I got this from a friend who asked that I pass this along

I was asked to send this along:

Typical Sierra, releasing another game with a ton of bugs in it. Racer X Veteran Sim Racer Victory Lane- http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/

If this is fact then I'm curious as to why Lescault didn't say this when "interviewed"?? It wouldn't have made any difference to his situation, would it? Any further information? > I was asked to send this along: > > Subject: Re: pretty lame people -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

(Sigh!) "See how quickly they leap, Watson, eager to rip and tear at the slightest scent of ***, like the carrion scavengers that they be!" > Typical Sierra, releasing another game with a ton of bugs in it. > Racer X > Veteran Sim Racer > Victory Lane- > http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/1423/ -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>(Sigh!) >"See how quickly they leap, Watson, eager to rip and tear at the >slightest scent of ***, like the carrion scavengers that they be!" To be quite fair to the gentleman bruce, he is quite right as regards Sierra's recently releases been thrown out quite buggy, and is some cases, not evening matching the system options supported as on the pre-printed box! With Half life slipping so much and GPL as the other big Sierra earner for this part of the year, i imagine they are looking a bit worried :) Z.

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> I was asked to send this along: > > Subject: Re: pretty lame people > > Here's more about GPL, Mike Dunn. (and Tony, feel free to post this on > > their > > newsgroup.) My advice to you is to wait until at least the first patch for > > GPL, and more wisely the second, is out before buying the game and

I'll definitely be waiting to buy this one - waiting as long as it takes me to sprint from the software rack to the cash register :)

Tony Borroz wrote This is obviously a lame attempt to "dis" Papyrus.. It is full of false statement and the person is probably saying his own opinion from his imagination. Just tell him why we should wait for the first and second patch ? From some experience I can't tell I know that the final product is not even close to "need" a patch and thus all his saying should be considered as "bullshit". - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

........so tell me, exactly *which* items of *** software that you've bought in the past 12 months *haven't* been "buggy"? Why would "Sierra be looking a bit worried"?? > stuff. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> ........so tell me, exactly *which* items of *** software that you've > bought in the past 12 months *haven't* been "buggy"? Longbow 2, Age of Empires, Wing Commander Prophecy. Even if there were none, I wouldn't find that excuse particularly comforting. -- The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

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>.........so tell me, exactly *which* items of *** software that you've >bought in the past 12 months *haven't* been "buggy"? >Why would "Sierra be looking a bit worried"?? >> stuff.

Hmm, well you know i can recall a certain Seirra title which promised: Rendition Support, among other things, out of the box. Never delivered. They didn't even had the decency to sticker over the pre-printed boxes, or print some more for the initial build. Rush support was promised too, but it took a good 3 months for the patch to appear. Liekwise, the god-awful Pro Pilot. Sierra is a orgainziation that has been brought and sold 2 times in the last year, and it's two biggest products which have been relied on in early quarters of this year for revneue have slipped constantly. Starcraft is at the top (or near) in the charts, but only at a quarter when the worst sales of software in memorable history have been achieved. In short, don't confse the programing ability of the boys at Papyrus with their parent, who by all means is lookign a bit shaky, with new owners who are pushing for results. And thats why i have no diffculty believing the previosu gentlemans post. Z.

What excuse? I was asking a question, not excusing anything. However...."Longbow 2" had problems when first released (as did its predecessor). I have no experience of the other two so can neither confirm nor deny same. > Longbow 2, Age of Empires, Wing Commander Prophecy. Even if there were none, > I wouldn't find that excuse particularly comforting. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

This my dear friend is totally bullshit!!! Stop wasting bandwitdh on such crap! -- All the best, Edwin Solheim, Norway. Check out "The Paddock - a legendary site..." for some cool GPL stuff!! (http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock)

Modern games programmes run into tens or hundreds of lines of source code (usually in C or C++). The number of pathways through a programme of this size are as numerous as the stars in the sky. Testers identify individual test conditions and test them with sample values within what they consider to be reasonable ranges. They do not and cannot test all combinations of test conditions and they do not test all ranges. Nor can they test compatibity with all possible hardware setups or with all hardware and software drivers (which are also tested using the same methods). Therefore it is safe to conclude that no programme that does anything useful is bug free and that any claims to be such are false. Testers, product managers and sales people like to claim that a programme has been proven - developers (by which I probably mean designers and programmers) know better. Paul

