"Hey Pat Dotson, Can I Try Yer Setup?" - ARCA Sim Racing

I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last couple of weeks. The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: General Comments: Cross Weight (Wedge) It's important to note, you'll notice in the recommendations below that I only mention cross weight (wedge) as a solution in the exit phase of the corner. The biggest problem I see most people having is being loose on exit. The problem is most prevalent at flatter and smaller tracks like Salem, USA Int'l, and Milwaukee. The best thing you can do if you are loose off the corner is to keep adding cross weight until the car will drive smoothly off the corner. Once you find that cross weight balance leave it alone. Use other setup parameters to correct handling in other phases of the corner. As you reach a good neutral balance through the entire corner you may adjust cross a bit, but only use it to correct corner exit problems. Left rear spring rate also has a significant affect on corner exit balance. Cross weight adjustments are a bit more coarse than left rear spring adjustments. If you are just a little loose or tight on exit just try adjusting the left rear spring a click or two in the appropriate direction. Driving Style Another problem I see occurs when people over-drive the car into corners. A symptom of this problem is excessive right front tire temperature. If your right front tire is hotter than the right rear, you probably need to adjust your driving style. The two ways to improve your driving style are to A) slow down more before approaching your maximum turn rate, and B) use less steering wheel input. If you do 'A' then 'B' will naturally follow. So, slow the car down more on entry, get the right line through the apex, and you can get on the gas earlier. This is the key to going fast. The result will be lower right front tire temperatures, better tire wear, and faster lap times. ARCA Sim Racing Setup Cheat Sheet: These setup suggestions represent a conventional approach to chassis and suspension setup. A 'Coil Bind' or 'Big Bar - Soft Spring' setup approach may differ significantly, and is beyond the scope of this document. While there are a few things here that may be specific to ARCA Sim Racing, almost all of this applies directly to real life car setups. These recommendations are what works best for me in ASR based on my own experience. Air Pressures Qualifying - at end of run: - Middle temps should equal or slightly exceed inside edge (relative to track) temp. - RR middle temp should be 10°F hotter than inside temp. - The right rear tire temp should be about 10°F to 15°F hotter than the right front. Race - after 10 to 20 laps: - For long runs middle temps should equal average tire temp (M = (I+M +0)/3). - The right rear tire temp should be about 10°F to 15°F hotter than the right front. - For short races apply qualifying guidelines after 10 to 20 laps. Camber - Set front camber for a 10° to 15° temp spread across tread with the inside edge (relative to track) hotter. - Set rear camber to full For the completely clueless: - Oversteer = Loose = The rear tires lose grip first. - Understeer = Pushing = The front tires lose grip first. If the car is pushing, you need to increase oversteer. If the car is loose, you need to increase understeer. Overall Handling Problem Solutions: Increase Oversteer - Soften Sway Bar - Soften Front/Stiffen Rear Springs - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally - Increase Rear Weight Bias - Increase Front Fender Flare - Lower Rear Wing - Increase Rear Brake Bias Increase Understeer - Stiffen Sway Bar - Stiffen Front/Soften Rear Springs - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally - Increase Front Weight Bias - Decrease Front Fender Flare - Raise Rear Wing - Increase Front Brake Bias Corner Phase Handling Problem Solutions (Entry, Apex, Exit): Entry Increase Oversteer - Soften Right Front Spring - Stiffen Right Rear Spring - Raise Left Side of Track Bar - Soften Right Front Shock Compression/Bump Increase Understeer - Stiffen Right Front Spring - Soften Right Rear Spring - Lower Left Side of Track Bar - Stiffen Right Front Shock Compression/Bump Apex Increase Oversteer - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally Increase Oversteer - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally Exit Increase Oversteer - Lower Cross Weight (Wedge) - Soften Left Rear Spring - Increase Right Rear Spring - Raise Right Side of Track Bar Increase Understeer - Raise Cross Weight (Wedge) - Stiffen Left Rear Spring - Increase Right Rear Spring - Lower Right Side of Track Bar Pat Dotson UltraForce Simulations LLC http://www.ultraforcesim.com

