that make up the GP circuit, and not the international. They are coned off on racedays. Z.

And that is where TOCA fails! Internet play is totally impossible due to massive lag, or the way the multi-play was designed :( >> Nascar Racing 2 has the most realistic AI ever made... >> So realistic they are called humans... >Very true. That's the problem with all sims. The only opposition that is going >to get your heart beating is a human. Even if AI cars in a sim get better than >people it will never be as much fun as racing a human. It's the same with >anything, chess, backgammon, etc etc. Humans are the only meaningful oppostion. >Paul

On Tue, 29 Sep 1998 02:21:16 +0100, Paul Jones > ... >What you don't get is the scariness - man, that >hill is very steep and scary at speed and you don't get the idea properly either as a spectator, from >a video or from TOCA. This is true. I've driven around the Bathurst circuit in Australia, as lots of folks have, - it being a public road when not used for racing. The steepness of the decline down the mountainside is amazing. The actual feeling of steep decent is much more than that conveyed watching TV. Also driving on sim tracks of the same just doesn't feel as steep or harrowing. Perhaps sim makers need to exaggerate elevation changes to get the right feeling. Sometimes its right to depict reality exactly as is. But sometimes to get the 'feel' of reality you need to fudge things. I always feel that the thing is to simulate the experience. Most times this is achieved by duplicating technical reality. But there's times when to get the experience right one needs to adjust things for the simulation medium. When faced with the choice between technical reality and experience reality I think simers ought to choose experience reality every time - IMHO. Phillip McNelley

The problem is if you do it wrong people crisicise and if you do it right they say it's not real enough. I've been to around half the TOCA circuits in real life and most are accurate enough but don't feel like being there. However as I';ve never driven a super tourer around them, who am I to say what feels right? M

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>This is true. I've driven around the Bathurst circuit in Australia, as >lots of folks have, - it being a public road when not used for racing. >The steepness of the decline down the mountainside is amazing. The >actual feeling of steep decent is much more than that conveyed >watching TV. Also driving on sim tracks of the same just doesn't feel >as steep or harrowing. >Perhaps sim makers need to exaggerate elevation changes to get the >right feeling. Sometimes its right to depict reality exactly as is. >But sometimes to get the 'feel' of reality you need to fudge things. >I always feel that the thing is to simulate the experience. Most times >this is achieved by duplicating technical reality. But there's times >when to get the experience right one needs to adjust things for the >simulation medium. When faced with the choice between technical >reality and experience reality I think simers ought to choose >experience reality every time - IMHO.

I had the same impression with the real C***te Motor Speedway vs the NASCAR 1 version. I went out and drove it at the Richard Petty Driving School, after doing countless laps at the N1 C***te, and the two didn't compare. The N2 version is alot better, of course, and does represent it alot better, I can *almost* imagine the laps I put in at the real C***te from the N2 version. However, one thing that doesn't convey is the tightness of the corners, and the bumpiness of the track. The real C***te is very bumpy, although I heard from the driver of the race team I worked for that I should have driven it a few years earlier! Coming off turn 4 is a blast at the real track, another thing that doesn't convey is the impression of getting a bit apprehensive at seeing the turn 4 wall coming up at an alarming rate. We were doing 145 mph laps, so our speeds were about 20 mph short of Winston Cup cars...MAN!!!! Yeah, that's my complaint with most racing sims as well, and you're right, you do see a bit more with TOCA than you do with N2. Really, you need a 3d helmet to drive properly, the peripheral vision is what bothers me most. I hate not being able to see cars beside me, it's something that has always bothered me with racing sims, and probably one reason I'm not #1 on NROS...gimme a real car any day, and then we'll see who ends up in last place! ;] Cheers! -- ??Jan Kohl?? **The Pits Performance Team** Computer Systems Programmer USAF Air-Ground Operations School Hurlburt Field, FL Castle Graphics - http://www.castlegraphics.com The Pits - http://www.theuspits.com