GPL - Fast Laps - Realism

>Watching the fastest lap replays from The Apex, it's clear that >pitching these GPL cars into turns and steering with one's foot >results in some extremely quick lap times >Is this the way Jim Clark or Phil Hill drove? Its the way he would have drove if he and the car were indestructable. Todd

I believe that these cars will handle much better (realistic) when we get the full version. Read the following excerpt from Alison Hines' website: "The cars in the GPL demo are truly evil. This is not because of any black magic spells cast by malevolent sorcerers, chanting evil incantations over spying-bowls deep in the bowels of the headquarters of hostile competitors. Nor, I believe, is it due to any characteristics inherent in the real cars of the day. Bluntly, it's due to bad setup. The cars in the demo are running over one degree of static positive camber. Any car would be unstable under this condition. Further flaws in the setup make the cars viciously unstable, particularly under braking and at turn-in. This can be fixed - and it has..." For the rest of the review go to http://www.nh.ultranet.com/~alison/sims/index.htm Devon wrote...

Something that always springs to my thoughts here is that there is no comparison to how we simmers CAN drive compared to what is practical and safe in real life. I'm sure that because of the relative fearlessness of a sim driver, he could make a perfect physics engine look unrealistic because the way a simmer can drive, particularly while hotlapping, IS unrealistic. I think when we drop back to 9 tenths to race, that everything should look more realistic. And of course the demo is an alpha with a poor setup. So poor that I have heard that the cambers are actually positive on all 4 corners!

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> Watching the fastest lap replays from The Apex, it's clear that > pitching these GPL cars into turns and steering with one's foot > results in some extremely quick lap times. As fun as this appears to > be (I'm still poking around at Monza in a G2 car turning high 1:40's), > how realistic is this? > My only rememberance of 60's F1 racing comes from vague recollections > of the film "Grand Prix". I don't recall any of this kind of "hang > out the tail" style in that film. However, I was more pre-occupied > with babes at the time, so maybe I missed these scenes? > Is this the way Jim Clark or Phil Hill drove? If so, even if the > tires were hard, wouldn't this kind of racing do serious harm to the > tires over the course of a full GP race? > This style seems more pronounced at Monza (slick surface?) but is > still evident at the Glen as well. Further, I recall reading a review > of someone using an alpha version of the game that stated this style > of driving was easier to induce in the alpha version of GPL. > I assume Papy is aware of what the faster sim racers are doing to > acheive the quicker laps. My question remains...is this realistic? > -- > " This is MY happening & it freaks me out !! " - Z-Man -

For contemporary reports on all the 11 races that made up the 1967 championship (including practice reports) go to:- http://www.i-way.co.uk/~isanski/ Only by reading the commentary will you ever gain an insight of what F1 racing was like back then.

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> My only rememberance of 60's F1 racing comes from vague recollections > of the film "Grand Prix". I don't recall any of this kind of "hang > out the tail" style in that film. However, I was more pre-occupied > with babes at the time, so maybe I missed these scenes? > Is this the way Jim Clark or Phil Hill drove? If so, even if the > tires were hard, wouldn't this kind of racing do serious harm to the > tires over the course of a full GP race?

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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> > I think when we drop back to 9 tenths to race, that everything should look more > >realistic. > Just out of interest, what sort of times are people doing when running in > "race mode", i.e. concentrating on just reeling off consistent laps. I can > typically do 5 or so in the mid to high 1:31s before making a mistake. Have > to ease off to mid to high 1:32s to be reasonably confident of doing more > than 10 at a time.

Sounds about the same as me. T1 is basically the deciding factor, much like T4 at the Glen.

Take it from me-Clark was the master of 4 wheel drift. I would love to see Schuey in a '67 car giving it shit around Monaco-watching him his style is very similar-twitchy car, lots of drift (watch him qualify at Monza next week) and a car which he fights the whole time-wonder if he has played GPL?

