GPL Driver feedback

Just some thoughts. I've only recently been able to try GPL as until now I've had a Cyrix CPU, upon which the GPL demo won't run. So even though its old hat to you'all by now, its new to me. One thing that seems to be laking in the demo is any sound feedback of reaching the car's traction limit. The first think one knows about a slide is purely from visual references. I have to say that I do miss the sound feedback. I have considered sound feedback of traction limits a type of concession for the lack of other driver feedbacks that sims just can't reproduce. I note that just about all other sims, the good ones at least, have incorperated some knid of sound feedback for traction limits - Gp2, NASCAR, ICR, etc. I wonder if this is just missing in the demo or if the real product will be the same. Perhaps some of you who appear to have a closer-to-final copy can respond.

Just some thoughts. I've only recently been able to try GPL as until now I've had a Cyrix CPU, upon which the GPL demo won't run. So even though its old hat to you'all by now, its new to me. One thing that seems to be laking in the demo is any sound feedback of reaching the car's traction limit. The first think one knows about a slide is purely from visual references. I have to say that I do miss the sound feedback. I have considered sound feedback of traction limits a type of concession for the lack of other driver feedbacks that sims just can't reproduce. I note that just about all other sims, the good ones at least, have incorperated some knid of sound feedback for traction limits - Gp2, NASCAR, ICR, etc. I wonder if this is just missing in the demo or if the real product will be the same. Perhaps some of you who appear to have a closer-to-final copy can respond. Cheers Phillip McNelley

> snip puzzling stuff Phillip, are you saying you hear no tyre screaching? If so, you have some type of problem with your hardware by the sounds (no pun intended) of things.

> One thing that seems to be laking in the demo is any sound feedback of

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> reaching the car's traction limit. The first think one knows about a > slide > is purely from visual references. I have to say that I do miss the > sound > feedback. I have considered sound feedback of traction limits a type > of > concession for the lack of other driver feedbacks that sims just

can't > reproduce. I note that just about all other sims, the good ones at > least, > have incorperated some knid of sound feedback for traction limits - > Gp2, > NASCAR, ICR, etc. Eh? are you saying (an a ver long roundabout way) that you cannot hear the tyres squeal in GPL? If this *is* what you are saying, then you have a problem with your set-up cos I here the tyres squealing fine, and very helpful it is to, As you say it helps to know when you are getting close to the limit, but there definitely *are* tyre squeal in GPL. 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

Did you check the sound options to see if it might be set on 1 or something? -- mark >One thing that seems to be laking in the demo is any sound feedback of >reaching the car's traction limit.

Byron Forbes >> Phillip, are you saying you hear no tyre screeching? If so, you have some type of problem with your hardware by the sounds (no pun intended) of things. << I hear sounds including tyre screeching sounds. What I mean is that the tyre screeching doesn't seem to be progressive enough for my liking. Once you hear the screeching you appear to be already at the limit. What I like about some other titles is the way you can ease up to the limit by judging the amount/type/pitch/loudness of the tyre sounds. You can, in a way, sense you're approaching the limit and then keep the car on the edge by balancing the tyre sounds. In GPL I get the impression the tyre sounds are somewhat black and white. They aren't progressive if you get what I mean. Because of this it seems to take a lot more experience to find out how fast a corner can be taken. One has to actually try various different speeds and see what falls off and what stays on. This data gathering can be done of course but I think its better to have some kind of inherent feedback form the car that suggests where the limit is, rather than to have to rely purely on the historical experience of the driver. I accept that it takes both experience and feedback to drive well at a given circuit. But GPL seems a bit light on the car feedback side to me - sound-wise that is - visuals are great. Perhaps its just that I'm too used to the other sims I drive and that I'm too new at GPL. I recall how every time a new sim comes out the ride feels strange and foreign. These comments are just my first impressions. Thanks for your reply. Cheers Phillip McNelley

This is my biggest complaint about ALL the Papyrus sims, especially on road courses: They do not give you sufficient "seat of the pants" feedback. I am reserving judgement on GPL until I have it in my hot little hands, but it is distressing to hear you complain about the one characteristic of Papy sims that I dislike. Regards, Krabby

The sounds in the GPL Demo are just PLACE HOLDERS... They took them from Nascar 2. There will be new audio for the final release. If you want better sounds, head over to the "files" section at the APEX http://gpl.gamestats.com ). There are some cool new sounds. (Again, they will not be as good as the ones when the game is released, but they are a MAJOR improvement.) doktorB http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl *** Look for an update on my site sometime soon! (It's my first ever page. I started it Thursday afternoon, but threw it together RAPIDLY when I found myself to be the first person on the Internet to have the Monza demo!! - 1135 hits and counting - in less than 3 days!) Thanks to the "Save Monza" supporters.. if you haven't signed already, please go to my page and do it! Thanks -------

>doktorB >http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl >*** Look for an update on my site sometime soon! (It's my first ever page. >I started it Thursday afternoon, but threw it together RAPIDLY when I found >myself to be the first person on the Internet to have the Monza demo!! - >1135 hits and counting - in less than 3 days!) Nice job for a first effort. You might consider removing the blinking text, however. that's how it works, right?), but got a warning message that it could not be delivered within the first 4 hrs after sending. I hope the petition has some effect. It would be a shame if the Monza track disappeared. And: Thanks for posting the track! :) BTW, do you (or anyone) know how and where the car setup is stored in the demo? Is it coded into the monza.dat file? I wonder if we are using the Glen setup for Monza, or if we have a new one especially written for this track. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

Am working on an update to the site right now!

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>Nice job for a first effort. You might consider removing the blinking >text, however. >>Thanks to the "Save Monza" supporters.. if you haven't signed already, >>please go to my page and do it! Thanks >that's how it works, right?), but got a warning message that it could >not be delivered within the first 4 hrs after sending. I hope the >petition has some effect. It would be a shame if the Monza track >disappeared.

That's right.. just send an email... You know what.. I have a horrible feeling that his email has been FLOODED by the support and is full!! (I hope not - although I suppose this IS good!) Haven't heard back from Chris yet.. I'm hoping he does soon.. Would not be good if everyone had to "sign" again.. keeping fingers crossed. doktorB http://webhome.idirect.com/~drbryan/gpl Thanks for everyone's support!!

