GPL monaco

vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful (at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh.

> vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful > (at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh. It's warez, and you're complaining?! Sheesh! -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

> > vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful > > (at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh. > It's warez, and you're complaining?! Sheesh! yup. because the track will not have changed most likely when the REAL one is available. i doubt that they would repair a track so far into production. heck, you can barely stay on the street without going up on the sidewalk. two cars? forget it! don't get me wrong - all of the others are beautiful with the possible exception of zandvoort, but the monaco track is VERY substandard. 1. the 'ring 2. rouen 3. spa 4. watkins glen 5. monza 6. mosport 7. mexico 8. silverstone 9. kyalama 10. zandvoort 12. monaco

That's how narrow the track really was. Eric

Jay Wolfe wrote If your not happy GET LOST. *plonk* I mean, tell me what are the problems with it ? Too difficult for you ? Not enought realistic. Oh yeah <g> in 1967 you probably lived in Monaco. The track was THAT narrow in those year, too difficult for you to understand that ???? Oh and <g> can't you understand most of the building weren't constructed in 1967 ?? (Loew, all the buildings that are now between road and Marina, pool, etc... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> yup. because the track will not have changed most likely when the REAL > one is available. i doubt that they would repair a track so far into > production. When the game's released, then pass judgement. There's never been much room at Monaco for passing, then or now. Without the assistance of downforce, of course it's a tough track! An opinion I think many will not subscribe. -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

>vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful >(at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh. What did you expect a six-lane highway. Welcome to Monaco!! Matt Wilson

>> > vey disappointing. way too narrow to race > two cars? forget it! Just wondering which Monaco you fellows have seen before. Sounds like the real deal to me. Jake Myers Snake Racing TSP MIRacing "If we all thought the same, nobody would think"

>That's how narrow the track really was. And still IS! >Eric >>vey disappointing. way too narrow to race... Ken

Hey Jay, If you think Zandvoort was not done realistic, take a look at http://www.circuit-zandvoort.nl The screenshots I've seen are very,very realistic! I mean that's just the way it looks :-) Bart > > > vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful > > > (at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh. > > It's warez, and you're complaining?! Sheesh! > 12. monaco

One slight correction to that sentence, it should have read "_I_ caan barely stay on the street...". Be sure that thers are zipping around Monaco with no problem at all - now. It is difficult, it is a challenge and it does take practice. Lots and lots of practice. Isn't that part of the beauty of the sim though? Spa is number three on your list, and while Spa is indeed a jaw-dropping circuit (one of my personal faves), where would be the fun if all the tracks were wide-open, flowing, and 140mph+ average laps? Monaco in the sim mirrors Monaco in real life - impractical, ridiculous even, but a massive challenge for car and driver. As for two wide, since when have you _ever_ seen cars running two wide at Monaco? There is _room_ for two cars, but you won't be able to drive. Passing is done primarily under braking, and the driving before then is to get yourself into position to do that. John

100% right! Imho you really get rewarded for patience & fine driving! GP2, F1rs, Toca, etc are all (or only) about going as hard as you can. Gpl will probably be the first game in which you have to learn a perfect way of driving! Anyway, about Monaco and Spa: the city of Monaco has changed a lot the last 30 years. And if you look at GrandPrix the movie, anyone must admit that Spa is one of the top 5 track ALL TIME :-) My top 5 would be something like: 1. Nrnburgring 2. Clermont-Ferrand 3. Spa-Francorchamps 4. Zandvoort 5. Brands Hatch Bart > [..snip..] > Isn't that part of the beauty of the sim though? > John

following around Fri, 18 Sep 1998 04:27:21 GMT,: >>That's how narrow the track really was. >And still IS! >>Eric Looks narrow on the screen shots. GP2 didn't implement Monaco quite right. It was too wide.

