GPL Hardware Requirements

>Papyrus says that the preferred machine is a Pentium II, at least 266 >mhz. I heartily agree with this. In the past few days, I put together >a PII-350 with 128 mb of PC-100 memory and an 8 mb AGP Hercules >Thriller. It is awesome. I get a solid 36 fps at 800x600, all graphics >details turned on, and 19 AI cars. Hi Alison, Thanks for the update, but you know, information always generate more questions :-) Q1 Is the Hercules capable of 1024x768? Q2 Is the image quality of the Hercules compared with the Voodoo2 very different? (Read: much better) Q3 When the answers of Q1 and Q2 is yes, what is the comparison in image quality between the Hercules 1024x768 and the Voodoo2 1024x768? Q4 Same as Q3 for Hercules 800x600 compared with Voodoo2 1024x786? I know, it's difficult to answer these questions if you don't have a Voodoo2 (which seems to be the case), but hee, it doesn't hurt to ask these questions ;-0 Remco PS. That PR job at Papyrus, isn't it something for you? You did well so far....

Great info, Alison, have one worry, though. You say the 256k L2 cache is a must, so how about the new Celeron 300A's 128k L2 cache? It's half the size, but running twice as fast as the P2's 256k L2 cache. Will there be a noticable difference between the Celeron 300A and the P2 300 because of this? /Christer, thinking there should be much more women like you :o) -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o) )

With the latest drivers the 8MB board supports 1024x768 (the earlier drivers incorrectly reported the available memory as 4MB thus limiting you to 800x600). I wouldn't go so far as to say it's much better, but I do prefer the warmer colors and sharpness of the textures in the Rendition version over the 3Dfx version, which looks a bit too washed out for my tastes. The resolution doesn't effect the image quality. Again, the increased resolution isn't going to change the color and texture quality, so I'd take the increase in speed at 800x600 over a higher resolution anyday. - Eric

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>Q. Ok, so what 3D accelerator should I buy? >There are a lot of Voodoo cards out there, and a lot of fans of Voodoo >cards. Magazine reviews and benchmarks seem to show that the Voodoo 2 >far outperforms any other video card, hands down. >But. The benchmarkers are running games which are optimized for the >3Dfx architecture. GPL, which is also optimized for the Rendition >architecture, is a very different story.

I have a V2200 8MB Thriller and a Canopus 8MB Voodoo I card in my system and the GPL demo definitely looks better and runs faster on the Thriller (system CPU: Pentium Classic 200Mhz). -- Will Fiveash

Thanks Eric, for your reply. Remco

The 8mb version is. It's not "very" different. The Thriller's colours look a bit more "vibrant", but not so much as to make a huge difference. The Voodoo2 give slightly sharper images so you can see far off corners and features better (this is partly due to anti-aliasing on the Thriller which can be turned off). Down to personal opinion I think. Personally I prefer the Thriller, not because of the image quality, but because you will get a better frame-rate with it. It is noticably quicker than the Voodoo2 in GPL. If you can get 36fps with the Voodoo2 then it will be better, but I very much doubt if you can. The cards all look fine at 640X480 upwards, and frame-rate is more important than looks. Cheers! John

A Voodoo1 card is also fine. I used to run GPL on a P166 (o/c 225) with Voodoo1, and it was fine at either 166 or 225mhz. As Alison said, you can have AI or graphics, or some compromise of the two, but you can't have it all with this setup. I also used to run at 512x384 with the P-166, for maximum frame-rate. Please note this is only the best choice if GPL is ALL you will be doing, since 3dFX and Voodoo1/2 are *FAR* better supported, with superior speed and quality in most other games. Some such as Unreal and Quake2 look awful on my Herc Thriller 3D, but utterly scrumptious on the Voodoo2. Think carefully about everything you will use the card for. Better still, buy both :-) The V2200 cards are very cheap these days, so why not have the V2200 for SODA, N2, ICR2-3D and GPL, and a 3dFX for everything else...? Cheers! John

On Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:50:49 +0200, Christer Andersson >Great info, Alison, have one worry, though. You say the 256k L2 cache is a must, >so how about the new Celeron 300A's 128k L2 cache? It's half the size, but >running twice as fast as the P2's 256k L2 cache. Will there be a noticable >difference between the Celeron 300A and the P2 300 because of this? There will be a difference, but it shouldn't be noticable. I run the vanilla celery with no cache at all, and it kicks some serious butt. All graphics, all AI, networking as host, networking as client, no problem at all. Cheers! John

Funny, Quake2 looks MUCH better on my Thriller than on my Voodoo2. - Eric

OK - so if you have a Rendition or Voodoo card your're OK - but theres a lot of talk about these new 2d/3d cards arriving on the market - Savage, Banshee, G200, i740 cards, Tnt. From what you said in your post, does this mean only the Banshee will be of any use in GPL? If so, it puts these new generation cards out of the equation for GPL. Damn, I had my sights set on a Tnt................

> Better still, buy both :-) The V2200 cards are very cheap these days, > so why not have the V2200 for SODA, N2, ICR2-3D and GPL, and a 3dFX > for everything else...? Exactly. I bought an 8MB Genoa Raptor at an auction site for very cheap and use it for all my Papy sims and 2D in general (BTW, it is very fast in DOS SVGA for GP2). For everything else 3D though, I use my Monster 2's in SLI.

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>Funny, Quake2 looks MUCH better on my Thriller than on my Voodoo2. >- Eric >>Some such as Unreal and Quake2 look awful on my Herc Thriller 3D, but >>utterly scrumptious on the Voodoo2.

Opposite for me - and Unreal looks *awful*. Cheers! John

Thanks a lot, John, but this contradicts a bit of what Alison said? <snippeded from Alison's post> Q. How fast a CPU do I need? Papyrus says that the minimum platform for GPL is a P-166, and I agree with this. I had a P-166 and it ran ok on that machine. However, you need at least 256k of L2 cache, and (IMHO) a Rendition 2x00 card to get decent frame rate on a P-166. You will also have to turn down a lot of graphic detail if you want to run with any AI cars, or in multiplayer mode, and you won't want to have more than 5 other cars on the track even if you've turned the detail way down. I eventually upgraded my P-166 to an AMD K6-200, which I overclocked to 75x3 so it is running at 225. More importantly, it is running the L2 cache, which GPL uses heavily, at 75 mhz instead of 66 mhz, and this helps a lot. I also installed an 8 mb Hercules Thriller, replacing the Sierra Screamin' 3D which was in it originally. <end snip> She claims you need the L2 cache and you dont, so now I'm more confused than ever :o). According to www.tomshardware.com the new Celeron overclocked is sometimes even faster than the P2 at the same clock speed and this is probably because the cache in the Celeron is twice as fast and half the size. Some applications need the whole cache, then the P2 is faster, others can take advantage of the speed, then the Celeron is faster, the new Celeron that is, Celeron 300A and Celeron 333 :o). /Christer, just did a recheck at Tom's page and the Celeron 300A seems to be a must have :o)

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> On Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:50:49 +0200, Christer Andersson > >Great info, Alison, have one worry, though. You say the 256k L2 cache is a must, > >so how about the new Celeron 300A's 128k L2 cache? It's half the size, but > >running twice as fast as the P2's 256k L2 cache. Will there be a noticable > >difference between the Celeron 300A and the P2 300 because of this? > There will be a difference, but it shouldn't be noticable. I run the > vanilla celery with no cache at all, and it kicks some serious butt. > All graphics, all AI, networking as host, networking as client, no > problem at all. > Cheers! > John

-- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o) )

<Snip usefull info> Thanks John. Remco

Comparing Unreal is apples to oranges, as the 3Dfx version is Glide and the Rendition version is an alpha OpenGL port on a beta ICD... Eric

I prefer apples actually, cause oranges are way to messy ;o). /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o) )

Comparing apples to oranges is very valid if someone is in a supermarket wondering what fruit to buy. If I was in the market for a video card and Unreal was my tipple, all that would matter would be what was on the screen - it's awful. Cheers! John