> What excuse? I was asking a question, not excusing anything. You were suggesting that because "every" game is buggy, then it must be ok that Sierra has been releasing buggy games. i.e. excusing them for that behavior. That's how I read it. Maybe you meant something else? Longbow2 has never been patched. There have been 2 significant bugs that have been reported that affect a small portion of gamers: problems with CH joysticks and***pit texture flashing, which have been shown to be due to a DX5 bug and a hardware problem with Voodoo1 architecture, respectively. Not bugs in the game. Anyway, I'm not here to discuss LB2, I just thought that it wasn't a good idea to promote the concept that if most games are buggy, then it should be OK to release buggy games :-) -- The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

It is definitely not OK to release buggy software, but it is quickly becoming the norm. The marketing departments want to get the games out as quickly as possible because all they really seem to give a $hit about is the almighty dollar. They rationalize that it is OK to do this because they can just make a patch for people to download from the internet to take care of any issues that do not show up in initial testing. What these marketing geniuses fail to forget is that not all of their customers have internet access, and almost everyone outside of North America has to pay their phone bills by the minute. Before Internet usage became widespread, games were tested MUCH more thoroughly, and patches were few and far between. Now the game without a patch is the exception, rather than the norm. Some are just out of control as far as the patches go. Take a look a Quake 2... I have a zip disk with over 20 megs worth of patches for that, spread out over 5 or 6 releases. If I did not have access to a T-1 at work I would be pissed! Thanks for giving me the opportunity to vent! Chris "I died for you... Now why shouldn't you return the favor?" -Deathdream --Horrornews--Horrorchat--Reviews--General filth-- Mortado's Page of Filth http://www.nwlink.com/~mortado/

> Therefore it > is safe to conclude that no programme that does anything useful is bug free Paul.....wonderful stuff, indeed. So does this mean that any programme that is totally useless (say...hmmmm....well, let's say anything developed for accountants.) *IS* bug-free? -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

ALL computer software products are "buggy". Simple as that! :o) The majority of us accept this, being the pragmatists that we are. The minority whinge and moan about the *slightest* gremlin that pops up, totally ignoring the fact that they use the product religously for 8 hours every weekday. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Oh, ggive me a break, for Gods' sake!! Where on *earth* did you get that gem from???!!! Don't you understand that there are *HUGE* numbers of people who buy software...all sorts of software......who have never used a newsgroup? As I am involved in the retail of entertainment software I can tell you that if somebody brings a game in and ***es about it the chances that they caught any comments about it on a newsgroup are ***y miniscule, to say the least!! The enthusiasts...those that *do* use newsgroups to assess software by reading the comments...are more knowledgable and are actually more tolerant of problems than the average "Mom and Dad" customer. It's these latter people think that they are infallible and the rest of the world knows stuff-all about their computer system and how it should operate. > It is definitely not OK to release buggy software, but it is quickly > becoming the norm. stuff snipped -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> Longbow2 has never been patched. Too bad too... it could use a patch to fix the busted flight model. Trips

>It is definitely not OK to release buggy software, but it is quickly >becoming the norm. The marketing departments want to get the games out >as quickly as possible because all they really seem to give a $hit >about is the almighty dollar Chris, The number one thing _any_ company cares about is the almighty dollar (yen, pound, deutschmark or whatever). When they fail to do that the company goes under - they lose their expense account and sportscar and you get no software at all from that company. It is of course far from ideal to release buggy software, but don't pin the blame on the marketing department. They've been given a date by the coders (probably under extreme pressure, but never mind!) and have worked toward a release on that day - marketing, advertising, bribing, coercing, your typical marketing activities. When the product available is a pale shadow what was promised with bugs*** from every pocket you can imagine they won't be happy - there's only so many times you can build up the hype and have people believe you. I'd guess marketing guys don't know a whole lot about the detail of the product, not to the extent that fans of the game or the coders will - they are being asked to sell what they have been told is the product, and on the date they were given. The fact that the game arrives in only buggy form on the date promised can hardly be blamed upon marketing people, and the decision to release in such condition will come after long protracted argument between all factions. Quake2 was playable at first release and patches offered tweaks, additional hardware support or other improvements. Would you rather not have been able to play Quake2 at all until the final patch was in place and the company probably out of business. All this "it was better in the old days" is starry eyed nonsense (with the greatest respect). Manic Miner was unbugged and 16K - I doubt you'd find a Quak2 texture that was less than 16k, never mind the whole program. The mind-boggling plethora of equipment combinations alone makes testing a nightmare, not to mention the number of things which are possible in a modern game. People say "Consoles get it right because they can't release patches", fact is that consoles have much more chance of getting it right because they're coding for fixed and standard equipment. In my opinion it is an unnattainable Utopia to expect software to do everything perfectly on every system, and our support should go to those companies who make good on any mistakes in a responsible and rapid manner. Cheers! John