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last couple of weeks. The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: General Comments: Cross Weight (Wedge) It's important to note, you'll notice in the recommendations below that I only mention cross weight (wedge) as a solution in the exit phase of the corner. The biggest problem I see most people having is being loose on exit. The problem is most prevalent at flatter and smaller tracks like Salem, USA Int'l, and Milwaukee. The best thing you can do if you are loose off the corner is to keep adding cross weight until the car will drive smoothly off the corner. Once you find that cross weight balance leave it alone. Use other setup parameters to correct handling in other phases of the corner. As you reach a good neutral balance through the entire corner you may adjust cross a bit, but only use it to correct corner exit problems. Left rear spring rate also has a significant affect on corner exit balance. Cross weight adjustments are a bit more coarse than left rear spring adjustments. If you are just a little loose or tight on exit just try adjusting the left rear spring a click or two in the appropriate direction. Driving Style Another problem I see occurs when people over-drive the car into corners. A symptom of this problem is excessive right front tire temperature. If your right front tire is hotter than the right rear, you probably need to adjust your driving style. The two ways to improve your driving style are to A) slow down more before approaching your maximum turn rate, and B) use less steering wheel input. If you do 'A' then 'B' will naturally follow. So, slow the car down more on entry, get the right line through the apex, and you can get on the gas earlier. This is the key to going fast. The result will be lower right front tire temperatures, better tire wear, and faster lap times. ARCA Sim Racing Setup Cheat Sheet: These setup suggestions represent a conventional approach to chassis and suspension setup. A 'Coil Bind' or 'Big Bar - Soft Spring' setup approach may differ significantly, and is beyond the scope of this document. While there are a few things here that may be specific to ARCA Sim Racing, almost all of this applies directly to real life car setups. These recommendations are what works best for me in ASR based on my own experience. Air Pressures Qualifying - at end of run: - Middle temps should equal or slightly exceed inside edge (relative to track) temp. - RR middle temp should be 10�F hotter than inside temp. - The right rear tire temp should be about 10�F to 15�F hotter than the right front. Race - after 10 to 20 laps: - For long runs middle temps should equal average tire temp (M = (I+M +0)/3). - The right rear tire temp should be about 10�F to 15�F hotter than the right front. - For short races apply qualifying guidelines after 10 to 20 laps. Camber - Set front camber for a 10� to 15� temp spread across tread with the inside edge (relative to track) hotter. - Set rear camber to full For the completely clueless: - Oversteer = Loose = The rear tires lose grip first. - Understeer = Pushing = The front tires lose grip first. If the car is pushing, you need to increase oversteer. If the car is loose, you need to increase understeer. Overall Handling Problem Solutions: Increase Oversteer - Soften Sway Bar - Soften Front/Stiffen Rear Springs - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally - Increase Rear Weight Bias - Increase Front Fender Flare - Lower Rear Wing - Increase Rear Brake Bias Increase Understeer - Stiffen Sway Bar - Stiffen Front/Soften Rear Springs - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally - Increase Front Weight Bias - Decrease Front Fender Flare - Raise Rear Wing - Increase Front Brake Bias Corner Phase Handling Problem Solutions (Entry, Apex, Exit): Entry Increase Oversteer - Soften Right Front Spring - Stiffen Right Rear Spring - Raise Left Side of Track Bar - Soften Right Front Shock Compression/Bump Increase Understeer - Stiffen Right Front Spring - Soften Right Rear Spring - Lower Left Side of Track Bar - Stiffen Right Front Shock Compression/Bump Apex Increase Oversteer - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally Increase Oversteer - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally Exit Increase Oversteer - Lower Cross Weight (Wedge) - Soften Left Rear Spring - Increase Right Rear Spring - Raise Right Side of Track Bar Increase Understeer - Raise Cross Weight (Wedge) - Stiffen Left Rear Spring - Increase Right Rear Spring - Lower Right Side of Track Bar Pat Dotson UltraForce Simulations LLC http://www.ultraforcesim.com Nice post. I've learned to go a little easier into a turn, and my right-front tires are not getting as hot as they used to. Tell me, is wise to break going into a turn, generally speaking? For instance, at Pocono-- I have been breaking into the turn, then downshifting to 3rd, exiting the turn, running straight, jumping to 4th, then to the next turn, etc. I've got a best time at Pocono of 54.9xx. I know it's not terribly fast, but breaking the 55.xxx barrier was cause for celebration. :) Alan

Alan Bernardo wrote:

Quoted text (165 lines)