That may be the case for Unreal, but from the title of this thread I don't think it makes much difference. My initial point was running the same software (and I'm not even counting GPL since it's RRedline and Glide) Rendition has superior image quality to 3Dfx. Voodoo zealots aside, you'll not find many who will argue that point. - Eric

The title of the thread was never in doubt - the Thriller3D is best for GPL and I bought one for that very reason. The point that was made was that if GPL is not the only reason for buying a 3D card then a 3dFX may be the better choice, depending upon what you want to run. 3dFX is more widely supported, has a greater user base and for those reasons generally offers better speed and image quality than a Rendition card. No matter how keen you are on a card, you have to accept the shortcomings - if I bought a Rendition card to play GPL thanks to advice here I'd be pretty hacked off if my other favourite game Unreal looked like a bag of spanners on it. Cheers! John

While the other points may be true, saying that 3Dfx cards offer better image quality is just plain false. - Eric

The second part is of course true (it's splitting hairs, but it's true). However to say 'generally' in your first statement is still incorrect and misleading. The majority of apps using Direct3D, OpenGL, or even those with both native Glide and RRedline ports do not look better on 3Dfx cards (these titles far outnumber Glide only ports). If you had quantified it by saying something to the effect of 'and for those reasons Glide ports offer 3Dfx users better speed and image quality than a Rendition users running in software mode or using an alpha OpenGL port on a beta ICD' you'd have gotten no argument from me... - Eric

Not nearly as funny either. =) > ...and they're not nearly as much fun as a banana. -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

True, Christer, and they're not nearly as much fun as a banana. > I prefer apples actually, cause oranges are way to messy ;o). -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Not if you read what I wrote. I wrote "and _for_those_reasons_ (user base and wider support) generally offers better speed and image quality than a Rendition card". If 3dFX is supported and Rendition is not, I'd guess that the image displayed on a 3dFX would be better than that on the Rendition, Unreal being a case in point. If the Rendition is not supported it doesn't matter how good it could have been had the support been there. Cheers! John

On Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:44:55 +0200, Christer Andersson >She claims you need the L2 cache and you dont, so now I'm more confused than >ever :o). Sorry. To clarify: for a Pentium Classic, my own experience and Papyrus' official advice both indicate that you need L2 cache. The situation is different with Celerons. Apparently these are fast enough that despite the lack of L2 cache they can run GPL quite well under most conditions, especially when overclocked, as John Wallace reports. Some of our testing suggests that a Celeron which lacks L2 cache may not work as well when hosting an online race as a machine with L2 cache, but John Wallace's testing with his Celeron seems to contradict this. I think we will need more experience in this area to be able to say for sure. I have no experience with the new Celerons that have L2 cache, so I can't say for sure how they will work with GPL. It would seem quite reasonable to expect that they will work better than the Celerons which lack L2 cache. Perhaps someone with a Celeron with L2 cache can enlighten us on how the GPL demo runs on it. Alison

Just curious, how many software titles today offer native RRedline support and how many offer native G3Dfx support? Is the number even close?

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>The second part is of course true (it's splitting hairs, but it's true). >However to say 'generally' in your first statement is still incorrect >and misleading. The majority of apps using Direct3D, OpenGL, or even >those with both native Glide and RRedline ports do not look better on >3Dfx cards (these titles far outnumber Glide only ports). If you had >quantified it by saying something to the effect of 'and for those >reasons Glide ports offer 3Dfx users better speed and image quality than >a Rendition users running in software mode or using an alpha OpenGL port >on a beta ICD' you'd have gotten no argument from me... >- Eric >>Not if you read what I wrote. I wrote "and _for_those_reasons_ (user >>base and wider support) generally offers better speed and image >>quality than a Rendition card". >>If 3dFX is supported and Rendition is not, I'd guess that the image >>displayed on a 3dFX would be better than that on the Rendition, Unreal >>being a case in point. If the Rendition is not supported it doesn't >>matter how good it could have been had the support been there.