@cts.com Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators >Take it from me-Clark was the master of 4 wheel drift. >I would love to see Schuey in a '67 car giving it shit around Monaco-watching >him his style is very similar-twitchy car, lots of drift (watch him qualify at >Monza next week) and a car which he fights the whole time-wonder if he has >played GPL? The way Schumacher "flamed" Coulthard last week after running up the back up of him, makes me think he's been racing Nascar2 on TEN :)

>Just out of interest, what sort of times are people doing when running in >"race mode", i.e. concentrating on just reeling off consistent laps. I can >typically do 5 or so in the mid to high 1:31s before making a mistake. Have >to ease off to mid to high 1:32s to be reasonably confident of doing more >than 10 at a time. In race mode mid 1:30s, with 32 consecutive laps before a trip through the gravel at Parabolica. Cheers! John

Please,make a nexperiment for us ordinary mortals, that are not Beta testers.Get the demo(if you don't have) install monza ,and post how fast are you on a hotlap and on those 32 laps,so we can have an idea on how fast will we be with a real good setup and as much practice time as you have on this sim.Thanks a lot. Rafael

> >Just out of interest, what sort of times are people doing when running in > >"race mode", i.e. concentrating on just reeling off consistent laps. I can > In race mode mid 1:30s, with 32 consecutive laps before a trip through > the gravel at Parabolica. In the demo or beta version? I can't even imagine mid 1:30's in the demo!

Using the Repco Brabham, 1:35.XXX constantly without any dramas.

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> > >Just out of interest, what sort of times are people doing when running in > > >"race mode", i.e. concentrating on just reeling off consistent laps. I can > > In race mode mid 1:30s, with 32 consecutive laps before a trip through > > the gravel at Parabolica. > In the demo or beta version? I can't even imagine mid 1:30's in > the demo!

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

LOL... nice try Bruce ;-)

Where can I download 'Monza'? Many thanks, -- Richard Cowl

You can get "Monza" and "Watkins Glen" (in case you have the Monza-only CD demo) on my site. Go to http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl I've also got the ONLY GPL FAQ available at this time.. screenshots, Release Date updates, a poll of the week : "Should Papyrus have included the banking at Monza?", track maps, and a links page in case I missed something! Any feedback about the site.. I've had a COUPLE of replies, but I need to know what YOU want.. if there's anything you want to see, let me know! I'll take care of it! Thanks.. and enjoy Monza. doktorB http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl

> I believe you... however the mid 1:30s they're talking about is 1:30.5xx not > 1:35.xxx (sort of a your vs you're thingy that I thought you were milking!) And my question stands. Is that 1:30.5 with the demo? I'd be very impressed! If it's with a beta version where you can change the setups, it's a different story. Can the guys doing sub-1:30.5's consistently do sub-1:30.99 laps? -- ------------------------------------------------------ IMPACT Motorsports http://www.impactmotorsports.com/pd.html ------------------------------------------------------

True. > >Using the Repco Brabham, 1:35.XXX constantly without any dramas. > LOL... nice try Bruce ;-) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

I believe you... however the mid 1:30s they're talking about is 1:30.5xx not 1:35.xxx (sort of a your vs you're thingy that I thought you were milking!) :-)

Oh....I knew that! That's why I put in the 1:35.xxx!! :o) > >True. > I believe you... however the mid 1:30s they're talking about is 1:30.5xx not > 1:35.xxx (sort of a your vs you're thingy that I thought you were milking!) > :-) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>Are you using a beta of gpl? Because mid 1m30s's for 32 laps with the demo is >almost impossible. I can do 3-4 laps around 1m30s6x, and that pushing the >lotus to the limit. And i'm second on the gpl.gamestats fastlap page! That was with a full tank of fuel but not in the demo. I'll see if I can grab the demo from somewhere and give that a try. They key point is that not falling off the track is far more important than being fast. At Monza for example, pushing the car to the limit will gain me 1-1.5 seconds per lap, say over a short 10 lap race. Outbraking myself at Parabolica will probably cost 5-10 seconds easily, if I even get back on the track. As ever outright speed is very important, but staying within your limits is more so. I would say that in all the online races we've had so far, more races have been lost through driving errors than have been won through fast driving. Remember that even offline the AI adjust to be in line with your pace, so you need to be consistently fast to beat them. That was the 32 laps I did consecutively, running a full Grand Prix at Monza with 19 AI. After all 32 laps in the 1:30 range, I was in fourth place a couple of seconds behind the leading three, and closing at 1/10 - 2/10 per lap. I locked up at Parabolica and slid into the gravel - race over. You need to drive very close to your limit to be in with a chance of a win, but always know where the limit is. So a new GPL fastlap competition maybe? Best time to complete 10 laps or 20 laps? That, IMO, was one of the best features of SODA, showing a quickest time at each circuit for completing five laps as opposed to just one. Cheers! John

