Three spectators killed at Michigan Intl. Speedway during CART US 500

In case any of you have not heard, 3 spectators were killed when a tire from Adrian Fernandez's car went into the stands after his car hit the wall. Several others were injured, although I think none with life-threatening injuries. Let's include them and their families in our thoughts and prayers. Ken

I feel sorry for Fernandez. In his first CART win at Toronto in 96 Jeff Krosnoff was killed along with Gary Avrin (course worker) and now with him on the pole this happens.

I fell sorry for the members of this ng who are continually subject to posts which belong in the rec.autos.sport.* groups. Z.

well the title pretty much told what is was about, nobody said you had to read every post.

i feel sorry for the world having to put up with people like you, Z. everyone in this newsgroup has to be a racefan and the guy who started this thread was just being curteous by filling us in with news.

Oh please, for one you are assuming that people here are CART fans. Which may, or may not be the case, for one. And secondly the groups rec.autos.sport.info & rec.autos.sport.indy exist just for the purpose- wait for it... For news and Indycar/IRL/CART Discussion. So quite why anyone feels the need to have a mirror of that news here is well beyond me. Followups set to somewhere almost on topic. Z.

Oh, please indeed!..Actually he said "racefan"...If you didn't care for the post, then why not simply leave it alone? No one asked for your thoughtless and cynical drivel BTW.

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> Oh please, for one you are assuming that people here are CART fans. Which may, > or may not be the case, for one. > And secondly the groups rec.autos.sport.info & rec.autos.sport.indy exist just > for the purpose- wait for it... For news and Indycar/IRL/CART Discussion. > So quite why anyone feels the need to have a mirror of that news here is well > beyond me. > Followups set to somewhere almost on topic. > Z.

>Oh, please indeed!..Actually he said "racefan"...If you didn't >care for the post, then why not simply leave it alone? No one >asked for your thoughtless and cynical drivel BTW. Well, i'm sure many people here like a nice bit of ***, so would people object if i post some? :P It's a simple issue of what's on-topic or not.

You moron...news from a CART race and *** are hardly analogous in a newsgroup that deals with, among lots of other things, simulations of CART races. Get a life or get lost. Marc.

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>>Oh, please indeed!..Actually he said "racefan"...If you didn't >>care for the post, then why not simply leave it alone? No one >>asked for your thoughtless and cynical drivel BTW. >Well, i'm sure many people here like a nice bit of ***, so would people >object if i post some? :P >It's a simple issue of what's on-topic or not.

Idiotic arguement bud, discussions like real v. sim racing hardly qualify as "off topic" as *** is to r.a.s. Regards, Rick Carlson replace SPAMKILL with "greatlakes" to respond

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>>Well, i'm sure many people here like a nice bit of ***, so would people >>object if i post some? :P >>It's a simple issue of what's on-topic or not. >Idiotic arguement bud, discussions like real v. sim racing hardly >qualify as "off topic" as *** is to r.a.s. >Regards, >Rick Carlson

*ugh* Of course the merits and qualities of sim V's reality do have a place, the question is at hand is one of General Motorsport news posting in r.a.s. Which is expressly off-topic. Are you seriously suggesting each weekend we should have the results/news for: Formula One CART NASCAR IHRA WRC BTCC? The group is not rec.autos.sports.info, or the .indy .f1 .nascar .misc groups. These posts are completely off topic If you have difficulty comprehending that i suggestion you try an imagine the pathetic ammount of posting that would clog the group regarding these sims weekend after weekend. Simple as that really. Z.

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>You moron...news from a CART race and *** are hardly analogous in a >newsgroup that deals with, among lots of other things, simulations of CART >races. >Get a life or get lost. >Marc.

Unless there is a proposed CART TC for Carmageddon, i fail to see how this is even remotely connected to Simualtions of CART racing. Z.