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>On Sun, 06 Sep 1998 13:44:55 +0200, Christer Andersson >I have no experience with the new Celerons that have L2 cache, so I >can't say for sure how they will work with GPL. It would seem quite >reasonable to expect that they will work better than the Celerons which >lack L2 cache. Perhaps someone with a Celeron with L2 cache can >enlighten us on how the GPL demo runs on it. >Alison

OK, no problem! I received my Celeron 300A on Friday to replace my PII233 that I have been using overclocked to 300MHz/100MHz FSB on an Abit BX6 with a Diamond Monster 3D. I popped it in, set the settings in the BIOS, and it was up and running at 450MHz with no other tweaks. All I can say it that there is a difference. Everything runs a bit smoother, and the car seems much easier to control now. I never thought I had any slowdowns with the PII300, but it does make a difference. I can imagine the difference will be greater when the full version is released and a full field of AI cars is present. I may now have to purchase the Thriller 3D to round everything out! If anyone is thinking about upgrading their system for a relatively inexpensive amount, I recommend looking into a BX chipset board like the Abit BX6 or BH6 and the new Celeron 300A. This is an excellent way to get the performance of a PII450 for under $200 (price of the chip only). And most all of the reports I have heard show that people have been very successful in getting it to overclock (some have even got it to 504MHz!) Eric Giles

A reference to your *** idiosyncrasies Bruce? :)

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> True, Christer, and they're not nearly as much fun as a banana. > > I prefer apples actually, cause oranges are way to messy ;o). > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ----------

First of all my apologies - my last message came across as kinda dismissive and stronger than I intended. It was 3am, working all day and I just dashed off a response and headed for bed. Sorry for that. I believe that no matter how I worded it the facts would remain the same - on average across the software you can buy today or in the near future, you will get better framerates or visuals with a 3dFX card than with any other 3D card. This being due to a large user base and widespread card specific support. Added to that is the fact that with a 3dFX card there are only one or two titles in which you will be unable to get 3D support (e.g. ICR2), whereas with, for example, a Thriller 3D there are markedly more, including some big ones like Unreal and QuakeWorld. The Rendition stuff is very good, that is beyond doubt. However while it is undoubtedly best for GPL I think that needs to be considered alongside what else the potential buyer might enjoy - that's the only point I'm stressing. Cheers! John

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>On Sat, 05 Sep 1998 18:50:49 +0200, Christer Andersson >>Great info, Alison, have one worry, though. You say the 256k L2 cache is a must, >>so how about the new Celeron 300A's 128k L2 cache? It's half the size, but >>running twice as fast as the P2's 256k L2 cache. Will there be a noticable >>difference between the Celeron 300A and the P2 300 because of this? >There will be a difference, but it shouldn't be noticable. I run the >vanilla celery with no cache at all, and it kicks some serious butt. >All graphics, all AI, networking as host, networking as client, no >problem at all.

You should mention that you overclocked that chip severely, though. (Which is "illegal." I still get a good laugh out of that one. :) I wonder how overclockable the Mendocino turns out to be. It might be a reason for me to switch back to Intel again. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

> Just curious, how many software titles today offer native RRedline support > and how many offer native G3Dfx support? Is the number even close? Don't know about RRedline, but there are currently approx. 100 titles that support Glide, with another *250* in development. This according to the latest 3Dfx press release about Glide.

That's a bit tool-intolerant, isn't it? I seen some pretty good spanners ("Crescent" and "Sidchrome" for instance) in my time and certainly wouldn't mind having a bag of them, John. :o) > I'd be pretty hacked off if my other favourite > game Unreal looked like a bag of spanners on it. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

John, you can't have "image quality" being controlled by something such as "user base" and "wider support". There is absolutely no relationship. It's like saying that the health of your lawn is dependant on frozen orange juice and ferris wheels! > Not if you read what I wrote. I wrote "and _for_those_reasons_ (user > base and wider support) generally offers better speed and image > quality than a Rendition card". -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Close to what, Adam? Itself? The Sun? Saturday? What? > Is the number even close? -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Absolutely not....irrespective of what you may have heard to the contrary! There's no stain on MY little black outfit....no sirree! > A reference to your *** idiosyncrasies Bruce? :) > > True, Christer, and they're not nearly as much fun as a banana. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

HA!! > Not nearly as funny either. =) > > ...and they're not nearly as much fun as a banana. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