I tell you what guys. I'm a diehard Nascar fan and have not paid too much attention to much road racing over the years but GPL has me hooked. If you take the time to get use to the feel of the sim, you will be rewarded. I could not stay on the track too much at first but now I'm *** around the tracks with no problem at all. There is allot that setup has to do with it. I have not seen the latest demo and don't know what setup is with it but I know from the default setups of the past to some that the testers did, it made a huge difference in drivability of the cars. Don't give up on it without giving it a fair shake. -- Brian Tate BTate80 on TEN Zanzibar in Quake2 (The guy running around with the middle finger up) Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

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> I hear sounds including tyre screeching sounds. What I mean is that > the > tyre screeching doesn't seem to be progressive enough for my liking. > Once > you hear the screeching you appear to be already at the limit. What I > like > about some other titles is the way you can ease up to the limit by > judging > the amount/type/pitch/loudness of the tyre sounds. You can, in a way, > sense > you're approaching the limit and then keep the car on the edge by > balancing > the tyre sounds. In GPL I get the impression the tyre sounds are > somewhat > black and white. They aren't progressive if you get what I mean.

I think the interpretation of the tyre squeals are of course, subjective, But I personally hear the tyre squeals way before I reach the limit? and they can be used as a guide to know how far on the limit you are. Perhaps its my own imagination? but I thought the tyre squeals did get slightly louder if you push harder once the squealing has started? I cannot agree that GPL is "light on car feedback"! I think it is *THE* most responsive car physics engine we have yet seen in *any* sim, and it *FEELS* better than any other sim, all IMHO of course? I do appreciate that it feels quite different to most (all?) other sims, and is probably the hardest to master control of, and it is this difficulty in mastering, that some people often mistake for other inadequacies. With practice (lots, and lots) it will feel more natural. I believe this sim, has taken us *all* to another, higher plane, and we all have to adapt accordingly to get the best from it...... 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

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>I wrote >>that's how it works, right?), but got a warning message that it could >>not be delivered within the first 4 hrs after sending. I hope the >>petition has some effect. It would be a shame if the Monza track >>disappeared. >That's right.. just send an email... You know what.. I have a horrible >feeling that his email has been FLOODED by the support and is full!! (I hope >not - although I suppose this IS good!) >Haven't heard back from Chris yet.. I'm hoping he does soon.. >Would not be good if everyone had to "sign" again..

In the meantime I received a very nice (although automated) reply from Chris. This means his account might be a bit congested, but the messages are getting through eventually. So, people, if you haven't done so already, send a message to to effectively sign a petition that might help to save the Monza track from demolition. It's funny how people often start cherishing things only when it's too late (How often do I hear "I used to have one of these myself. I wish I had kept it." when I'm driving around in one of my old cars.) I bet some Romans in the middle ages voted for tearing down the stupid old Coliseum. Now their inheritors are glad they didn't... :) Send an e-mail, that's all it takes. -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome.

> I think the interpretation of the tyre squeals are of course, > subjective, But I personally hear the tyre squeals way before I reach > the limit? and they can be used as a guide to know how far on the limit > you are. > Perhaps its my own imagination? but I thought the tyre squeals did get > slightly louder if you push harder once the squealing has started? Exactly. Most people complain about this in PAPY sims as being skating ie too much fore warning. Agreed again. The "3D"***pit makes it even moreso!

Most of the time in GPL I find the car is almost beyond controlling when the tyres squeal. If you've ever seen single seater racing you'll notice that the you can hear the tyres on almost every corner not just when the driver is skidding out of control. I don't know if anyone else has noticed but no sim has ever recreated the sound of cars taking off the line properly. The sounds of 20+ cars lighting up their tyres on the start (and warmup laps) is very distinctive and present in every form of single seater racing I've ever seen. M

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>> I think the interpretation of the tyre squeals are of course, >> subjective, But I personally hear the tyre squeals way before I reach >> the limit? and they can be used as a guide to know how far on the limit >> you are. >> Perhaps its my own imagination? but I thought the tyre squeals did get >> slightly louder if you push harder once the squealing has started? > Exactly. Most people complain about this in PAPY sims as being skating ie > too much >fore warning. >> I cannot agree that GPL is "light on car feedback"! I think it is *THE* >> most responsive car physics engine we have yet seen in *any* sim, and >> it *FEELS* better than any other sim, all IMHO of course? > Agreed again. The "3D"***pit makes it even moreso!

given circuit. But GPL seems a bit light on the car feedback side to me - << road courses: They do not give you sufficient "seat of the pants" feedback. I am reserving judgement on GPL until I have it in my hot little hands, but it is distressing to hear you complain about the one characteristic of Papy sims that I dislike. << I think the shear number of posts about how much practice it's taken people just to be able to drive a slow lap without falling off speaks volumes about the lack of driver feedback. GPL may have the most realistic car physics to date, but if such is matched up to an unrealistic/inadequate driver feedback "feel" then the sims' overall realism will be greatly diminished IMHO. Realism isn't just a physics model. Its actually a combination of several things. Of the many realism facets that make up an overall package, if car physics are the first priority them driver feedback or "feel" surely has to be at least the second priority. Its very obvious, I suggest, that it's somewhat unrealistic when average intelligent folks, many with thousands of hours of computer car sim experience, can't drive a single slow lap without falling off needing to test the circuit dozens of times just to figure out how to stay on. The glaring question is, "Where is the driver feedback " ? An accurate sim with excellent driver feedback would be great. But having just one of these components without the other doesn't e*** me. The best overall package, i.e. physics model plus driver feel, still appears to be Gp2. Others will no doubt disagree but I'm entitled to my opinion. GPL's circuit detail is great. The best yet. By this I don't mean trackside objects although they're there in acceptable form, but the actual road surface itself. It has both camber, banking, curbs, elevations, and complex sections that combine all nuances. The car physics model may be great too. But the driver feedback is lacking to say the least, and to say the most is downright lousy. The perfect combination to date would be GPLs' circuit nuances with Gp2s' cars. Bye Phillip McNelley

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> Most of the time in GPL I find the car is almost beyond controlling when the > tyres squeal. If you've ever seen single seater racing you'll notice that the > you can hear the tyres on almost every corner not just when the driver is > skidding out of control. > I don't know if anyone else has noticed but no sim has ever recreated the > sound of cars taking off the line properly. The sounds of 20+ cars lighting up > their tyres on the start (and warmup laps) is very distinctive and present in > every form of single seater racing I've ever seen. > M

I would have to disagree with you. I have been to several CART races and have never heard their tires squeal except for when their tires are locked up or they are spinning. I also autocross my Porsche with DOT racing tires (Hoosier), and I can tell you that by the time you hear your tires squeal if they even do, that you have already pushed them too far. I also doubt that a CART driver would even be able to hear his tires seeing as how he has a 800hp engine inches behind his head, a helmet on, ear plugs, and someone talking in his hear. I think they go more with their 6th sense (that thing you're sitting on). Eric

> Most of the time in GPL I find the car is almost beyond controlling when the > tyres squeal. If you've ever seen single seater racing you'll notice that the > you can hear the tyres on almost every corner not just when the driver is > skidding out of control. Have you watched the replays available at the Apex? You must be kidding! Sounds like you need a LOT of practice! :) I can tell you now that I do not go thru any corner without a LOT of tyre noise at either track! Are you getting progressively louder screaching as you push harder? Maybe something is not working correctly. Have you fiddled with the # of sounds setting? Mine is set to the minimum which I think is 3.

Well you often hear that F1 drivers can hear the engines of the cars chasing them or that they are chasing (Damon Hill wondering whose engine had gone when Bergers engine blew at Hockenheim springs to mind). I was at Brands Hatch at the weekend (my how Mansell was amusing, but that's another story) and the FFord cars (those most similar to those in GPL) were fairly easy to hear when the tyres were under load or starting to slide. Ignoring you "amusing" attempt at a put down at the end I suggest you go listen to the junior classes of racing at a road course and try again, listen hard and you may be surprised. BTW you'd be hard pushed to hear it in a race, I've spotted it generally in warm up when there are few cars to drown out the noise. M

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>> Most of the time in GPL I find the car is almost beyond controlling when the >> tyres squeal. If you've ever seen single seater racing you'll notice that the >> you can hear the tyres on almost every corner not just when the driver is >> skidding out of control. >> I don't know if anyone else has noticed but no sim has ever recreated the >> sound of cars taking off the line properly. The sounds of 20+ cars lighting > up >> their tyres on the start (and warmup laps) is very distinctive and present in >> every form of single seater racing I've ever seen. >> M > I would have to disagree with you. I have been to several CART races >and have never heard their tires squeal except for when their tires are >locked up or they are spinning. I also autocross my Porsche with DOT >racing tires (Hoosier), and I can tell you that by the time you hear >your tires squeal if they even do, that you have already pushed them too >far. I also doubt that a CART driver would even be able to hear his >tires seeing as how he has a 800hp engine inches behind his head, a >helmet on, ear plugs, and someone talking in his hear. I think they go >more with their 6th sense (that thing you're sitting on). >Eric

>I think the shear number of posts about how much practice it's taken people >just to be able to drive a slow lap without falling off speaks volumes >about the lack of driver feedback. Er...So, according to your opinion those people will drive a lot faster in RL (TM)? I don't think so...The reason that a lot simdrivers crash is simply that they are driving to fast. The so called Try and Error method. The feedback is ok, it tells you that you're driving to fast. Never mind, you say, I allready noticed. Bang. Remco

I think they are fine. I am awful at road course racing and the feedback for me in what is close to the release version is enough for me to stay on the track the whole race. The demo does not have setup options and that adds greatly to the control of the car. It took me allot of practice at Watkins to learn to stay on the track. But once I learned to stay on there, the other tracks were a breeze. I think judging the feel of the car from the demo versions may be a bit pre-mature. -- Brian Tate BTate80 on TEN Zanzibar in Quake2 (The guy running around with the middle finger up) Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

[snip] Hi Phillip, I know what you mean and tend to agree. Others will disagree and rightly so. GP2 seems to provide a good feel for the limit and IMO better than ICR2, yet others think the reverse. I think this is because the methods used to convey the "limit" appear to be more suitable for some people and not others. Its sort of like how some people use more of their right brain, others more left etc. If I said driving GPL is a bit like a hovercraft, I'd expect you'd more or less agree where as others would hurl obscenities at me! The thing is I wish I knew what Geoff Crammond and Dave Kaemmer did differently then more people could enjoy both sims. Too be honest I think its more than just a sound difference. Even so I am still looking forward to GPL and will be first in line to get it. Regards, David

On 1 Sep 1998 12:22:02 GMT, "Phillip McNelley" >I think the shear number of posts about how much practice it's taken people >just to be able to drive a slow lap without falling off speaks volumes >about the lack of driver feedback. I disagree. GPL provides more information to the driver than ever before, containing everything we've seen before plus the 3D***pit providing additional feedback as to the car's movements. The problem with falling off is that people are trying to run before they can walk, or at least race before they can drive. I guarantee that anyone could do a lap in one of the real cars, the reason being that they wouldn't try to do 180mph into Curva Grande on their first lap - if people were brave enough to do it at 80mph I'd be shocked. So too in GPL - anyone can drive a slow lap, but there's no point in hotlapping first time out the garage. Everything needed to drive on the edge is there, you just need to practice like hell, understand the car, and practice some more. When entering Ascari or Curva Grande, I know when I hit the apex just how close I'm going to be to the exit kerb, and can correct accordingly. Out of Lesmo 2 you can feel how much the wheels are spinning and anticipate how much opposite lock is required to catch the car even before it is sliding - like I say, it's all there, you just have to learn to speak the language. Blaming the crashes on "lack of driver feedback" is pretty simplistic IMO, especially when what is simulated is something with hugely different power, weight, grip and downforce characteristics than previously experienced. Cheers! John

That wasn't a put down directed towards you. I suppose I should've phrased it "that thing we're sitting on". Sorry. But anyway, in response to your statement, I have been to many junior and amateur class races. I live here close to Seattle International Raceway. The track has several severe elevation changes, and unfortunately, most of the viewing areas are quite a ways above the track, and I may just be too far away from the track to hear the tires. I would like to hear from some of you out there that really race cars just how much you use tire squeal as a driving aid. Eric

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> I know what you mean and tend to agree. Others will disagree and rightly so. > GP2 seems to provide a good feel for the limit and IMO better than ICR2, yet > others think the reverse. I think this is because the methods used to convey the > "limit" appear to be more suitable for some people and not others. Its sort of > like how some people use more of their right brain, others more left etc. > If I said driving GPL is a bit like a hovercraft, I'd expect you'd more or less > agree where as others would hurl obscenities at me! The thing is I wish I knew > what Geoff Crammond and Dave Kaemmer did differently then more people could > enjoy both sims. Too be honest I think its more than just a sound difference.

To me this all boils down to what sim you have the most laps in. I think of different sims as like being different cars that need to be driven differently. The one you drive most will be the one you feel most at home in.

<snip> >>The thing is I wish I knew >>what Geoff Crammond and Dave Kaemmer did differently then more people could >>enjoy both sims. Too be honest I think its more than just a sound difference.

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>DK's sims always seem to have given more priority to modelling the >(visible) vertical movement of the car compared to GC's. Which has quite a >bit to do with it IMO. Because the Papy cars aren't as visually stable >that's another thing that has to be taken into account when judging turn in >points, apexes, etc. >As to the sound, my impression has always been that GC concentrates on >feedback right up to the point of loss of traction whilst DK concentrates >on what happens after the traction is already going. As a result, those who >primarily drive GP2 find that they cannot tell when they are about to slide >In ICR2 because they are expecting audio feedback before it starts to >happen. The flipside is that those who primarily drive Papy sims hear tyre >screech in GP2 and back off - they don't get anywhere near as close to the >limits of traction as they do in, say, ICR2 - IMO this is where thet >"driving on rails" complaint comes from.

I have been following this thread for a while and decided to do a little experiment: I have tried some hotlaps with GPL and GP2 at Monza with the sound turned of. I expected this to be hardest with GP2, wich would match with the statement above. I have about 2 years expirience in GP2 and 1,5 weeks in GPL. After a while a managed 1.21.1xx in GP2 without sound, against a 1.20.6xx with sound in the same session. (My hotlap is 1.20.1xx.) In GPL I did a low 1.34 after 7 laps without sound and a low 1.33 with sound in the same session. (My hotlap in GPL is 1.32.19). What I found hardest in GPL without sound was to keep the car from spinning when accelarating in 1st or 2nd gear, and also to keep the tires from locking up while breaking, especially before parabolica. In GP2 I set 1st gear very high, so the chance of spinning wheels is much smaller. Conclusion: If you know a track well, you can get good times without sound feedback. I think feedback becomes more important when doing a race instead of a hotlap. Things are not so predictable then. Perhaps someone else wants to do the same experiment and report the laptimes? <snip> Regards, Bart Westra

>> I cannot agree that GPL is "light on car feedback"! I think it is *THE* >> most responsive car physics engine we have yet seen in *any* sim, and >> it *FEELS* better than any other sim, all IMHO of course? I haven't had enough laps around GPL yet, but I've always felt the subjective 'feel' of Papyrus' sims has been excellent. I hated F1rs because I just didn't feel like I was in control of the car. *SOMEHOW* Papyrus definitely gave us that in Nascar2 for sure, which had awesome driver feedback IMHO. Stuart -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

>The sounds in the GPL Demo are just PLACE HOLDERS... >They took them from Nascar 2. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh! So THAT's why I thought they sounded the same! Thanks. Oh, and ta for the Monza track too. -- Stuart Booth Somewhere in Buckinghamshire, England, UK Note: My email address is in disguise! Remove trailing Z

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> As to the sound, my impression has always been that GC concentrates on > feedback right up to the point of loss of traction whilst DK concentrates > on what happens after the traction is already going. As a result, those who > primarily drive GP2 find that they cannot tell when they are about to slide > In ICR2 because they are expecting audio feedback before it starts to > happen. The flipside is that those who primarily drive Papy sims hear tyre > screech in GP2 and back off - they don't get anywhere near as close to the > limits of traction as they do in, say, ICR2 - IMO this is where thet > "driving on rails" complaint comes from. > Anyway, the above is all conjecture, but it sounded plausible when I wrote > it ;-)

It sounds plausible to me too :o). I have the feeling I can drive GP2 by ear, cause I know at which tyre squelling I have the best traction. GPL and ICR2 on the other hand I have to drive by memory cause my impression is that you get the best traction just before you hear the tyre squell. I prefer GCs approach on this cause it replaces the feel of the pants driving quite well. In GP2 the tyre squelling tells me if I brake to little (too little squelling) or brake to hard (too much squelling). In GPL I have the feeling I have to memorize how much pedal force I have to apply for optimum traction, cause any squelling is less traction. Sure I can brake so hard I hear tyre squell, back of until I dont hear tyre squell, but how do I know I dont brake too little??? I could pump my brakes of course, but I dont think they did that back then. I'm down to 1:31.7 in GPL at Monza and have practiced a lot the last three days (six hours in all). It seems as if the last part before Parabolica (turn 7) you can brake a little harder than the first part. I have noticed this cause I braked a lot with very little tyre squelling and at the end the tyre squelling goes away and I can press a little harder to get tyre squelling again. This is a problem before turn 4 at the Glen as well. You have to memorize when to release and how much pressure on the brake pedal to handle the crest. I would really like to know how Papyrus has implemented this. I would like to hear tyre squell before my traction is at its optimum. This would replace the lack of "driving with your pants" feel never to be found in a racing sim, at least not until we get an interface directly to our brains :o). /Christer, cant feel the GPL car with my ears as I can feel the GP2 car with my ears. -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o) )

I was gonna flame you heavily for this, but remembered that I agree a little, if only in principle. Much as I think you deserve a good flaming, I'll just point out that you're overstating the case. Most real people, as though I were the authority and not you, don't ever come near their cars' limits on purpose. Not even close. You may think you're fast, but I would bet real money you haven't reached even half your friction circle. My wife (nature's own speed governor) has a full-blown cow when I toss turns as low as .3g lateral. Not that I'm even good -- I'm being over-generous if I think I can hold 75% consistently -- but I also know that last 25% is more than I want to ride every day. Threshold braking is one thing. Power-off cornering isn't much different. They don't mean very much until you can hold max lateral under heavy braking or gas consistently. Why is this? Is it that I can *feel* the car at its limit? Speaking for only myself, I continually surprise myself when I push what I thought were limits, and find that there's more, probably much more, on the other side. So, I don't think it's just a sensitive ***that keeps me from destroying myself every day. Instead, I think it's an overly developed sense of self-preservation that lets us putter about meekly in our herds. My car, a 96 Cobra, is more than enough for my meager skills. I've lapped Vipers and Porsche's on open track events. (It's not the car, and most definitely, it's not a lack of *feel*.) Sometimes, I lap faster than I ever have in the past. Most often, though, my lap times are down. Is it the car that's off those days? Or was it the Novacaine I shot in my buttock? I don't think it was either (I was kidding about the Novacaine; I doubt I can spell it, let alone shoot myself with it). It was me -- not the car; not a deadened ***-- that didn't *feel* quite up to finding the limit. So here's my point in case you missed it above: your suicidal tendencies in GPL has less to do with feel than it has to do with what you're accustomed to. You learned in GP2, ICR2, N2, and (good heavens!) CPR that trail braking works wonders. You developed a fine sense of apparent speed, and proved to yourself that you can hold the line at the car's apparent limits. Unfortunately, you learned all this on a much more forgiving chassis. Radial tires, complex *** compounds, aero packages, suspension geometry... In other words: everything good that's happened to vehicle dynamics in the past 30 years. All of a sudden you find yourself in a roller skate on bias ply tires. Optimal slip angle is 12 deg. now, maybe higher. The contact patch is smaller than that on your mini-van, and treacherously enough, the coefficient of friction is laughably low. The center of gravity is high, and the thing rolls like a sloven pig, throwing weight everywhere but where you need it most. In spite of all this, you insist on pounding *** on your first few laps. So, you tell me. Which end of you is deader: your butt, or the thing you stuff your helmet with? It's true that you'll make finer corrections if you can *feel* them as they develop. However, there isn't much correcting you can do when you overcook your turns the way I still do. Over the limit is over the limit; there isn't anything your finely tuned ***can do for you, except maybe suck in a little tighter on the seat as you tumble down the embankment and over the fence. I'd be faster with bigger stickier tires, and a big wing in front and in back. But that's missing the point, isn't it? This is what we've been given to work with. We're blind in one eye, and our butts are numb from sitting on them all day. So what? Go do the best you can with what you have; it's no more or less than what the fast guys are running with. We can't even cry that they can setup a car better than us. (I almost wish they wouldn't come out with a garage in the game. I'd spend too much time tinkering just to make my car slower.) Michael. > What I mean is that in the real world people wouldn't try to do 180mph > cause they'd have enough feel to suggest to them they're over their or the > cars' limit. The sim doesn't suggest a limit to me. I get to know the > corners largely from experience, from falling off twenty times :-), and not > so much from inherent car feel. Even when driving a real car on totally > unknown roads one doesn't generally fall off.

they can walk, or at least race before they can drive. I guarantee that anyone could do a lap in one of the real cars, the reason being that they wouldn't try to do 180mph into Curva Grande on their first lap - if people were brave enough to do it at 80mph I'd be shocked. So too in GPL - anyone can drive a slow lap, but there's no point in hotlapping first time out the garage. << What I mean is that in the real world people wouldn't try to do 180mph cause they'd have enough feel to suggest to them they're over their or the cars' limit. The sim doesn't suggest a limit to me. I get to know the corners largely from experience, from falling off twenty times :-), and not so much from inherent car feel. Even when driving a real car on totally unknown roads one doesn't generally fall off. I've wondered what it is about the real world that lets a driver know they're pushing too hard. I think to a large extent its the feeling of roll. Sliding etc too of course but I think that roll is a major factor. Unfortunately this is one thing that sims can't recreate on the glass screen. GPL does roll visually, about the only sim that does I believe, but still its a far cry from the real feeling. Some sims try to compensate for the lack of real world feedback by exaggerating the sound effects as one approaches the limit. I think this is a worthwhile thing to do. At least its something to go by. Given the obvious great efforts and skill that have gone into GPL I have to suppose that its just not viable to get a true car feel into PC games. If it was then I think that Papy would have done it. Not without a fully gimbaled reactive player seat at least. ( Wouldn't that be fun ). Perhaps I was hoping that with the new levels of track detail, camber banking etc, new levels of car physics, power slides with throttle controlled steering etc, and new level of graphics, there might also be a new heightened level of driver feel. But perhaps this latter thing is just an inherent impossibility for the current medium. This may be what force feedback controls are trying to address although from the ones I've tried I have to say they're still more just a gimmick than a serious device. I wonder if a roll-meter would be useful. Yes I know its completely artificial and no real car has one. But I think of the makers of thinks like golf sims. You simply cannot duplicate the nuances of a golf swing on a PC game. So they decided to replace the usual skill of a true golf swing by the skill of computer mouse control, and worked out a dial thing as a focus for same. Sounds like it'd be a joke but it actually works extraordinarily well. I've even heard a golfer say that he learnt a few things about golf from PC golf games. So yes a roll-mete, whether its a set of LED type lights or a dial mete or whatever, would be completely unreal but it just might be the needed thing and might just "work". practice like hell, understand the car, and practice some more. When entering Ascari or Curva Grande, I know when I hit the apex just how close I'm going to be to the exit kerb, and can correct accordingly. Out of Lesmo 2 you can feel how much the wheels are spinning and anticipate how much opposite lock is required to catch the car even before it is sliding - like I say, it's all there, you just have to learn to speak the language. Blaming the crashes on "lack of driver feedback" is pretty simplistic IMO, especially when what is simulated is something with hugely different power, weight, grip and downforce characteristics than previously experienced. << You may be right and as I said, although the demo has been out quite a while I've only just been able to play it after a recent Intel CPU upgrade. It may well be that in my current inexperience with this sim, and/or my preconditioning on how other sims "feel" I'm missing subtle nuances that are there. I'm can do about 1m36s at Monza which I know is way off the pace of the fast guys so obviously I've a way to go with this one. ( Mind you, no matter what the sim, I'm always a few seconds behind that fast guys. I've come to accept this as simply where my car sim abilities bubbles to :-( Best Regards Phillip McNelley

>I don't know if anyone else has noticed but no sim has ever recreated the >sound of cars taking off the line properly. The sounds of 20+ cars lighting up >their tyres on the start (and warmup laps) is very distinctive and present in >every form of single seater racing I've ever seen. Probably processor related - simulating and delivering the sounds of 20 engines and 20 sets of tyres scrabbling for grip would *** the processor, especially with a full field of cars within view. Cheers! John

On 4 Sep 1998 00:37:23 GMT, "Phillip McNelley" >What I mean is that in the real world people wouldn't try to do 180mph >cause they'd have enough feel to suggest to them they're over their or the >cars' limit. The sim doesn't suggest a limit to me. Which in turn confirms that people are driving into a corner at 180mph without knowing where the limit is - then expressing surprise when they crash. Q.E.D. Well this is now a different discussion. Originally the assertion was that GPL was deficient in this department compared to other sims, but the above talks about deficiency compared to what would be expected given the quality of the other components of the sim. Personally I think that is the difference, since for me feedback is there in buckets. Even over the jumps at the Nurburgring you can anticipate the car's response before it lands, and the movements of the car when it lands instantaneously confirm it. I'll be interested to see how you get on once you've had more time in the sim, and especially once you've tried the full version. Cheers! John

>Ok then: "You $%^"*&" <g> :) thanks! Thanks Richard, this seems to sum up part of the reason some people have a preference over the other. (Although Bart Westra may have thrown in some doubt) Thinking about it some more, it seems (to me) that GC concentrates more on how to present tyre load and traction, DK concentrates more on weight distribution and g-forces. And I'm not talking about the physics modelling but the driver feedback. Out on the limb yet again.. I'm wondering if people who have better spatial awareness have a better time in Papy sims? And those with tactile sensitivity are better with GP2? We know that people have different favourite colours, why that is I don't know, but there would have to be a logical reason for it - and I'm sure that there is a more accurate reason in this case. (why some think GPL feedback is the best and others think its not as good). This time I expect someone will tell me that I'm over complicating things and there is a perfectly simple explanation.. :) Its important to me because I'd like to see more people have the opportunity to enjoy different sims more equally.. (particularly since GC takes 4yrs between each advancement) Sounds pretty good to me.. hahah but your 10hrs behind us :-)

> To me this all boils down to what sim you have the most laps in. I think of different >sims as like being different cars that need to be driven differently. The one you drive >most will be the one you feel most at home in. Byron, I understand and respect your comment, it just doesn't address why a complete newbie would take a liking to the driver feedback in one over the other. No two sims are the same and all take some time to adapt, but there's got to be a reason(s) why we end up having more laps in one than the other. The easiest answer is because we are better in one. But why is it so? (as Professor Julius would say)

David, I'm not very good at GPL, ( low 1.4X's in GP1 car) but the challenge of getting in the 1:30's keeps me hooked ! Every time I think I'm going to go in the 1.30's.... I crash ! BTW, moving the Pitboard where it shows the last lap after I cross the finish line in essential ! Tim Deatherage "Admitted Sim ***" No two sims are the same and all take some time to adapt, but there's got to be a reason(s) why we end up having more laps in one than the other. The easiest answer is because we are better in one. But why is it so?

On Fri, 4 Sep 1998 06:46:09 -0700, "Tim Deatherage" >David, >I'm not very good at GPL, ( low 1.4X's in GP1 car) but the challenge of >getting in the 1:30's keeps me hooked ! Every time I think I'm going to go >in the 1.30's.... I crash ! Same here (1:34.x), but I'd find the challenge a bit more fun if I didn't get RSI from shift-R'ing :-) Yep, thats an excellent tip - thanks Richard! There's no going back :-)

John, since you've reminded me that your a beta tester, I have a question. Something I have noticed in the demos is that there seems to be a point of throttle application where the front end seems to gain traction as compared to a slightly less amout of throttle. At about 1/4 throttle I'll get understeer and then by applying more throttle, without skidding, the car then seems to turn in. Have you noticed this topsy turvey situation and does it remain in the latest build you have? Or is this a set of racing physics presently beyond my comprehension?

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> Personally I think that is the difference, since for me feedback is > there in buckets. Even over the jumps at the Nurburgring you can > anticipate the car's response before it lands, and the movements of > the car when it lands instantaneously confirm it. I'll be interested > to see how you get on once you've had more time in the sim, and > especially once you've tried the full version. > Cheers! > John

Well maybe. But in my defense I do point out that while I may be wrong, speaking before I have enough experience with the product, or just plain off the wall, I do try to explain at length why I have the opinions I have. These thoughts aren't meant to be deliberately provocative or flame-baiting, or insulting or anything else. They are really just thoughts I genuinely have and about which I'm interested to hear others' thoughts. Seems to me that that's a valid use of a newsgroup. I re-read one of my former posts and yes I agree that the tone on reflection is much hasher than is warranted. Its one of those cases where as you write you think you're just stating some perceptions as you see them but then when re-read some time later you realize you words connote a much more negative feel than you intended. My apologies to all and to the GPL people. Perhaps this is what is needed. A generic wife's voice superimposed over the other sounds that alerts one to imminent dangers. A bit like the NASCAR2 spotter. But then that would spoil the ability to lose ones self in the fantasy. :-) Interesting to hear you real life experiences on the matter. sudden you find yourself in a roller skate on bias ply tires. ... In spite of all this, you insist on pounding *** on your first few laps. << Certainly the transition requires a learning curve. I gather that the final release will have a number of things tweaked from the demo. Papy is a contender for the best car sim producer crown. GPL to date confirms this. The release version I would have to suspect would further confirm the point. GPL is a landmark product in just about every department without doubt. It still seems to me though that even as every other facet of these types of sims are advanced, the feel of driving a car remains a bit static, as if the natural limits of the glass screen are too prevailing. But that's just my feeling and I stand to be enlightened by others like yourself who have some real world experience in the matter. If fact I've found it somewhat enlightening to hear such thoughts from yourself and others. My own real world experience amounts to driving a street car for 24 years ( I'm 41 ). Some of this time was spent as a taxi driver so perhaps I can claim to know what driving at the limit is after all, all-be-it a different kind of limit, through peak hour traffic while someone is urging you to get them to the airport as fast as possible. Maybe the next great sim project could be a taxi driver sim where one has to make a living, appease passengers, and tackle traffic and road rage. Maybe my background will give me an edge there. I've also occasionally hired a go-cart for some fun at a public go-cart tracks. ( The sort or carts you hire aren't anything to write home about unfortunately. Very underpowered ). I'm also a qualified motor mecahanic for what its worth. Cheers Phillip McNelley

that GPL was deficient in this department compared to other sims, but the above talks about deficiency compared to what would be expected given the quality of the other components of the sim. << Yes. Due to my sloopy and short use of langage in the former post. But this later concept is what I mean. Sorry. In any case the chance of me not buying GPL as soon as its out is about the same as Frank Williams calling me up to offer me the vacant Williams seat. Bye ( The phones ringing :-) Phillip McNelley

It may be that at a particular point of throttle application you are breaking the rears loose and sliding the back end round - that would make you point into the corner more. Also, depending upon the diff settings and relative grip of the rear wheels, you may be getting some turning effect from there. I'd guess you would notice the above two "driving" features, and are looking for something "notchy" about the control. I've certainly never seen anything like that in the latest versions (nor any beforehand either for that matter). Cheers! John

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> >John, since you've reminded me that your a beta tester, I have a question. Something I > >have noticed in the demos is that there seems to be a point of throttle application where > >the front end seems to gain traction as compared to a slightly less amout of throttle. At > >about 1/4 throttle I'll get understeer and then by applying more throttle, without > >skidding, the car then seems to turn in. Have you noticed this topsy turvey situation and > >does it remain in the latest build you have? Or is this a set of racing physics presently > >beyond my comprehension? > It may be that at a particular point of throttle application you are > breaking the rears loose and sliding the back end round - that would > make you point into the corner more. Also, depending upon the diff > settings and relative grip of the rear wheels, you may be getting some > turning effect from there.

This is definantly not the case. It seems like a bit of a "reverse physics" situation to me ie more throttle seems to plant the front end down harder. I first noticed it by watching and listening to replays at the Glen. I was miffed at how much throttle some drivers had on thru the corners, and I noticed the above in my own testings. I'm just hoping it is an alpha build thing. It is fairly subtle but using it definantly leads to better lap times! As you say though, it may be associated with the diff settings - something I am clueless about at present. But it is my understanding at present that gear ramps only have an effect under braking/downchanging.

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> > >John, since you've reminded me that your a beta tester, I have a question. Something I > > >have noticed in the demos is that there seems to be a point of throttle application where > > >the front end seems to gain traction as compared to a slightly less amout of throttle. At > > >about 1/4 throttle I'll get understeer and then by applying more throttle, without > > >skidding, the car then seems to turn in. Have you noticed this topsy turvey situation and > > >does it remain in the latest build you have? Or is this a set of racing physics presently > > >beyond my comprehension? > > It may be that at a particular point of throttle application you are > > breaking the rears loose and sliding the back end round - that would > > make you point into the corner more. Also, depending upon the diff > > settings and relative grip of the rear wheels, you may be getting some > > turning effect from there. > This is definantly not the case. It seems like a bit of a "reverse physics" situation > to me ie more throttle seems to plant the front end down harder. I first noticed it by > watching and listening to replays at the Glen. I was miffed at how much throttle some > drivers had on thru the corners, and I noticed the above in my own testings. I'm just > hoping it is an alpha build thing. It is fairly subtle but using it definantly leads to > better lap times! As you say though, it may be associated with the diff settings - > something I am clueless about at present. But it is my understanding at present that gear > ramps only have an effect under braking/downchanging.

The effect you're referring to is the power-oversteer one. A certain level of power of course induces understeer... but once you start putting down too much, the rear starts stepping out. In something like a F1 car if you get the rear out at all like this you're going to end up spinning off. But in the '67 F1 cars this effect was not so razor edged. Due to the very squishy bendy flexible nature of the tyre sidewalls back then the car could get right out of shape without actually being really sliding. The way I think this works is something like this: the contact patch of the tyre is being deflected considerably to one side due to the friction force acting on the soft sidewall. But of course, the tyre is rotating, and the tread on the front side of the tyre as it is coming down to meet the road is in a centered position due to no lateral force acting on the tyre which isn't on the road. So, as the tyre is rotating it is constantly replacing the deflected part of the tyre with "new" tyre which is not deflected at all, if you get what i'm trying to say. This is why the car has such wallowy behaviour in turns and has such a high slip angle around corners, you really have to turn the car in a lot to make up for the tyre rotation replacing the deflected tyre contact patch. I suspect that this phenomenon is properly called Tyre Relaxation. And I think that's why as you apply more power, the rear wheels start trying to rotate a little faster, and thus they are "relaxing" at a faster rate to the front wheels, and thus the rear starts stepping out very slightly, even though they are still not slipping any more than they were. But modern racing tyres have very much reduced sidewall deflection properties, so this whole effect becomes correspondingly smaller, to the point that riding this power oversteer region becomes a knife edged affair between hard cornering and just getting right out of shape to the point where you lose a big chunk of speed and time or spin completely. which is probably why you don't see modern F1 cars doing it. Road cars usually have pretty ***tyres with lots of sidewall flex, like my mother's Holden Barina. First time i drove it i was like "yuck! this car's all over the place!" due to this effect, but with a bit of driving you get used to it, just like we got used to it in GPL. I'd say you got used to it pretty damn well, since you're in the top 10 at Monza at the Apex. :) Personally I really love the feel of the GPL cars as they're right in this zone of *** the rear out for corner exiting. Hopefully this helped out a bit - assuming that what i am talking about is correct, of course:) Cheerio, Grant.

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> > It may be that at a particular point of throttle application you are > > breaking the rears loose and sliding the back end round - that would > > make you point into the corner more. Also, depending upon the diff > > settings and relative grip of the rear wheels, you may be getting > some > > turning effect from there. > This is definantly not the case. It seems like a bit of a "reverse > physics" situation > to me ie more throttle seems to plant the front end down harder. I > first noticed it by > watching and listening to replays at the Glen. I was miffed at how > much throttle some > drivers had on thru the corners, and I noticed the above in my own > testings. I'm just > hoping it is an alpha build thing. It is fairly subtle but using it > definantly leads to > better lap times! As you say though, it may be associated with the > diff settings - > something I am clueless about at present. But it is my understanding > at present that gear > ramps only have an effect under braking/downchanging.

What you describe sounds like the typical 'throttle steer' caused by the effect of reducing rear lateral adhesion with increased throttle. Since the rate of turn-in (as in the required steering angle) is a function of the balance between front and rear lateral adhesion (under-steer vs over-steer), turn-in is increased with increased throttle. The the front-end-plant you feel is due to the car rotating into the turn as the rear wheels experience reduce lateral adhesion. Also the rate of change in front to rear balance is greater in a lower gear due to the increased torque at the rear wheels. Thus the ease of spinning out in lower gears and the ability to really hammer the gas in high gears without loosing the back end. It's testimony to GPL that these vehicle dynamics are more realistic and pronounced than in any other sim to date. I can hardly wait for the final release. Marty

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> The way I think this works is something like this: the contact patch > of the tyre is being deflected considerably to one side due to the > friction force acting on the soft sidewall. But of course, the tyre > is rotating, and the tread on the front side of the tyre as it is > coming down to meet the road is in a centered position due to no > lateral force acting on the tyre which isn't on the road. So, as > the tyre is rotating it is constantly replacing the deflected part > of the tyre with "new" tyre which is not deflected at all, if you > get what i'm trying to say. This is why the car has such wallowy > behaviour in turns and has such a high slip angle around corners, > you really have to turn the car in a lot to make up for the tyre > rotation replacing the deflected tyre contact patch. I suspect > that this phenomenon is properly called Tyre Relaxation. > And I think that's why as you apply more power, the rear wheels > start trying to rotate a little faster, and thus they are "relaxing" > at a faster rate to the front wheels, and thus the rear starts > stepping out very slightly, even though they are still not slipping > any more than they were.

Very insightful stuff this on your part. If I'm not wrong your referring to accidental 4 wheel steering? If your right, this is a treamendous testament to the detail of this physics model, rather than an alpha waiting to be tweaked! Thanks for the comments and accompanying insight. I wonder if we can roll the tyres off the rims in the final release :)

Thanks Marty, but I think Grant nailed it actually. His account tends to explain what I'm talking about. It doesn't seem like a case of the back end stepping out due to partially broken traction - more like a case of greater front end grip that I guess would be accounted for by what I labelled "accidental 4 wheel steering" in a response to Grant's post.

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> > > It may be that at a particular point of throttle application you are > > > breaking the rears loose and sliding the back end round - that would > > > make you point into the corner more. Also, depending upon the diff > > > settings and relative grip of the rear wheels, you may be getting > > some > > > turning effect from there. > > This is definantly not the case. It seems like a bit of a "reverse > > physics" situation > > to me ie more throttle seems to plant the front end down harder. I > > first noticed it by > > watching and listening to replays at the Glen. I was miffed at how > > much throttle some > > drivers had on thru the corners, and I noticed the above in my own > > testings. I'm just > > hoping it is an alpha build thing. It is fairly subtle but using it > > definantly leads to > > better lap times! As you say though, it may be associated with the > > diff settings - > > something I am clueless about at present. But it is my understanding > > at present that gear > > ramps only have an effect under braking/downchanging. > What you describe sounds like the typical 'throttle steer' caused by the > effect of reducing rear lateral adhesion with increased throttle. Since > the rate of turn-in (as in the required steering angle) is a function of > the balance between front and rear lateral adhesion (under-steer vs > over-steer), turn-in is increased with increased throttle. The the > front-end-plant you feel is due to the car rotating into the turn as the > rear wheels experience reduce lateral adhesion. > Also the rate of change in front to rear balance is greater in a lower > gear due to the increased torque at the rear wheels. Thus the ease of > spinning out in lower gears and the ability to really hammer the gas in > high gears without loosing the back end. > It's testimony to GPL that these vehicle dynamics are more realistic and > pronounced than in any other sim to date. I can hardly wait for the > final release. > Marty

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> <snipped stuff> > Very insightful stuff this on your part. If I'm not wrong your referring to accidental 4 > wheel steering? If your right, this is a treamendous testament to the detail of this > physics model, rather than an alpha waiting to be tweaked! Thanks for the comments and > accompanying insight. I wonder if we can roll the tyres off the rims in the final release > :)

well, i wouldn't call it accidental 4 wheel steering. I thought that this was what people called "drifting"? or is it "4 wheel drifting"? or "power drifting"? i don't think it's quite power sliding since the rear wheels aren't really actually wheelspinning. I'm a little light on the proper terminology of motor racing. :) I'm glad you found it useful:) Grant.

On 4 Sep 1998 00:37:23 GMT, "Phillip McNelley" >What I mean is that in the real world people wouldn't try to do 180mph >cause they'd have enough feel to suggest to them they're over their or the >cars' limit. The sim doesn't suggest a limit to me. I get to know the >corners largely from experience, from falling off twenty times :-), and not >so much from inherent car feel. Even when driving a real car on totally >unknown roads one doesn't generally fall off. Naturally not. This has little to do with feel and a lot to do with a fear of hurting or killing yourself, and to a lesser extent of hurting your car and your wallet. I would also guarantee that the majority of people never approach anything like the limit in their road car, and yet happily hurl their GPL Lotus 49 into a corner with utter abandon. Remember how slowly you drove when you first got into a car, and remember how long it took to feel confident and build up even to the speed limit? That step is utterly missed in GPL, with people smoking the tires out of the pits within 5 seconds of their ***touching the seat. The limits are there, this is obvious from the number of people who demonstrably have utter control within the sim, they just have to be learned. An interesting experiment to try with the full release will be to take some of these "fast guys" and get them to race in a 50% distance race with full damage and no Shift-R. It's truly amazing how that focusses your mind back on to the one issue that is fundamental in a real car and totally lost in a sim - DON'T CRASH! I've done quite a few 50% races in GPL and even some 100% races while testing the AI, and the concentration even around Monza is incredible. I've been 20 or 30 laps into a race and clipped the apex kerb at Curva Grande, locked a wheel at Lesmo1 or outbraked myself at Parabolica, all resulting in the end of my day. Not so much driving differently, but you really have to think differently in order to keep going and be in with a chance. In online testing more races have been lost than won, with people hotlapping off into a big lead then bouncing into the sh***y and throwing away the race. Alison always does really well in our online races, since although she is on the pace when hotlapping for grid positions, she drives within herself in a race and hardly ever makes a mistake. My results improved a lot when I took that info on board and drove cleanly rather than quickly. This is something which is in every sim Papy have released AFAIK, the onset of sounds effects is slightly advanced to compensate for the loss of "seat of the pants" feel which would otherwise be your first indication that something was wrong. Quite apart from questioning if it is necessary (since I and many others feel totally comfortable with the language of GPL) I wonder when I'd have a chance to look at it! I think this may be just lack of practice, and/or the fact that the setup cannot be tweaked to suit your style. I have difficulty driving a heavily understeering setup, and I am seconds off the pace if I use one simply because the car doesn't talk to me or react in the way I expect. That causes loss of confidence on my part. Hopefully with the full release you'll speaka da lingo in no time. Cheers! John

> ... The limits are there, this is obvious from the number of people >who demonstrably have utter control within the sim, they just have to >be learned. I suspect this is the case. Agreed. I hope to be able to race either on-line or networked with some friends in due course. I don't know if it'll work well trying to race folks in the USA or Europe when I'm here in Australia though. I'll certainly give it a try but may have to settle for more localised races. I used to network NASCAR 2 with some friends. Its certainly great fun to race real people. And just like you say. With other humans in a "real race" situation, care and patience are the orderof the day. I think this is probably what produces the greatest sense of not-feeling-right for me ATM. As an avid Gp2 driver, no-aids and no-steering-helps, I rely a lot on, and am used to, the tyre sounds which Gp2 uses to a much greater extent. Gp2 starts off with very soft hushes of squeel which progressively incresse until you loose traction altogeather. When you sit on the edge and push it around a corner you can actually chirp along the way. A delightful touch I always feel when driving like this. In Gp2 if your tyres arn't howling through the corners you're not close enough to the limit. GPL seems to use sounds to a lessor extent and differently at that. It'll simply take some getting used to but I'm optomistic about it based on what other people have had to say. Pehaps as a driver aid at least. It'd have to be a periphial thing. Pehaps high on the screen in simulated LEDs. I never really look at the rpm lights in Gp2 but I always know what they're indicating. I suspect this also. The number of posts by numerious people such as yourself who say only good things about the sim must have some substance behind them. I'm sure I'll cotton on to it in time. The next issue is do I have the hareware for it ? By what I read my Intel 233 MMX 64mb with the Rendition 2100 ( diamaond stealth 2 S220 ) should be at least OK with some graphics reduction. If not I'll need to think about a AMD K6-2 perhaps and a Hercules Thriller. But I'll try with what I have in the first instance. Best Regards Phillip McNelley

Grant, very insightful and impressive post, then again it isn't the first time I've been impressed by you :o). /Christer -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))