What difference does it make to you if we post off subject stuff on here, does your life take a total dramatic change since someone passed real racing news along in a simulator news group? Quite worrying about these things, it's not important! BTW Marc, everytime I go to SIm Project, I only get a white background, and thats it. Nick Baltuch http://www.frii.com/~nickbal

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>What difference does it make to you if we post off subject stuff on here, does > your life take a total >dramatic change since someone passed real racing news along in a simulator news > group? Quite worrying >about these things, it's not important! >BTW Marc, everytime I go to SIm Project, I only get a white background, and > thats it. >Nick Baltuch >http://www.frii.com/~nickbal

Sorry, but i would disgaree. Along with rec.aviation.simulations and perhaps a couple of other groups, that i read regularly, these are the only groups that are not full of 100's of off topic postings which add nothign and detract from those groups. Not all of us do have a high bandwidth connection, and wasting time and precious money on phone bills to download 100's of off-topic posts per newsgroup is a major source of frustation and annoyance to not only myself, but many others. I have no desire to see rec.autos.simulators end up this way, and i'm sure few people here wish to either. Simple as that. Z.

Gee, I'm sorry your wasting your money on one off topic remark. One person posting one off topic remark isn't going to change RAS forever. Nick

Oh please! This was a major tragedy in motorsports and it only seems to bother you. There was absolutely no suggestion of posting results or news. If this were 1996 and Jeff Krosnoff had just been killed would you really have that much of a hissy fit about someone asking for prayers for his soul and his family?!? Even if it is off topic, it is only slightly off, and with and event of this magnitude I think we can make an exeption. After all, the last time a spectator was killed was Indy in 87.

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> Oh please! This was a major tragedy in motorsports and it only seems to bother > you. There was absolutely no suggestion of posting results or news. If this > were 1996 and Jeff Krosnoff had just been killed would you really have that > much of a hissy fit about someone asking for prayers for his soul and his > family?!? Even if it is off topic, it is only slightly off, and with and event > of this magnitude I think we can make an exeption. After all, the last time a > spectator was killed was Indy in 87.

Maybe it'll turn into a new "God bless princess Diane" thread... Trips

In the US, perhaps. Z.

What? Like folks "doin it" on the hood of a racecar?!?<g>

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> >Oh, please indeed!..Actually he said "racefan"...If you didn't > >care for the post, then why not simply leave it alone? No one > >asked for your thoughtless and cynical drivel BTW. > Well, i'm sure many people here like a nice bit of ***, so would people > object if i post some? :P > It's a simple issue of what's on-topic or not.

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>>Oh, please indeed!..Actually he said "racefan"...If you didn't >>care for the post, then why not simply leave it alone? No one >>asked for your thoughtless and cynical drivel BTW. >Well, i'm sure many people here like a nice bit of ***, so would people >object if i post some? :P >It's a simple issue of what's on-topic or not.