John Wallace wrote Ah thanks... This is probably why Monaco will become a very good track IMHO for online racing. The track isn't that long, and with all the low speed cornering you risk less often to actually spin off the track. It's a little more forgiving than all the rest of the tracks I would say. I mean... just check out the Mirabeau/Station/Portier complex. It's incredibly slow, and you must use total concentration. I seriously think some corners has to be taken with a wheel on the sidewalk (exiting Mirabeau per example). I mean, Jay you just searched trouble... ALL the Papyrus tracks in GPL are the most sofisticated track layouts ever in a racing title, and IMHO are at least 1-2years ahead of any other company. I mean, it's just not track/grass/armco that you find in ALL the other racing games. At least if you would have a little more information to back you up, many of us actually 1) went to Monaco 2) Remember the 1967 Monaco GP 3) have pictures, text, movies, etc... about the tracks. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful > (at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh. Jay, I was lucky enough to see the real Monaco track in 1995 and it is incredible to think that people actually race F1 cars on those narrow streets. From the pictures I have seen it looks looks to me that the streets are somewhat wider now (not much, but a little) than they were in 1967. Taken on the whole, it looks pretty darn good to me <ggg.> All the best, Mike -- Michael S. Davis Creative Media-Works Computer/Audio/Video Convergence "from Creative minds spring Creative solutions." http://www.creativemedia-works.com Member, International Webmasters Association http://iwanet.org

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> >heck, you can barely stay on the street without going up on the > >sidewalk. > One slight correction to that sentence, it should have read "_I_ caan > barely stay on the street...". Be sure that thers are zipping around > Monaco with no problem at all - now. It is difficult, it is a > challenge and it does take practice. Lots and lots of practice. > Isn't that part of the beauty of the sim though? Spa is number three > on your list, and while Spa is indeed a jaw-dropping circuit (one of > my personal faves), where would be the fun if all the tracks were > wide-open, flowing, and 140mph+ average laps? Monaco in the sim > mirrors Monaco in real life - impractical, ridiculous even, but a > massive challenge for car and driver.

While watching Grand Prix the movie last weekend, I noticed that the cars exactly followed the line of the road as they s*** their way up the hill toward Massanet/***. In the (ahem) beta, it seems to be a "point and shoot" straight line up the hill. I have no idea which is the more accurate...given that most of the movie cars tended to be much less powerful 1 litre representations of GP cars...and Monaco was (I think) the first track they filmed at. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

LOL!!! "SUB-STANDARD"!!! ???? By whose measurements....yours?? Welcome to the real world of "round-the-houses" racing, pally. Where, to pass another car, you have to use a combination of strategy, skill, guile and the handling attributes of your car. Just a little but different to what you may be used to...but then so is Grand Prix Legends.

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> yup. because the track will not have changed most likely when the REAL one > is available. i doubt that they would repair a track so far into > production. heck, you can barely stay on the street without going up on the > sidewalk. two cars? forget it! don't get me wrong - all of the others are > beautiful with the possible exception of zandvoort, but the monaco track is > VERY substandard. > 1. the 'ring > 2. rouen > 3. spa > 4. watkins glen > 5. monza > 6. mosport > 7. mexico > 8. silverstone > 9. kyalama > 10. zandvoort > 12. monaco

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Well said, John. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

And still is !!

> LOL!!! > "SUB-STANDARD"!!! ???? > By whose measurements....yours?? yup. i like the look of GP2's monaco much better. the GPL version looks like a bad cartoon. i have zero problems with the circuit (despite my sucking badly at it), but the artwork looks like a rush job. okay, brucey - which track do you think LOOKS the worst? it sure ain't spa, the 'ring or rouen.

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> > vey disappointing. way too narrow to race and only SLIGHTLY beautiful > > (at least when compared to the 'ring). sigh. > Jay, > I was lucky enough to see the real Monaco track in 1995 and it is > incredible to think that people actually race F1 cars on those narrow > streets. From the pictures I have seen it looks looks to me that the > streets are somewhat wider now (not much, but a little) than they were in > 1967. Taken on the whole, it looks pretty darn good to me <ggg.> All the > best, Mike

hey, mike. you forgot to flame me! j thanks for the insightful comments.

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> John Wallace wrote > >One slight correction to that sentence, it should have read "_I_ caan > >barely stay on the street...". Be sure that thers are zipping around > >Monaco with no problem at all - now. It is difficult, it is a > >challenge and it does take practice. Lots and lots of practice. > Ah thanks... This is probably why Monaco will become a very good track IMHO > for online racing. The track isn't that long, and with all the low speed > cornering you risk less often to actually spin off the track. It's a little > more forgiving than all the rest of the tracks I would say. > I mean... just check out the Mirabeau/Station/Portier complex. It's > incredibly slow, and you must use total concentration. I seriously think > some corners has to be taken with a wheel on the sidewalk (exiting Mirabeau > per example). > I mean, Jay you just searched trouble... ALL the Papyrus tracks in GPL are > the most sofisticated track layouts ever in a racing title, and IMHO are at > least 1-2years ahead of any other company. I mean, it's just not > track/grass/armco that you find in ALL the other racing games. > At least if you would have a little more information to back you up, many of > us actually 1) went to Monaco 2) Remember the 1967 Monaco GP 3) have > pictures, text, movies, etc... about the tracks.

