GPL: Papy Cup race reports at Eagle Woman site

In recent weeks, Papyrus has been conducting an internal race series, as a way of testing Grand Prix Legends and also as a way of rewarding the developers for all their hard work. Finally, after years of intense effort, they've begun to be able to enjoy the game and do some racing! They are running the races in the 1967 season order, and as many as 18 drivers have competed in some of the races, conducted after hours over the LAN at Papyrus using the latest build of the day. I've been extremely fortunate to have been invited to participate, and have run in all the races so far except the first, at Kyalami. I've written race reports for the events I've participated in, and posted them on my web site, at: http://alison.hine.net/sims Click on Reviews, and then on GPL, and follow the links to the race reports and the pictorial storyboard of the Monaco race. The Monaco storyboard has over 50 captioned screen shots of the actual Papy Cup race, extracted from the replay file of the complete race (which is over 45 minutes long!) See Matt Sentell, Dave Kaemmer, and other top GPL developers in action on the stunningly rendered circuit 'round the houses, and see me make a very embarrassing blunder! Enjoy! Alison

Thanks for that Alison,glad to see that you beta testers are keeping us up to speed with GPL. Sid.

Quoted text (29 lines)

>In recent weeks, Papyrus has been conducting an internal race series, as >a way of testing Grand Prix Legends and also as a way of rewarding the >developers for all their hard work. Finally, after years of intense >effort, they've begun to be able to enjoy the game and do some racing! >They are running the races in the 1967 season order, and as many as 18 >drivers have competed in some of the races, conducted after hours over >the LAN at Papyrus using the latest build of the day. >I've been extremely fortunate to have been invited to participate, and >have run in all the races so far except the first, at Kyalami. >I've written race reports for the events I've participated in, and >posted them on my web site, at: > http://alison.hine.net/sims >Click on Reviews, and then on GPL, and follow the links to the race >reports and the pictorial storyboard of the Monaco race. >The Monaco storyboard has over 50 captioned screen shots of the actual >Papy Cup race, extracted from the replay file of the complete race >(which is over 45 minutes long!) See Matt Sentell, Dave Kaemmer, and >other top GPL developers in action on the stunningly rendered circuit >'round the houses, and see me make a very embarrassing blunder! >Enjoy! >Alison

Brilliant, alison. Thank muchly!

Quoted text (14 lines)

> http://alison.hine.net/sims > Click on Reviews, and then on GPL, and follow the links to the race > reports and the pictorial storyboard of the Monaco race. > The Monaco storyboard has over 50 captioned screen shots of the actual > Papy Cup race, extracted from the replay file of the complete race > (which is over 45 minutes long!) See Matt Sentell, Dave Kaemmer, and > other top GPL developers in action on the stunningly rendered circuit > 'round the houses, and see me make a very embarrassing blunder! > Enjoy! > Alison

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Yeah, thanks a lot Allison, now my keyboard won't work because of all the drool. <G> -/- Walk Walker

Quoted text (13 lines)

> >I've written race reports for the events I've participated in, and > >posted them on my web site, at: > Thanks, Alison. Another great taster <g> > I'm somewhat in two minds about the ability to use "shift R" in races > though. With the ability to recover from terminal mistakes there won't be > as much incentive to drive safely. I suspect that a lot of drivers will > drive well over their limits, causing lots of wrecks, and not really paying > for their mistakes :( > I sincerely hope this feature doesn't get carried over into N3. If this > feature was available on TEN I would almost certainly quit racing there.

Yes, I'm hoping that's merely an option that can be disabled too!

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > >I've written race reports for the events I've participated in, and > > >posted them on my web site, at: > > Thanks, Alison. Another great taster <g> > > I'm somewhat in two minds about the ability to use "shift R" in races > > though. With the ability to recover from terminal mistakes there won't be > > as much incentive to drive safely. I suspect that a lot of drivers will > > drive well over their limits, causing lots of wrecks, and not really paying > > for their mistakes :( > > I sincerely hope this feature doesn't get carried over into N3. If this > > feature was available on TEN I would almost certainly quit racing there. > Yes, I'm hoping that's merely an option that can be disabled too!