> > <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:[email hidden]... > I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last > couple of weeks. > > The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: > > > General Comments: > > Cross Weight (Wedge) > > It's important to note, you'll notice in the recommendations below > that I only mention cross weight (wedge) as a solution in the exit > phase of the corner. The biggest problem I see most people having is > being loose on exit. The problem is most prevalent at flatter and > smaller tracks like Salem, USA Int'l, and Milwaukee. The best thing > you can do if you are loose off the corner is to keep adding cross > weight until the car will drive smoothly off the corner. Once you > find that cross weight balance leave it alone. Use other setup > parameters to correct handling in other phases of the corner. As you > reach a good neutral balance through the entire corner you may adjust > cross a bit, but only use it to correct corner exit problems. > > Left rear spring rate also has a significant affect on corner exit > balance. Cross weight adjustments are a bit more coarse than left > rear spring adjustments. If you are just a little loose or tight on > exit just try adjusting the left rear spring a click or two in the > appropriate direction. > > Driving Style > > Another problem I see occurs when people over-drive the car into > corners. A symptom of this problem is excessive right front tire > temperature. If your right front tire is hotter than the right rear, > you probably need to adjust your driving style. The two ways to > improve your driving style are to A) slow down more before approaching > your maximum turn rate, and B) use less steering wheel input. If you > do 'A' then 'B' will naturally follow. So, slow the car down more on > entry, get the right line through the apex, and you can get on the gas > earlier. This is the key to going fast. The result will be lower > right front tire temperatures, better tire wear, and faster lap times. > > > ARCA Sim Racing Setup Cheat Sheet: > > These setup suggestions represent a conventional approach to chassis > and suspension setup. A 'Coil Bind' or 'Big Bar - Soft Spring' setup > approach may differ significantly, and is beyond the scope of this > document. While there are a few things here that may be specific to > ARCA Sim Racing, almost all of this applies directly to real life car > setups. These recommendations are what works best for me in ASR based > on my own experience. > > > Air Pressures > > Qualifying - at end of run: > > - Middle temps should equal or slightly exceed inside edge (relative > to track) temp. > - RR middle temp should be 10�F hotter than inside temp. > - The right rear tire temp should be about 10�F to 15�F hotter than > the right front. > > Race - after 10 to 20 laps: > > - For long runs middle temps should equal average tire temp (M = (I+M > +0)/3). > - The right rear tire temp should be about 10�F to 15�F hotter than > the right front. > - For short races apply qualifying guidelines after 10 to 20 laps. > > > Camber > > - Set front camber for a 10� to 15� temp spread across tread with the > inside edge (relative to track) hotter. > - Set rear camber to full > > > For the completely clueless: > > - Oversteer = Loose = The rear tires lose grip first. > - Understeer = Pushing = The front tires lose grip first. > > If the car is pushing, you need to increase oversteer. If the car is > loose, you need to increase understeer. > > > Overall Handling Problem Solutions: > > Increase Oversteer > > - Soften Sway Bar > - Soften Front/Stiffen Rear Springs > - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally > - Increase Rear Weight Bias > - Increase Front Fender Flare > - Lower Rear Wing > - Increase Rear Brake Bias > > Increase Understeer > > - Stiffen Sway Bar > - Stiffen Front/Soften Rear Springs > - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally > - Increase Front Weight Bias > - Decrease Front Fender Flare > - Raise Rear Wing > - Increase Front Brake Bias > > > Corner Phase Handling Problem Solutions (Entry, Apex, Exit): > > Entry > > Increase Oversteer > > - Soften Right Front Spring > - Stiffen Right Rear Spring > - Raise Left Side of Track Bar > - Soften Right Front Shock Compression/Bump > > Increase Understeer > > - Stiffen Right Front Spring > - Soften Right Rear Spring > - Lower Left Side of Track Bar > - Stiffen Right Front Shock Compression/Bump > > > Apex > > Increase Oversteer > > - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally > > Increase Oversteer > > - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally > > > Exit > > Increase Oversteer > > - Lower Cross Weight (Wedge) > - Soften Left Rear Spring > - Increase Right Rear Spring > - Raise Right Side of Track Bar > > Increase Understeer > > - Raise Cross Weight (Wedge) > - Stiffen Left Rear Spring > - Increase Right Rear Spring > - Lower Right Side of Track Bar > > > Pat Dotson > UltraForce Simulations LLC > http://www.ultraforcesim.com >

I guess the people in ARCA Racing aren't to nice. Sharing setups is a good way to make friends. I guess I should stay away from ARCA Racing if asking someone to share a setup results in a rude (IMHO) no. Seems like a selfish response to me.

>> "Hey Pat Dotson, Can I Try Yer Setup?" > I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last > couple of weeks. > The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: Well that helps me decide not to buy this game, since apparently players don't want to share setups. Must be a bit more competitive than fun than I prefer.

"rcgldr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:CvfIj.79863$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (13 lines)

>>> "Hey Pat Dotson, Can I Try Yer Setup?" > >> I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last >> couple of weeks. > >> The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: > > Well that helps me decide not to buy this game, since apparently > players don't want to share setups. > > Must be a bit more competitive than fun than I prefer. > >

What a bunch of spoilt little children - gimmee gimmee gimmee. A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim working shit out and you think he SHOULD just give it out to any spoilt little pissant? FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly lower the average IQ of some other genre.

> A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim working shit out and you think he SHOULD just > give it out A group of programmers spend years of sim racing and months on creating a mod for rFactor, or some other game, and you think they should give it away? Oh wait a minute, they do.

"rcgldr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zKhIj.1094$[email hidden]...

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>> A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim >> working shit out and you think he SHOULD just give it out > > A group of programmers spend years of sim racing and months on creating > a mod for rFactor, or some other game, and you think they should give it > away? Oh wait a minute, they do. > > >

2 things - 1/ Not the same thing at all. 2/ Are you saying they "SHOULD" do that and be criticized otherwise. Why dont you ask Pat to come around and do your driving for you as well - make him bring his own computer and wheel/pedals over too! What a bunch of fucking wankers.