> > Longbow2 has never been patched. > Too bad too... it could use a patch to fix the busted flight model. Hmmm, I never saw that mentioned on csipgf, but I guess you know why it is busted... l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> So does this mean that any programme that is totally useless > (say...hmmmm....well, let's say anything developed for accountants.) > *IS* bug-free? Perhaps any programme that is totally useless is just one great (or small) bug (have you tried F1'97) :-). Actually, I've met accounts who were themselves almost indistinguishable from bugs. :-) (Of course, Bruce, you'll remember from you school book logic that, given that p implies q, you cannot deduce that not q implies not p. Given that a useful programme (p) contains bugs (q), it does not follow that not containing bugs (not q) implies a useless programme (not p). Fellow nerds rejoice!) And now the witty punchline which proves I'm not really a nerd.....no....can't think of it right now.... Regards Paul

Good post John. I agree with all but think sometimes Sierra is leading the pack. Although Papyrus does a much better job than the parent company with buggy software as you mention it. I think all Papyrus games were very playable when released and most patches fixed things that were minor. With some of Sierra's recent releases, it has not been the case. I could not believe what I got with Red Baron II. Some of their Front Page Sports Titles have had some pretty big play issues also on release. To think how complex the programs are now, it is a wonder that buggy programming is not worse as it is. -- Brian Tate BTate80 on TEN Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

Would be a good idea Pat. It is so striking now that you are too shocked to notice bugs in the product. With each new build, I'm simply amazed at what they are doing. Once it ships and the OHHH MY GODDD!! comments start coming in, this person will be rushing his ass to the software store himself. :> I can't stand road course or Gran Prix racing and I'm floored by the product as it is now. -- Brian Tate BTate80 on TEN Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

> > Longbow2 has never been patched. > Too bad too... it could use a patch to fix the busted flight model. Are you taking illegal pharmaceuticals again? ;-) I guess everyone is entitled to their opinion...but I'm with Ronny, I never saw mention of that and I never experienced anything which suggested a broken flight model. Sorry, this is getting way OT. -- The Scripps Research Institute http://www.scripps.edu/~jsmith

>In my opinion it is an unnattainable Utopia to expect software to do >everything perfectly on every system, and our support should go to >those companies who make good on any mistakes in a responsible and >rapid manner. Very good point, John. Perhaps I was just venting a bit too much! Chris "I died for you... Now why shouldn't you return the favor?" -Deathdream --Horrornews--Horrorchat--Reviews--General filth-- Mortado's Page of Filth http://www.nwlink.com/~mortado/

Oh. Sorry. Seemed pretty relevant to me, eddie. TB

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>Tony Borroz wrote... >>I was asked to send this along: >>> Subject: Re: pretty lame people >This my dear friend is totally bullshit!!! >Stop wasting bandwitdh on such crap! >-- >All the best, >Edwin Solheim, Norway. >Check out "The Paddock - a legendary site..." for some >cool GPL stuff!! (http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock)

No wonder it was a terrible quarter for computer game sales. I have so many good games now I don't know when I really need to buy another. I could careless when they release GPL or N3. There are other programs to fill the void until they make it out. I still like N2 and may find it better than N3 since I'm sure the system req. will be much higher than N2 and you never know when you mess with a really solid program there is a tendency in screwing it up with even an upgrade. We get Toca two in 3 weeks. I'm sure that will be a hoot and Moto Madness this week that should keep my new fix on racing satisfied for quite a while. 4 Racing games at once is plenty adding N2 and MTM2. GPL oh well whenever it makes it out... BH