I hope it will be in the game, since it will certainly makes the learning proces a lot easier. And if you don't want it, simply don't use it! Han Monsees ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" Cruyff over van Gaal This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

What about during single player GP races? Will the AI be able to use Shift-R too? :) If not, they'll be at a distinct disadvantage! Or will shift-R be simply disabled for the player during GP races? Later, John

>> > Thanks, Alison. Another great taster <g> Thanks! Both wishes are fulfilled. In Novice and Intermediate-level races, Shift-R is available during both practice and race sessions. In Pro level and Grand Prix races, Shift-R is available during practice sessions, but not during the race. Blow your engine, or damage your suspension, and your race is over. Note that the damage model is more severe - and more realistic - in Pro and Grand Prix races, while the cars are much more robust and less easily damaged in the lower levels. Since I am sure someone will ask, I'll mention that a variety of race lengths and difficulty levels are available as well. Race lengths vary from very short at the Novice level to full-length Grands Prix, and at the higher levels, the AI are very, very tough. If you win a Grand Prix, you are *really* a good driver, and maybe Ron Dennis would like to talk to you! <grin> All of the length and difficulty factors apply equally to single-player and multiplayer races, and multiplayer races can include up to 20 players and/or AI cars. I've seen as many as 18 cars in one race on Papyrus' LAN, but please note that bandwidth constraints limit Internet-based multiplayer races to only a few cars. I believe the AI cars suffer from the same damage constraints as the human players; at levels where you can repair your car, the AI can too. Since I am sure someone will ask about the AI, yes, they are very well done. In the final beta version I received, they were excellent, and my understanding is that they have been further improved in the final release. No AI can quite compare with human opponents, but the AI in GPL is very, very good. Alison

>>I've written race reports for the events I've participated in, and >>posted them on my web site, at: >Thanks, Alison. Another great taster <g> Ditto. Now I'm eagerly awaiting the Nuerburgring race report, including some screenshots, hopefully. :) I must say I was surprised that the Papy folks use this feature in their league - I somehow imagined that the likes of Dave Kaemmer simply don't crash. :) I like this feature, however. I admit that I rarely finish a longer race in any sim without spinning out once or twice. Having the shift-r option allows me to turn on "realistic damage" and yet finish a race. There *is* an incentive to drive properly since you will lose some time when you crash. It just isn't "capital punishment". ;) Having said that, I expect and hope that there will be an option on the machine that hosts the game which says "allow shift-r" (or "allow cheating", if you will) which can be dis- or enabled. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Hi Alison! I too, enjoy reading the updates about the GPL racing going on now, but since these issues were raised, thought I'd ask one... Can the AI/etc be "tweaked" via "*.txt" files as per my other Papy sims? (N1, N2, ICR2) Reason for asking is I simply do not race online, and I like the ability to adjust the playing field so that I at least have a chance to place well. (Frankly, I'm not that good at simming, but I do have a lot of fun.) Can GPL accomdate this? Thanks for any input... Andre

> I must say I was surprised that the Papy folks use this feature in > their league - I somehow imagined that the likes of Dave Kaemmer > simply don't crash. :) But did DK finish this race? The eleventh frame shows him "expiring" against the hay bales. Maybe he self-enforced the no "Shift-R" rule? Sentell blew an engine, crashed, and *WON* the race... -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

I believe the shift R option will only be available in certain difficulty modes.

Quoted text (29 lines)

> > > >I've written race reports for the events I've participated in, and > > > >posted them on my web site, at: > > > Thanks, Alison. Another great taster <g> > > > I'm somewhat in two minds about the ability to use "shift R" in races > > > though. With the ability to recover from terminal mistakes there won't be > > > as much incentive to drive safely. I suspect that a lot of drivers will > > > drive well over their limits, causing lots of wrecks, and not really paying > > > for their mistakes :( > > > I sincerely hope this feature doesn't get carried over into N3. If this > > > feature was available on TEN I would almost certainly quit racing there. > > Yes, I'm hoping that's merely an option that can be disabled too! > I hope it will be in the game, since it will certainly makes the learning > proces a lot easier. And if you don't want it, simply don't use it! > Han Monsees > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" > Cruyff over van Gaal > This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oops. I think I was wrong about one point here. In Grand Prix races, Shift-R is not available in either practice sessions or the race. It is available in Pro practice sessions but not in the Pro race. Alison

Quoted text (11 lines)

>>I hope it will be in the game, since it will certainly makes the learning >>proces a lot easier. And if you don't want it, simply don't use it! >We're talking about multiplayer races here, not practise or offline races >against AI. No one is objecting to it being used for practise. >If my opponents can use Shift+R to get themselves out of trouble then they >will be less likely to avoid that trouble in the first place. Whilst >dealing with accidents is an important part of racing I have zero desire to >be taken out by someone making a bonehead move because they know they can >just press Shift+R and continue.