> Are you saying they "SHOULD" do that and be criticized otherwise. Not a reference to the player, but to the more competitive nature of the game. I'm not sure what percentage of players are willing to share setups and under what circumstances, and how this differs from game to game. Anyway, sorry, I overreacted. Shouldn't judge a game by one player's post here.

On Mar 31, 8:40 pm, "rcgldr" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Well that helps me decide not to buy this game, since apparently > players don't want to share setups. > > Must be a bit more competitive than fun than I prefer. Developing your own setups is one of the skills of simracing. Sometimes I wonder why developers even include garage menus in their sims when they could just have Greger Huttu or Volker Hackmann test the sim and harcode their setups into it. It would probably satisfy 3/4 of their target audience. I wish someone would make a sim that made sharing setups impossible, although frankly I suppose it couldn't be done.

On Mar 31, 7:26 pm, Richard <[email hidden]> wrote: > > I guess the people in ARCA Racing aren't to nice. Sharing setups is a > good way to make friends. I guess I should stay away from ARCA Racing if > asking someone to share a setup results in a rude (IMHO) no. Seems like > a selfish response to me.- Hide quoted text - People are very nice on the ASR servers. Lot's of people do share setups. I've shared my own setups lots of times. I don't mean for 'no' to be rude, but it's my policy now. The problem is, there are people who continually ask to get another setup. It's getting ridiculous. There are guys who I've given setups to several times, and they aren't any faster with mine than with the default, but they keep on asking everytime they see me on a server. That was the point of taking *My Time* to write an explanation of how to adjust setups in a way that works. And also, to point out to these people whose biggest problem is not setup, but driving ability/style, that they need to spend more time turning laps and less time begging for setups. For example, the default Milwaukee setup will rather easily turn laps at 30 seconds flat. With minimal tweaking it will do 29.8's. You end up with guys who are going 30.5 asking for my setup that I just qual'd at 29.4. I've given my setups away before and they still run 30.5. The problem is not setup, it's driving style. And last but not least, I'll help anyone learn about car setup. I love to talk about vehicle dynamics and setup theory. But I've invested a lot of time learning this stuff, and just handing a setup over is cheap. I've done it, I still do it on occasion. But don't come at me with a sense of entitlement. Ask me a question and I"ll take as much time is necessary to answer it as best I can. Ask me for a setup and the answer is probably "no". Open a book, do some web surfing, or read some of the posts ** I've Taken The Time To Write **, and learn to do it yourself. Pat Dotson

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last couple of weeks. The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: General Comments: Cross Weight (Wedge) It's important to note, you'll notice in the recommendations below that I only mention cross weight (wedge) as a solution in the exit phase of the corner. The biggest problem I see most people having is being loose on exit. The problem is most prevalent at flatter and smaller tracks like Salem, USA Int'l, and Milwaukee. The best thing you can do if you are loose off the corner is to keep adding cross weight until the car will drive smoothly off the corner. Once you find that cross weight balance leave it alone. Use other setup parameters to correct handling in other phases of the corner. As you reach a good neutral balance through the entire corner you may adjust cross a bit, but only use it to correct corner exit problems. Left rear spring rate also has a significant affect on corner exit balance. Cross weight adjustments are a bit more coarse than left rear spring adjustments. If you are just a little loose or tight on exit just try adjusting the left rear spring a click or two in the appropriate direction. Driving Style Another problem I see occurs when people over-drive the car into corners. A symptom of this problem is excessive right front tire temperature. If your right front tire is hotter than the right rear, you probably need to adjust your driving style. The two ways to improve your driving style are to A) slow down more before approaching your maximum turn rate, and B) use less steering wheel input. If you do 'A' then 'B' will naturally follow. So, slow the car down more on entry, get the right line through the apex, and you can get on the gas earlier. This is the key to going fast. The result will be lower right front tire temperatures, better tire wear, and faster lap times. ARCA Sim Racing Setup Cheat Sheet: These setup suggestions represent a conventional approach to chassis and suspension setup. A 'Coil Bind' or 'Big Bar - Soft Spring' setup approach may differ significantly, and is beyond the scope of this document. While there are a few things here that may be specific to ARCA Sim Racing, almost all of this applies directly to real life car setups. These recommendations are what works best for me in ASR based on my own experience. Air Pressures Qualifying - at end of run: - Middle temps should equal or slightly exceed inside edge (relative to track) temp. - RR middle temp should be 10�F hotter than inside temp. - The right rear tire temp should be about 10�F to 15�F hotter than the right front. Race - after 10 to 20 laps: - For long runs middle temps should equal average tire temp (M = (I+M +0)/3). - The right rear tire temp should be about 10�F to 15�F hotter than the right front. - For short races apply qualifying guidelines after 10 to 20 laps. Camber - Set front camber for a 10� to 15� temp spread across tread with the inside edge (relative to track) hotter. - Set rear camber to full For the completely clueless: - Oversteer = Loose = The rear tires lose grip first. - Understeer = Pushing = The front tires lose grip first. If the car is pushing, you need to increase oversteer. If the car is loose, you need to increase understeer. Overall Handling Problem Solutions: Increase Oversteer - Soften Sway Bar - Soften Front/Stiffen Rear Springs - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally - Increase Rear Weight Bias - Increase Front Fender Flare - Lower Rear Wing - Increase Rear Brake Bias Increase Understeer - Stiffen Sway Bar - Stiffen Front/Soften Rear Springs - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally - Increase Front Weight Bias - Decrease Front Fender Flare - Raise Rear Wing - Increase Front Brake Bias Corner Phase Handling Problem Solutions (Entry, Apex, Exit): Entry Increase Oversteer - Soften Right Front Spring - Stiffen Right Rear Spring - Raise Left Side of Track Bar - Soften Right Front Shock Compression/Bump Increase Understeer - Stiffen Right Front Spring - Soften Right Rear Spring - Lower Left Side of Track Bar - Stiffen Right Front Shock Compression/Bump Apex Increase Oversteer - Raise Both Sides of Track Bar Equally Increase Oversteer - Lower Both Sides of Track Bar Equally Exit Increase Oversteer - Lower Cross Weight (Wedge) - Soften Left Rear Spring - Increase Right Rear Spring - Raise Right Side of Track Bar Increase Understeer - Raise Cross Weight (Wedge) - Stiffen Left Rear Spring - Increase Right Rear Spring - Lower Right Side of Track Bar Pat Dotson UltraForce Simulations LLC http://www.ultraforcesim.com Wow, Great read Pat ! :) Thank you for sharing you setup advice

