"DEEP THROAT" speaks! (GPL info).

This is the best news ive heard in a long time! BTW.. warez.. crackers, wont they be hack gpl and get rid of the "watermark" detection? Just a thought... see if we can see this game un-pirated :) Sierra/Papyrus have worked *** this one, they deserve everything they can get.

>It is also most likely that the product could use a hardware >protection system on the CD i.e. put a physical mark on the CD then get >the program to look for that before starting the game. This would stop >people from copying the game because the new CD wouldn't have the >"watermark". Er, um, just curious, Bruce, what kind of CDROM drive I'll have to buy to read this "watermark." Are you talking about a technique similar to that used way back when with floppy disks, where a special format was used that could be read but not reproduced by run-of-the-mill disk drives? I didn't know such a thing existed for CD's, but if so, I'd of thought it would have been used already. Not to rain on your parade, just wondering. :^) Todd

According to a highly-accurate but must-remain-nameless source, GP Legends is going for a simultaneous release in all areas of international distribution. At this time there are very, very few bugs left in the source code and most of the bugs were just alert messages in the wrong language. My source advises that the international sites (where the CDs will be produced for that distribution zone) have been very secretive about Legends: even the people working on the game are searched to make sure they don't take beta CDs home(to stop the pirates). It would appear that release could be expected, internationally, by as early as the end of August/first weeks of September. It is also most likely that the product could use a hardware protection system on the CD i.e. put a physical mark on the CD then get the program to look for that before starting the game. This would stop people from copying the game because the new CD wouldn't have the "watermark". There you have the latest....if my source provides any updates I'll advise. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Todd, I have only passed on, almost word-for-word, what was advised to me. I'm sorry, but I haven't any idea what is being promoted with this "mark" thing.

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> Er, um, just curious, Bruce, what kind of CDROM drive I'll have to buy to > read this "watermark." Are you talking about a technique similar to that > used way back when with floppy disks, where a special format was used that > could be read but not reproduced by run-of-the-mill disk drives? I didn't > know such a thing existed for CD's, but if so, I'd of thought it would have > been used already. Not to rain on your parade, just wondering. :^) > Todd

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

I am guessing that it would be a simular system as used by Sony to stop pirating of PlayStation titles. Don't fear about what sort of CD drive you will need, it will be a software thing. I know we are all dedicated Sim fans but I can't see any company expecting you to drop $90 for a game and $150 for a new CD drive to use it ....... Or maybe they do! so THAT is why everyone is jumping the Sierra ship!!! AB Anthony Bulloch ANTI SPAM DEVICE IN PLACE Replace the last "dot' for Email

>I am guessing that it would be a simular system as used by Sony to >stop pirating of PlayStation titles. Yes, and that didn't work either. Most of these measures are a huge waste of time and money IMO, and should be sufficient to stop people copying CDs at home for their mates. Anything more ambitious than that is a waste of time and money - it will be cracked, regardless of the protection. Cheers! John

Anthony Bulloch wrote Haha.... when GPL ships Sierra will announce that they are making some new CD-Roms that will be able to understand the "watermark"... bizarre Btw.. ^^^ that was a joke about the old Sierra Rendition card/Icr2 things a long time ago... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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> >I am guessing that it would be a simular system as used by Sony to > >stop pirating of PlayStation titles. > Yes, and that didn't work either. Most of these measures are a huge > waste of time and money IMO, and should be sufficient to stop people > copying CDs at home for their mates. Anything more ambitious than that > is a waste of time and money - it will be cracked, regardless of the > protection.

Yepp, the bad guys get their copies anyway, and the honest user has to play CD jockey instead of doing a full install. I hate it! l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

[snap: useful info about GPL being released in Aug/Sept] Are such features supported by ordinary CD-ROM readers, or does one have to buy the most state-of-the-art type available? Han (worried about his 3-year old 4speed CD-ROM drive) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" Cruyff over van Gaal This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I read about this watermark type copy protection about a year ago in PC Magazine. They described it as a pattern imprinted in the cd that is not transferred when someone makes a copy of the cd with a cd-r drive. They said it was virtually uncrackable, but where there's a will there's a way. I'm sure someone will eventually find a way around it.

