GPL/demo comment

Yep; I liked it, too. Mostly because I can't take the car from 90% the rest of the way to a razor's edge. I'm for a spec race league. Anyone else? Michael.

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> As simple as the GPL demo is, it has a very nice feature: that Everyone > drives exactly the same car. This makes comparisons of driving dependent > solely upon the driver so we could all learn better driving techniques. It > was always clear, if someone was faster, they Do have a better driving > technique. I guess it is sort of a forces "spec" racing series. > As wonderful as the full blown version will be, we will no longer be able > to simply compare times, without going into painful detail about the exact > car setup. I guess racing against each other on the net will certainly > make up for it, but for those of us who just drive a few laps before > bedtime, we simpletons will lose the ability to see, simply, who the best > driver is (going by time only.) > -- > Thanks, > Kurt, who's sick of spam. Change "server" to "servr."

As simple as the GPL demo is, it has a very nice feature: that Everyone drives exactly the same car. This makes comparisons of driving dependent solely upon the driver so we could all learn better driving techniques. It was always clear, if someone was faster, they Do have a better driving technique. I guess it is sort of a forces "spec" racing series. As wonderful as the full blown version will be, we will no longer be able to simply compare times, without going into painful detail about the exact car setup. I guess racing against each other on the net will certainly make up for it, but for those of us who just drive a few laps before bedtime, we simpletons will lose the ability to see, simply, who the best driver is (going by time only.) -- Thanks, Kurt, who's sick of spam. Change "server" to "servr."

drives exactly the same car. This makes comparisons of >driving dependent solely upon the driver so we could all learn better >driving techniques. It was always clear, if someone was faster, they >Do have a better driving technique I appreciate your comments, but I disagree slightly. What type of controller are you using? I am doing times only a second or so out of the fastest time set by Dave Mansell on the Monza and Watkins Glen tracks (I'll send proof if req!) but I'm using a ***worn out Thrustmaster F1 wheel with T1 pedals. Both have terribly bad spikes that are hard to 'dial' out but are managable. The wheel has a bit a slip when you take it from lock to lock as per all of their damn wheels (I had the T1 same prob). Dave on the other hand apparently enjoys the total racing experience in one of Australia's Hyperstimulators, one of the best sim***pit/controllers around. People using this system don't have to mount it to a desk, have the right seating position and a close to unbreakable controller. This is not sour grapes, I want to get one in the near future and I am so convinced that this is the only difference. So while the cars at present in the demo are 100% compatible the difference in many of the times is in what controller you use! Comments? Regards, Matt Wilson

I agree. I like race sims better if you can't do any setup at all. I was even disapointed when NFS2 had some setup options and that was only high, low and stock! I don't believe that 'real' race drivers do their car setup themselves. Or do they? It bothered me especially in NFS, because that's a sim with production cars. I mean, if you'd buy an expensive car like that, would you really start messing with it and changing the break bias or anything? I know I wouldn't. Perhaps the time has come that you need to hire an engineer for your race sim :-) // Johan.

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> As simple as the GPL demo is, it has a very nice feature: that Everyone > drives exactly the same car. This makes comparisons of driving dependent > solely upon the driver so we could all learn better driving techniques. It > was always clear, if someone was faster, they Do have a better driving > technique. I guess it is sort of a forces "spec" racing series. > As wonderful as the full blown version will be, we will no longer be able > to simply compare times, without going into painful detail about the exact > car setup. I guess racing against each other on the net will certainly > make up for it, but for those of us who just drive a few laps before > bedtime, we simpletons will lose the ability to see, simply, who the best > driver is (going by time only.) > -- > Thanks, > Kurt, who's sick of spam. Change "server" to "servr."

I strongly disagree with the above. You also need to consider that not everyone has the same driving style nor indeed are as adaptable in driving style. You may ultimately be a better driver than me, but if the setup in the demo better suits my driving style, OR if I can better adapt my style to fit it then I will be shown as the better driver. This would be misleading. It is practically impossible to compare who is the best "driver", in fact the only way to do so would be by first developing the perfect setup for each (removing setup differences by giving each their perfect setup rather than forcing one upon them which may suit one better than the other). Having done so you could then let them try to get the most out of themselves in a car which gives them confidence and doesn't force a change in driving style. That would tell you the better "driver". Cheers! John

I'm not too sure about that. One of the other testers drives with a joystick, and has a faster time around Watkins Glen than the gamestats record and indeed all the other testers. Some of the Papy guys also use 'sticks and are very, very fast. It's just a case of getting used to the controller. Cheers! John