yeah, thanks for jumping down my throat, french-speaking person. i still say that monaco looks poor in comparison with the other included tracks. i like monaco as a circuit probably tops. that is why i am disappointed. if they were going to drop the ball on a track, why not mexico or somewhere else that i don't care about? the monaco IN THE WAREZ version is the worst of the bunch. of course, i have to withhold final judgement after the "real" one is finally out. instead of crucifying me on my selection of monaco as a bad track in GPL, why don't y'all tell the planet what you're least fav is. for what it is worth, i would rather do a few laps at the 'ring than sleep with any of your wives.

>for what it is worth, i would rather do a few laps at the 'ring than sleep >with >any of your wives. Jeez, what a juvenile. It appears as though you expected that you could toss a few swipes at a much-admired and -anticipated sim and NOT get a little heat for it? What a doofus.

> I > Jeez, what a juvenile. AM NOT!

I like the way you say that... As if it was a bad thing to be french speaking... This is pure racism. I sincerely hope this is not what was intended, and if it wasn't, I'd recommend adding some emoticons to your comments in the future to avoid confusion. We, the french-speaking people, make huge efforts to speak the language of the majority on the internet, this doesn't mean we aren't proud of our culture. I had to spit that out, hope I didn't go out of bounds... Oh, and sorry if you weren't implying that being french-speaking is a bad thing. A. Renault

Oh, right-on, Jay-boy! Naturally the people at Sierra/Papyrus should have consulted *YOU* about what should be included and what shouldn't. !!

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> that is why i am disappointed. if they were > going to drop the ball on a track, why not mexico or somewhere else that i don't > care about? the monaco IN THE WAREZ version is the worst of the bunch. of > course, i have to withhold final judgement after the "real" one is finally out. > for what it is worth, i would rather do a few laps at the 'ring than sleep with > any of your wives.

No doubt the wives of the world are heaving a big sigh of relief over *THAT* statement! -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

I don't think any circuit "look the worst", Jay. Each has it's own character and each has its own appearance. But then I haven't seen any circuits (other than the Glen and Monza) up close, only through screen shots. Even so, the shots of Monaco look great, as do those taken at other circuits.

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> > LOL!!! > > "SUB-STANDARD"!!! ???? > > By whose measurements....yours?? > yup. i like the look of GP2's monaco much better. the GPL version looks like a > bad cartoon. i have zero problems with the circuit (despite my sucking badly at > it), but the artwork looks like a rush job. > > Welcome to the real world of "round-the-houses" racing, pally. Where, > > to pass another car, you have to use a combination of strategy, skill, > > guile and the handling attributes of your car. > > Just a little but different to what you may be used to...but then so is > > Grand Prix Legends. > okay, brucey - which track do you think LOOKS the worst? it sure ain't spa, the > 'ring or rouen.

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>I don't think any circuit "look the worst", Jay. Each has it's own >character and each has its own appearance. huh? if you follow this type of logic you must also feel that there are no bad movies - just ones that "have their own character and appearance". you're trying to tell me that you couldn't possibly like one track over another? hogwash. GPL's nurburgring = gunga din or grand prix GPL's monaco = lambada: the forbidden dance or that movie where burt reynolds wears a chicken suit and races stock cars. >But then I haven't seen any >circuits (other than the Glen and Monza) up close, only through screen >shots. >Even so, the shots of Monaco look great, as do those taken at other >circuits. really, brucey. your complete blind allegiance to sierra/GPL doesn't seem capable of handling even minute criticism and reeks of cultish behavior. please don't go "jihad" on me. : - /

I suspect he was paraphrasing from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." "Now be gone, before we taunt you a second time!" Kurt > >yeah, thanks for jumping down my throat, french-speaking person. i still say

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> I like the way you say that... As if it was a bad thing to be french > speaking... This is pure racism. I sincerely hope this is not what > was intended, and if it wasn't, I'd recommend adding some emoticons to > your comments in the future to avoid confusion. We, the > french-speaking people, make huge efforts to speak the language of the > majority on the internet, this doesn't mean we aren't proud of our > culture. > I had to spit that out, hope I didn't go out of bounds... Oh, and > sorry if you weren't implying that being french-speaking is a bad > thing. > A. Renault

Why? The fact that the movie got made at all means that someone liked it, even if that was only the producer or director. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion doesn't make it hogwash. Most of the current Grand Prix drivers dislike Monaco, and yet the fans, FIA and TV love it - so who's talking hogwash? Cheers! John

Whatever you like, Jay.