>We get Toca two in 3 weeks. I'm sure that will be a hoot and Moto Madness >this week that should keep my new fix on racing satisfied for quite a while. >4 Racing games at once is plenty adding N2 and MTM2. GPL oh well whenever it >makes it out... Heh, I think you'll be amazed at just how boring MTM2 and Moto Madness will be once you start driving GPL. My biggest complaint to the Papyrus guys when I started with GPL was that it totally ruined F1RS and MTM2 for me. Simply that they felt, well, pretty ***compared to driving GPL. Cheers! John

I agree John. Even from a diehard Nascar guy like myself, I find it hard to top GPL. Once you get over the learning curve, you will be rewarded with the deepest driving experince ever. I knew nothing of 1967 era GP and never really enjoyed road course racing but GPL has turned me into a fan. I can't wait to see how everyone else feels about it once it is released. I almost enjoy racing GPL's AI more than racing humans on TEN/NROS Nascar 2. That is saying something my friends. :> -- Brian Tate BTate80 on TEN Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

Hey Brian, it's always interesting to here the views of guys who've seen the later versions after the demo. Have they kept that letterbox, non-full-screen view in the product and if they have, do you get used to it eventually. I've just started with the demo and I find the letterbox and the huge visible***pit really irritating. What's your view ? Andy

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> > Heh, I think you'll be amazed at just how boring MTM2 and Moto Madness > > will be once you start driving GPL. My biggest complaint to the > > Papyrus guys when I started with GPL was that it totally ruined F1RS > > and MTM2 for me. Simply that they felt, well, pretty ***compared to > > driving GPL. > I agree John. Even from a diehard Nascar guy like myself, I find it hard to top > GPL. Once you get over the learning curve, you will be rewarded with the deepest > driving experince ever. I knew nothing of 1967 era GP and never really enjoyed > road course racing but GPL has turned me into a fan. I can't wait to see how > everyone else feels about it once it is released. > I almost enjoy racing GPL's AI more than racing humans on TEN/NROS Nascar 2. > That is saying something my friends. :> > -- > Brian Tate > BTate80 on TEN > Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

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> >We get Toca two in 3 weeks. I'm sure that will be a hoot and Moto Madness > >this week that should keep my new fix on racing satisfied for quite a while. > >4 Racing games at once is plenty adding N2 and MTM2. GPL oh well whenever it > >makes it out... > Heh, I think you'll be amazed at just how boring MTM2 and Moto Madness > will be once you start driving GPL. My biggest complaint to the > Papyrus guys when I started with GPL was that it totally ruined F1RS > and MTM2 for me. Simply that they felt, well, pretty ***compared to > driving GPL.

Hmm, to mention F1RS and MTM2 in the same sentence is one thing, but while I enjoy driving the cars of 1967, the great physics in GPL can't replace the experience of driving a modern F1 car. And for that F1RS is just second to none (at least until F1RS2 shows up). l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Andy Jones wrote The Letterbox is and will stay for the final product. There is several reasons for that.. Think about a non-letterbox GPL. Take all of your screen and put it at the bottom. Now take the black part at the bottom and add it to the top. What is left ? Sky... only sky. Nothing but sky. Who cares, take that out and increase the framerate. The letterbox makes the game a little bit "historical", thus being a 1967 simulator. Finally, all of the previous Papyrus titles have this "letterbox", it's just not apparent. Nascar1 and 2 have the***pit. The actual screen in Nascar2 is very little, around 35% of the screensize. Icr1 and Icr2.. well (non-rendition) it's plain blue sky. Finally, letterbox makes our peripherical view better IMHO, since we do not focus on anything under or above us, somehow (and it will be usefull when you press ESC, you will see in the final version what Im talking about...). The huge***pit is how they saw in those days. It's a simulation, remember ? - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

You'll just have to wait and see...I too was skeptical about driving an antique on these tracks, and I hated the demo for its god-awful setup. However, after driving one of the later builds, I've since come to the same conclusion as John: GPL spoils you on everything else. =) Cheers! Marc > Hmm, to mention F1RS and MTM2 in the same sentence is one thing, but > while I enjoy driving the cars of 1967, the great physics in GPL can't > replace the experience of driving a modern F1 car. And for that F1RS is > just second to none (at least until F1RS2 shows up). -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

On Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:22:26 +0200, Ronald Stoehr >Hmm, to mention F1RS and MTM2 in the same sentence is one thing, but >while I enjoy driving the cars of 1967, the great physics in GPL can't >replace the experience of driving a modern F1 car. And for that F1RS is >just second to none (at least until F1RS2 shows up). Please, spare from all the "MTM2 is a game, F1RS is a sim" stuff :-) Seriously though, if modern day F1 is what you want to drive then of course GPL can't slake that thirst (although who knows what TSP can do with it). However, if you talk simply about "driving" then nothing else comes close. Believe me, I spent a long time with F1RS and enjoyed it a lot, just as I did with ICR1, GP1, ICR2 and GP2 before it, but the last time I loaded F1RS was the day I got GPL - honestly. F1RS and GP2 are good, but they are simply "racing by numbers" - here's the 100m board - brake. Into second, ease gas, etc. GPL transcends that to really give you the dynamic of the car, part of this is the game engine and part of it is just the era it represents. In GP2 or F1RS your margin for outbraking someone is minimal due to the short stopping distances. In GPL you have quite a lot of latitude and can go VERY deep into a corner, but you have to really fight to hold the car afterwards. So too with downshifting, the timing of which can either help or hinder your braking depending upon your skill, again just like real life. There's much more I could describe, but NDA forbids it for now and it's all just words anyway. All will be discussed ad nauseam when it is released I'm sure :-) I agree F1RS is probably best for modern day F1....probably. GP2 wins out in some departments and IMO it's far from cut and dried. For pure racing and for driving fun and realism GPL stomps everything into little pieces and then drives over them - twice. ;-) Cheers! John

I think you will really need to wait and drive the finish product before making a statement like that. Although I have never played F1RS, I know John probably has and from his perspective, you can't even compare the two. The joy of sliding a wingless car through the turns just can't be had in modern racing simulations. Like I said. I have not played F1RS so I'm not knocking it. -- Brian Tate BTate80 on TEN Assist LA for THOMAS ENTERPRISES HAWAII ACE LEAGUE http://dithots.org

And I usually find wing settings one of the easiest componets to understand the effects of on in a setup! (It looks like it will be a definate "suspension learning experinece" with GPL). These cars must of been some beasts to drive! You really earned the title World Champion back then. (They should have recieved some sort of medal for even racing the 'Ring alone!). I wonder how much practice time they were allowed before the race to learn it! (to go fast you'd have to have it memorized pretty good to know what was around the next corner, we'll have no problems with this I'am sure!) Speaking of the 'Ring, that track is going to be hard to get the right setup for the car so it runs well around the whole track. Wiht all of those turns (174?) I guess our setups will amount to a "happy balance". Later, John

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> On Thu, 06 Aug 1998 18:22:26 +0200, Ronald Stoehr > >Hmm, to mention F1RS and MTM2 in the same sentence is one thing, but > >while I enjoy driving the cars of 1967, the great physics in GPL can't > >replace the experience of driving a modern F1 car. And for that F1RS is > >just second to none (at least until F1RS2 shows up). > Please, spare from all the "MTM2 is a game, F1RS is a sim" stuff :-)

No sim/game thread with me, I promise! ;^) snipped comments I fully agree with This is actually, what I wanted to express. Reference sim for modern F1 is F1RS, reference sim for historic F1 is GPL. Of course, GPL has a much (MUCH) more sophisticated physics engine than any sim (for home use) ever had. I just got the impression, that one could not enjoy F1RS after racing GPL. This would be like loosing interest in CART2 because of the much better physics in F1RS. This will be the case for me, too. But after some heavy driving (or flying?) the GPL cars I know, I will miss darting through Hungaroring in my new Ferrari... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Contradiction in terms there, Ronnie old chap! If GPL has the "great physics" then the driving experience provided in F1RS can hardly be realistic, eh? Cheers mate!

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> but > while I enjoy driving the cars of 1967, the great physics in GPL can't > replace the experience of driving a modern F1 car. And for that F1RS > is > just second to none (at least until F1RS2 shows up). > l8er > ronny > -- > Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, > kiddo?" > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> Contradiction in terms there, Ronnie old chap! > If GPL has the "great physics" then the driving experience provided in > F1RS can hardly be realistic, eh? If one sim has better physics, suddenly the other one has unrealistic ones??? My English is worse than I thought, or why am I missunderstood here? I just said, that I would not stop enjoying F1RS just because GPL now has the best physics (which I definitly agree with, of course!). I didn't stop playing N2 just because F1RS came out with much better physics... I LOVE Nascar racing! Phew, did I make myself clear now? ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Oh, no, I didn't mean to imply that at all - I said it as a statement of fact ;-) (In my case at least, YMMV). It's a bit like driving a BMW M3 Evo on a racetrack and then driving your own BMW 318iS home afterwards - you can still have fun in the 318iS, but it's just not the same.... Oh I don't know - darting around Monaco in a Ferrari is rather fun in GPL - watch out for those lamposts...! Cheers! John

R: You almost enjoy it as much. When I state the other racing games I mean in a definate multiplayer enviroment. GPL will have it's day in the sun but I'm in no hurry. BH

I find this funny really. I think you need to concentrate more on driving! After driving the demo for a few days when it first came out, I was so into it that I was not even aware of the letterbox till I read someone's comments on it here at this NG! :)

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> Hey Brian, > it's always interesting to here the views of guys who've seen the later > versions after the demo. > Have they kept that letterbox, non-full-screen view in the product and > if they have, do you get used to it eventually. > I've just started with the demo and I find the letterbox and the huge > visible***pit really irritating. What's your view ?

I understand your reasoning here Ronny. When I first heard about it I was very underwhelmed and wished it had been ICR3 they were working on. But do not underestimate GPL. Not only are the cars a blast to drive but the tracks on offer will be awesome! Not too mention the potential for conversion to CART Racing 2 :)))))))) Come to think of it, I'm very underwhelmed with the current direction of F1 and the "Slow the cars down" policies. GPL might be very relevent to modern F1 soon because they might just decide to take the wings off modern F1 cars. Imagine that! :)

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> > Contradiction in terms there, Ronnie old chap! > > If GPL has the "great physics" then the driving experience provided in > > F1RS can hardly be realistic, eh? > If one sim has better physics, suddenly the other one has unrealistic > ones??? > My English is worse than I thought, or why am I missunderstood here? > I just said, that I would not stop enjoying F1RS just because GPL now > has the best physics (which I definitly agree with, of course!). > I didn't stop playing N2 just because F1RS came out with much better > physics... I LOVE Nascar racing! Phew, did I make myself clear now? ;^) > > Cheers mate! > l8er > ronny > -- > How to get rid of censorship in German game releases > <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> > |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, > ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. > |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, > '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

snip > >This will be the case for me, too. But after some heavy driving (or > >flying?) the GPL cars I know, I will miss darting through Hungaroring > >in my new Ferrari... ;^) > Oh I don't know - darting around Monaco in a Ferrari is rather fun in > GPL - watch out for those lamposts...! Oh, I hate you beta testers... ;^) Well, I envy you at least! l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> >If one sim has better physics, suddenly the other one has unrealistic > >ones??? > No, not suddenly.... ;-) Umm, yeah, it's a lot of work for Papy, for sure... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> Oh I don't know - darting around Monaco in a Ferrari is rather fun in > GPL - watch out for those lamposts...! ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well since no-one else have noticed or commeted on this yet.... Is this an indication that we will see Ferrari in GPL?? All the best, Edwin Solheim Check out The Paddock - a legendary site... (http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock) For some cool GPL stuff!

If you look at the newest screenshots that John put up at The APEX, of Mosport (I think?) there are Ferrari badges around the track... Dont know if this means anything or not... Brian Short

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> > Oh I don't know - darting around Monaco in a Ferrari is rather fun in > > GPL - watch out for those lamposts...! ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > Well since no-one else have noticed or commeted on this yet.... > Is this an indication that we will see Ferrari in GPL?? > All the best, > Edwin Solheim > Check out The Paddock - a legendary site... > (http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock) > For some cool GPL stuff!

I don't think anybody was terribly impressed by his name-dropping, Edwin. > Well since no-one else have noticed or commeted on this yet.... -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

What about that post by Jason Crossley at the APEX about the magazine article (PC Gamer) with an interview with Mike Lescault? The quote: "We've MADE SURE that all three will be in the game." (Nurburgring, Monaco, AND Ferrari). Here's a direct link to the message: http://gpl.gamestats.com/cgi-bin/ceilidh/forum/?P382ee0f3500A-3138-20... m If the article is real.. then it is CONFIRMED, is it not? doktorB

>> Oh I don't know - darting around Monaco in a Ferrari is rather fun in >> GPL - watch out for those lamposts...! ^^^^^^^^^^^^ >Well since no-one else have noticed or commeted on this yet.... >Is this an indication that we will see Ferrari in GPL?? I wish I could indicate, confirm or whatever, but sorry to say I'm dreaming about that as much as anyone. I'm sure it will be announced when/if it is inked. Until then, fingers crossed! Cheers! John

On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 21:34:10 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >I don't think anybody was terribly impressed by his name-dropping, >Edwin. I'm glad about that, since that wasn't the intention. Cheers! John

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> >> Oh I don't know - darting around Monaco in a Ferrari is rather fun in > >> GPL - watch out for those lamposts...! ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Well since no-one else have noticed or commeted on this yet.... > >Is this an indication that we will see Ferrari in GPL?? > I wish I could indicate, confirm or whatever, but sorry to say I'm > dreaming about that as much as anyone. I'm sure it will be announced > when/if it is inked. Until then, fingers crossed! > Cheers! > John

Does anyone know what tracks will be in the game? The old Nurburgring? That would be awesome! RC

Yes, it's in it, Robert. If you go to the site at the bottom of this note you'll find circuit information. > Does anyone know what tracks will be in the game? The old Nurburgring? -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

You know as much as I do on this have a read of Mike Lescault's interview in PC Gamer and draw your own conclusions... Cheers! John

On Sat, 08 Aug 1998 21:34:10 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >I don't think anybody was terribly impressed by his name-dropping, >Edwin. Meaning...? Cheers! John

That I don't think anybody was terribly impressed by his name-dropping, Edwin. > Meaning...? -- Regards, Bruce.

On Mon, 10 Aug 1998 21:05:15 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >That I don't think anybody was terribly impressed by his name-dropping, >Edwin. To the best of my knowledge the (apparently) offending post contained no name-dropping revelations nor comments intended to impress, hence my surprise. Sorry if it somehow struck you as otherwise and caused offence for whatever reason. Cheers! John

Tony, What the heck has my name got to do with this thread??? Iam a little lost here? Mike Dunn

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>Heh, I think you'll be amazed at just how boring MTM2 and Moto Madness >will be once you start driving GPL. My biggest complaint to the >Papyrus guys when I started with GPL was that it totally ruined F1RS >and MTM2 for me. Simply that they felt, well, pretty ***compared to >driving GPL. >Cheers! >John

Well said, John. My main gripe with GPL is that there isn't a Linux version available yet forcing me into rebooting to that ***system... I sent e-mail to Sierra suggesting and pointing out the viability of a Linux port, but so far I have not received a reply. Greetings & happy racing, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

On another note, a good preparation for the final release of GPL is reading Rainer Schlegelmilch's book "F1 Portraits of the Sixties", a big-format book full of black and white prints from that era, plus very enjoyable reading in three languages in a single volume. Regards, Uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

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>No wonder it was a terrible quarter for computer game sales. >I have so many good games now I don't know when I really need to buy >another. I could careless when they release GPL or N3. There are other >programs to fill the void until they make it out. I still like N2 and may >find it better than N3 since I'm sure the system req. will be much higher >than N2 and you never know when you mess with a really solid program there >is a tendency in screwing it up with even an upgrade. >We get Toca two in 3 weeks. I'm sure that will be a hoot ....

You sure about that? J

> Well said, John. My main gripe with GPL is that there isn't a > Linux version available yet forcing me into rebooting to that ^^^ You inserted an extra word by mistake. :-) You pointed out the viability of a Linux port (and not the lack thereof)? I wanted very much while I worked there for it to make ANY financial (or technical, or any other type of) sense to port to Linux. Couldn't even convince *myself* that it made sense as anything more than intellectual ***... The technical effort (and therefore costs, both development and support) required doesn't justify the likely market size. Besides, the MS OS's (particularly DOS) do a pretty good job of supporting computer games... And before you dismiss out of hand the support issue, I'm a pretty smart guy, reasonably well-versed in Linux setup esoterica and still don't have a sound card working on a Linux box. Of course, I haven't had great motivation to really debug the problem, since there aren't any good games... :-) If I had bought a $50 game and the sound didn't work, I'd probably be calling Sierra tech support, especially after Creative told me to "go pound sand, we don't support Linux". ---Jim, who doesn't even own a machine with a working MS OS on it right now (of course some folks with only MS OS's can make that claim too... :-) )

Very easy, if you own a soundblaster; Run sndconfig as root..... reasonably well-versed, hrrm.. Carl Ribbegaardh

Oh no, don't get Jim started... =) - Eric >reasonably well-versed, hrrm..

:-) ---Jim

Hi Jim, I take an answer from you (as an ex-Sierra/Papy employee if I recall correctly ;-) for as good as an official statement itself, so thanks for sharing your thoughts on this. >> Well said, John. My main gripe with GPL is that there isn't a >> Linux version available yet forcing me into rebooting to that > ^^^ >You inserted an extra word by mistake. :-) Not really, no. I think that native linux games are becoming more and more of a possibility seeing how use of Linux has spread during the last couple of years. Well, how do you explain that five or six years ago an installed base of only five to six million was looked at as a viable platform to publish for or port to? I don't see why the current no. of ms installations (which admittedly dwarfs everything else in sight ;-) should pose as an argument against porting to other platforms. Hell, people used to make money on Amiga/Atari whatever software, why should that stop all of a sudden, especially on a platform which is the *only one left* actually gaining market share next to MS in this day and age? I would not exactly go as far as calling getting an early foothold in a growing market as "intellectual ***", but that's freedom of speech for you. ;-) If DOS is so good at supporting games, how do you explain the conspicuous lack of new DOS games? ;-) Time moves on, and so do software publishers. If dos isn't dead, it already smells funny. Just look at the sheer amount of problems that creep up with DOS/windows installations, 640kb limit, XMS/EMS conflicts, hardware/driver issues and the like, software publishers blaming MS, MS blaming hw manufacturers for crappy drivers, a ridiculous merry go round IMHO, and you call Linux a tough platform to port to? Look at the great job id software has done with quake & quake II, look at the network and fps performance under Linux, and think again. There are loads of Linux users out there with a much higher ethical standard (a significant number are programmers themselves) when it comes to buying software instead of pirating it than you would ever find in the Windows world, I believe. Yep, I have no doubt of that. ;-) I think you're approaching the problem from the wrong angle here. HW manufacturers will soon start delivering Linux drivers with their products, but until then it is a bit unfair blaming lack of drivers on Linux itself. It's a bit like blaming Windows for lack of support or drivers for a certain product, don't you think? Unlikely scenario, I admit, but I just wanted to get this clear. If Creative f*cks their customers on other OS'es f*ck them and go looking for other options. What I really cannot understand is this: How come today everyone takes for granted the fact that after buying a $50 windows game he/she is usually required to spend hours on end downloading the latest DX, gfx/voodoo/glide sound whatever drivers to make the product work reliably? Look at products like F1RS which took up to version 1.09 to work ok for most people, look at Cart frustration racing, (ok Papy games have a reasonably good record apart from N2 by what I've heard ;-)? Why does everybody take for granted spending hours debugging hw configurations, re-calibrating wheels, pedals, sound in order to get a decent performance and usability? Whatever happened to the concept of "Quality"? I understand that in a market literally filled to the brim with software publishers it is vital for any company to reduce costs and Time to market in order to remain profitable, and this is why I tell them: "Relax. Take a breath and publish for Linux. Port and they will come (and even better, pay ;-)". Again, this won't hold on for very long. For the last several years Oracle has claimed ardently they won't port and have no interest in Linux, and look at what they announced last month. Go figure. BTW, Redhat 5.1 comes with a very nice thing called "sndconfig" in case you haven't tried that one yet. I installed a redhat box yesterday and had it on the net with KDE and a working quake (yep, registered and everything ;-) in less than 40 minutes. ;-) Yep, absolutely right. The good side of that is that more and more people are dissatisfied with what they have paid good money for to MS (some may claim they "got the os with their pc'ees", being ignorant of the fact that their reseller charged them for it without stating it on the invoice ;-) and thus get interested in alternatives. World domination isn't too far away. ;-) I offer you a bet: in two years from now, we will have seen a major sim publisher offering a racing sim for Linux. Ok, let's say Xmas 2001. ;-) Take it? Cheers for now & happy racing, Uwe [posted and mailed] -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<