Spot on John, As a prime example look how often real F1 drivers struggle with their team-mates setup if forced to use their car. Its also why downloading setups for sims from the net seldom leads to the improvements anticipated as driving styles are so diverse. Tony

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>>As simple as the GPL demo is, it has a very nice feature: that Everyone >>drives exactly the same car. This makes comparisons of driving dependent >>solely upon the driver so we could all learn better driving techniques. It >>was always clear, if someone was faster, they Do have a better driving >>technique. >I strongly disagree with the above. You also need to consider that not >everyone has the same driving style nor indeed are as adaptable in >driving style. You may ultimately be a better driver than me, but if >the setup in the demo better suits my driving style

> I agree. I like race sims better if you can't do any setup at all. If you can't set the car up its not a sim b/c this is a HUGE part of the real thing at the top levels of racing setting up the car is THE thing that seperates best from the rest. Do u really think Jeff Gordon can drive in circles better than anyone else? No. He wins all the time b/c he gets the suspension of his car *Perfectly* hooked up to the racing line. Watch a WC race real close and u will be able to see this. When the guys with the same car in the back are sliping and sliding Gordons' car stays solid. This is b/c of his amazing ability to set his car up perfectly. On www.speedcenter.com last year Alex Z. said setting up the car is everything to him, he drives slow untill he gets the setup right then if he gets it hooked up perfectly he can drive as fast as he wants. After the race in japan this year Rahal said his car was, "on rails" twice in a 1 min intervew. This means the same thing, the car feels like it is on rails when the setup fits the driver and track perfectly well I guess u could say that but it dosen't mean anything b/c Cars in NFS and other arcade games are not used for racing in real life, they are showroom items only.Ask any real racer if he would rather have a day to race a 125cc shifter kart at Mid Ohio or drive a $500,000 car through school zones at 20mph and u will see what I mean No less then Ray Evernham said that a setup is made from driver comments and driver suggestions. The driver is most responsible for setting up the car, not the engineer, at least in WC and CART (this might not be true in modern day F1)

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> // Johan. > > As simple as the GPL demo is, it has a very nice feature: that > Everyone > > drives exactly the same car. This makes comparisons of driving > dependent > > solely upon the driver so we could all learn better driving > techniques. It > > was always clear, if someone was faster, they Do have a better > driving > > technique. I guess it is sort of a forces "spec" racing series.

a spec racing series is one where chassis, engine, ect are the same, not setup - unless you are talking about the lowest level "improved touring" SCCA races not at all. As with ICR2 and GP2 the fastest drivers will probably let their setups be known so you can just download a fast setup/replay, and try to match the replay with the setup. Of course this dosen't usually work b/c u need a setup that fits you as much as it fits the track, as sombody else has said in response to this thread . . .L8er

We clearly have different views on this subject. I won't argue with you about it, because it's just a difference in taste. You like to adjust the car to your driving, I like to adjust my driving to the car. I bet you don't like NFS at all, do you? It's my favorite, because it has different cars (almost) without any setup possibilities. The cars are modelled really well, which gives each car it's own characteristic handling. So the issue in this sort of driving sim is getting to know the car really well, getting to know the track really well, and then adjust your driving in such a way that you can move the car perfectly over that track. The thing that I find most important about driving sims is that the car's handling must be as realistic as possible. NFS achieves this goal better than any other sim I've seen. Perhaps this has also something to do with the fact that I've never driven e.g. a F1 car and that therfore I cannot tell if a F1 sim is realistic. It seems that GPL also has some very realistic handling, so I'll probably buy that one too. Who knows... it might change my view. // Johan

With sims, 99.99% of the time, the fastest hotlappers are the ones who have the most hours behind the wheel. It's as simple as that. Some guys have 40, 60, even 75+ hours with the GPL demo alone. Now that the warez version is being used by some, those people will have a huge head start in any league or hotlap board. Dave DmndDave .)

True, but is that because those people had more time to learn the track AND had more time to get to know the car AND/OR had more time to get their setup right? What you say is true, but adds nothing to the discussion. // Johan

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> With sims, 99.99% of the time, the fastest hotlappers are the ones who have > the most hours behind the wheel. It's as simple as that. Some guys have 40, > 60, even 75+ hours with the GPL demo alone. Now that the warez version is > being used by some, those people will have a huge head start in any league > or hotlap board. > Dave > DmndDave

