Need for Speed III: realistic reflections...??? Hahaha!

Just a little remark (on what is still a great game): much is said (here and there) about the great reflections on the car: 'You can really see the surroundings on it! Wow! Awesome! How did they do that? Very realistic!' Well, look again. In the demo you can clearly see the reflection is nothing else than a single rotating texture projected on the car. When you pass the rocks or when you drive through the tunnel, you still see the same trees on the car! Ha! Realistic! Gimme a break! It's a cheap trick! It looks nice though, and it doens't make the game worse. Just wondered if anybody else noticed this already. BTW I always use the bumper (or in-car) view, so... Jeroen van Engelenjoven

Yup, I noticed this pretty soon. Not immedialtly, since I also use the bumper cam, but when I first switched to the heli cam I did notice it. It is a bit weird, but it still looks cool. Now we have something to look forward to in the NFS4!? // Johan

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> Just a little remark (on what is still a great game): much is said (here and > there) about the great reflections on the car: 'You can really see the > surroundings on it! Wow! Awesome! How did they do that? Very realistic!' > Well, look again. In the demo you can clearly see the reflection is nothing > else than a single rotating texture projected on the car. When you pass the > rocks or when you drive through the tunnel, you still see the same trees on > the car! Ha! Realistic! Gimme a break! It's a cheap trick! It looks nice > though, and it doens't make the game worse. Just wondered if anybody else > noticed this already. BTW I always use the bumper (or in-car) view, so... > Jeroen van Engelenjoven

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> Yup, I noticed this pretty soon. Not immedialtly, since I also use the > bumper cam, but when I first switched to the heli cam I did notice it. > It is a bit weird, but it still looks cool. Now we have something to > look forward to in the NFS4!? > // Johan > > Just a little remark (on what is still a great game): much is said (here and > > there) about the great reflections on the car: 'You can really see the > > surroundings on it! Wow! Awesome! How did they do that? Very realistic!' > > Well, look again. In the demo you can clearly see the reflection is nothing > > else than a single rotating texture projected on the car. When you pass the > > rocks or when you drive through the tunnel, you still see the same trees on > > the car! Ha! Realistic! Gimme a break! It's a cheap trick! It looks nice > > though, and it doens't make the game worse. Just wondered if anybody else > > noticed this already. BTW I always use the bumper (or in-car) view, so... > > Jeroen van Engelenjoven

Well, it's the nature of environment mapping. To do true reflections would require a ray-tracing engine, which is a bit beyond the scope of current accelerators (and not worth the hassle, if you ask me. It's a lot more difficult to make a ray-traced scene look good than a ray-casted one). -- ______ .~. Shrike /V\ L I N U X ______ // \\ >Phear the Penguin< /( )\ ^^-^^ 'It's going to look pretty good, then, isn't it,' said War, testily, 'the One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocralypse.' -Terry Pratchett, "Sourcery"

> Well, it's the nature of environment mapping. To do true reflections > would require a ray-tracing engine, which is a bit beyond the scope of > current accelerators (and not worth the hassle, if you ask me. It's a > lot more difficult to make a ray-traced scene look good than a > ray-casted one). There's nothing that prevents them from updating the bitmap that they use for environment mapping on the fly. It would obviously be pretty expensive, computationally, but the next step definitely isn't full-blown raytracing. -Chris ----------------- All opinions expressed herein are my own, and in no way reflect those of my employer.

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> > Well, it's the nature of environment mapping. To do true reflections > > would require a ray-tracing engine, which is a bit beyond the scope of > > current accelerators (and not worth the hassle, if you ask me. It's a > > lot more difficult to make a ray-traced scene look good than a > > ray-casted one). > There's nothing that prevents them from updating the > bitmap that they use for environment mapping on the fly. > It would obviously be pretty expensive, computationally, > but the next step definitely isn't full-blown raytracing.

Hell, didn't Screamer 2 map a false-reflection onto the roof of the car? This has been around a while, hasn't it?

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> > Well, it's the nature of environment mapping. To do true reflections > > would require a ray-tracing engine, which is a bit beyond the scope of > > current accelerators (and not worth the hassle, if you ask me. It's a > > lot more difficult to make a ray-traced scene look good than a > > ray-casted one). > There's nothing that prevents them from updating the > bitmap that they use for environment mapping on the fly. > It would obviously be pretty expensive, computationally, > but the next step definitely isn't full-blown raytracing.