> you will get better framerates or visuals with a 3dFX card > than with any other 3D card. This being due to a large user base and > widespread card specific support. John, John, John! The size of a base and the width of the spread have absolutely no bearing on the speed of frame-rates nor the quality of visuals!!! Once again, per analogy, this is like saying that the size of your underpants and the length of a cricket pitch determine how well the Queen looks in her official photograph! Think, lad, THINK, before you put these 3:00AM words down on plastic!! -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Yuk! "I seen = "I've seen" ("Back to banjo practice, Billy-Bruce!") > I seen some -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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>> you will get better framerates or visuals with a 3dFX card >> than with any other 3D card. This being due to a large user base and >> widespread card specific support. >John, John, John! >The size of a base and the width of the spread have absolutely no >bearing on the speed of frame-rates nor the quality of visuals!!! >Once again, per analogy, this is like saying that the size of your >underpants and the length of a cricket pitch determine how well the >Queen looks in her official photograph! >Think, lad, THINK, before you put these 3:00AM words down on plastic!!

Bruce, in fairness you should quote the complete relevant passage of what John wrote. It started with: "[O]n average across the software you can buy today or in the near future, you will get better framerates or visuals with a 3dFX card than with any other 3D card." On average. Out of 100 3D accelerated games, maybe 60 will have native Glide support. Another 35 or so support D3D (but not Glide), which also looks ok on a Voodoo based card. Maybe 5% will support another chip exclusively (like ICR2) and will not use the Voodoo card. If you now take the average of graphics quality delivered by a Voodoo card and divide it by the total of 3D accelerated games, you get a pretty good average. OTOH, other graphics chips deliver arguably better results with their native ports. But there are fewer native versions for those other chipsets. In most cases, those cards have to use the D3D version, which often (always?) is inferior in image quality and frame rate to a native version. And there are games that are Glide-only. If you do the same calculation as above, you will get a lower "average quality index" than for a Voodoo card. This is what John said (only less verbose), and I happen to agree with it. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 21:46:23 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >That's a bit tool-intolerant, isn't it? >I seen some pretty good spanners ("Crescent" and "Sidchrome" for >instance) in my time and certainly wouldn't mind having a bag of them, >John. I'm as partial to a good spanner as the next guy - it's collecting them together in a bag that makes them less pleasing to the eye. All those sleek curves covered up by rough hessian (granted some ***ists of course may prefer this approach...) Cheers! John

On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 21:52:50 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >John, you can't have "image quality" being controlled by something such >as "user base" and "wider support". There is absolutely no >relationship. It's like saying that the health of your lawn is >dependant on frozen orange juice and ferris wheels! 1) Large user base = strong support from software industry = more widespread usage in games = better visuals on average provided to customers (more games offer 3D than 2D). 2) Liking for sun = sitting on lawn = requirement for cooling drink = desire for large stocks of frozen orange juice. Given a few minutes I'm sure I could work a ferris wheel in somewhere (if yyou'll pardon the expression..!). Cheers! John

>You should mention that you overclocked that chip severely, though. >(Which is "illegal." I still get a good laugh out of that one. :) I would like to state officially for the benefit of the overclocking poice that my Celeron was not overclocked....honest! Actually it wasn't overclocked. I've tried it at 450Mhz and it works fine (actually much more than fine! :-) ) but 300 is already fine for GPL so all my racing and testing has been done at 300Mhz until now. Initial results seem to be excellent. Intel seem to have a winner on their hands with the Celeron. Cheers! John

Bruce Kennewell wrote ????... Bruce... I mean... Not that... I have anything against that... but... at your age ? ... ;-) >> I prefer apples actually, cause oranges are way to messy ;o). - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> At MY age it's about all I've got to look forward to!! :o) 'Cept maybe Viagra. ;) -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

I refer to his grammar, Wolfgang. The construction of his sentence is hideously incorrect.:o) > Bruce, in fairness you should quote the complete relevant passage of > what John wrote. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

LOL! Good come-back :o) > 2) Liking for sun = sitting on lawn = requirement for cooling drink = > desire for large stocks of frozen orange juice. > Given a few minutes I'm sure I could work a ferris wheel in somewhere > (if yyou'll pardon the expression..!). -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

At MY age it's about all I've got to look forward to!! :o)

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> Bruce... > I mean... > Not that... > I have anything against that... > but... > at your age ? ... > ;-) > >> I prefer apples actually, cause oranges are way to messy ;o). > - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! > - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. > - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) > - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS > - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise > how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> > At MY age it's about all I've got to look forward to!! :o) > 'Cept maybe Viagra. ;) Nah, let his banana stay bent! It's just not natural otherwise.