This is why Shift-R is disabled in the higher difficulty levels, in both solo and multiplayer play. There is also a penalty associated with the use of Shift-R: your car is righted (if it was rolled over) and all damage is repaired. However, brand new (cold) tires are fitted, and the tank is refilled with fuel to the level at which you started the race. So for a while after you hit Shift-R, you'll be slow; it takes a lap or two (except at the Ring and Spa) for the tires to come up to temperature and start generating optimum grip. And if you're 25 laps into a 30 lap race, you're going to have 30 laps' worth of fuel on board again too, so forget about trying to set fastest lap! Also, when you have stopped and are ready to hit Shift-R (it won't work while you are moving), if there is a car approaching the location where you are, Shift-R will be disabled until that car passes. So, for example, if you qualify on the front row of the grid and make a demon start, but go off in Turn One and rip off a couple of wheels, you'll probably have to wait until the entire field goes by before you can hit Shift-R and get going again. After this happens a couple of times, you start getting a lot more careful! I think it's great that there are modes where Shift-R is available, and modes where it isn't. You are right that it's important in multiplayer races to have disincentives to discourage irresponsible driving. However, don't underestimate the challenge involved in finishing a race in GPL with realistic damage and no Shift-R. Papyrus has run a number of multiplayer races at the Pro level, where Shift-R is disabled and the damage model is at the realistic level. In a sizeable percentage of these races, nobody finishes. Alison

Dave withdrew from the race at this point. He was running on a P-200, and his frame rate at Monaco with all the other cars on the track was so low that he found his car undriveable. The following week, Matt got Dave a PII-400, and he promptly won three races in a row. This will, I am sure, raise a *lot* of questions about the minimum and optimum platforms for GPL. I'm posting a seperate message with a fair amount of detail on this topic. The Papy Cup is being run using the Intermediate Long race level. In this level, Shift-R is allowed during the race. As I mentioned in another posting, Papyrus has also run a number of races (outside the Papy Cup series) at the Pro level, where Shift-R is disabled. In a fair number of these races, nobody finishes. Alison

I've already posted some screenshots of my Eagle flying at several locations at the Nuerburgring. I plan to post a report and more screen shots after the race next week. LOL! Dave is the fastest driver in GPL I've ever seen. The beta team has several of the fastest sim drivers in the world, as are Matt Sentell and Rich Yasi of Papyrus, IMHO. Dave is setting times in the practice sessions for the Papy Cup which smokes them all. However, there is simply nobody who doesn't crash in GPL. Drivers like Matt and Dave, and some of the beta team, crash less often than most of us, but... Face it. 400 hp, 1200 pounds, hard tires and no downforce yields a car which is extremely difficult to drive, and one which escapes from control at the slightest mistake. Speeds are colossal, horsepower to grip ratio is insane, and when it gets away from you, bad things happen *very* suddenly. On the other hand, watching a skilled driver driving a GP car in GPL very fast and very well is a thrilling experience. There will be a replay of a quick lap by Dave Kaemmer at Spa on the GPL CD. I've seen this replay, and it's so exciting, it gives me chills. And it's not even his fastest lap! Yes, there will. See my other messages in this thread for details. Alison

Hi Richard, But what if someone put YOU out of the race? Remco

>>Now I'm eagerly awaiting the Nuerburgring race report, >>including some screenshots, hopefully. :) >I've already posted some screenshots of my Eagle flying at several >locations at the Nuerburgring. I plan to post a report and more screen >shots after the race next week. I somehow missed them. Your site is wonderful, but it is also very spacious. Could you please give directions to these screenshots? (I could try to find them myself, but online time is pretty expensive here. I rarely "surf the web", therefore. BTW, once we're at it - I love your prose: not only your insightful comments but also your style. It is a pleasure to read your stuff.) [snip] This is a great consolation for me. Although I'm afraid that I crash more often that "most of us". :) It must be the setups... -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Quoted text (10 lines)