as the originator of the "GPL (Goddam Paltry Laps)" post, i'd like to thank everyone for their suggestions on getting the cars around the track. the girlfriend did a girl's day out and i got a chance to turn about 50 laps at each track. i am now within 2, 4, & 6 seconds (G3, GP2, GP) of you weasels. you'll still lap my sorry ass, but at least it will take a bit longer! by the by, don't try to pass me on the outside if you know what's best. thanks again, j p.s. - give me the ferrari, or give me death!

Hi doktorB, I checked out your GPL setup on Win98 FAQ. Very nice. I was actually able to get the demo going to play Monza :) The only glitch I found was that the program might 'crash' if I crashed the car. Now if that isn't realistic, what is? Hehe. Ciao, Jason.

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> You can get "Monza" and "Watkins Glen" (in case you have the Monza-only CD > demo) on my site. Go to http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl > I've also got the ONLY GPL FAQ available at this time.. screenshots, > Release Date updates, a poll of the week : "Should Papyrus have included the > banking at Monza?", track maps, and a links page in case I missed something! > Any feedback about the site.. I've had a COUPLE of replies, but I need to > know what YOU want.. if there's anything you want to see, let me know! I'll > take care of it! > Thanks.. and enjoy Monza. > doktorB > http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl > >Where can I download 'Monza'? > >Many thanks, > >-- > >Richard Cowl

-- -------- Jason Monds (Please remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

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>As ever outright speed is very important, but staying within your >limits is more so. I would say that in all the online races we've had >so far, more races have been lost through driving errors than have >been won through fast driving. Remember that even offline the AI >adjust to be in line with your pace, so you need to be consistently >fast to beat them. That was the 32 laps I did consecutively, running a >full Grand Prix at Monza with 19 AI. After all 32 laps in the 1:30 >range, I was in fourth place a couple of seconds behind the leading >three, and closing at 1/10 - 2/10 per lap. I locked up at Parabolica >and slid into the gravel - race over. You need to drive very close to >your limit to be in with a chance of a win, but always know where the >limit is.

My fastest lap in the demo is 1:32.65. That's with wavering, opposite lock slides thru 1, 3,4, and 7, flat out everywhere else. I'm using a TSW Formula, T-paddle shifters, no aids, a P200 plus Voodoo2 with most graphics off. I probably have 100 hours on this sim. I can't imagine how some of you guys are*** on to the high slip-angles you are. It's like you got some qualifying ***, or something. I think I'm very close to my limit. I know some people have extraordinary talent, but it almost seems like you have some mechanical advantage. Is it set-ups in the Beta? I run the demo only. At wit's end, Sam

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> >As ever outright speed is very important, but staying within your > >limits is more so. I would say that in all the online races we've had > >so far, more races have been lost through driving errors than have > >been won through fast driving. Remember that even offline the AI > >adjust to be in line with your pace, so you need to be consistently > >fast to beat them. That was the 32 laps I did consecutively, running a > >full Grand Prix at Monza with 19 AI. After all 32 laps in the 1:30 > >range, I was in fourth place a couple of seconds behind the leading > >three, and closing at 1/10 - 2/10 per lap. I locked up at Parabolica > >and slid into the gravel - race over. You need to drive very close to > >your limit to be in with a chance of a win, but always know where the > >limit is. > My fastest lap in the demo is 1:32.65. That's with wavering, opposite > lock slides thru 1, 3,4, and 7, flat out everywhere else. I'm using a > TSW Formula, T-paddle shifters, no aids, a P200 plus Voodoo2 with > most graphics off. I probably have 100 hours on this sim. I can't > imagine how some of you guys are*** on to the high slip-angles > you are. It's like you got some qualifying ***, or something. I > think I'm very close to my limit. I know some people have > extraordinary talent, but it almost seems like you have some > mechanical advantage. Is it set-ups in the Beta? I run the demo only. > At wit's end, Sam