On Mon, 07 Sep 1998 22:14:41 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >The size of a base and the width of the spread have absolutely no >bearing on the speed of frame-rates nor the quality of visuals!!! Sheesh, yeah, sorry about that. Why on earth should the amount of money a company stands to make out of a market have any bearing on the amount of time, money or effort they put in? Silly of me to think that.... I'll go and stand in the corner with my pointy hat on. Cheers! John

> Nah, let his banana stay bent! It's just not natural otherwise. LOL! -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 07:07:18 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >I refer to his grammar, Wolfgang. The construction of his sentence is >hideously incorrect.:o) I ask you, how would an Australian know how a Scot should speak English? I mean even the Americans here think they are speaking English...! :-) Cheers! John

Niagara? What the ***y hell would I want with Niagara? Last thing I need at my time of life is the constant sound of running water, sonny!! > > At MY age it's about all I've got to look forward to!! :o) > 'Cept maybe Viagra. ;) -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Leave me alone, you blokes! > > Nah, let his banana stay bent! It's just not natural otherwise. > LOL! -- Bruce. ----------

Ah-HAAAAH!! There's the rub, you see! You have these poor Amerkans totally confused! It's a wonder they don't think that you're Irish, John! :o) > I ask you, how would an Australian know how a Scot should speak > English? I mean even the Americans here think they are speaking > English...! :-) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> It's a wonder they don't think that you're Irish, John! :o) Irish?...and all this time I thought John UK-ranian! -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

> Leave me alone, you blokes! Looky-looky...We done got his dander' up! Heehee! -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

LOL!...and all-along you thought it was the Fosters?<g> > Niagara? What the ***y hell would I want with Niagara? > Last thing I need at my time of life is the constant sound of running > water, sonny!! -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 22:41:10 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >Ah-HAAAAH!! >There's the rub, you see! You have these poor Amerkans totally confused! >It's a wonder they don't think that you're Irish, John! :o) Pah, Mel ***y Gibson has a lot to answer for in that case. A Scottish hero turned into a four foot midget with an Australian accent who lived (and filmed) in Ireland. William Wallace's sword was about twice the size of Mel Gibson (er, or something like that...!). Cheers! John

My wife WILL be pleased! > Looky-looky...We done got his dander' up! Heehee! -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Terrible stuff! Stick to Guinness!!

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> LOL!...and all-along you thought it was the Fosters?<g> > > Niagara? What the ***y hell would I want with Niagara? > > Last thing I need at my time of life is the constant sound of running > > water, sonny!! > -- > Marc J. Nelson > The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com > * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

-- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Twice the size of Mel Gibsons.........what? > William Wallace's sword was about > twice the size of Mel Gibson (er, or something like that...!). -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

>Q. Where can I get a Thriller, and how much will it cost? >I found my AGP Thriller through http://bestbargains.com for under $140. >PCi versions are even less. Compared with a pair of Voodoo 2's at $500 >or more, the Thriller is a steal. Speaking of "steal"... I was thinking I might be able to afford spending $140. By my rough calculations, after converting to Cdn dollars, adding 8% provincial sales tax, and 7% goods and services tax, the final bill should be around Cdn$250. But when I priced the 8MB PCi Thriller at a local shop today in Ottawa, they wanted a total of $320cdn!!! Yikes. -Ferdinand-

: But when I priced the 8MB PCi Thriller at a local shop today in : Ottawa, they wanted a total of $320cdn!!! Yikes. : -Ferdinand- You might take a look at the v2200 Genoa V-Raptor 8mb agp. I just got one for GPL and am extremely pleased for the $72. It has no tv out but GPL looks and runs great. Chuck