"Byron Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:47f19dff$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (26 lines)

> > "rcgldr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message > news:CvfIj.79863$[email hidden]... >>>> "Hey Pat Dotson, Can I Try Yer Setup?" >> >>> I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last >>> couple of weeks. >> >>> The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: >> >> Well that helps me decide not to buy this game, since apparently >> players don't want to share setups. >> >> Must be a bit more competitive than fun than I prefer. >> >> > > > What a bunch of spoilt little children - gimmee gimmee gimmee. > > A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim > working shit out and you think he SHOULD just give it out to any spoilt > little pissant? > > FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly > lower the average IQ of some other genre.

Sharing setups makes sim racing more competitive. So go fuck your tight little virgin anus with a cucumber, you cunt!

Quentin Queerbottom wrote:

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> > "Byron Forbes" wrote in message >> FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly >> lower the average IQ of some other genre. > > Sharing setups makes sim racing more competitive. So go fuck your tight > little virgin anus with a cucumber, you cunt!

Steer clear of the salad at Byron's barbecue guys...

"rcgldr" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:0tjIj.1096$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (12 lines)

>> Are you saying they "SHOULD" do that and be criticized otherwise. > > Not a reference to the player, but to the more competitive nature > of the game. I'm not sure what percentage of players are willing > to share setups and under what circumstances, and how this differs > from game to game. > > Anyway, sorry, I overreacted. Shouldn't judge a game by one player's > post here. > > >

There are 2 "inteligent" reasons to share setups - 1/ Bragging - I'm so good I can share 2/ To do it privately with a team mate or mates and have ever improving setups - combined brainpower and man power. Then there are all the "weird" reasons.

"Tony R" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:FsyIj.780$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Quentin Queerbottom wrote: >> >> "Byron Forbes" wrote in message > >>> FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly >>> lower the average IQ of some other genre. >> >> Sharing setups makes sim racing more competitive. So go fuck your tight >> little virgin anus with a cucumber, you cunt! > > Steer clear of the salad at Byron's barbecue guys...

LOL - that saves me a reply! :)

Being nice to a fellow racer is not an intelligent reason, then. If that is the case, then racers have helped each other for ages for no intelligent reason at all. If that is intelligence, I'd be happy to be stupid. Sportsmanship and gentlemanship goes hand in hand, and that is why such a blunt refusal triggered a harsh response. -A- On 02.04.2008 04:19, * Byron Forbes wrote:

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > There are 2 "inteligent" reasons to share setups - > > 1/ Bragging - I'm so good I can share > > 2/ To do it privately with a team mate or mates and have ever improving > setups - combined brainpower and man power. > > Then there are all the "weird" reasons. > >

Call me weird, but the term "race", in my opinion, implies competition. This normally involves "beating" other people - nice for the winner and utterly fucked for everyone else! As far as sportmanship goes, I'd say that someone who can't even handle being turned down after a setup handout request would probably be a real dummy spitter after a race loss - no self dicipline or class at all! "Asgeir Nesoen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:fsvdue$dti$[email hidden]...