>I read about this watermark type copy protection about a year ago in PC >Magazine. They described it as a pattern imprinted in the cd that is not >transferred when someone makes a copy of the cd with a cd-r drive. They said >it was virtually uncrackable, but where there's a will there's a way. I'm >sure someone will eventually find a way around it. My reasoning could be completely wrong (as always), but a CD-ROM is a digital media. Therefore, if you start reading out every single bit of it from the first to the last, and then transfer those bits in that sequence to another digital media, you get a 100% copy of that CD-ROM. I cannot think of a way to imprint a "watermark" that can be *read* by standard hardware, but not *written*. OTOH, I'd be glad if some serious copy protection existed. In theory, the price per legitimate copy could drop as soon as pirated copies weren't possible anymore. Then, I and the other poor souls who actually *buy* their games wouldn't have to pay for the pirates as well... -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

>OTOH, I'd be glad if some serious copy protection existed. In theory, >the price per legitimate copy could drop as soon as pirated copies >weren't possible anymore. Then, I and the other poor souls who >actually *buy* their games wouldn't have to pay for the pirates as >well... THAT was the promise of the CD format, more stuff, cheaper to make, impossible to rip (burners running 1000+ then) and CHEAPER to the customer. Well since the market fot the first couple of years was copy proof and we were all buying at same price it looks like it became what the market would bear, and of course it has 49-54 on most titles, and those that went under had ***on them (witness deer hunter) or those that decided on a higher price $99 for back to baghdad went down in flames. So in conclusion we buy the hype wait for the promise and ignore the politics, (uhh sounds like washington doesnt it).

Oh, without a doubt. But that shouldn't prevent or deter the industry from continuing in their efforts to make it more difficult for the "average" user to pirate. And it IS the every-day, average user who makes more illegal copies than you or I can poke sticks at!! The professionals will always be difficult to deter...just the same as professional counterfeiters will always attempt to get around the latest technology used in the printing of banknotes. But we should not give up the fight! > where there's a will there's a way. I'm > sure someone will eventually find a way around it. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

On Fri, 07 Aug 1998 22:13:08 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >The professionals will always be difficult to deter...just the same as >professional counterfeiters will always attempt to get around the latest >technology used in the printing of banknotes. But we should not give up >the fight! Not even when continuing the fight increases the price of the product more than the piracy? Seriously, how much will duplication of a "watermarked" CD cost? How much will it cost to develop the process and the hardware to generate it? All of the customers will pay for that, and then some kid will spend an hour in his bedroom making a patch that tells the game not to look for the watermark while loading. Et voila! Anyone can copy the CD for their mates, and you pay not only for the pirated copies, but for the investment in technology and man hours as well. I'm not saying give it up, but I think it needs to be kept in perspective. Make it a dual format disc with audio and data, and require the CD to play the audio track while loading - very simple, but it makes it more problematic to copy. Probably the simplest thing is to make the game, the whole package, worth buying - CART Racing's book is an excellent example, with the book alone being worth the price. Cheers! John

>But that shouldn't prevent or deter the industry from continuing in >their efforts to make it more difficult for the "average" user to >pirate. I agree, but ONLY if the copy-protection scheme doesn't inconvenience legitimate customers. Personally I like doing full installs and then putting the CD away, and I think I should be allowed to do so. Furthermore, software companies need to stop being so paranoid - there is not that much real money that is actually lost to piracy. They have all these bogus figures x billion $ per year, but the reality is most pirated versions are bought by people who can not or will not afford the real version (i.e., in which case it is not really lost revenue, since there would have been no sale anyway). Joe

> I cannot think of a way to imprint a "watermark" that can be *read* by > standard hardware, but not *written*. The mark could be an intentioanlly damaged sector of the CD that can't contain readable data. When the program checks for its proterction it gets a certain type of read error hitting that sector, traps the error and knows that the CD is legit and not a copy. An *** copy would have an empty but readable sector there, and the program would recognize that as a fake. Trips

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> Oh, without a doubt. > But that shouldn't prevent or deter the industry from continuing in > their efforts to make it more difficult for the "average" user to > pirate. > And it IS the every-day, average user who makes more illegal copies than > you or I can poke sticks at!! > The professionals will always be difficult to deter...just the same as > professional counterfeiters will always attempt to get around the latest > technology used in the printing of banknotes. But we should not give up > the fight!