But that's posting Binary files, and should not be here (that's a whole different deal). ;-P Well I still consider you as a newbie here, and hopefully you don't end up in my "troll" file. You seem to be quite harsh to some people here, so please and this comes from most of the community here : "Chill off". I have lurked the .indy and .f1 newsgroup after the incident and your probably the first and only person who doesn't care about this incident, and actually showing no compassion at all. If you would have been here more longer than 3weeks, you would had seen that off-topic posting are quite accepted here since many years and are in big numbers. - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I include here the r.a.s. FAQ. This is the official and final word on off-topic on r.a.s. If you ever want to changed the FAQ to disable any off-topic use, we can discuss and call out a public voting about it. All done in a democratic way, be sure (I edited some stuff in it like links and non-topic related articles). If any of you want to change the FAQ about this, it will be done. Zonker even if you are alone you have the rights to fight about killing off-topic posts on r.a.s. But it will still be the democracy who will win ! Archive-name: autos/simulators/introduction Posting-Frequency: weekly Last-modified: 1998/05/03 Version: 1.07 URL: ftp://ftp.teleport.com/users/mcarver/AutoSim/rasfaq.txt Copyright: (c) 1997,1998 Michael E. Carver Welcome to rec.autos.simulators. This is an unmoderated newsgroup for discussions of realistic computer simulations of automotive vehicles, irrespective of the platforms on which the simulations are supported. This includes simulations which have a competitive component (racing simulations) and those which do not. Arcade racing simulators, which give an overhead perspective and which do not attempt to provide realism of handling of the vehicle, would not be appropriate in this newsgroup, whilst discussion of Microprose's Formula 1 Grand Prix and Papyrus's IndyCar Racing would be appropriate. (From the original charter of [Editor: While the original charter states that "Arcade racing simulators" should not be discussed in r.a.s., the general consesus is that they are welcome to participate in r.a.s.] This message will be posted every 7 days to rec.autos.simulators. It has some guideline on posting to this newsgroup as well as instructions on how to obtain the FAQ's (Frequently Asked Questions) related to topics discussed in this forum. 1. NETTIQUETTE A lot of people read these newsgroups - over 100,000 at the latest estimate (that's newsgroups not people). Some readers are restricted to tortuously slow connections. Some people pay for their connect time by the minute. Other people just like to read news when the Net is running slowly. If your article contains quoted text please take some time to pare it down to just the key points to which you are responding, or people will think you are a dweeb! Many people have the habit of skipping any article whose first page is largely quoted material. Format your article to fit in 80 columns, since that's the conventional size. If your lines are too long they'll wrap around ugly and people won't read what you write. If you aren't careful and considerate in formatting your posting, people are likely to ignore it completely. It's a crowded net out there. 1.1 The Content and Style of Your Post o It is perfectly legal to reproduce short extracts of a copyrighted work for critical purposes, but reproduction in whole is strictly and explicitly forbidden by international and US copyright law unless given permission by the author. o Would you want to read what you are writing ? Might it be better to email a comment, or even make no comment ? Spelling and grammar flames are particularly dull for the rest of the world, as are posts which follow fifty lines of quoted text with "I agree". o On the Net, most people only know you by the words that you write. People will pay more attention to your thoughts if your writing is clear and easy to read. o Trim down your quotes. Delete parts of the article that you are not responding to such as other people's signatures. Its best to have as little as possible from previous posts. However, do be careful when you "edit" a post. 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This will help the readers who use a threaded news reader; otherwise your new topic will be mixed in with an old one. o Please do not post large binary files like GIFs, JPEGs, MPEGs or WAVs to rec.autos.simulators. They will fill the Usenet disk partitions at some sites. Some people cannot select which articles they want before they have to download them. Post them to alt.binaries.simulators.autos newsgroup with a short post to rec.autos.simulators to notify anyone who is interested. o Please do not post "test" messages to rec.autos.simulators. You should *never* post a test article to a regular newsgroup, even to the "newusers" groups, even with a polite subject line like "test, please ignore." It's an expensive waste of Usenet resources, and if you do it, you're guaranteed to get lots of angry mail. Check for local test newsgroups first, if you have access to one, it's strongly recommended that you use it rather than a global test group. 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Put a sock in it, Zonk, for Christs' sake!! > even more stuff. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Oh deary me.......if you really want to go trolling for bites, why not try rec.alt.sports.fishing? > more stuff. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

.......yes....a charming woman she was. I say "God Bless Princess Diana"!! > Maybe it'll turn into a new "God bless princess Diane" thread... -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>I fell sorry for the members of this ng who are continually subject to posts >which belong in the rec.autos.sport.* groups. >Z. Sorry to ruin your day. Just figured some here would be interested in the news, since I'd guess 99% of the folks here also follow real-world racing, and have probably been to a race, and can appreciate this tragedy. They may not subscribe to RASI or have seen the news, but may have very well been interested in it, which is why I posted. And if your time and money listening to off-topic stuff are so important, WHY respond to so much of this thread? It's a contradiction. And never go to 3dfx.products.voodoo2, I'd guess a full 80% of the posts are mainly or fully off-topic. Yes, that annoys me. I try to follow nettiquette as much as possible, but see where "bending" the rules as I did here is sometimes appropriate. Ken

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>>>Oh, please indeed!..Actually he said "racefan"...If you didn't >>>care for the post, then why not simply leave it alone? No one >>>asked for your thoughtless and cynical drivel BTW. >>Well, i'm sure many people here like a nice bit of ***, so would people >>object if i post some? :P >>It's a simple issue of what's on-topic or not. >But that's posting Binary files, and should not be here (that's a whole >different deal). ;-P >Well I still consider you as a newbie here, and hopefully you don't end up >in my "troll" file. You seem to be quite harsh to some people here, so >please and this comes from most of the community here : >"Chill off". >I have lurked the .indy and .f1 newsgroup after the incident and your >probably the first and only person who doesn't care about this incident, and >actually showing no compassion at all. >If you would have been here more longer than 3weeks, you would had seen that >off-topic posting are quite accepted here since many years and are in big >numbers. >- Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) >- Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >- Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club >- Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) >- Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) >- "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

:) Considering i've been on rec.autos.simulators the last 3 odd years, i'd decline your role of "newbie" and i will say that yes you are correct, more and more off-topic posting are happening here, and yeah it really does***me off. Z.