Quoted text (21 lines)

> Being nice to a fellow racer is not an intelligent reason, then. If that > is the case, then racers have helped each other for ages for no > intelligent reason at all. > > If that is intelligence, I'd be happy to be stupid. > > Sportsmanship and gentlemanship goes hand in hand, and that is why such a > blunt refusal triggered a harsh response. > > -A- > > On 02.04.2008 04:19, * Byron Forbes wrote: >> >> There are 2 "inteligent" reasons to share setups - >> >> 1/ Bragging - I'm so good I can share >> >> 2/ To do it privately with a team mate or mates and have ever >> improving setups - combined brainpower and man power. >> >> Then there are all the "weird" reasons.

Rut rhoh... Pdot, wow you dare suggest that "teach a man how to fish" is better than giving him a fish?! How dare you. Wait, I know what the problem is, you didn't phrase it right... Try it this way next time... <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... <I've heard variations on that phrase hundreds of times over the last <couple of weeks. <The answer is no, but here's how to make your own setup faster: (snip) "The answer is, how about I'll do you one better, here's how you can make {even my} setup better for you." then give them a teaser setup... It is all about the marketing, and yours was just too damn close to the new or OLD testament apparently. or to skip my own religious implications. As you can see, it is has to be carefully put forward. Just like how they say the US economy is in a slump, after absolutely NOT ONE, marketing figure to back up this fact. Despite all that, this last week, Barack Obama proclaimed "As most experts know, our economy is in a {bold and underline} RECESSION." Even though the actual definition of recession is, two consecutive quarters of negative growth, and we haven't even had one single quarter of negative growth reported. See, grasshopper (PDot) you just didn't say it right...

On Apr 2, 3:51 am, Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote: > Sportsmanship and gentlemanship goes hand in hand, and that is why such > a blunt refusal triggered a harsh response. > > -A- You are focusing on one word, and ignoring the other 133 lines of the post. Sportsmanship? I posted this same setup info on the ARCA RSC forum. A guy sent me an email responding to that post asking if I'd take a look at his setup. I told him to send it to me. He is apparently running 29.9's at Nashville with it. I loaded it up and ran a 29.7 on the third lap out of the pits. It was on the loose side with a hot RR tire, so I added 1/2% nose weight, and ran a 29.6. Added tape and air pressure for a qual run and ran a 29.58 the first time out. All this took about 10 laps. His setup is great - maybe better than mine. Did he need my setup? No. He would be slower with my setup. Would I have been doing him a favor by handing him my setup? No. He might have abandoned his setup that is already good. He needs more seat time, more laps, more attention to driving technique, and maybe more attention on his control setup. I worded my post exactly as intended. I hope it's a wake-up call for some people. Pat Dotson

Pat, your seat thing is too expensive for what it is. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... On Apr 2, 3:51 am, Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote: > Sportsmanship and gentlemanship goes hand in hand, and that is why such > a blunt refusal triggered a harsh response. > > -A- You are focusing on one word, and ignoring the other 133 lines of the post. Sportsmanship? I posted this same setup info on the ARCA RSC forum. A guy sent me an email responding to that post asking if I'd take a look at his setup. I told him to send it to me. He is apparently running 29.9's at Nashville with it. I loaded it up and ran a 29.7 on the third lap out of the pits. It was on the loose side with a hot RR tire, so I added 1/2% nose weight, and ran a 29.6. Added tape and air pressure for a qual run and ran a 29.58 the first time out. All this took about 10 laps. His setup is great - maybe better than mine. Did he need my setup? No. He would be slower with my setup. Would I have been doing him a favor by handing him my setup? No. He might have abandoned his setup that is already good. He needs more seat time, more laps, more attention to driving technique, and maybe more attention on his control setup. I worded my post exactly as intended. I hope it's a wake-up call for some people. Pat Dotson

On Apr 2, 11:15 am, "Quentin Queerbottom" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Pat, your seat thing is too expensive for what it is. Given that the bill of materials alone is $1000, and I have a hundred hours of work in the software it takes to run the thing, what do you suggest? I disagree with the "for what it is" part. You haven't been in it. It rocks. Sadly, most people can't buy one. They can't buy a Frex seat or an FD301 either. Pat Dotson

Byron Forbes wrote:

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> What a bunch of spoilt little children - gimmee gimmee gimmee. > > A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim > working shit out and you think he SHOULD just give it out to any spoilt > little pissant? > > FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly > lower the average IQ of some other genre. > >

Wow, you guys must be really bored to argue over such a stupid thing.

"Rat River Cemetary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jWQIj.21325$Cj7.16122@pd7urf2no...

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> Byron Forbes wrote: > > > What a bunch of spoilt little children - gimmee gimmee gimmee. > > > > A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim > > working shit out and you think he SHOULD just give it out to any spoilt > > little pissant? > > > > FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly > > lower the average IQ of some other genre. > > > > > > Wow, you guys must be really bored to argue over such a stupid thing.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd84/SIrdrinksalot2/trolltech.gif

A hundred hours? Good job rF modders don't charge! Anyway, over priced, imo. <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]... On Apr 2, 11:15 am, "Quentin Queerbottom" <[email hidden]> wrote: > Pat, your seat thing is too expensive for what it is. Given that the bill of materials alone is $1000, and I have a hundred hours of work in the software it takes to run the thing, what do you suggest? I disagree with the "for what it is" part. You haven't been in it. It rocks. Sadly, most people can't buy one. They can't buy a Frex seat or an FD301 either. Pat Dotson

"Rat River Cemetary" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:jWQIj.21325$Cj7.16122@pd7urf2no...