But the thing that's pissing me off, is the fact that I'm punished for BUYING the game with switching the CDs all the time, while those few (?) professionals put them on their HDs... Any copy protection known up to now, was broken and was only a hassle (sp?) to the honest user... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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>> I cannot think of a way to imprint a "watermark" that can be *read* by >> standard hardware, but not *written*. >The mark could be an intentioanlly damaged sector of the CD that can't >contain readable data. When the program checks for its proterction it >gets a certain type of read error hitting that sector, traps the error >and knows that the CD is legit and not a copy. An *** copy would >have an empty but readable sector there, and the program would recognize >that as a fake. >Trips

Every time I get a read error on my CD-ROM under Windows, it triggers a very low-level fault that manifests itself as a blue-screen. The application software never even has a chance to recover from the error. With the current state of CD-ROM drivers, I have my doubts about this technique being reliable. Can you imagine the outcry of thousands of legitimate customers who can't run the game they paid $49.95 for because of some oddity in their CD-ROM drive? I think Sierra would be taking a big chance on pissing off a lot of people for little in return. I'll gladly pay money for a game that I like, partly for the value-added in the form of a (hopefully) well-written manual and decent customer support, and because its the right thing to do. Those who pirate games do so, in many cases, for the thrill of it, or because they can't afford the games, or wouldn't buy them otherwise. Its been said that there are more pirated copies of Windows 95 floating around (mostly in Asia) than legitimate ones. Do you think Microsoft is hurting because of this? Hell no! Why do you think they give away Internet Explorer? In my view, the more people exposed to a game, the better. If its a good game it will sell well and make money, period. Just ask John Carmack. Todd

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> >> I cannot think of a way to imprint a "watermark" that can be *read* by > >> standard hardware, but not *written*. > >The mark could be an intentioanlly damaged sector of the CD that can't > >contain readable data. When the program checks for its proterction it > >gets a certain type of read error hitting that sector, traps the error > >and knows that the CD is legit and not a copy. An *** copy would > >have an empty but readable sector there, and the program would recognize > >that as a fake. > >Trips > Every time I get a read error on my CD-ROM under Windows, it triggers a very > low-level fault that manifests itself as a blue-screen. The application > software never even has a chance to recover from the error.

If the software was written to trap the error before the OS blue screened, you wouldn't see that problem. This form of protection goes at least all the way back to the "bad sector" scheme on the Atari 800's... Trips

>If the software was written to trap the error before the OS blue >screened, you wouldn't see that problem. You presume that the application (or, more correctly, the programmer) is even given that option. My point is that, as an "open" system, Windows is dependent on certain driver functionality that may vary from one CD-ROM manufacturer to another. I don't know the answer but I question whether it is possible, because of Window's architecture, to do what you describe such that it will work with every CD-ROM driver out there. What a testing nightmare! In any case, I'm not arguing that its impossible, just questioning the robustness of such a technique. Todd

Hackers made their way through the Sentinal dongle protection for high end graphics programs in less than two weeks. The maker of Sentinal said it would take 50,000 years to crack their protection. GPL will be hacked in a much shorter time. There are some extremely talented hackers looking for a good challenge . They will blow right through it in a matter of a couple of weeks if not days. These guys go as far as rewriting the executable program to strip it of any need for a cd check like the one you speak of. Craig

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> According to a highly-accurate but must-remain-nameless source, GP > Legends is going for a simultaneous release in all areas of > international distribution. > At this time there are very, very few bugs left in the source code and > most of the bugs were just alert messages in the wrong language. > My source advises that the international sites (where the CDs will be > produced for that distribution zone) have been very secretive about > Legends: even the people working on the game are searched to make sure > they don't take beta CDs home(to stop the pirates). > It would appear that release could be expected, internationally, by as > early as the end of August/first weeks of September. > It is also most likely that the product could use a hardware > protection system on the CD i.e. put a physical mark on the CD then get > the program to look for that before starting the game. This would stop > people from copying the game because the new CD wouldn't have the > "watermark". > There you have the latest....if my source provides any updates I'll > advise. > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ---------- > The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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>Every time I get a read error on my CD-ROM under Windows, it triggers a very >low-level fault that manifests itself as a blue-screen. The application >software never even has a chance to recover from the error. With the >current state of CD-ROM drivers, I have my doubts about this technique being >reliable. Can you imagine the outcry of thousands of legitimate customers >who can't run the game they paid $49.95 for because of some oddity in their >CD-ROM drive?

Of course, this is PRECISELY the sort of outcry that made more enlightened software companies abandon copy-protection schemes in the first place. It's idiotic, really. A sure sign that the accountants are utterly dominating Sierra (no programmer worth his salt would allow a copy protection scheme if they had ANY say whatsoever). Joe

On Sun, 09 Aug 1998 08:40:29 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >Which is a sure sign as to why programmers shouldn't be allowed to run a >business.......they'd *GIVE* the products away! After 10 hours a day for three years? I doubt it. Cheers! John

Which is a sure sign as to why programmers shouldn't be allowed to run a business.......they'd *GIVE* the products away! > (no programmer worth his salt would allow a copy > protection scheme if they had ANY say whatsoever). -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Good for you, John. > After 10 hours a day for three years? I doubt it. -- Regards, Bruce.

On Sun, 09 Aug 1998 20:47:55 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >Good for you, John. Delighted I could be of service. Cheers! John

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> >If the software was written to trap the error before the OS blue > >screened, you wouldn't see that problem. > You presume that the application (or, more correctly, the programmer) is > even given that option. My point is that, as an "open" system, Windows is > dependent on certain driver functionality that may vary from one CD-ROM > manufacturer to another. I don't know the answer but I question whether it > is possible, because of Window's architecture, to do what you describe such > that it will work with every CD-ROM driver out there. What a testing > nightmare! In any case, I'm not arguing that its impossible, just > questioning the robustness of such a technique. > Todd

I made no comment as to the robustness of such a scheme, all I did was detail one means by which it could be accomplished. Trips

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> >But that shouldn't prevent or deter the industry from continuing in > >their efforts to make it more difficult for the "average" user to > >pirate. > I agree, but ONLY if the copy-protection scheme doesn't inconvenience > legitimate customers. Personally I like doing full installs and then > putting the CD away, and I think I should be allowed to do so.

Agreed 100%. Copy protection has really gotten to the point of a losing situation for all legitimate parties involved. It's not enough of a hassle to the *** pirates, and is too much hassle for the legit consumer. If copy protection (which is rare nowadays anyway) inconveniences me, you bet that the product goes back, period... I'd be quite surprised if Papy went to the bother of some ludicrous hardware copy-protection scheme... :-) ---Jim

Jim Sokoloff wrote About all of this... shouldn't it be more intelligent to make a software copy-protection instead ? I mean a more sophisticated version of MS's CD-Key with an online registration (that could even mean a free 1-800 number) with an unique CD-Key that could be only once registered... Well... oh yeah what about people reinstalling the game, or reformatting their HD. <g> Is there any way to make a something that could indeed work ? Well, maybe at least a solution MHO would be stopping to make Papyrus simulators already "full installation" when they come in the CD. At least that will take off all the warez sites with 1-2weeks old games, the time they will take to crack it (if you can't install it full) and spread the message... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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>About all of this... shouldn't it be more intelligent to make a software >copy-protection instead ? I mean a more sophisticated version of MS's CD-Key >with an online registration (that could even mean a free 1-800 number) with >an unique CD-Key that could be only once registered... >Well... oh yeah what about people reinstalling the game, or reformatting >their HD. ><g> Is there any way to make a something that could indeed work ? Well,

A manual protection like in the old times, for instance it would ask for the third word on page 130 line 23 etc. Maybe that's the only way after awhile, which would reduce (but not totally get rid of) PC piracy. I'm becoming more and more FOR copy protection schemes now that it looks like PC piracy is once again raising its ugly head in force now that there are affordable CD-R drives available. Piracy is one of the reasons why software companies went to CD-ROMs anyway and I liked that, because it meant no manual check ups anymore like in most diskette games. As far as I know lots of PC companies are now feeling the pressure of piracy once again (very thin margins except for the very few games that do sell well like Starcraft), while console game makers are doing much better. I would find it unfortunate if in the future I could play only console games (no, I'm not talking about racing games only). IF they could find some trouble-free and working copy protection scheme, I would be happy because it would once again make PC games sell better, and only the *** warez d00dz would run the buggy and ripped warez versions anymore. Hopefully DVD games will give some more breathing room for PC game developers once again. I understand it has some kind of copy protection scheme because the movie and music industry demanded it, but I don't know if it really works.