>>I've already posted some screenshots of my Eagle flying at several >>locations at the Nuerburgring. I plan to post a report and more screen >>shots after the race next week. >I somehow missed them. Your site is wonderful, but it is also very >spacious. Could you please give directions to these screenshots? (I >could try to find them myself, but online time is pretty expensive >here. I rarely "surf the web", therefore. BTW, once we're at it - I >love your prose: not only your insightful comments but also your >style. It is a pleasure to read your stuff.)

Scratch that question, I must have been blind. I stand by the rest of my comments, though. :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Well said, Grasshopper! Now go out into the world,find and convert a Mr. M. Schumacher and use your powers only to do good. > I would live with it and learn from it to better avoid it next time. > "That's racing". > If drivers don't suffer the consequences of their actions then they will > never learn. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

No WONDER you're having problems staying on the track! :o) > Scratch that question, I must have been blind. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

>If drivers don't suffer the consequences of their actions then they will >never learn. I get increasingly fed up of people driving way beyond their >abilities and then complaining that they've crashed. Yes, yes, yes. It gets _very_ tiring to race people who think that because they are faster they have some right to be in front. They have the right to try, but they also have a big responsibility not to take the other driver off the track. I believe GPL needs a "no damage" mode for encouraging beginners, but anyone who can turn a 1:31/1:31 at Monza has the talent to race with full damage, with all inherent compromises in speed and style. That control and responsibility is a HUGE part of racing, easily as important as the ability to go fast. One fast lap achieves nothing - 60 consecutive fast laps may win you a race. Cheers! John

I can't wait for this one to get here! 1 question. In the screenshots, there seem to be a preponderance of Lotuses (Loti?) which makes me wonder if it's just because everyone wanted to be like Clark or if the Lotus is a superior in the sim. Thus, are the cars all pretty much feel the same or are they all modelled differently (apart from engine power)? Thanks. Bob

>I can't wait for this one to get here! 1 question. In the screenshots, there >seem to be a preponderance of Lotuses (Loti?) which makes me wonder if it's >just because everyone wanted to be like Clark or if the Lotus is a superior in >the sim. Thus, are the cars all pretty much feel the same or are they all >modelled differently (apart from engine power)? Thanks. Every car is modelled different... not only the motor but the chassis, wheelbase, # of gears, wheel widht, brakes, etc.. The Lotus is the most difficult to handle, but it's soo powerfull that it's the fastest car. It's a hotlapping dream but not really recommanded for rookies in a race distance. The Coventry is probably the worst IMHO (too heavy). But it's a good rookie car. The Ferrari is similar to the Lotus, but handles a little bit better but it's less powered. I just hate when it starts to understeer in mid-corner ;) The Brabham is my favorite. It's seems like the most neutral cars of the gang. The Murasama is powerfull, almost as the Lotus, but it's heavy and I always had problems while braking with it I didn't liked the BRM, but it's a personnal choice. Many people feel it's the best-handling car, but it's not made for my racing style. Finally, the Eagle is IMHO the best car for the majority of people that considers themselves as "above-avverage drivers, but not excellent" (you know... people who can do sub-1:10min lap at the Glen). Oh yeah, each cars is visually modelled differently. Check out Allison's Monaco Pictorama... there is 1 picture with a Lotus and Brabham 2-wide.. You can easily see the difference visually. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard! - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ on the NROS - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Each car is very different, and while some cars will always be able to be near the top, others shine only at specific tracks, with specific driving styles, or with a specific setup. Part of the challenge is developing each car, finding where it is strong and which car is best (there are no facts on this, only opinions!). This is also of use when racing online, a faster driver can be handicapped with a slower car to create a handicap race which should be more or less equal. In any case it's not something which can be changed, and in a sim it has to follow the facts of the time. If the "Coventry" had been given equivalent performance to the Lotus I'm sure Bruce would have been on the next flight to Boston... Cheers! John