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> Byron Forbes wrote: > >> What a bunch of spoilt little children - gimmee gimmee gimmee. >> >> A person spends years of sim racing and hours on this particular sim >> working shit out and you think he SHOULD just give it out to any spoilt >> little pissant? >> >> FUCK OFF IDIOTS! (and by the way, this is NOW rude). Go and severly >> lower the average IQ of some other genre. > > Wow, you guys must be really bored to argue over such a stupid thing.

Yes, well clearly in your neck of the woods (Rat River Cemetary?) stupidity has been going unchallenged for decades!

"Byron Bend Over Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote rubbish that I've sniped. Byron, bend over and touch your toes. This is going to hurt you a lot more than it hurts me, boy!

"Quentin Queerbottom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yO4Jj.37049$[email hidden]... > > "Byron Bend Over Forbes" <[email hidden]> wrote rubbish that > I've sniped. > > Byron, bend over and touch your toes. This is going to hurt you a lot more > than it hurts me, boy! Did you learn that one from one of your many uncles did you? It really is pitiful to see the type of behavior that common monkeys default to when they entirely run out of intelligence (assuming they had any to begin with) - you stupid little witless girl! :)

Man, I was referring to the statements of Byron, and not to your specific "dilemma", or explanation of why you did what you did. You had your perfectly good reasons for not endulging the endless setup cravings out there, as you explained well enough later in the thread. I have absolutely no gripe with the content of your posts in this thread. I just thought Byron was over simplifying things just bit too much when he referred to the "only intelligent reasons". I am so tired of people who tries to impose cynicism on other people when this world is holding up nicely *in spite* of cynicism instead of *because* of it. I believe I can say that a "blunt refusal", to use my own words, are not in the gentleman tradition of the sport, but neither are the endless demands for it! And I am not to judge what is and what is not in the gentleman tradition, as there is no obligation in any direction in here. The total lack of this "gentleman" tradition on this worlds racing servers, is much more grave, annoying and totally repulsive. I'd rather see us bash out at each other here and bing gentlemen on the servers than the other way around. If nothing else, I tried to explain why it triggered such a harsh response, namely this gentleman tradition discrepancy of the original statement. ---A--- On 02.04.2008 16:34, * [email hidden] wrote:

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> On Apr 2, 3:51 am, Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote: >> Sportsmanship and gentlemanship goes hand in hand, and that is why such >> a blunt refusal triggered a harsh response. >> >> -A- > > You are focusing on one word, and ignoring the other 133 lines of the > post. > > Sportsmanship? > > I posted this same setup info on the ARCA RSC forum. A guy sent me an > email responding to that post asking if I'd take a look at his setup. > I told him to send it to me. He is apparently running 29.9's at > Nashville with it. I loaded it up and ran a 29.7 on the third lap out > of the pits. It was on the loose side with a hot RR tire, so I added > 1/2% nose weight, and ran a 29.6. Added tape and air pressure for a > qual run and ran a 29.58 the first time out. All this took about 10 > laps. > > His setup is great - maybe better than mine. > > Did he need my setup? No. He would be slower with my setup. > > Would I have been doing him a favor by handing him my setup? No. He > might have abandoned his setup that is already good. > > He needs more seat time, more laps, more attention to driving > technique, and maybe more attention on his control setup. > > I worded my post exactly as intended. I hope it's a wake-up call for > some people. > > Pat Dotson >

On Apr 4, 7:14 am, Asgeir Nesoen <[email hidden]> wrote: > Man, I was referring to the statements of Byron, and not to your > specific "dilemma" Thanks for the clarification. I also prefer an gentlemanly approach to sim racing. I haven't been heavily into oval sim racing since the NROS/TEN days with NASCAR 2. What I'm seeing now on the ARCA servers in terms of driving ettiquette is much improved over those days. There were always a large percentage of people on TEN who had no concept of car control. AFAIK or could tell them may have even been driving with keyboards back then. Now people seem to be in control of their vehicle, and understand how the whole thing is supposed to work. Another funny thing is, I don't remember people asking for setups back in the N2 days at all. Now asking for setups completely commonplace. I saw someone call the name "setup leeches" the other night :) It must be a N2003 thing, which I was never a part of. One thing to consider is, at least in the karting that I've done, people are usually pretty secretive about their setups. It's not unusual to find someone who will tell you what gearing or rear stagger they are running, but I have never seen or heard someone give away a complete setup to a direct competitor. I imagine the higher you go in real racing the more secretive it becomes. Pat Dotson

jason moyer wrote: > Developing your own setups is one of the skills of simracing. Not necessarily. Some people are good drivers with fast reactions but not good setup geeks. Just like in RL racing.