This was an even worse disaster. I remember lots of "demo" versions of products given away on magazine cover CDs - they were full programs but worked only as a demo until a key was entered. The keys were immediately hacked and published on usenet and thousands of people got free software with no trip to the shops, mail order, long download or whatever. Nightmare. It wouldn't make any difference. Most warez stuff has the videos and stuff removed anyway, and any CD checks are bypassed - I guess it takes a couple of hours to do. Even if that is impossible it's also a simple matter to make an ISO image of the whole CD and distribute that, so then anyone with a burner can remake the original CD. It's a very difficult issue. Perhaps NROS would be one answer, with registration details being cross-checked against serial numbers or CD check, but it is complicated and not very user-friendly. How to stop piracy while minimising hassle for the user and cost for development Cheers! John

This would be pure, un***erated rubbish then? I have a preview copy of GPL at home for a preview I am writing (kindly sent to me by Sierra/Papyrus). There are enough of these floating around to tile the floor of the Albert Hall but apparently are only available to trustworthy members of the press to prevent the now de rigeur leaks. If there are this many around the chances are someone will leak it eventually and even if they didn't it would be out on the net 2 to 3 days before it hit the shelves because of store workers getting hold of it to copy. Facist security measures, whilst sounding impressive, are pretty much unlikely to be in place in CD replication facilities. Of course you are aware that compulsory searching of staff would be illegal in most countries... M

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>According to a highly-accurate but must-remain-nameless source, GP >Legends is going for a simultaneous release in all areas of >international distribution. >At this time there are very, very few bugs left in the source code and >most of the bugs were just alert messages in the wrong language. >My source advises that the international sites (where the CDs will be >produced for that distribution zone) have been very secretive about >Legends: even the people working on the game are searched to make sure >they don't take beta CDs home(to stop the pirates). >It would appear that release could be expected, internationally, by as >early as the end of August/first weeks of September. >It is also most likely that the product could use a hardware >protection system on the CD i.e. put a physical mark on the CD then get >the program to look for that before starting the game. This would stop >people from copying the game because the new CD wouldn't have the >"watermark". >There you have the latest....if my source provides any updates I'll >advise.

I remember the "good old days" of manual protection. I had to keep all my manuals within easy reach so whenever I wanted to play I could. I personally remember getting my hex editor out and "fixing" one or two games to bypass the copy protection because I was fed up of doing it (f1gp a prime example). To be honest I haven't seen any copy protection that works yet. Someone can crack almost anything and there is no way to stop it. To be honest, the number of people who can be bothered downloading 100-200Mb of game is small and as games get bigger exponentially by the year, this will reduce further. Gone are the days when complete games were posted on Usenet. What *I* hope is that games developers won't use DVD as an excuse for bloatware like they did when CDROM started. No amount of music and pretty video can disguise a bad game and there are plenty of those around already without adding to the mix.... M

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>A manual protection like in the old times, for instance it would ask >for the third word on page 130 line 23 etc. Maybe that's the only way >after awhile, which would reduce (but not totally get rid of) PC >piracy. >I'm becoming more and more FOR copy protection schemes now that it >looks like PC piracy is once again raising its ugly head in force now >that there are affordable CD-R drives available. Piracy is one of the >reasons why software companies went to CD-ROMs anyway and I liked >that, because it meant no manual check ups anymore like in most >diskette games. >As far as I know lots of PC companies are now feeling the pressure of >piracy once again (very thin margins except for the very few games >that do sell well like Starcraft), while console game makers are doing >much better. I would find it unfortunate if in the future I could play >only console games (no, I'm not talking about racing games only). >IF they could find some trouble-free and working copy protection >scheme, I would be happy because it would once again make PC games >sell better, and only the *** warez d00dz would run the buggy and >ripped warez versions anymore. >Hopefully DVD games will give some more breathing room for PC game >developers once again. I understand it has some kind of copy >protection scheme because the movie and music industry demanded it, >but I don't know if it really works.