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> huh? if you follow this type of logic you must also feel that there > are no bad movies - just ones that "have their own > character and appearance". you're trying to tell me that you couldn't > possibly like one track over another? hogwash. > GPL's nurburgring = gunga din or grand prix > GPL's monaco = lambada: the forbidden dance or that movie where burt > reynolds wears a chicken suit and races stock cars. > >But then I haven't seen any > >circuits (other than the Glen and Monza) up close, only through > screen > >shots. > >Even so, the shots of Monaco look great, as do those taken at other > >circuits. > really, brucey. your complete blind allegiance to sierra/GPL doesn't > seem capable of handling even minute criticism and reeks of > cultish behavior. please don't go "jihad" on me. : - /

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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> >huh? if you follow this type of logic you must also feel that there are no bad movies > >- just ones that "have their own > >character and appearance". you're trying to tell me that you couldn't possibly like > >one track over another? hogwash. > Why? > The fact that the movie got made at all means that someone liked it, > even if that was only the producer or director.

my point exactly. O-P-I-N-I-O-N. not every single person likes every single thing. this is called "opinion". my "opinion" is that the GPL monaco track is not good. period. from what i gather, brucey-bruce would list all of the tracks as his favorite. there certainly wouldn't be a last place on his list because that would mean that he cared less for it. correct. but to NOT have an opinion is hogwash. huh? cheers to you as well. j

at least SOMEONE got it. ; - )

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> I suspect he was paraphrasing from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." > "Now be gone, before we taunt you a second time!" > Kurt > > >yeah, thanks for jumping down my throat, french-speaking person. i still > say > > I like the way you say that... As if it was a bad thing to be french > > speaking... This is pure racism. I sincerely hope this is not what > > was intended, and if it wasn't, I'd recommend adding some emoticons to > > your comments in the future to avoid confusion. We, the > > french-speaking people, make huge efforts to speak the language of the > > majority on the internet, this doesn't mean we aren't proud of our > > culture. > > I had to spit that out, hope I didn't go out of bounds... Oh, and > > sorry if you weren't implying that being french-speaking is a bad > > thing. > > A. Renault

Ok, ok! I already apologized in case I misinterpreted your comments... Sorry again... I'd better go out and rent me some Monthy Python videos, heck I'll rent the whole collection... For those of you who don't know, there's a lot of emotion over the language debate here in Quebec. Now you've been warned! But rest assured, the French Police is keeping an eye on you guys! Now I think I'll just crawl under the rug for a while... A. Renault

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>I suspect he was paraphrasing from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail." >"Now be gone, before we taunt you a second time!" >Kurt >> On Tue, 22 Sep 1998 12:56:47 -0700, Jay Wolfe >> >yeah, thanks for jumping down my throat, french-speaking person. i

still >say >> I like the way you say that... As if it was a bad thing to be french >> speaking... This is pure racism. I sincerely hope this is not what Kids, kids, kids...Let's be nice. And French is a race? :)

>Kids, kids, kids...Let's be nice. And French is a race? Errr... Couldn't find the right word in english at that moment... Maybe discrimination would've been a better choice, but not quite right... Anyway maybe we're not a race, but we sure know how to race and win! ;o) A. Renault

> Out of the two available under the demo, I prefer Watkins Glen over > Monza, but only because I like a mix of elevation changes, slow and fast > corners and straight bits. well, the full-blown MONZA should at least make it a closer second. the graphics are much improved over the demo version - more signage, lush green stuff, etc. only two more weeks or so. i've got $100 for the first guy that comes out with a converter or car set that allows NASCAR stocks to rumble through the streets of MONACO and scare the bejeesus out of the locals! sacrilege can be fun. j

> Ok, ok! I already apologized in case I misinterpreted your > comments... Sorry again... I'd better go out and rent me some Monthy > Python videos, heck I'll rent the whole collection... You just have to get Monty Python and the Holy Grail. As soon as you see a big castle, you'll understand.. :) "Your Mother was a Hamster and your Father smelled of elderberries" -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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> > Ok, ok! I already apologized in case I misinterpreted your > > comments... Sorry again... I'd better go out and rent me some Monthy > > Python videos, heck I'll rent the whole collection... > You just have to get Monty Python and the Holy Grail. As soon as you > see a big castle, you'll understand.. :) > "Your Mother was a Hamster and your Father smelled of elderberries"

"now, go away you second-hand electric donkey-bottom biter!"