On Apr 15, 4:39 am, Rat River Cemetary <[email hidden]> wrote: > Not necessarily. Some people are good drivers with fast reactions but > not good setup geeks. Just like in RL racing. In RL racing, a driver who can't provide input into setup changes is almost completely useless. I can't think of anyone who has been a successful race driver and a bad test driver.

On 17 Apr, 00:53, jason moyer <[email hidden]> wrote:

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> On Apr 15, 4:39 am, Rat River Cemetary <[email hidden]> wrote: > > > Not necessarily. Some people are good drivers with fast reactions but > > not good setup geeks. Just like in RL racing. > > In RL racing, a driver who can't provide input into setup changes is > almost completely useless.  I can't think of anyone who has been a > successful race driver and a bad test driver.

Jim Clark.

On Apr 21, 8:30 am, Tony Whitley <[email hidden]> wrote: > Jim Clark. That's the one person I would have mentioned off the top of my head, although I wonder how true it is. It seems hard to believe that any successful Lotus driver could be a bad test driver, due to how sensitive Chapman's cars were to setups. On the other hand, test driving (at least in F1) didn't really come to the forefront as an essential skill until Jackie Stewart and Nicki Lauda as far as I can remember.

On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:42:47 -0700 (PDT), jason moyer <[email hidden]> wrote:

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>On Apr 21, 8:30�am, Tony Whitley <[email hidden]> >wrote: > >> Jim Clark. > >That's the one person I would have mentioned off the top of my head, >although I wonder how true it is. It seems hard to believe that any >successful Lotus driver could be a bad test driver, due to how >sensitive Chapman's cars were to setups. On the other hand, test >driving (at least in F1) didn't really come to the forefront as an >essential skill until Jackie Stewart and Nicki Lauda as far as I can >remember.

Ronnie Peterson was another who had a reputation as a bad test driver, but he was such a skilled driver that he just adjusted to whatever the problem was and drove around it. It's said that he used to infuriate Colin Chapman by being unable to provide any feedback whatsoever as to car behaviour and how to improve it. He also used to infuriate his teammate, Emerson Fittipaldi, by loading whatever setup EF had on his car and immediately going faster.

On Apr 21, 1:55 pm, [email hidden] wrote: > Ronnie Peterson was another who had a reputation as a bad test driver, > but he was such a skilled driver that he just adjusted to whatever the > problem was and drove around it. Yeah, that's another good one. I have a few books on Mario Andretti, and there are bits in there talking about Ronnie and his testing ineptitude (also about how well they got along, and how devestated Mario was the day after Monza 78). Apparently during their one year together, Mario would do his normal non-stop testing routine and Ronnie would jump in the car and be like "feels great Mario".

<[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

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> On Mon, 21 Apr 2008 05:42:47 -0700 (PDT), jason moyer > <[email hidden]> wrote: > >>On Apr 21, 8:30 am, Tony Whitley <[email hidden]> >>wrote: >> >>> Jim Clark. >> >>That's the one person I would have mentioned off the top of my head, >>although I wonder how true it is. It seems hard to believe that any >>successful Lotus driver could be a bad test driver, due to how >>sensitive Chapman's cars were to setups. On the other hand, test >>driving (at least in F1) didn't really come to the forefront as an >>essential skill until Jackie Stewart and Nicki Lauda as far as I can >>remember. > > Ronnie Peterson was another who had a reputation as a bad test driver, > but he was such a skilled driver that he just adjusted to whatever the > problem was and drove around it. It's said that he used to infuriate > Colin Chapman by being unable to provide any feedback whatsoever as to > car behaviour and how to improve it. He also used to infuriate his > teammate, Emerson Fittipaldi, by loading whatever setup EF had on his > car and immediately going faster. >

But isn't any good driver a good test driver? Even if he hasn't got a clue about setup/design, being able to drive the car at 10 10ths is obviously of most importance. Obviously any feedback from someone alleged to be cluey with setups would be worthless if they're only at 90% of that car/setup combo's potential. I'd say as an engineer that tyre temperatures and wear, not to mention lap times, would be a lot more important than anything that any driver is ever going to tell you. Any driver who can drive at 10 10ths and report basic oversteer/understeer and any other glaring problem, is a good test driver.

jason moyer wrote: > In RL racing, a driver who can't provide input into setup changes is > almost completely useless. I can't think of anyone who has been a > successful race driver and a bad test driver. > Tom Cruise.

"Dave Seven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:zCEPj.215821$pM4.50311@pd7urf1no...

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> jason moyer wrote: > >> In RL racing, a driver who can't provide input into setup changes is >> almost completely useless. I can't think of anyone who has been a >> successful race driver and a bad test driver. >> > > Tom Cruise.

Jean Alesi