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 21:21:50 -0400, "David G Fisher" >With sims, 99.99% of the time, the fastest hotlappers are the ones who have >the most hours behind the wheel. It's as simple as that. Some guys have 40, >60, even 75+ hours with the GPL demo alone. Now that the warez version is >being used by some, those people will have a huge head start in any league >or hotlap board. I'd say the fastest ones are the talented ones with the most hours behind the wheel - some people can drive forever and enjoy the hell out of it but still be relatively slow. Beyond that I'd agree that, hotlapping equates to time spent behind the wheel and generally a willingness to try a lap time and time again until you finally get it right. It's quite unrealistic IMO and not at all comparable to someone who can turn a quick lap within a fixed time and without crashing. Still, the main thing in GPL will be online racing, and that requires you to be clean, not necessarily fast. Hopefully more fun can come from the racing each other than chasing the clock. I look forward to seeing you on the track when it's released :-) Cheers! John

Hi, I have have to disagree slightly because different drivers have different driving styles and need different setups just as in real life ! I do however agree that the drivers who are fast with demo will probably also be fast in the final game. Different cars also need different setups to be fast! Kari remove -spam- ..... :-)

On Thu, 17 Sep 1998 20:30:03 +0200, "Johan Foederer" >We clearly have different views on this subject. I won't argue with you >about it, because it's just a difference in taste. A difference in realism also. You can't compare driver with driver when those drivers are not equally comfortable and confident with the car. No, I don't. To be precise I actually liked NFS _very_ much, but have thought the others in the series since then have been crap, as the Test Drive series has been. ahem....okay.... Cheers! John

In the case of the GPL demo, the hotlappers spent more time getting the feel of the cars, track, and the entire game engine. Setups were not an option. Dave DmndDave

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>True, but is that because those people had more time to learn the track >AND had more time to get to know the car AND/OR had more time to get >their setup right? >What you say is true, but adds nothing to the discussion. >// Johan >> With sims, 99.99% of the time, the fastest hotlappers are the ones who

have >> the most hours behind the wheel. It's as simple as that. Some guys have 40, >> 60, even 75+ hours with the GPL demo alone. Now that the warez version is >> being used by some, those people will have a huge head start in any league >> or hotlap board. >> Dave >> DmndDave

You're right, but we were talking about sims in general. >In the case of the GPL demo, the hotlappers spent more time getting the feel

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>of the cars, track, and the entire game engine. Setups were not an option. >Dave >DmndDave >>True, but is that because those people had more time to learn the track >>AND had more time to get to know the car AND/OR had more time to get >>their setup right? >>What you say is true, but adds nothing to the discussion. >>// Johan >>> With sims, 99.99% of the time, the fastest hotlappers are the ones who >have >>> the most hours behind the wheel. It's as simple as that. Some guys have >40, >>> 60, even 75+ hours with the GPL demo alone. Now that the warez version

is >>> being used by some, those people will have a huge head start in any >league >>> or hotlap board. >>> Dave >>> DmndDave

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> >This is not sour grapes, I want to get one in the near future and I am so > >convinced that this is the only difference. So while the cars at present in > >the demo are 100% compatible the difference in many of the times is in what > >controller you use! > I'm not too sure about that. One of the other testers drives with a > joystick, and has a faster time around Watkins Glen than the gamestats > record and indeed all the other testers. Some of the Papy guys also > use 'sticks and are very, very fast. It's just a case of getting used > to the controller.

I have to agree... I used to use a Thrustmaster F22 stick and TQS throttle for all sims, flight OR racing, and I've only been using wheel/pedals for a few months. I can still go faster with the stick than the wheel, but my wheel proficiency is getting closer. Trips

Yes, I think I may have accidentally implied they had little talent. I'm sure the fast hotlappers have plenty to spare. You are right about the need to drive clean and smooth. Also, patience is important. You have to resist the urge to go hell bent, stay clean and smooth, and then take advantage of the mistakes of others. The online races will definitely be a lot of fun! I'll be looking for you (in my mirrors). :-) Dave DmndDave

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>I'd say the fastest ones are the talented ones with the most hours >behind the wheel - some people can drive forever and enjoy the hell >out of it but still be relatively slow. Beyond that I'd agree that, >hotlapping equates to time spent behind the wheel and generally a >willingness to try a lap time and time again until you finally get it >right. It's quite unrealistic IMO and not at all comparable to someone >who can turn a quick lap within a fixed time and without crashing. >Still, the main thing in GPL will be online racing, and that requires >you to be clean, not necessarily fast. Hopefully more fun can come >from the racing each other than chasing the clock. >I look forward to seeing you on the track when it's released :-) >Cheers! >John

On Sat, 19 Sep 1998 20:31:23 -0400, "David G Fisher" >The online races will definitely be a lot of fun! I'll be looking for you >(in my mirrors). :-) Hah - well either I'm lapping you or you're facing the wrong way..... ;-) Cheers! John