It's most likely a setup thing, as I know from the other papy games a setup can make a big difference in speed and difficulty. I started driving the beta just 3 days ago, never had a chance to run the demo. At monza I have only a 1:36.x but I know If possible to improve the setup and the frame rate (16-) I'm sure I can go faster... I tested Zandvoort most, because it's my home track. I could do a 1:33 sofar, still knowing I can improve with the default setup, and not even thinking about setting up the car... Example?? Indycar Racing II Nazareth speedway... I was able to run 180 mph racelaps, and I was going to the limit, and there was another guy who went way way faster. I questioned myself how did that happen, but as I learned how to setup a car I got a lot quicker with a lot more balance in the car wich resulted in the beginning of this year a new track record and a racewin in the 40+ drivers ICR2 league the IEC wich is the best in the world... this is obvious that a setup does matter, also everyone has it's own style, and if you make a setup to your style, you will improve and improve every race you ride... I myself will switch from ICR2 to GPL somewhere in November, and will start learning how to setup, learn the tracks, and get from a backmarker to (hopefully) a front runner like in ICR2... Greetings #8 Rudy deWit Team Lightning Bolt - the best ICR2-TEAM on the net

Maybe the soultion is in having brake and throttle on seperate axis. This allows you to change the brake balance: if you put on a little throttle while braking, the brake balance moves to the front, reducing oversteer under braking. (The demo setup has in my opinion terrible oversteer when braking.) I think this is how the fast guys do it. It enables them to brake and steer into the corner at the same time, so they can brake later. Doing this requires a great driving skill though, don't think it is a matter of equipment only. Another thing is pointing the car in the right direction. I believe it is done by a small flick of the wheel shortly before the actual turnin. Requires great skill as well. A bit too much or too long and you spin. Bart Westra Best Monza untill now 1:32.19 using ECCI CDS2R johnjnelson heeft geschreven in bericht My fastest lap in the demo is 1:32.65. That's with wavering, opposite lock slides thru 1, 3,4, and 7, flat out everywhere else. I'm using a TSW Formula, T-paddle shifters, no aids, a P200 plus Voodoo2 with most graphics off. I probably have 100 hours on this sim. I can't imagine how some of you guys are*** on to the high slip-angles you are. It's like you got some qualifying ***, or something. I think I'm very close to my limit. I know some people have extraordinary talent, but it almost seems like you have some mechanical advantage. Is it set-ups in the Beta? I run the demo only. At wit's end, Sam Funny, Sam. 132.65 is my fastest time at Monza too, and I just can't seem to go any faster either. Many spins and crashes trying different approaches to each turn. I'd love to try a TSW-- I'm using my old T2 here. I think persistence is the name of the game, but on the other hand, sometimes if you walk away for a while and come back fresh, your concentration level seems more focused and you run fast with less effort. Keep at it, John

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>Maybe the soultion is in having brake and throttle on seperate axis. This >allows you to change the brake balance: if you put on a little throttle >while braking, the brake balance moves to the front, reducing oversteer >under braking. (The demo setup has in my opinion terrible oversteer when >braking.) I think this is how the fast guys do it. It enables them to brake >and steer into the corner at the same time, so they can brake later. Doing >this requires a great driving skill though, don't think it is a matter of >equipment only. >Another thing is pointing the car in the right direction. I believe it is >done by a small flick of the wheel shortly before the actual turnin. >Requires great skill as well. A bit too much or too long and you spin. >Bart Westra >Best Monza untill now 1:32.19 using ECCI CDS2R > johnjnelson heeft geschreven in bericht

Bart: I believe you probably have it, there. I DO have separate axis, but haven't "deployed" it to advantage., except in GP2 where it seems to increase braking power.I will try what you suggest. Thanx! Sam