You were speaking about the graphics and the appearance of the circuit, Jay. In that respect I have no favourite. I have always liked Papyrus' graphics. However, if you want to raise the point of which circuit, IN MY OPINION, is the one I prefer to drive on, I would have to say that I have no idea. Out of the two available under the demo, I prefer Watkins Glen over Monza, but only because I like a mix of elevation changes, slow and fast corners and straight bits. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

snip > i've got $100 for the first guy that comes out with a converter or car set > that allows NASCAR stocks to rumble through the streets of MONACO and scare > the bejeesus out of the locals! sacrilege can be fun. Better yet, how about driving the Lotus on the Nascar ovals??? Uff! l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Yes, that was my understanding - and his opinion is wrong why exactly? To think that all tracks are equally tantalising is an opinion. Sorry, which word didn't you understand? Cheers! John

Well......the French Grand Prix is. > Kids, kids, kids...Let's be nice. And French is a race? > :) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

"I fart in your general direction"! > "Your Mother was a Hamster and your Father smelled of elderberries" > -- -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> Better yet, how about driving the Lotus on the Nascar ovals??? Uff! Brabhams and Eagles at Bristol, oh my! ;) -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com/ Extinct Track Archive - http://www.simproject.com/eta/ * Switch confused.net with concentric.net to reply...Confused-yet? *

wow. i don't know what track they used in 1967, but it would definitely be hard to find a nicer circuit than this one - great elevation changes, 5th gear turns, brake-slamming hairpins, etc. anybody that can break 2:00 here is a he-man.

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> Well......the French Grand Prix is. > > Kids, kids, kids...Let's be nice. And French is a race? > > :)

> > Better yet, how about driving the Lotus on the Nascar ovals??? Uff! > Brabhams and Eagles at Bristol, oh my! ;) No, no, Talladega, Michigan...oh, gotta stop now! ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

A couple of the beta team are blushing their thanks (I do not number among them however...!). Cheers! John

Just exactly who cursed you Jay! :) > at least SOMEONE got it. ; - )

> but only because I like a mix of elevation changes, slow and fast > corners and straight bits. Bruce, your letting us in on your *** idiosynchracies again?

The French GP was held on the pretzel-shaped Le Mans-Bugatti circuit in 1967. This is the circuit that gave rise to the term "Mickey Mouse track" after Jack Brabhams' derisive description of it! :o) Thank your lucky stars that the Papyrus people decided to find something else worthy of our driving talents! The Rouen circuit was last used for a French GP in 1968 and is certainly a far more enjoyable and challenging track that Le Mans-Bugatti ever was. Papyrus could also have chosen the other major French road circuit, Reims, but whilst fast it is not as challenging as Rouen. If you want to see some further info, including photos and a circuit map, visit the site shown below. Cheers! > wow. i don't know what track they used in 1967, -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>The French GP was held on the pretzel-shaped Le Mans-Bugatti circuit in >1967. This is the circuit that gave rise to the term "Mickey Mouse >track" after Jack Brabhams' derisive description of it! :o) >Thank your lucky stars that the Papyrus people decided to find something >else worthy of our driving talents! You mean, Rouen is one loooong straight? :-) Remco

Not quite, Remco! But if Papyrus have reproduced it properly, there is a l-o-o-o-ng "straightish" section across the 'top' that joins the two legs of the Vee.

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> >The French GP was held on the pretzel-shaped Le Mans-Bugatti circuit in > >1967. This is the circuit that gave rise to the term "Mickey Mouse > >track" after Jack Brabhams' derisive description of it! :o) > >Thank your lucky stars that the Papyrus people decided to find something > >else worthy of our driving talents! > You mean, Rouen is one loooong straight? :-) > Remco

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> "I fart in your general direction"! "You son of a silly person" Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN