GPL Weather

Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL?

Bill wrote Grand Prix Legends will have no real-time weather, well not as what you want. Papyrus and David Kaemmer, in the way they want the weather conditions to be implemented, is way to much complicated and powerful for the present PC's. Actually, if you look at other racing games or simulator with rain effects, you will see that it's very basic and unrealistic. Just think a little about how they would make "rain" (just not rain but any conditions, with wind/fog/etc..) - Light, heavy rain - Wind speed and temperature - Terrain model, in a way that the 3-d engine would model rain to get down slopes, make rivers on the terrain, rivers on the track, puddle at specific lower parts of the track - How the grass actually absorb, not just the grass but the track, and any other types of surface. - Realistic clouds, in a way you have all the possible list of clouds (cirrus, cumulus, etc..). - racing groove is less affected by the rain because of the tires on the tracks. - Modeling of the rain poured off the back of tires, or sliding off any parts of the car body - All this in real-time, remember.. The list actually would go on and on and on... So just be lucky there is no such things because 1) Racing at 'Ring would be even more impossible hehe 2) You would need 2SLI Voodoo2 card 24mb with a Pentium II 500ghz. 3) Well, you would really want GPL before the Y2k end of the world ? hehe - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

The last I heard weather effects will not be in GPL because of time constraints. I hope I'm wrong! -don "To race is to live, everything else is just waiting." - Rudi Caricciola

This would be a huge blow IMHO if there was no weather effects. Tracks like Spa and the 'Ring were legendary for their unpredictable weather where half of the track would be dry, and the other completely drenched without any notice. If a sim like F1RS (and it's successor) can have variable weather...then why not GPL? The sim has been already pushed back as it is already, so implementing that feature would be worth the wait. Oh yeah, and add the banking at Monza as well :-) F1Filter

> Actually, if you look at other racing games or simulator with rain effects, > you will see that it's very basic and unrealistic. Just think a little > about how they would make "rain" (just not rain but any conditions, with > wind/fog/etc..) F1RS does a smashing job at a rain effect. These wouldn't be too hard (assuming a model similar to F1RS, and wind model using the current ICR2/N1/N2). Who cares about the rivelettes caused by runoff? A detail not needed, although puddles would be neat. Another useless item...Shall we count the blades of grass in the infield too?...How about the grains of sand in the traps at Motreal? Details only need to imply that they exist, rather than shout it. They need not be technically correct, all they need is to convey an effect. The groove is GREATLY affected by rain! Cars run at generally slower speeds, so the turn-ins (etc.) will be changed. The spray from the tires in F1RS looks pretty convincing, as is the glow from the car's tail light. What else is there?...I rather not see another GP2_give_a_frame_when_ you_feel_like_it deal again, please! Not much harder than it already is!<g> A single Voodoo-1 will do the trick, provided the CPU is a P200+. 3) ...and this is the main reason why it won't be in the sim. Not that they "can't" do it, just that Papyrus didn't have enough time to do it "properly." Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

GPL has no wet weather at all. > Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL? -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

The banking at Monza was NOT, repeat, NOT, used for any F1 World Championship races after the 1.5-litre era. Therefore replicating the banked track at Monza would be historically innacurate. And before you say "Yes, but the 1967 French GP wasn't held at Rouen-les Essarts!", let me remind you that the sim does not represent the year 1967 per se. It is representative of the 3.0-litre era and during that period the French GP WAS held at Rouen....in 1968. But banked track at Monza.....definitely not on!

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> This would be a huge blow IMHO if there was no weather effects. Tracks like > Spa and the 'Ring were legendary for their unpredictable weather where half of > the track would be dry, and the other completely drenched without any notice. > If a sim like F1RS (and it's successor) can have variable weather...then why > not GPL? The sim has been already pushed back as it is already, so > implementing that feature would be worth the wait. > Oh yeah, and add the banking at Monza as well :-) > F1Filter > >nyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL? > >The last I heard weather effects will not be in GPL because of time > >constraints. I hope I'm wrong!

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

i hope they make a patch to add this feature. Joe Conklin http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ remove spam to reply >Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL?

But I really think anyone who thinks this is an issue is missing the point... by a mile! Inspired by the pre-release gossip I've just plugged in my wheel setup after at least two months rest from GPL. My interest in the demo had gone on hold after I realised I wasn't going to get below 1:09 regularly without a lot more work (and an ECCI or TSW :-), and as the release date drifted, the pressure to improve was relaxed. But within half an hour of restarting I've managed a couple of 1:09's and I'm grinning again like an idiot in anticipation of the release. (I really do think GPL teaches us new skills you don't forget in a hurry). Weather would be *very* cool in GPL. But who the ferk has enough spare time to learn to drive all the announced GPL tracks in the *dry* let alone under variable weather conditions? I certainly wish I did! Ok, to an extent it's your skill as a sim-driver, your understanding of the car and its limits, which governs your ability to respond dynamically to variable conditions in both machine and environment. So I can appreciate why many people would want this challenge as soon as possible. But GPL as it stands -- even if it had little more content than we've seen in the demo -- has to be the biggest leap forward in racing simulation any of us have ever seen.... except maybe for the leap from nosimatall to Crammond's "Revs" on the BBC Micro :-) Bottom line, don't cry about what we're not going to get. In my experience the *biggest* single factor in any game/sim's enjoyment and longevity is its multiplayer facility. I would pay a small fortune for just the ability to network/TCPIP the demo. The fact that we'll get (hopefully good) networking plus AI and a scary collection of tracks I'll never get to grips with is a bonus! I'm sorry there appear to have been some problems as Papyrus/Sierra, but whatever state GPL reaches us in, this is going to be one *hell* of an Autumn! Andrew McP... getting overe***d again. Nurse! My pills, quickly! Yes... that's it, right at the bottom of my cupboard <unreconstructed leer>

Although not historically accurate, there aren't any pit-stops either. This pretty-much kills enduro-events. =( Cheers! Marc > So is there no wind/temp? More headaches for leagues! -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

no pits either sierra NEEDS to fix that. Joe Conklin http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ remove spam to reply

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>Although not historically accurate, there aren't any pit-stops either. >This pretty-much kills enduro-events. =( >Cheers! >Marc >> So is there no wind/temp? More headaches for leagues! >-- >Marc J. Nelson >The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com >* No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

Sounds like a pile of shit all in all!! Russ

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>i hope they make a patch to add this feature. >Joe Conklin >http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ >remove spam to reply >>Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL?

Well Papy couldnt make it perfect. But still it will be the greatest sim ever so who can complain. Maybe we might see like an add-on a few months later with like the 68 or 69 season, weather effects, and a few other nice features like pit stops and some new tracks? Like the Nascar 2 expansion pack. Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

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>GPL has no wet weather at all. >> Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL? >-- >Regards, >Bruce. >---------- >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:15:59 +0100, "Russell Gasper" >Sounds like a pile of shit all in all!! Does that mean that if we take a pile of shit and add pits and weather you'll be quite happy, since that clearly is the definition of a good product? Gimme a break (oh, and during that break imagine how you would like three years of your life described as "a pile of shit"). Cheers! John

That's really too bad as it would have been fun to see what those 3.0-litre cars could have done on it. BTW I could have sworn I saw what was a something of a screenshot where there were cars on a banked track (it looked like a head-on shot if I remember correctly). There was an article on Gamecenter.Com when news about the sim 1st broke, and I remember them saying something about that the movie 'Grand Prix' was one of the main influences of this game. Perhaps that and the pic of cars on a banked track were spurring the rumor of including the oval at Monza? Anyway, it would be a nice sentimental add-on to the game if they did include it. Now with the impending demolition of the banking and such. F1Filter P.S. If we are such sticklers for historical accuracy, I am sure they could always just add the option to block it off or not. Otherwise let us sentimentalists drive on it and reminisce.

yeah that was a very poor comment he made. the games sounds awesome, even without the weather effects. the weather would just make a (i hope) great game even better! Joe Conklin http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ remove spam to reply

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>On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:15:59 +0100, "Russell Gasper" >>Sounds like a pile of shit all in all!! >Does that mean that if we take a pile of shit and add pits and weather >you'll be quite happy, since that clearly is the definition of a good >product? >Gimme a break (oh, and during that break imagine how you would like >three years of your life described as "a pile of shit"). >Cheers! >John

Hey let me guess your favorite sim racing game. hmmm is it Test Drive 4? or maybe Need for speed 2? how bout Pod? or can it be Formula 1 by Psygnosis? Andretti Racing possibly? oh it must be the king of all racing sims, Jonney Herbert F1 Racing! LOL Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

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>Sounds like a pile of shit all in all!! >Russ >>i hope they make a patch to add this feature. >>Joe Conklin >>[link lost in import] >>remove spam to reply >>>Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL?

>> Actually, if you look at other racing games or simulator with rain effects, >> you will see that it's very basic and unrealistic. Just think a little >> about how they would make "rain" (just not rain but any conditions, with >> wind/fog/etc..) >F1RS does a smashing job at a rain effect. I pretty much agree with all of Mark's comments. I think weather adds an awful lot to a driving sim. F1RS does an excellent job of weather effects. I can imagine GPL with the variable clouds and rain of F1RS, and the fog and lighting/time of day effects of MTM2. No weather in GPL is because they screwed up in their planning, not because it can't be done. Dave DmndDave

Hi John, Happy to see(read) you again(sorry for the world cup :-)) About the pit stops,Are all pitstops out of the game or just the programmed ones(for changing tires and putting fuel).If you have a minor crash,won't you be able to repair it despite the great amount of time you will lose to do it?If not ,maybe this and the impossibility to save the game during the race or during any of the weekend sessions(i read this on an interview from a papyrus guy)will turn a single race in a real nightmare to complete.Imagine the ring in a full race without the possibility of repairing a minor crash and not being able to save the game?It will be a frustating experience,don't you think?

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> On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:15:59 +0100, "Russell Gasper" > >Sounds like a pile of shit all in all!! > Does that mean that if we take a pile of shit and add pits and weather > you'll be quite happy, since that clearly is the definition of a good > product? > Gimme a break (oh, and during that break imagine how you would like > three years of your life described as "a pile of shit"). > Cheers! > John

Rafael Medeiros wrote But you understand such things weren't common in Formula1 in 1967 ?? Why program fuel/tire pitstop when it didn't existed ?? Tires lasted 3-4 races and you had enough fuel to go the full length of a GP. And when you had damage, at that time you wouldn't had the possibility to restart. The wheels are about the first thing that you will have damage, since you have no wing at that time (mostly at the front) to absorb the shock. So minor crash didn't existed at that era. Be sure, you will be happy with GPL, even if it doesn't have weather conditions !!!! - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

So is there no wind/temp? More headaches for leagues!

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> > Actually, if you look at other racing games or simulator with rain effects, > > you will see that it's very basic and unrealistic. Just think a little > > about how they would make "rain" (just not rain but any conditions, with > > wind/fog/etc..) > F1RS does a smashing job at a rain effect. > > - Light, heavy rain > > - Wind speed and temperature > These wouldn't be too hard (assuming a model similar to F1RS, and wind > model using the current ICR2/N1/N2). > > - Terrain model, in a way that the 3-d engine would model rain to get down > > slopes, make rivers on the terrain, rivers on the track, puddle at specific > > lower parts of the track > Who cares about the rivelettes caused by runoff? A detail not needed, > although puddles would be neat. > > - How the grass actually absorb, not just the grass but the track, and any > > other types of surface. > Another useless item...Shall we count the blades of grass in the > infield too?...How about the grains of sand in the traps at Motreal? > Details only need to imply that they exist, rather than shout it. > > - Realistic clouds, in a way you have all the possible list of clouds > > (cirrus, cumulus, etc..). > They need not be technically correct, all they need is to convey an > effect. > > - racing groove is less affected by the rain because of the tires on the > > tracks. > The groove is GREATLY affected by rain! Cars run at generally slower > speeds, so the turn-ins (etc.) will be changed. > > - Modeling of the rain poured off the back of tires, or sliding off any > > parts of the car body > The spray from the tires in F1RS looks pretty convincing, as is the > glow from the car's tail light. > > - All this in real-time, remember.. > What else is there?...I rather not see another GP2_give_a_frame_when_ > you_feel_like_it deal again, please! > > The list actually would go on and on and on... So just be lucky there is no > > such things because 1) Racing at 'Ring would be even more impossible > Not much harder than it already is!<g> > > 2) You would need 2SLI Voodoo2 card 24mb with a Pentium II 500ghz. > A single Voodoo-1 will do the trick, provided the CPU is a P200+. > 3) > > Well, you would really want GPL before the Y2k end of the world ? hehe > ...and this is the main reason why it won't be in the sim. Not that > they "can't" do it, just that Papyrus didn't have enough time to do > it "properly." > Cheers! > Marc > -- > Marc J. Nelson > The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com > * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

On Sun, 23 Aug 1998 21:26:07 -0300, Rafael Medeiros >Happy to see(read) you again(sorry for the world cup :-)) Yeah, you were lucky though - we had to give you a goal... :-) If you look through some of the interviews with Papy guys on the WWW you will see that you can save events during the race weekend, you just can't save in the middle of a race. I'm not sure of the technical details of why that is, but considering the massive number of details being modelled, then multiply by the number of AI cars, then consider the real-time nature of the whole-weekend and it becomes a difficult proposition. The one advantage of that is that it does accurately reflect what would happen in a race - if you crash, you're out. The online races in testing really reflect this - you have to drive within the limits of your ability. All in all I'd prefer to have a save, but I can easily understand and appreciate the thinking and intention behind the method used. Cheers! John

Other pitstops did exist though, and in '67 played a big part. I remember several stops being shown in the "Nine days in summer" film, and although these tended to be unplanned, unwelcome and quite long, they did exist and did play a part. Tyre and fuel stops weren't an issue of course as you said, unless of course you picked up a puncture. Cheers! John

> no pits either sierra NEEDS to fix that. Agreed. A simple puncture would make you think so. Does GPL model punctures? I can't see the need for the ommission of racesaves either. They could just have it ommitted from a "Full Sim" race ie highest level of difficulty. I don't think they should limit what our computers are capable of like this. I'd also like to be able to see immediate lap times in practice/testing mode rather than having to wait for the completion of the next lap - this is simply an exercise in time waisting IMO!

Just in case you have misinterpreted, Arthur, I wasn't complaining, simply answering the question. My personal opinion is that, yes, wet-weather would be a nice addition....it doesn't have to be perfectly modelled (this is, after all, simply a simulation). However, the fact that it is NOT included (for whatever reason) does in no way detract from the excellence of the product........and "excellent" is what it will be. > Well Papy couldnt make it perfect. But still it will be the greatest sim > ever so who can complain. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Methinks that you may have just chomped down on a baited hook, John! :o) > Does that mean that if we take a pile of shit and add pits and weather > you'll be quite happy, since that clearly is the definition of a good > product? > Gimme a break (oh, and during that break imagine how you would like > three years of your life described as "a pile of shit"). -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

The movie "Grand Prix" did feature the "pretend" 3-litre cars on the banking, that's true. Accurate, it wasn't. I think that there will be enough in the sim that will enable *accurate* "sentimental reminiscence" without having to resort to a "what if" scenario. Once you start that, where do you stop? "What if the cars raced at Imola?" "What if the cars raced on the Targa Florio course?" "What if the cars raced in the Monte Carlo Rally of 1955?" > That's really too bad as it would have been fun to see what those 3.0-litre > cars could have done on it. BTW I could have sworn I saw what was a something > of a screenshot where there were cars on a banked track (it looked like a > head-on shot if I remember correctly). -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Without a "save game anytime" feature, sales of this product will NOT be as high as if the feature was included. I recall that when NASCAR2 was first released (without the "save"), we had a hell of a job convincing anybody other than the dyed-in-the-wool enthusiast to buy it: as soon as Mr. Average discovered that there was no "save", the box went back on the shelf. Now, as much as I hate to say it, I think Papyrus are shooting themselves in the foot over a silly principle here and sales will suffer accordingly. The enthusiast will buy the product....the customer who likes a good motor-racing "game" will be deterred from buying it, simply because he can't stop, save and go back into a race when HE feels like it. > Hi John, -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Come off the grass, Byron! Do you want an accurate simulation or do you want a mish-mash affair? If the technology of the era ran to clicking stop watches and holding up pit boards to indicate the time on the previous lap, then that's what the sim should replicate. How can it be "time wasting"??? You have to circulate around the track lap after lap so where is the problem? > I'd also like to be able to see > immediate lap times in practice/testing mode rather than having to wait for the completion > of the next lap - this is simply an exercise in time waisting IMO! -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Reading some of your comments about not saving the races. I forget seeing this in the demo, but can we adjust the amount of race laps we want to do in GPL? thanks, Dave Thayer

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> Hey let me guess your favorite sim racing game. > hmmm > is it Test Drive 4? > or maybe Need for speed 2? > how bout Pod? > or can it be Formula 1 by Psygnosis? > Andretti Racing possibly? > oh it must be the king of all racing sims, Jonney Herbert F1 Racing! > LOL > Arthur > s t e a l t h > r a c i n g > http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html > >Sounds like a pile of shit all in all!! > >Russ > >>i hope they make a patch to add this feature. > >>Joe Conklin > >>[link lost in import] > >>remove spam to reply > >>>Does anyone know if rain efefcts will be in GPL?

> ...or do you want a mish-mash affair? I like my mish-mash with a bit_o_sugar on top, please! =) Cheers! Marc Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - The Ultimate Sim Resource: http://www.simproject.com

>If a sim like F1RS (and it's successor) can have variable weather...then why >not GPL? The sim has been already pushed back as it is already, so >implementing that feature would be worth the wait. Have you ever noticed that it keeps raining in F1RS even if the skies turn blue ? All races must have been held in april. ;-) Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

Wow! Talk about going off on a major tangent here. My point was that since the developers did state that the move was an influence of the game... why not include what was to many, a highlight of the film? I did not propose the idea of racing on tracks or events that had nothing to do with the F1 Championship back then. This was merely a suggestion to include a portion of a track that, at one time, was indeed used during the 60's (irreguardless of the formula at the time). The addition of the oval IMHO would still be a nice feature (accurate or not). And as I stated before, if one wants true historical accuracy...the option to block it off could be used. F1Filter P.S. Everyone knows that the movie "Grand Prix" was not an accurate account of that era. Chris Amon (Pete Arron) couldn't buy a win back then, let alone the World Championship.

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>The movie "Grand Prix" did feature the "pretend" 3-litre cars on the >banking, that's true. Accurate, it wasn't. >I think that there will be enough in the sim that will enable *accurate* >"sentimental reminiscence" without having to resort to a "what if" >scenario. Once you start that, where do you stop? "What if the cars >raced at Imola?" "What if the cars raced on the Targa Florio course?" >"What if the cars raced in the Monte Carlo Rally of 1955?" >> That's really too bad as it would have been fun to see what those 3.0-litre >> cars could have done on it. BTW I could have sworn I saw what was a >something >> of a screenshot where there were cars on a banked track (it looked like a >> head-on shot if I remember correctly). >-- >Regards, >Bruce.

Heres a fast way to not have to do that extra lap. When you finish the lap, hit escape and go into replay. When the car crosses the start/finish line your last lap time is instantly shown. Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html >> no pits either sierra NEEDS to fix that. > Agreed. A simple puncture would make you think so. Does GPL model punctures? > I can't see the need for the ommission of racesaves either. They could just have it >ommitted from a "Full Sim" race ie highest level of difficulty. I don't think they should >limit what our computers are capable of like this. I'd also like to be able to see >immediate lap times in practice/testing mode rather than having to wait for the completion >of the next lap - this is simply an exercise in time waisting IMO!

Yes, i also understand Papyrus point ,but i guess this game will become a frustrating experience if there isn't, at least, the possibility to go into the pits for a repair.What about the online races ?To much lag clones or as good as MTM2 in the zone?how many at a time?Will be there a Sierra private server to play the game?I know you can't answer everything but ... these would be great. Thanks Rafael

Where did I comment about not saving races? Anyways you'll be able to run any lenth you want, short, medium, or long race. Just like any other sim. Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

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>Reading some of your comments about not saving the races. I forget >seeing this in the demo, but can we adjust the amount of race laps we >want to do in GPL? >thanks, >Dave Thayer

i think 8 tcp/ip, and it maybe at www.won.net no psitive tho. Joe Conklin http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ remove spam to reply

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>> All in all I'd prefer to have a save, but I can easily understand and >> appreciate the thinking and intention behind the method used. >> Cheers! >> John >Yes, i also understand Papyrus point ,but i guess this game will become a >frustrating experience if there isn't, at least, the possibility to go

into >the pits for a repair.What about the online races ?To much lag clones or as >good as MTM2 in the zone?how many at a time?Will be there a Sierra private >server to play the game?I know you can't answer everything but ... these would >be great. >Thanks >Rafael

Hopefully it will be as good as MTM2 in the Zone. I race people from all over Europe, South America, and even Australia and it's pretty damn smooth. There was bad news awhile back that Papyrus wasn't much concerned with the internet racing (how the hell they could make that decision is beyond me) but beta testers pushed for improvements and I hear it is much better now. If it doesn't provide quality online racing, I won't have much time for it. Dave DmndDave >.What about the online races ?To much lag clones or as >good as MTM2 in the zone?how many at a time?Will be there a Sierra private >server to play the game?I know you can't answer everything but ... these would >be great. >Thanks >Rafael

The majority of people here, Richard, would not have been born when the 1967 season was underway so except for you and I and one or two others, "remembering" would be a bit difficult! :o) > Has everyone forgotten Clark at Monza in 67 already? :( -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

Yes....that's the way I prefer mine.....although a dob of honey is nice. :o) > > ...or do you want a mish-mash affair? > I like my mish-mash with a bit_o_sugar on top, please! =)

> Come off the grass, Byron! Is this a reference to my driving ability? I think your contradicting yourself here a little. I just read that you think Papy are "shooting themselves in the foot" by ommitting racesaves. In other words, you concede people have time constraints yet seemingly fail to see that this ?feature? basically means double (or at least more) the amount of time it takes to test setups. Having to either complete the next lap or exit off the track to a time sheet will get VERY tedious VERY fast I'm sure. I see this as a waist of computer resources. I HATE this situation as it stands in the demo!

.. yeah, but you crash your car whilst viewing it (there's no pause button!). I think Byron was saying he wants to be able to see in real time what his laptimes are. doktorB >Heres a fast way to not have to do that extra lap. >When you finish the lap, hit escape and go into replay. When the car crosses >the start/finish line your last lap time is instantly shown.

This is so rare an occasion David that I feel compelled to comment. I AGREE COMPLETELY! I put any sim company who places no emphasis on online/OnOffline/Offline as clueless and one that won't be around for long. The first company to release a sim with a competitive physics model and with an OnOffline multiplayer setup (see here http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/OnlineRacing.html) will blow everything off the globe IMO! > Hopefully it will be as good as MTM2 in the Zone. I race people from all > over Europe, South America, and even Australia and it's pretty damn smooth. > There was bad news awhile back that Papyrus wasn't much concerned with the > internet racing (how the hell they could make that decision is beyond me) > but beta testers pushed for improvements and I hear it is much better now. > If it doesn't provide quality online racing, I won't have much time for it.

This, for me, is all part of the atmosphere of the sim - an atmosphere which should be consistent. If practice/training shows times immediately then it is annoyance when you can't get the same in qualifying. If you always have to make the adjustment then it is not an issue (or less of an issue at least). IMO this really, really adds to the atmosphere of the sim, and concentrates your mind wonderfully on the lap you have just driven - how much better/worse is it than the lap being reported on the pit-board, and how much faster can you go. As Alison described wonderfully on the GPL forum, you get to a level in GPL where the actual "driving" of the car becomes totally automatic, the controlling, braking, accelerating, and you begin to work on the details of the driving - how to exploit the camber, crown in the road etc - I'm sure folk like Dave Mansell and the other demo hotshoes know this well. At that time you can "feel" how much better a corner can be taken and estimate how much more time is in you and your current setup if you can string a lap together. The fun part, for me, is juggling all these figures in my head and comparing them to what I estimate my competitors can do, just as Clark, Hill etc had to do back in them days. Cheers! John

I can understand a company taking that stance. With the state of current technology the vast majority of sales of any game are to the individual user, not to those who have the ability or desire to "internet" the game. Until such time as technology reduces telecommunications costs (globally) and, at the same time, increases reliability of connection irrespective of distance then there will always be the greater percentage who do not play "on-line". For instance, NASCAR2 has been available as an on-line game in the United States for over a year (TEN and before that, Hawaii). Here in the Antipodes we are still awaiting such a thing to become available. Official reason from the major on-line *** service here is "not enough customers interested in that type of on-line ***". This is very true...there just is not a large enough population to warrant the expense of a server being setup to run something like NASCAR on-line. Australia, with a population of 16 million, wwould have only a very tiny percentage who would actually have NASCAR racing, let alone the need or wish to run it on-line. So until technology can provide us all with dependable, high-speed connections, at sensible cost, there is little worth in trying to on-line race between here and there....it is too frustrating. A similar situation exists in Europe: although they are closer to the USA, call-costs can be horrendous, depending upon in which country the player is located. About 3 years ago there was a prediction from one of the entertainment industrys' gurus at the time (probably since disappeared!) who reckoned that, within a space of five years, more than 50% of all games would be played on-line. (Note: he said *PLAYED* on-line....not *playable* on-line.) Well, he's way, way short of that number! > There was bad news awhile back that Papyrus wasn't much concerned with the > internet racing (how the hell they could make that decision is beyond me) -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

I would imagine that the final product would include a "Pause" feature...the same as all the Papyrus sims to date. > .. yeah, but you crash your car whilst viewing it (there's no pause > button!). I think Byron was saying he wants to be able to see in real time > what his laptimes are. -- Bruce. ----------

Fair suck of the saveloy, Byron! B-I-G difference between travelling a few laps when setting up a car and not being able to save a race 70 laps into a 120-lap RACE :o) And anyway...my comment regarding Papy foot-shooting was in reference to the possible commercial effect....not my personal likes or dislikes. Have another decko at it and you'll see what I mean. Meantime, use your "replay" feature to check your lap times as you complete each one. That's the trick to it :o) Oh....and stay off the green stuff and remain on the black stuff! > > Come off the grass, Byron! -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:55:31 -0300, Rafael Medeiros >Yes, i also understand Papyrus point ,but i guess this game will become a >frustrating experience if there isn't, at least, the possibility to go into >the pits for a repair.What about the online races ?To much lag clones or as >good as MTM2 in the zone?how many at a time?Will be there a Sierra private >server to play the game?I know you can't answer everything but ... these would >be great. You don't need a Sierra private server, you make your own. It's a bit like Quake - you setup a server (just by connecting to the internet and launching GPL), others enter your IP address and connect to your system and away you go - it's easy, and very convenient. Not like F1RS or MTM2 where you are waiting around at the menu for people to join and then hoping everyone stays connected while you go to the track, in GPL the server loads the track and clients can join or leave anytime they like throughout practice. As for how good it is and how many at a time, I know but I'm not sure how much I can openly say. If I were to tell you my 'phone bill for the last month you might get some idea though - it was one scarily big bill but I STILL thought it was worthwhile :-) The lag depends on your connection and the state of the internet - you and God have more influence on that than Papy do! Cheers! John

I recall GP2 being slammed for it's myopic avoidance of internet play, yet I also recall it being the biggest and fastest selling game at the time - what a disastrous decision that was. As is often pointed out, r.a.s. is a small subset of the entire sim market, where the common denominator is that we are all online. That tends to skew the thinking as far as the importance of being online is concerned. Of all companies making sims Papy and MS will have excellent data as to how significant the online community actually is, comparing total sales of N2 and CPR against signups and usage on NROS and IGZ. I don't see it as being that big a deal - yet. That time will come, but so far it's something excellent for us to have but really not all THAT big a selling point. Undoubtedly failure to include it will lose some sales, but if you are looking from a bean-counter's perspective you have to ask whether the time spent developing and improving on-line play would yield a larger ROI if set to work developing weather/injuries/<insert name of feature>. Luckily for us online types some companies like Papy, MS, Ubisoft are looking to future sales and working on online stuff, but the level of influence is small as yet. All IMO of course :-) Cheers! John

my question is www.won.net gonna have GPL up to play with others? Joe Conklin http://www.geocities.com/siliconvalley/network/5312/ remove spam to reply >This is so rare an occasion David that I feel compelled to comment. > I AGREE COMPLETELY! > I put any sim company who places no emphasis on online/OnOffline/Offline as clueless and >one that won't be around for long. The first company to release a sim with a competitive >physics model and with an OnOffline multiplayer setup (see here >http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/OnlineRacing.html) will blow everything off the globe

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>IMO! >> Hopefully it will be as good as MTM2 in the Zone. I race people from all >> over Europe, South America, and even Australia and it's pretty damn

smooth. >> There was bad news awhile back that Papyrus wasn't much concerned with the >> internet racing (how the hell they could make that decision is beyond me) >> but beta testers pushed for improvements and I hear it is much better now. >> If it doesn't provide quality online racing, I won't have much time for it.

> At that time you can "feel" how much better a corner can be >taken and estimate how much more time is in you and your current setup >if you can string a lap together. The fun part, for me, is juggling >all these figures in my head and comparing them to what I estimate my >competitors can do, just as Clark, Hill etc had to do back in them >days. This is so true IMHO. When I lap race around the Glen, I can jugde the "quality" of the lap pretty good. 90-95% of the time I *know* if the lap is good or not. And i gotta say that feeling is so special... to know that you've just pulled off a clean fast lap... And then as you come around the track after yet another lap you get the confirmation on the pit-board!! Man, I cant wait to race these tracks... just the thought of racing around Spa - trying to slip passed one of the AI's. Going flat-out down the Masta-straight at speeds close to 200mph surrounded by other cars. Or the slipstreaming around Monza - passing other cars and be re-passed within a few seconds - again! Just imagine the feeling of completing a good, fast lap around Zandvoort. A track that was soo slippy due to all the sand on it. Now imagine that feeling you'll have when *you know* you've just done a great lap!! Ohhh how I want this thing now... I want Clark, Hill and Hulme - the Lotus, Ferrari and Eagle - the Ring, Spa and Rouen.... and I want it fast!!! :)) All the best, Edwin Solheim REMOVE SPAM-GUARD IN ADDRESS TO REPLY! Check out "The Paddock - a legendary site..." for some cool GPL-stuff!! [http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock)

You can do the same thing with MTM2 and CPR. I've done it that way a few hundred times myself I'd guess. The Zone basically just helps you locate friends and strangers for a TCP/IP race and then steps out of the way. F1RS is a different story unfortunately. I may be wrong but I think they will be offering TCP/IP racing in the new version released this winter. No licensing restrictions. Dave DmndDave

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>You don't need a Sierra private server, you make your own. It's a bit >like Quake - you setup a server (just by connecting to the internet >and launching GPL), others enter your IP address and connect to your >system and away you go - it's easy, and very convenient. Not like F1RS >or MTM2 where you are waiting around at the menu for people to join >and then hoping everyone stays connected while you go to the track, in >GPL the server loads the track and clients can join or leave anytime >they like throughout practice.

>> I put any sim company who places no emphasis on online/OnOffline/Offline as clueless and >>one that won't be around for long. The first company to release a sim with a competitive >>physics model and with an OnOffline multiplayer setup (see here >>http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/OnlineRacing.html will blow everything off the globe >>IMO! >I recall GP2 being slammed for it's myopic avoidance of internet play, >yet I also recall it being the biggest and fastest selling game at the >time - what a disastrous decision that was. It seems to me from everything I read and hear that online *** is now and will be in the future, the key ingredient of PC games. At least that's what I see here in the States. GP2 was then, this is now. It was understandable (to me at least) that GP2 didn't provide online play. I doubt it would have been very good anyway. Last summer I thought POD was impressive with it's online play, now it pretty much stinks compared to others released in the past year. There was even a significant jump between CPR and MTM2. Whatever sims/games that have been released recently or will be in the near future will be used by us for another year at least, or 2 maybe? The online community is growing very fast and the developers need to plan for the future as well as the present. Racing game developers should be pushing online racing more than anyone. Real racing is all about going head to head with opponents. That's it's greatest appeal. Who better than to take advantage of the internet than them? Papyrus might view GPL as a niche product, it's appeal will probably be limited, but if they hadn't provided TCP/IP racing it would have been a huge mistake because it is a RACING sim. Even if the amount of people who take advantage of it is small. Once you get comfortable with the cars, create setups, and learn the tracks, you want to be able to race others and get the adrenalin pumping. I would be shocked if Papy doesn't provide good online racing in N3 and ICR3. MS seems to be making it a top priority with it's last 3 motorsport releases (CPR, MTM2, and Motocross Madness). It will do the same in upcoming racing titles I'm sure. As far as a selling point, MTM2 would have a fraction of it's fans if it couldn't be raced online, and I bet MCM will follow along the same lines. There are one million people signed up at just the Zone. Just a few months ago, their record for total amount of people online at any one time was 10,000. Now I regularly see 14-15,000. There is about 100 playing MTM2 on any weekday night and already that many playing MCM. The bean counters would know the facts, but I just disagree that the appeal of online racing, and *** at this point is limited. I think in the last year the stage has been set for online ***/racing to be a major feature of most titles. Some of the developers seem to be making it a big priority, and the others will hopefully follow. From this point on, I just don't see any excuse for them not to do so. Dave DmndDave

I should add that I do understand that many people outside the U.S. don't have unlimited, low cost internet access and this certainly limits the appeal of online racing for them. Is that supposed to change? Dave DmndDave

<snip... much e***d chatter about GPL> Here, here, now Edwin... get a grip. It won't be long. Breath deep... easy, now... easy... ;') Andre P.S. I've got a P233MMX, 32 Meg SDRAM, SB 64AWE, but alas, an S3 Virge vid card. :-( I'm thinking about putting in a Rendition based card as my primary card, with 3dfx board alongside. Is this still possible with the later generation boards? Where will be the best performance be found for N2, GPL, and N3: Rendition or 3dfx? Thanks...

You probably want to pick up another 32mb. And either a Thriller (Rendition V2200) or a Voodoo2, or both will be the best bet. Though the Voodoo2 will give you the best performace but the Rendition the best image quality. Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html ><snip... much e***d chatter about GPL> >> Ohhh how I want this thing now... I want Clark, Hill and Hulme - the Lotus,

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>> Ferrari and Eagle - the Ring, Spa and Rouen.... and I want it fast!!! :)) >> All the best, >> Edwin Solheim >Here, here, now Edwin... get a grip. It won't be long. Breath deep... >easy, now... easy... ;') >Andre >P.S. I've got a P233MMX, 32 Meg SDRAM, SB 64AWE, but alas, an S3 Virge >vid card. :-( >I'm thinking about putting in a Rendition based card as my primary card, >with 3dfx board alongside. Is this still possible with the later >generation boards? Where will be the best performance be found for N2, >GPL, and N3: Rendition or 3dfx? >Thanks...

What John meant about coming_and_going whenever someone feels like it, is that unlike MTM2/CPR - where you have a meeting area, GPL allows you to join a parctice session ALREADY in progress. No more re- grouping. If the time is set for say 40-min, and you've got to go eat din-din, then you can rejoin the practice afterwards (provided no booting from the host/paticipants have occured. You can disconnect from the 'net, and then dial into your sever at anytime to rejoin. Pretty neat! =) Cheers! Marc > You can do the same thing with MTM2 and CPR. I've done it that way a few > hundred times myself I'd guess. The Zone basically just helps you locate > friends and strangers for a TCP/IP race and then steps out of the way. F1RS > is a different story unfortunately. I may be wrong but I think they will be > offering TCP/IP racing in the new version released this winter. No licensing > restrictions. -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

Something that I wish to clarify here too Bruce. I like and almost insist on it staying as is under *race* conditions, but I'm sure that everyone, including your good self, will find it very tedious after a while in testing. I have trashed other games, etc that were otherwise good because of tedious annoyances like this. I don't want to know about pause keys, replays, etc. I just want to be able to see the time of the lap I just completed in *practice/testing* on the lap board or whatever! PS - if they don't s***this then don't expect me to be "off the grass" too much! A mediocre driver like me needs good setups! :)

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> Fair suck of the saveloy, Byron! B-I-G difference between travelling a > few laps when setting up a car and not being able to save a race 70 laps > into a 120-lap RACE :o) > And anyway...my comment regarding Papy foot-shooting was in reference to > the possible commercial effect....not my personal likes or dislikes. > Have another decko at it and you'll see what I mean. > Meantime, use your "replay" feature to check your lap times as you > complete each one. That's the trick to it :o) > Oh....and stay off the green stuff and remain on the black stuff! > > > Come off the grass, Byron! > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ----------

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> > I put any sim company who places no emphasis on online/OnOffline/Offline as clueless and > >one that won't be around for long. The first company to release a sim with a competitive > >physics model and with an OnOffline multiplayer setup (see here > >http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/OnlineRacing.html will blow everything off the globe > >IMO! > I recall GP2 being slammed for it's myopic avoidance of internet play, > yet I also recall it being the biggest and fastest selling game at the > time - what a disastrous decision that was. > All IMO of course :-)

Well, the way I see things, is that if you have a computer capable of running GPL then you would be a very good chance of also being on the net. Inet growth is explosive and competition is bringing connection costs down as I write this. The pre GP2 Inet and the pre GPL Inet populations are enormously different. And I dare say that GPL will have appeal and considerable sales appeal 12 months after release whereby the Inet population will be massively greater again. If GP3 was being released now with an OnOffline implementation, would this effect GPL sales? You bet it would! Even for those not on the Inet yet, can you imagine their motivation to get online knowing that when they do that they can race it online against people all over the world! The computer *** industry is dominated by the likes of Quake and other online multiplayer games. The sim racing community is much smaller than it would be otherwise because of a lack of attention to this crucial element. Why it has been neglected I do not understand! It seems to me that Papy is happy to dominate the local U.S. market and keep them happy with NROS. It will take another company to spark them into action by cutting into this base of drivers with an international solution. I was surprised when myself and Christer Anderson were told by former Papy employee, Mike Lescault, that Papy had toyed with an OnOffline idea for Hawaii but scrapped it and his general attitude seemed to be that they couldn't care less about it! Sad indeed! Hopefully they know something about up and coming data transfer technology that no one else on planet earth is aware of to date? Doubtful!

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> For instance, NASCAR2 has been available as an on-line game in the > United States for over a year (TEN and before that, Hawaii). Here in > the Antipodes we are still awaiting such a thing to become available. > Official reason from the major on-line *** service here is "not > enough customers interested in that type of on-line ***". This is > very true...there just is not a large enough population to warrant the > expense of a server being setup to run something like NASCAR on-line. > Australia, with a population of 16 million, wwould have only a very tiny > percentage who would actually have NASCAR racing, let alone the need or > wish to run it on-line.

Main reason being, as you almost imply, is that there is no sim setup to do so that particularly interests Aussies or anyone outside the U.S. If GP3 is networkable I'd say we'll see a change to this REAL fast! Maybe even GPL, though I think it's more "cultish". Also Bruce, if you haven't already, check this out! [link lost in import: /~w-41236/OnlineRacing.html]

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> >I'd also like to be able to see > >immediate lap times in practice/testing mode rather than having to wait for the completion > >of the next lap - this is simply an exercise in time waisting IMO! > This, for me, is all part of the atmosphere of the sim - an atmosphere > which should be consistent. If practice/training shows times > immediately then it is annoyance when you can't get the same in > qualifying. If you always have to make the adjustment then it is not > an issue (or less of an issue at least).

I don't think I'd mind this in qual either because we would be puting X amount of fuel in the car, using the first 1 or 2 laps to warm the tyres and ?engine? up (MY BIG PREDICTION - 1 lap of the 'Ring should warm everything up), and then just drive the nuts (seemed so much more appropriate than "balls") off it till we don't have enough fuel to do another lap! Don't like this practice/testing lapboard delay though!

Funnily enough, I have rarely bothered with "testing".....not in any racing sim that I've ever owned have I ever considered it to be a "must" for me to get involved with. I've either used a stock set-up, someones' suggestions or just dropped the wings a few notches, slapped on some "C" tyres and that's it!! :o) My entertainment simply comes from the "driving" and when I get jack of it (the sim) I simply give it a rest for a while.....maybe even delete it from the computer for several weeks. Although it will take a long time for that feeling to come around with GPL, I am sure! Nope...."setting-up and testing", whilst an integral feature of any sim worth its salt, is something that I can live without for my entertainment. I use my imagination to pretend that the test driver has done all the hard work! :o) > Something that I wish to clarify here too Bruce. I like and almost insist on it staying > as is under *race* conditions, but I'm sure that everyone, including your good self, will > find it very tedious after a while in testing. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

I agree Bruce, and there`s another factor too, a large part of the "game" buying audience are plain not interrested in playing against other people, they want to sit down and enjoy the game on their own, not being affected by other peoples demands on how a game should be played (arcade/simulator/whatever) I don`t know how many copies of N2 was sold in the US, but there`s "only" about 6500 who play it on TEN I play N2 on TEN, N2 is ideal for online playing in that you`re always battling with someone on the track, you`re almost never alone GPL around Nurburgring, hm.......I don`t know, 20 cars around a 20+ km track, you could basically be driving every lap except the first one without ever seeing another car, wow, exciting, err........, however, when playing alone against the PC I can adjust the AI to run at my pace, and presuming that the AI is any good, I can do this for the whole race N2 is a game I never play offline (I don`t really like Nascar) except for testing purposes (well I run the TPTCC, but that`s something else :-), but I love playing online, from what I`ve seen, there`s a big chance the opposite will be true with GPL I also play strategy games, I love playing Age of Empire on the Zone, but I`ve played is as much offline as I`ve played it online, and it`s the only strategy game I`ve been interrested in playing online as well, because I usually like to play at my own pace, think things through and hit the "pause" key whenever I feel like it Conclusion; I like playing online, but it`s no requirement for me, just a nice bonus if it`s possible, and being on the retail end of games and hardware, the feedback I get from my customers is much the same Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

I guess I missed those last 4 words. I got confused since there is no practice to leave or join up with while in progress in MTM2. He mentioned MTM2 and F1RS. Two very different ways of online racing. With MTM2 (I'm sure you already know this) you just have people type in you IP address and go. I guess the only difference between CPR and GPL TCP/IP race setup is the practice sessions. Thanks for the info. Dave DmndDave

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>What John meant about coming_and_going whenever someone feels like it, >is that unlike MTM2/CPR - where you have a meeting area, GPL allows >you to join a parctice session ALREADY in progress. No more re- >grouping. >If the time is set for say 40-min, and you've got to go eat din-din, >then you can rejoin the practice afterwards (provided no booting from >the host/paticipants have occured. You can disconnect from the 'net, >and then dial into your sever at anytime to rejoin. Pretty neat! =) >Cheers! >Marc

I don't understand how some of those surveyed felt tied to a schedule by racing online? I just connect to the Zone whenever I want to race. Also, while I understand some people don't have an interest in online ***, auto/motorsport racing is all about competition. Human competition being the best. Even if only a small minority wanted online racing (which I don't believe) then it should be put in. The technology is there. Others have done it so there is no excuse. Dave DmndDave

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>Thanks, Goy. >Your comments echo those of many of our customers: we carried out a >survey regarding on-line *** and it was, I must admit, a surprise >that the majority had no interest in on-line ***. >Most cited the reason as not wishing to be tied to a schedule when it >came to using their computer for relaxation: if they worked with >computers (9 to 5) then they were damned if they were going to "work" >when playing games!

Thanks, Goy. Your comments echo those of many of our customers: we carried out a survey regarding on-line *** and it was, I must admit, a surprise that the majority had no interest in on-line ***. Most cited the reason as not wishing to be tied to a schedule when it came to using their computer for relaxation: if they worked with computers (9 to 5) then they were damned if they were going to "work" when playing games! > some equally interesting stuff! -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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> Funnily enough, I have rarely bothered with "testing".....not in any > racing sim that I've ever owned have I ever considered it to be a "must" > for me to get involved with. > I've either used a stock set-up, someones' suggestions or just dropped > the wings a few notches, slapped on some "C" tyres and that's it!! :o) > My entertainment simply comes from the "driving" and when I get jack of > it (the sim) I simply give it a rest for a while.....maybe even delete > it from the computer for several weeks. Although it will take a long > time for that feeling to come around with GPL, I am sure! > Nope...."setting-up and testing", whilst an integral feature of any sim > worth its salt, is something that I can live without for my > entertainment. I use my imagination to pretend that the test driver has > done all the hard work! :o)

Ah haa! Now I understand. Well, you can be sure that those of us who strive to win in leagues spend as much time sorting setups, if not more, then we do actually racing the event. I normally find the racing the easiest part of the whole thing! I must say Bruce that you are only getting half the sim experience by skipping the wonders and art of setups. Getting good at it and consequently being able to run with pretty much anyone around is EXTREMELY rewarding I find! Time is of the essence of course - if you quit posting to this NG for a while you'll no doubt become a genius at it! LOL.

Btw Richard, what is the NROS like. Much warping? An overview from your European perspective would be much appreciated. Pro's and cons. I have even heard Americans report "some" warping! I must confess I was forgetting Europe, but in any case I'd like to know the ratio of Europeans to Americans if you know off hand. Anyway, my point was that Papy seem to be chiefly concerned with the American market ie a Yank based sim and the NROS server based in the U.S. Not that I blame them of course, particularly with this sim. I just can't understand their, and other companies to date, seeming lack of interest in multiplayer for the world! Ubisoft seemed to be impeded by the F1 bozos for some unknown reason but a pure online approach is not practical (particularly without an NROS type setup) IMO.

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> > Main reason being, as you almost imply, is that there is no sim setup to do so that > >particularly interests Aussies or anyone outside the U.S. > Sorry to disappoint you, Byron, but racing on NROS/TEN is eminently > possible from Europe, so it's not just limited to the US. I've had several > 100% (500 mile!) races as well as innumerable shorter ones. > Still not much good for you, but it's not quite as limited as you are > implying. > Cheers, > Richard > -- > We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions > whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

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> I don't understand how some of those surveyed felt tied to a schedule by > racing online? I just connect to the Zone whenever I want to race. Also, > while I understand some people don't have an interest in online ***, > auto/motorsport racing is all about competition. Human competition being the > best. Even if only a small minority wanted online racing (which I don't > believe) then it should be put in. The technology is there. Others have done > it so there is no excuse. > Dave > DmndDave

Dave You`re leaving one important thing out of your equation, money While a large number of people may enjoy online-***, they do not require that it be in the game to buy it, so the developers have to weigh for and against, after all, they are supposed to make money from it As for the schedule thing, once you get to know people you play against, on the Zone, on TEN or whatever, you soon start*** with certain "crowds", join leagues or whatever, then you`re into a schedule right ? Don`t get me wrong here, I enjoy online ***, but I`d sure as hell buy GPL even if didn`t even support LAN, I could lock myself in and play this sim for ever if it`s anything as good as the demo promises it to be and probably not miss playing it online very much, but then again I haven`t played it against other humans, so I may be totally wrong of course, only time will tell :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN (As for human competition, you`ve not played much N2 on TEN have you :-)

No, David, you're missing their point: they use the computer for entertainment, relaxation, a spot of *** rather than work, a few hours an evening for a wind-down. They DO NOT want to use it for competition with other humans, particularly where it is necessary to "be on-line between the hours of...." This was the BIG factor, the really major beef; that scheduling took away the very reason that they used the computer when playing games....that they did so when *THEY* felt like it and *IF* they felt like it. It was only after getting this type of response that we realised that there is a large sector of the *** industry who perceives that the majority of people who use their computers for entertainment want to play games head-to-head with other humans. Nothing could be further from the truth, it seems. It was interesting that cost was secondary to independance...although not by much! :o) > while I understand some people don't have an interest in online > ***, > auto/motorsport racing is all about competition. Human competition being the > best. Even if only a small minority wanted online racing (which I don't > believe) Well, believe it. The majority of rec.autos.simulators NG may want it but they are represent a minority of games buyers and users. A very, very tiny minority! -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

HAHA! :o) No, Byron....*MY* entertainment is *MY* thing, as your entertainment is yours, and so on. I have raced in off-line leagues because of the entertainment value, not because I had any great desire to win. Simply the fact of having an address to which I emailed my race result made not the slightest difference to how I went about the game! I played Indianapols 500 for ages without ever finishing a race (it couldn't be saved) but it didn't lessen my enjoyment of the experience. In GP1 I couldn't drive a car in wet conditions to save my life so I simply missed the wet races! :o) To me it's relaxation and the ability to marvel at what technology is capable of....nothing more. > I must say Bruce that you are only getting half the sim experience by > skipping the > wonders and art of setups. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

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> On Mon, 24 Aug 1998 18:55:31 -0300, Rafael Medeiros > You don't need a Sierra private server, you make your own. It's a bit > like Quake - you setup a server (just by connecting to the internet > and launching GPL), others enter your IP address and connect to your > system and away you go - it's easy, and very convenient. Not like F1RS

I always thought that Quake World was some sort of UNIX based server program that operated independently of the actual game. Is that wrong? What we need is a way to eliminate the slowest part of an internet connection from the process - namely, the phone line connection between the host's modem and his ISP. If there was a UNIX based server program for GPL that would run on a shell account, you would have a much faster connection for all the clients, and bandwidth wouldn't be much of an issue. That would basically equate to NROS wouldn't it? As long as we are still tied to having all the positional data traveling through the host's phone line connection to the internet, it seems like on-line racing outside of a dedicated server will not progress very far. The only way to effectively host a race would be with a cable modem connection or something similar. That was a real limitation back in the Kali days of N2. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

>As long as we are still tied to having all the positional >data traveling through the host's phone line connection >to the internet, it seems like on-line racing outside >of a dedicated server will not progress very far. The >only way to effectively host a race would be with a >cable modem connection or something similar It already has progressed farther than you think possibly. What is the newest racing title that you've tried online? There are racing games out right now that provide excellent online play. I don't expect the progression will suddenly stop either. Dave DmndDave

I guess I can understand their not wanting to compete with humans, but the time thing doesn't make much sense to me, unless they only race/play their friends. I don't know how detailed this survey was, but was it specific to sports sims, and racing games in particular? Men and women respondents? How many of the respondents were regular internet users? Sport and racing game enthusiasts would be much more interested in online play than some of the other *** genres I'd expect. These are just some questions I'd like to know the answers to before I'd fully believe the last part of your post. Then again, I try not to make decisions without hard facts either, so I'm certainly open to the possibility of being wrong. Either way, racing sims, more than most other games, demands the ability to race online so the majority of gamers opinions doesn't really matter all that much to me in this case. Regardless of what someone may think of MS, they do seem to hit on the trends of the software industry as their success proves. Why do you think they have made online racing such a priority with their releases? Their last 3 motorsport releases (CPR, MTM2, and MCM) all have online racing a top feature. Their following motorsport games will do the same I'm sure. Actually, they seem to be making it a priority in most of their *** releases, and the Zone is part of that. I believe the poll you took is correct in it's results, but I also see what MS is doing so your thoughts would be interesting. Dave DmndDave .

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>No, David, you're missing their point: they use the computer for >entertainment, relaxation, a spot of *** rather than work, a few >hours an evening for a wind-down. They DO NOT want to use it for >competition with other humans, particularly where it is necessary to "be >on-line between the hours of...." >This was the BIG factor, the really major beef; that scheduling took >away the very reason that they used the computer when playing >games....that they did so when *THEY* felt like it and *IF* they felt >like it. >It was only after getting this type of response that we realised that >there is a large sector of the *** industry who perceives that the >majority of people who use their computers for entertainment want to >play games head-to-head with other humans. Nothing could be further from >the truth, it seems. >It was interesting that cost was secondary to independance...although >not by much! :o) >Regards, >Bruce. >----------

What about my MS question? There has to be a reason why they are making online *** such a priority. Dave DmndDave >David, from our customer database we took the names of all those who had >bought motor-sports and flight-simulator games that could be played >on-line or head-to-head or through a dedicated LAN arrangement. >This amounted to over 400 customers.

David, from our customer database we took the names of all those who had bought motor-sports and flight-simulator games that could be played on-line or head-to-head or through a dedicated LAN arrangement. This amounted to over 400 customers. Of the total, (I can't recall actual figures) the vast majority used the Internet at either work or home or both. That is, they were familiar with the Internet and what it offered. The vast majority of buyers did not game on-line and expressed no interest in doing so. Now, the city in which I live has the highest number of computer users in the country (per capita) and one of the highest ratios in the western world). Naturally, this statistic is brought about by this being a government town and people using computers everyday in the workplace. Which brings us back to the start: when they relax, they want to forget that the human race exists! They've had enough of dealing with people for 8 or more hours and just want to fall into the realms of fantasy and use their imaginations for a while, without being encumbered by having to cater to others. > I don't know how detailed this survey was, but was it specific to > sports sims, and racing games in particular? Men and women respondents? How > many of the respondents were regular internet users? Sport and racing game > enthusiasts would be much more interested in online play than some of the > other *** genres I'd expect. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 15:04:52 -0400, "David G Fisher" >It seems to me from everything I read and hear that online *** is now and >will be in the future, the key ingredient of PC games. At least that's what >I see here in the States. That may be what we're force fed and what the magazine's say, but it's not what I see and hear. Looking at a U.S., of the top 20 games listed 2 have dedicated online play and two have some rudimentary support - 16 don't. It may be the future, the medium to long term future, but it isn't now. The fact that it is now for us should't blind us to the fact that it isn't now for the vast majority. You can race AI as well as you can race humans - in fact AI are much better than most humans driving-wise. It's simply a perception or an issue of personal satisfaction that it's better to beat humans. Racing is racing - I could provide Jackie Stewart in AI form and it would _still_ be better and more satisfying to race and beat your best mate online - that's human nature and achievement of personal goals. We agree to disagree there. I don't think it would make an iota of difference to MTM2 or CPR sales if they couldn't be raced online, MS is just looking to the future as they are doing with IE. Why fight a strong opponent when you can kill off a weak one? Cheers! John

On Tue, 25 Aug 1998 13:59:20 -0400, "David G Fisher" >You can do the same thing with MTM2 and CPR. Well, in MTM2 and CPR you can't jump in and out of the session whenever you like and you can't have 20 simultaneous players mixing LAN and internet, but otherwise I suppose it's the same ;-) GPL does take this to a new level, which is good since others will surely (hopefully) follow. Cheers! John

I would disagree with this pretty strongly. It would, but only because it was GP3, not because it was online capable. Anyway, GPL is online capable also, extremely capable :-) Cheers! John

On Wed, 26 Aug 1998 15:19:26 -0400, "David G Fisher" >I guess I missed those last 4 words. I got confused since there is no >practice to leave or join up with while in progress in MTM2. He mentioned >MTM2 and F1RS. Two very different ways of online racing. With MTM2 (I'm sure >you already know this) you just have people type in you IP address and go. I >guess the only difference between CPR and GPL TCP/IP race setup is the >practice sessions. Hi David, The difference is slightly more - in GPL I can hop in, turn some laps, quit out, select a different car, go back, quit out of GPL altogether, drop the connection, connect with a new ISP, reload GPL and STILL go back and join the session - as long as the race hasn't started I can join or quit anytime I like, even switch the PC off and go have my dinner. It is pretty useful - as you can easily imagine, any person who gets a latency boot can hop straight back in again. Cheers! John

On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:03:14 -0500, Pat Dotson >I always thought that Quake World was some sort of UNIX based >server program that operated independently of the actual game. >Is that wrong? QuakeWorld is a version of Quake that works online, essentially a client program that hooks up over the net with servers that you join. You can hop in and out of games on these servers anytime you like, provided the host/administrator allows this. It's not independent of the game in that it accesses the same maps, graphics, etc, but it is a separate EXE with additional options for reducing latency etc. Every client would still have their 'phone, modem and ISP, that doesn't eliminate it. As with any other online game, the host should be whoever in your group has the best blend of fast system, good bandwidth and low latency. Cheers! John

MS have the where-withall to do so because fast, on-line activity is extremely important to them for their corporate business. If their *** division benefits by their emphasis on such technology for business, well and good. (However, they still contract out for their games development). And we all know Mr.Gates' enthusiasm for the "information super-highway" ideal. Not all *** developers have the same arrangement, where one section of their business benefits from another section (business software vs *** software). > What about my MS question? There has to be a reason why they are making > online *** such a priority. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

If the AI was that accurate then I'd rather have a go at beating JS, thanks. > - I could provide Jackie Stewart in AI form and it would > _still_ be better and more satisfying to race and beat your best mate > online - that's human nature and achievement of personal goals. -- Regards, Bruce. ----------

> > Well, the way I see things, is that if you have a computer capable of running GPL then > >you would be a very good chance of also being on the net. > I would disagree with this pretty strongly. Why? Ok then, replace GP3 with ICR2 or GP2 if you like. Or any decent open wheel sim (are there others?. F1RS - maybe.) Or any decent racing *sim* for that matter. Like the up and coming Professional Sports Car Sim! However, you seem to be saying that GPL will be multiplayable internationally. What's your experience playing against others in Europe and the U.S.? And how many drivers at once? Theoretically I have my doubts about all this. Especially from here in Aus :(

> >Btw Richard, what is the NROS like. Much warping? An overview from your European > >perspective would be much appreciated. Pro's and cons. I have even heard Americans report > >"some" warping! > *Any* solution that uses the Internet will have warping, yes even the > "OnOffLine" one, it's just how it's presented that differs. Untrue! OnOffline, as described on Christer's site, would have *ZERO* warping. The concept, simply put, is this ; You are basically having an AI race but the data recieved from incoming data packets determines the speed of your opponents ie if an incoming packet shows that a car should be a few metres ahead of where it is, it speeds it up a bit. And vice versa. The AI controls the CCs when they are in close contact with you with collision detection on. If you are ahead of a car that wants to be further forward than it currently is then it will be given more power, traction, aggression, etc. This will continue to increase if the incoming packet indicates that it is increasingly falling further behind where it should be. (This would represent the case where a driver on another computer passed you and was pulling away). Anyway, as you can see, no warping here. Even if there is packet loss or delays, etc, the computer simply takes over. Any type of decent connection works here!

> While a large number of people may enjoy online-***, they do not > require that it be in the game to buy it, so the developers have to > weigh for and against, after all, they are supposed to make money from > it Hmmmmm. Maybe. For now. For a little while. Once you grow accustomed to online *** and even offline sim racing leagues, there's no going back to competing against *predictable, unable to impove/adapt* AI. I think once people get a taste of online *** then nothing else will suffice. I remember when I first got on the net around Xmas 1996. My computer increased in value 1000 fold easily. Remember the difference? I was a Command & Conquer freak for months! :) I'll never forget sitting there in awe of the fact that I was talking with people from all over the globe and then able to play this RTS game against a totally unpredictable, thinking/adapting on the fly, human opponent. No comparison to playing the computer at all, which quickly becomes a matter of not if you will win, but how quickly you can! In fact, I have been racing in offline leagues for just on 12 months. Thousands of laps at over 30 different tracks. I have always loved racing sims but have never even come close to completing an entire season against the AI. Even though GP2 and ICR2 can be made as fast as you like, there's still something moronic and dull about it all IMO.

> You can race AI as well as you can race humans - in fact AI are much > better than most humans driving-wise. It's simply a perception or an > issue of personal satisfaction that it's better to beat humans. Racing > is racing - I could provide Jackie Stewart in AI form and it would > _still_ be better and more satisfying to race and beat your best mate > online - that's human nature and achievement of personal goals. A few things. Most AI I have ever seen, whether in racing sims or whatever, becomes predictable real fast. Even if they make the AI be a little unpredictable and perhaps run into you, it's like "Oh, the way the computer crunched the numbers there made the car run into me!" Not my idea of fun. Besides, abusing the AI has no effect in my experience, but then again nor does abusing most humans, so maybe you do have a point! Still, I prefer to abuse real people rather than my computer. My shrink says this is healthier too! :)

The concept also means that the cars do not represent what the driver is actually doing, and the car has to perform unlike it would in real life (in order to move forward or backward from perceived position to actual position). It compromises realism against latency much as Quake does. Cheers! John

Several reasons, which I started to write out then realised it was going to take ages and decided I couldn't be bothered! I don't care if TOCA2 utterly kicked ass online, the rest of the game has to be there before it will be a success. I personally don't see online play as a huge selling point so far, but I _do_ see online play as something hugely important for a company to be developing strongly just now, so that the major issues will be ironed out by the time it _is_ a big selling point. I have a lot of experience playing against others in Europe and also intercontinental racing across to the U.S.. Numbers are difficult, because there's not all that many testers just now, and tweaking is still ongoing. We've easily had Europeans online with Americans in the same race though, and I suspect that Australia should also be possible at least to Asia and the west coast of the U.S., if not further. All depends upon the quality of the connections as with any internet game - if your pings are fine then you will be able to play. I've had some incredibly playable races all the way across the U.S. and the Atlantic (some 10 hours flying time) despite poor pings, so it is certainly a possibility to race from Australia. Failing that you'll have to race other Antipodeans, getting your ass kicked by Dave Mansell all the time :-) Cheers! John

Naturally, but my point was that even if the computer was a perfect sim driver, capable of abstract thought and Schumacher like reasoning to punt you off and snatch the championship, it's still only a computer. Most people would rather race their mates, and that's where the perception of "human is better than AI". It isn't empirically any "better", it's just more satisfying (although it could be argued that that makes it better!). I'm not going to mention the subject of your abuse, that's your business... :-) Cheers! John

> It is pretty useful - as you can easily imagine, any person who gets a > latency boot can hop straight back in again. ...and with that boot kick some poor, unsuspecting, innocent, vulnerable, and all_around_nice_guy American's ***without a care in the world. ;) -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

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> Hmmmmm. Maybe. For now. For a little while. Once you grow accustomed to online *** > and even offline sim racing leagues, there's no going back to competing against > *predictable, unable to impove/adapt* AI. I think once people get a taste of online *** > then nothing else will suffice. I remember when I first got on the net around Xmas 1996. > My computer increased in value 1000 fold easily. Remember the difference? I was a Command > & Conquer freak for months! :) I'll never forget sitting there in awe of the fact that I > was talking with people from all over the globe and then able to play this RTS game > against a totally unpredictable, thinking/adapting on the fly, human opponent. No > comparison to playing the computer at all, which quickly becomes a matter of not if you > will win, but how quickly you can! > In fact, I have been racing in offline leagues for just on 12 months. Thousands of laps > at over 30 different tracks. I have always loved racing sims but have never even come > close to completing an entire season against the AI. Even though GP2 and ICR2 can be made > as fast as you like, there's still something moronic and dull about it all IMO.

That last one (moronic, not dull) sounds like a "pickup-race"on TEN :-D Seriously though, I LOVE racing on TEN, I don`t get to do it as much as I`d like to, for a number of reasons, and yes I agree that racing AI is boring after racing humans, unless the AI is tweaked by people who know what they`re doing, racing the AI in the TPTCC is actually good fun I pretty much agree with everything you said, but talking to friends and customers; suprisingly few of them are _that_ interrested in online play.... I have this friend/customer, national champion here in Norway 2 years ago in tarmac racing, he buys _every_ racing/rally game/sim I get in the store (unless I tell him they`re utter junk),he has internet and dowloads carsets and stuff, he has watched me race on TEN, yet he has shown no interrest in joining, even though I offered to help him get an account, he`s plain not interrested Same thing applies to others as well, but of course, once it gets more widespread and more easily accessible, like "the Zone", more and more people will enjoy it, I`m sure, you just have to get the ball running, and Microsoft may well be the company to do so with "the Zone", free accounts, easily accessible and the resources to back it up, sounds just about right to me, so although I don`t see online-play as a strong selling point at the moment, those who do not plan for it will be left behind, because it will _become_ a selling point in the (maybe not so distant) future Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

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> On Thu, 27 Aug 1998 09:03:14 -0500, Pat Dotson > >I always thought that Quake World was some sort of UNIX based > >server program that operated independently of the actual game. > >Is that wrong? > QuakeWorld is a version of Quake that works online, essentially a > client program that hooks up over the net with servers that you join. > You can hop in and out of games on these servers anytime you like, > provided the host/administrator allows this. It's not independent of > the game in that it accesses the same maps, graphics, etc, but it is a > separate EXE with additional options for reducing latency etc.

Does it run under Win95 or what? Are the Quake World servers typically home PC's? Sure, the clients will almost always be limited to the phone connection. But, you can eliminate the bottleneck of the data from all the clients going into and coming out of the server if the server was able to operate in, say, a UNIX shell account on the ISP system of the host. Maybe it's not possible, but it seems like a good idea to me. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> Hmmmmm. Maybe. For now. For a little while. Once you grow accustomed to online *** >and even offline sim racing leagues, there's no going back to competing against >*predictable, unable to impove/adapt* AI. I think once people get a taste of online *** >then nothing else will suffice. I totally agree. Racing the AI is a bore compared to racing online. I've yet to see any sim where the AI was very impressive. When I race online, especially with people who I know are very good, the heart starts pumping and the race can be very, very exciting. Part of the challenge is controlling that e***ment (staying cool) and reading the minds of your opponents. You have to be able to predict where they will make their mistakes and then take advantage. Probably the best feeling in sim racing is to stay on the tail of a competitor you know, wait, and wait, and wait, until they drift a little wide in a corner, and then dive inside and blow by them. If the game you are using has provided some way to rub it in (honk of the horn, gesture) then you use it. :-) When you match up online with people of equal skill, and win or even lose races by a an incredibly close margin, it's a big thrill and incredible fun. I honestly think I might be ***ed to it. :-) Dave DmndDave

If you try eating dinner, changing cars, changing ISP's, doing your hair, etc., in a race I'm hosting, you're getting booted real quick! :-) Dave DmndDave

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>>Hi David, >The difference is slightly more - in GPL I can hop in, turn some laps, >quit out, select a different car, go back, quit out of GPL altogether, >drop the connection, connect with a new ISP, reload GPL and STILL go >back and join the session - as long as the race hasn't started I can >join or quit anytime I like, even switch the PC off and go have my >dinner. >It is pretty useful - as you can easily imagine, any person who gets a >latency boot can hop straight back in again. >Cheers! >John

I dont think online *** in the future will be "secondary to stand-alone ***." Just look at Quake Arena, online only quake sequal. Games are starting to move to online only. When everyone gets those wonderful ASDL or cable modems in a few years we'll have enough speed to race with 30 some drivers and no lag over the net. Then single player vs. the AI will be "secondary." Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

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>Byron, you >are refusing to accept the basic fact that we are all individuals and >what appeals to one does not necessarily appeal to another. >I will agree that on-line *** will grow as technology improves the >playing arena but it will still be secondary to stand-alone ***. >A well-crafted AI will always provide sufficient competition for the >vast majority of players, those that look at the game as just >that......a game. >> Hmmmmm. Maybe. For now. For a little while. Once you grow accustomed

to online *** >> and even offline sim racing leagues, there's no going back to competing against >> *predictable, unable to impove/adapt* AI. I think once people get a taste of online ***

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>> then nothing else will suffice. >-- >Regards, >Bruce. >---------- >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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> I dont think online *** in the future will be "secondary to stand-alone > ***." Just look at Quake Arena, online only quake sequal. Games are > starting to move to online only. When everyone gets those wonderful ASDL or > cable modems in a few years we'll have enough speed to race with 30 some > drivers and no lag over the net. Then single player vs. the AI will be > "secondary." > Arthur > s t e a l t h > r a c i n g > http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html

Yeah, but how many people have you heard say that they are extremely disapointed that the next Quake is online only. I have only played I and II online a couple of times for various reasons, but I loved to play it alone and try to work through the whole game. I just hope more companys don't follow and go with online only games. Maybe it would be good. I wouldn't need to upgrade my computer anymore.

Byron, you are refusing to accept the basic fact that we are all individuals and what appeals to one does not necessarily appeal to another. I will agree that on-line *** will grow as technology improves the playing arena but it will still be secondary to stand-alone ***. A well-crafted AI will always provide sufficient competition for the vast majority of players, those that look at the game as just that......a game. > Hmmmmm. Maybe. For now. For a little while. Once you grow accustomed to online *** > and even offline sim racing leagues, there's no going back to competing against > *predictable, unable to impove/adapt* AI. I think once people get a taste of online *** > then nothing else will suffice. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Well I never said get rid of single player, I just said it will probably be "secondary" in online racing sims in a few years. BTW if you really want a good single player first person shooter why the hell are you playing quake 1/2 and not unreal? Arthur s t e a l t h r a c i n g http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html >> I dont think online *** in the future will be "secondary to stand-alone >> ***." Just look at Quake Arena, online only quake sequal. Games are >> starting to move to online only. When everyone gets those wonderful ASDL or

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>> cable modems in a few years we'll have enough speed to race with 30 some >> drivers and no lag over the net. Then single player vs. the AI will be >> "secondary." >> Arthur >> s t e a l t h >> r a c i n g >> http://www.***sys.com/stealthracing.html > Yeah, but how many people have you heard say that they are extremely >disapointed that the next Quake is online only. I have only played I >and II online a couple of times for various reasons, but I loved to play >it alone and try to work through the whole game. I just hope more >companys don't follow and go with online only games. Maybe it would be >good. I wouldn't need to upgrade my computer anymore.

I'll kick anyone's ***anytime, and anyway, Doug didn't take it too bad. He's usually the one that kicks my butt, so it was nice to have the chance to take advantage of him and John falling over each other at Nouveau Monde to win last weekend. Amazingly enough I lucked into another couple of wins at Monza too. Don't worry, you'll be on the receiving end in a week or two... ;-) Cheers! John

That's correct! Point is, it's a massive improvement over offline racing isn't it?

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> > Untrue! OnOffline, as described on Christer's site, would have *ZERO* warping. The > >concept, simply put, is this ; > The concept also means that the cars do not represent what the driver > is actually doing, and the car has to perform unlike it would in real > life (in order to move forward or backward from perceived position to > actual position). It compromises realism against latency much as Quake > does. > Cheers! > John

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> > Untrue! OnOffline, as described on Christer's site, would have *ZERO* warping. The > >concept, simply put, is this ; > I know the concept well, I just put a very different interpretation on the > results than Christer and yourself. We've covered this enough in the past > so I don't intend to go over it all again. None of us would know what it > would turn out without seeing an actual implementation. Suffice to say that > if Papy looked into it and rejected it then they must have had their > reasons.

Yes, maybe. If they considered it seriously. But they can't even find the time to implement weather at present so that may have something to do with it. I would say that the common meaning of warping is simply that a car "jumps" instantaneously from one point to another. Warping has nothing to do with what your saying ie that the cars position is not a perfect indication of where it really is. By decent, I virtually mean one that doesn't drop out. Even if it did, and the game had an "auto reconnect" feature then even this would be ok! Pure online racing with pings in the 1000 - 2000 range is simply not possible. Unless it has so much prediction or use of the AI that it becomes OnOffline!

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> Same thing applies to others as well, but of course, once it gets more > widespread and more easily accessible, like "the Zone", more and more > people will enjoy it, I`m sure, you just have to get the ball running, > and Microsoft may well be the company to do so with "the Zone", free > accounts, easily accessible and the resources to back it up, sounds just > about right to me, so although I don`t see online-play as a strong > selling point at the moment, those who do not plan for it will be left > behind, because it will _become_ a selling point in the (maybe not so > distant) future

Yeah Goy, getting the ball rolling is key I think. There is no buzz in the air, internationally, about online sim racing because no sim racing company has the vision to get the ball rolling at this point unfortunately. Or at least not yet. When someone does, and word spreads about it, I'm sure we will see the sim community grow substantially! Even if they do put more emphasis on it, I fear they will walk the pure online route with very limited success. Maybe I'm just a selfish Aussie about this, but I doubt pure online racing is practical at this point, even excluding Australia and other remote places.

> Failing that you'll have to race > other Antipodeans, getting your ass kicked by Dave Mansell all the > time :-) Hey, I'm just letting him burn himself out in the demo. That's why I got that Monza track released. LOL. Burn Dave, burn!

Oh Byron, that was you?? My mistake.. I thought it was some European magazine that released Monza!! Thanks Byron, my mistake!.. (actually, if you want to get technical, it was Sim Racer & Me!!) :o)) doktorB p.s.: John, what's your fastest time at Monza (with a "good" setup?) > Hey, I'm just letting him burn himself out in the demo. That's why I got that Monza >track released. LOL. Burn Dave, burn!

Yeah....sure thing. You'll excuse my scepticism, I'm sure, Arthur, but we've heard it all before. It's one thing to be a crazily enthusiastic and hyped up spokesperson (I'm not referring to you!)for new and exciting technology but it gets rather tiresome after hearing the same message from the same sector for so many years. One day it will come, but so will nutritious junk-food, perpetual motion and combustible fuel from water. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Hi All... Been following this thread with some interest. Thought I might inject a veiwpoint from the "Mr. Average" perspective. That is, I loved real Nascar, saw the first Nascar Racing 1 (in '94?), bought it... got hooked... bought more sims, upgrade my 'puter just to run sims... race... play... crash... you get the idea. I'm not that good... but I do have fun. (And that's the bottom line.) Anyway, seeing as I've been racing sims (off and on... a lot more on the off) since N1 days, and seeing as I'm no where near "really good"... just the "Average Joe"... figured I'd share the following: When I first found out about "online" racing, I thought "man, that be a lot of fun." However, not long after discovering r.a.s. (about three years ago) I started reading about online racing. Yep, I read the whining from onliner's about their woes of pings, warping, latentcy problems, line connection problems, lousy human drivers that take you out (accidentily or otherwise), high $$ connection costs, HUGE flame wars concerning the driving style/lack-of of certain drivers (or accusations that they're cheating), threats of The Great Grudge Race that usually followed such inane bantering (reminded me of two roosters trying to dare the other...) glithes, looong hours late at night, or time-tying race schedules, goblins, etc, etc, ad infinitum. But for the most part, onliners almost always say: "You offline guys just don't know what you're missing!!" Don't know what I'm missing? "8^0 My conclusion: This does NOT sound like fun. Nope, not for me. I only race for giggles, and really have nothing I want to prove to anyone else. Also, I want to race when I want, how I want, and with control over my "relaxation" situation. I don't think I want the "Frustration Factor" that all of the above techo-kinks could certainly bring into my racing experience. So, racing humans could be fun... but in addition to the techo-kinks, it also leads to the inevitable "HE CHEATED!", or some other cry from those that feel slighted in an incident or whatever. And that is the bottom line for me. Racing with other humans might offer some fun, but along with the technological problems of online racing, there is the very likely unfun part: Dealing with emotions of humans, theirs AND mine. Nahh... I'll just race my CC's. Besides, with the ability to tweak the AI, custom AI patches, etc... I've got some mighty tough competitors to contend with. Have fun... Andre

I'd question "massive", but it is an improvement. Point is, so is the offline racing we have just now and it is no better than that, worse if anything. I like to know where my opponents are, and to win by luck rather than latency. Cheers! John

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> >> Anyway, getting back to the point <g> - to me "warping" is occurring > >> anytime what I am seeing on my screen is substantially different to what > >> other drivers are seeing on theirs. Doesn't matter if the car infront > >> briefly flickers in and out or is driving very smoothly but on completely > >> the wrong section of track. Both are "warping" IMHO. > > I would say that the common meaning of warping is simply that a car > "jumps" > >instantaneously from one point to another. Warping has nothing to do with > what your saying > >ie that the cars position is not a perfect indication of where it really > is. > Ahh you've never tried Nascar on TEN or HAWAII i see... :) > I've had cars that were half a lap behind me "warp" to a place right infront > of me, stayed there for half a lap or more - looking rock solid like as > there were actually "there" - and then warp back again! > That my friend is warping!

Exactly!

Good points Andre. You might be interested to know that the OnOffline solution would eliminate warping and give other drivers NO chance to punt you off. See here if you have not already - http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/OnlineRacing.html As far as cheating goes, that's in the hands of the developers, another area they cluelessly overlook IMO!

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> Hi All... > Been following this thread with some interest. Thought I might inject a > veiwpoint from the "Mr. Average" perspective. That is, I loved real > Nascar, saw the first Nascar Racing 1 (in '94?), bought it... got > hooked... bought more sims, upgrade my 'puter just to run sims... > race... play... crash... you get the idea. I'm not that good... but I do > have fun. (And that's the bottom line.) Anyway, seeing as I've been > racing sims (off and on... a lot more on the off) since N1 days, and > seeing as I'm no where near "really good"... just the "Average Joe"... > figured I'd share the following: > When I first found out about "online" racing, I thought "man, that be a > lot of fun." > However, not long after discovering r.a.s. (about three years ago) I > started reading about online racing. Yep, I read the whining from > onliner's about their woes of pings, warping, latentcy problems, line > connection problems, lousy human drivers that take you out (accidentily > or otherwise), high $$ connection costs, HUGE flame wars concerning the > driving style/lack-of of certain drivers (or accusations that they're > cheating), threats of The Great Grudge Race that usually followed such > inane bantering (reminded me of two roosters trying to dare the > other...) glithes, looong hours late at night, or time-tying race > schedules, goblins, etc, etc, ad infinitum. But for the most part, > onliners almost always say: "You offline guys just don't know what > you're missing!!" > Don't know what I'm missing? "8^0 My conclusion: This does NOT sound > like fun. > Nope, not for me. I only race for giggles, and really have nothing I > want to prove to anyone else. Also, I want to race when I want, how I > want, and with control over my "relaxation" situation. I don't think I > want the "Frustration Factor" that all of the above techo-kinks could > certainly bring into my racing experience. So, racing humans could be > fun... but in addition to the techo-kinks, it also leads to the > inevitable "HE CHEATED!", or some other cry from those that feel > slighted in an incident or whatever. And that is the bottom line for me. > Racing with other humans might offer some fun, but along with the > technological problems of online racing, there is the very likely unfun > part: Dealing with emotions of humans, theirs AND mine. > Nahh... I'll just race my CC's. > Besides, with the ability to tweak the AI, custom AI patches, etc... > I've got some mighty tough competitors to contend with. > Have fun... > Andre

I do. It's great.

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:01:04 -0500, Pat Dotson >Does it run under Win95 or what? Are the Quake World servers >typically home PC's? Quakeworld only runs under Win95/98. The server can run under NT also (and possibly others), but since it is going to be dishing out information to all the clients the latency and bandwidth are paramount. That's why they are typically run on university systems. It doesn't take much power to run a QuakeWorld server, my clan used to run two on a 486, but it does take a fair amount of memory and an excellent internet connection. It would be a good idea, primarily because it would free up all the power of the system to manage the game (rather than driver inputs, car physics etc). It would also allow servers to be run on high bandwidth, low latency systems and operated remotely, rather than being limited to home systems where few people have truly quick access. Cheers! John

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:07:16 -0400, "David G Fisher" The situation you describe below is very enjoyable, but in my experience is unfortunately not typical of racing online. Most people you meet are "win at all costs", and make crazy manoeuvres to try to beat you. Added to that is the fact that what we are trying to simulate is a Formula One race (or any top level motorsports event), one where all of the drivers are from the very top drawer and separated by 10ths of seconds. That is generally not the case online, since people differ greatly in consistency and speed. The race often settles down to a procession, just waiting for a mistake from someone. Those occasions where you do get people of equal ability and have a stonking fight more than make up for the boring races, but I find that when people are closely matched, something silly happens (like trying to pass around the outside of Ascari....John? :-) ), when people are not closely matched the field spreads out. As you say, with equal skill it's great. What will be nice in GPL is handicapping people with different cars - the fast guys in the slow cars and the slow guys in the fast cars. That should be fun :-)

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 14:17:24 -0400, "David G Fisher" >If you try eating dinner, changing cars, changing ISP's, doing your hair, >etc., in a race I'm hosting, you're getting booted real quick! :-) Heh :-) Nothing wrong with a bit of gamesmanship. Seriously though, I think on the day of GPL's release the internet will be one hell of a place to be. I fully intend a weekend of non-stop online racing. Cheers! John

On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 19:45:29 -0700, Eric Franzen > Yeah, but how many people have you heard say that they are extremely >disapointed that the next Quake is online only. I have only played I >and II online a couple of times for various reasons, but I loved to play >it alone and try to work through the whole game. I just hope more >companys don't follow and go with online only games. Maybe it would be >good. I wouldn't need to upgrade my computer anymore. It's a shame I think since many people play Quake in single-player, but I for one _only_ ever play Quake, Quake2 or Unreal online or against bots. After a massive frantic fragathon somehow empty corridors are unappealing. I'd certainly still buy it if it were multi-player only, provided it shipped with bots (like Unreal) to practice with offline. Cheers! John

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>On Fri, 28 Aug 1998 12:01:04 -0500, Pat Dotson >>Does it run under Win95 or what? Are the Quake World servers >>typically home PC's? >Quakeworld only runs under Win95/98. The server can run under NT also >(and possibly others), but since it is going to be dishing out

Best platform for any QuakeWorld server for network performance and speed is, of course, Linux. Cheers, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

>Best platform for any QuakeWorld server for network performance and >speed is, of course, Linux. Well, it is until you fancy a game of GPL, FIFA98 or any other software anyone cares to mention, and then you suddenly realise you do need Microsoft after all. Cheers! John

>Well, it is until you fancy a game of GPL, FIFA98 or any other >software anyone cares to mention, and then you suddenly realise you do >need Microsoft after all. I'm afraid this is only too true, John. I do have hope though that this situation will change dramatically during the next two years, and I believe we stand a good chance of seeing a native GPL II Linux version. ;-) Cheers, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

>I'm afraid this is only too true, John. I do have hope though that >this situation will change dramatically during the next two years, >and I believe we stand a good chance of seeing a native GPL II Linux >version. ;-) <reeling> Okay, but don't hold your breath for it! :-) Cheers! John

I dont agree on perpetual motion, Bruce, that will never happen, IMO :o). /Christer, do think the posters should of altered the subject line long time ago in this thread, cause now I've seemed to have missed a good one again :o(. -- http://home4.swipnet.se/~w-41236/ (Read all about the "Global online racing"-proposal under "For developers". Read it a couple of times, cause noone has understood it the first time they've read it yet :o))