Hmmm... I guess they could grab the framebuffer and use that for the environment mapping, although you could probably see the car reflected on itself... Maybe they could have a loop of different environment maps for different areas, and change them at transition points... I guess you're right, and they can still cheat their way for a bit longer before going to full-blown raytracing. Still, the cars in NFSIII are *much* too shiny. :) -- ______ .~. Shrike /V\ L I N U X ______ // \\ >Phear the Penguin< /( )\ ^^-^^ 'It's going to look pretty good, then, isn't it,' said War, testily, 'the One Horseman and Three Pedestrians of the Apocralypse.' -Terry Pratchett, "Sourcery"

How long are you seriously going to be impressed by this effect, though? Wow, there's the cycling bit-map of the tree and the rock again. ;) Hmmm, I first noticed this fake environment mapping effect in Screamer2 I think. Could be wrong. -Chris (damn you, you have my signature) ;)

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> > Well, it's the nature of environment mapping. To do true reflections > > would require a ray-tracing engine, which is a bit beyond the scope of > > current accelerators (and not worth the hassle, if you ask me. It's a > > lot more difficult to make a ray-traced scene look good than a > > ray-casted one). > There's nothing that prevents them from updating the > bitmap that they use for environment mapping on the fly. > It would obviously be pretty expensive, computationally, > but the next step definitely isn't full-blown raytracing. > -Chris > ----------------- > All opinions expressed herein are my own, and in no way reflect those > of my employer.

Yep, but I'm not concentrating on t he car, so... -- "I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else." -Daria "It says 'Spinach' on the outside, but we all know it's whoop-ass!" -Me, on Popeye http://come.to/amgd - The alt.music.green-day Page snip

: Hmmm... I guess they could grab the framebuffer and use that for the : environment mapping, although you could probably see the car reflected : on itself... Maybe they could have a loop of different environment maps : for different areas, and change them at transition points... Sega Rally 2 does this effect, and I think it looks pretty good! : I guess you're right, and they can still cheat their way for a bit : longer before going to full-blown raytracing. Still, the cars in NFSIII : are *much* too shiny. :) You can't blame them for going for maximum glitz, as that's what seems to attract the kiddies (ooh, shiny). Personally, I'd like to drive a beat-up, rusty, primer and auto-filler-covered Chevy Corsica with "WASH ME" written on the dusty backglass! Downloadable cars, maybe? Martin Nigel Mansell RIP! No, I do not drive a Corsica in real life!

Uh, the Playstation version DOES reflect the environment on the car's surface. For instance, the lights of a tunnel, or the trees. -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ COMING SOON: Everything you wanted to know about the classic 80's movie, "Valley Girl" http://www.valley-girl.com/ Remove "spam-jammer" to reply Peace, love and Monkeemobiles, Galley

> How long are you seriously going to be impressed by this effect, > though? Wow, there's the cycling bit-map of the tree and the rock again. > ;) > Hmmm, I first noticed this fake environment mapping effect in Screamer2 > I think. Could be wrong. They don't necessarily have to cycle through static bitmaps either. They could render the scene onto the interior of a sphere from the point of view of the car, and then use that as the environment map. I mean, they *have* a software renderer, so it's definitely within their power to do, and I'm sure it could be a pretty low-resolution image and still look pretty good. I'm not saying they *should* have done this; I know nothing about how they're doing their rendering or what kind of performance hit it implies, but it's definitely something that could be done, and would be pretty damn cool, IMO. And while I'm posting...I'm not so sure that the cars are too shiny. Watch some real cars, and even those without a fresh coat of wax have a *lot* of reflection. But I agree that it doesn't look quite right. Maybe they don't vary the amount of reflection or something, so it comes off too uniform...tough to pin down what's not right about it, though. -Chris (mwhahaha, it's mine! mine I tell you!) ----------------- All opinions expressed herein are my own, and in no way reflect those of my employer.

Perhaps this is their way of giving you the idea that you just bought the car! The "Sorry officer, this is my first ride in my brand new car and I just HAD to try it!" effect. And that's why the officer says (After having chased you for 5km with 4 cop cars, of which 3 crashed) I'm giving you a warning, just this time! :-) Would they really say that? I don't think so! // Johan.

> How long are you seriously going to be impressed by this effect, > though? Wow, there's the cycling bit-map of the tree and the rock again. > ;) Then I'm lucky, that I don't like flying behind the car I drive. From the ***pit you can't see this... ;^) l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

So you're actually driving without seeing any of the other cars? I bet you drive some good times! :-) // Johan

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> > How long are you seriously going to be impressed by this effect, > > though? Wow, there's the cycling bit-map of the tree and the rock again. > > ;) > Then I'm lucky, that I don't like flying behind the car I drive. From > the >***pit you can't see this... ;^) > l8er > ronny > -- > Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, > kiddo?" > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> So you're actually driving without seeing any of the other cars? I bet > you drive some good times! :-) In the demo I still have some problems staying close enough to the other cars to see the fancy reflections... ;^) But thanks for being optimistic about my driving talents! l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 10:59:39 +0200, "Jeroen van Engelenhoven"

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>Just a little remark (on what is still a great game): much is said (here and >there) about the great reflections on the car: 'You can really see the >surroundings on it! Wow! Awesome! How did they do that? Very realistic!' >Well, look again. In the demo you can clearly see the reflection is nothing >else than a single rotating texture projected on the car. When you pass the >rocks or when you drive through the tunnel, you still see the same trees on >the car! Ha! Realistic! Gimme a break! It's a cheap trick! It looks nice >though, and it doens't make the game worse. Just wondered if anybody else >noticed this already. BTW I always use the bumper (or in-car) view, so... >Jeroen van Engelenjoven

hrm...I dont recall anyone saying there realistic and there not exactly new. They where in NFS2 SE as well. the effect is actually the most often used, even in profesional renderings. Even the arcade racers (yes..even segas all powerfull model 3) use the same trick, its called an environment map. To actually reflect the true surroundings you would have to raytrace and no 3d card..glint or not..could do that in real time at a passable frame rate. so they take a seperate teaxture... usually a good representation of the surroudnings..and make it a nice panoramic oval wich invisiable to the user, is put around each car and then the glossy shell mirrors that. if you tried to mirrior the true surroundings all the rays of light boncing off of each pixle would have to be calculated. (another note, in 3d games when you see things like water reflections and stuff.. its not usually a true reflection..but everything you see flipped upside down, wich itself can lead to slow down since your rendering alot of polygons twice now.. esp on big bodys of water.) Atleast now in NFS3 its a new more accurate map for each map..in NFS2 se it was teh same map for every track. One thing i dont get is the tunnels. they should have made a new map for that. I remember screamer used a new tunnel map for its windows. Another thing too... why the hell did they make the map stationary? It oes look fake when I'm cruzin in a straight path at 140mph and the teaxture dosnt move on my car. it only moves when your turning and suff.

I assume you are all talking about the Demo, perhaps to keep the size of the file down then they didn't include all of the texture maps........ A possibility maybe.

On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 22:41:08 +1000, "Peter Cook"

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>>hrm...I dont recall anyone saying there realistic and there not >>exactly new. They where in NFS2 SE as well. the effect is actually the >>most often used, even in profesional renderings. Even the arcade >>racers (yes..even segas all powerfull model 3) use the same trick, its >>called an environment map. To actually reflect the true surroundings >>you would have to raytrace and no 3d card..glint or not..could do that >>in real time at a passable frame rate. so they take a seperate >>teaxture... usually a good representation of the surroudnings..and >>make it a nice panoramic oval wich invisiable to the user, is put >>around each car and then the glossy shell mirrors that. if you tried >>to mirrior the true surroundings all the rays of light boncing off of >>each pixle would have to be calculated. (another note, in 3d games >>when you see things like water reflections and stuff.. its not usually >>a true reflection..but everything you see flipped upside down, wich >>itself can lead to slow down since your rendering alot of polygons >>twice now.. esp on big bodys of water.) >>Atleast now in NFS3 its a new more accurate map for each map..in NFS2 >>se it was teh same map for every track. One thing i dont get is the >>tunnels. they should have made a new map for that. I remember screamer >>used a new tunnel map for its windows. Another thing too... why the >>hell did they make the map stationary? It oes look fake when I'm >>cruzin in a straight path at 140mph and the teaxture dosnt move on my >>car. it only moves when your turning and suff. >I assume you are all talking about the Demo, perhaps to keep the size of the >file down then they didn't include all of the texture maps........ >A possibility maybe.

huh? all the teaxture maps? of what? and no..I have the actual final cd...

Don't worry about it! Soon you won't see the reflections because you're too far in front of the other car. But for now you can still see the reflections on the cop cars. Not from too close I hope :-). // Johan

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> > So you're actually driving without seeing any of the other cars? I bet > > you drive some good times! :-) > In the demo I still have some problems staying close enough to the other > cars to see the fancy reflections... ;^) But thanks for being optimistic > about my driving talents! > l8er > ronny > -- > How to get rid of censorship in German game releases > <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

I seem to find the reflections slightly disproportional to the overall lighting of the scenery. A tad too "shiny" even in shadows, but then I could be wrong. Mansfield