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>I include here the r.a.s. FAQ. This is the official and final word on >off-topic on r.a.s. If you ever want to changed the FAQ to disable any >off-topic use, we can discuss and call out a public voting about it. >All done in a democratic way, be sure (I edited some stuff in it like links >and non-topic related articles). >If any of you want to change the FAQ about this, it will be done. Zonker >even if you are alone you have the rights to fight about killing off-topic >posts on r.a.s. But it will still be the democracy who will win !

I think you'll find you are actually quite mistaken there. The FAQ does not represent any form of guide as to what is and what is not on or off topic. I think you'll find that is the nwesgroup charter which was voted on democratically( as you point out) at the time of creation of this ng. Z.

>I have lurked the .indy and .f1 newsgroup after the incident and your >probably the first and only person who doesn't care about this incident, and >actually showing no compassion at all. I wouldn't say that is the case at all, actually. I do acknoledge it is unfortunate, but i accept every time i go to a motor race (which is by all means very frequently) i am putting myself is a position of risk. Accidents are very unlikely to happen which could cause injury or death to myself or others, but the chance that it can happen can't be ignored. I did actually seen a rather interesting post (granted with out the actual stats to back it up) regarding that one wonders how many people died on the way home in their car/or on the way there, but because their deaths were not in the public eye, will be ignored. Z.

Exactly my point Ken. I'd hate to see this ng go that way. Z.

Zonker, although in principle you may be right, I just find it strange and in very bad taste that you chose that topic for your "quest" to "save" this NG Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

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>Zonker, although in principle you may be right, I just find it strange >and in very bad taste that you chose that topic for your "quest" to >"save" this NG >Beers and cheers >(uncle) Goy >UncleGoy on TEN

Goy, I've been attending Motor Racing for a very long time, since a very young age, and in that time i've seen all manner of dangerous *** and fatal crashes. I've seen spectators badly injured, and i guess maybe i'm desencitized, but i really don't see this latest incident as anything new or different to jump up and down about. it's been happening a long time, it will continue to happen in Motorsport, because it's ***y dangerous to drivers, marshalls and spectators alike. If you think due to the nature of the topic, i'm going out my way to be offensive becuase of the nature, i'm not. It would seem perhaps i see as inevitable with reagrds to spectating at motor racing, and it's for sure that i don't want to see close spectating to end. But that issue aside, i do feel strongly about off topic posts. Motorsport has probably one of the strongest and better Usenet communties when it comes newsgroup's and the rec.autos.sports.* groups cover F1, Cart, IRL and NASCAR more than adequately- Some woudl venture much better than most news sources ever manage. I fail to see, and continue to fail how to see such posts even remotely belong here in r.a.s They are off-topic. I do personally know some people who have become motor sports fans based on Sims they have played. If you have never checked out the *real thing* or involved yourself in posts on the real flavours of the sims you play, head on over the the rec.auto.sport.* groups. Sure there's better, but there certainly a lot worse places to start as well. Maybe you might even find you enjoy watching the real thing more fun than playing the sim of it Z.

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> >I have lurked the .indy and .f1 newsgroup after the incident and your > >probably the first and only person who doesn't care about this incident, and > >actually showing no compassion at all. > I wouldn't say that is the case at all, actually. I do acknoledge it is > unfortunate, but i accept every time i go to a motor race (which is by all > means very frequently) i am putting myself is a position of risk. Accidents > are very unlikely to happen which could cause injury or death to myself or > others, but the chance that it can happen can't be ignored. > I did actually seen a rather interesting post (granted with out the actual > stats to back it up) regarding that one wonders how many people died on the > way home in their car/or on the way there, but because their deaths were not > in the public eye, will be ignored.

That's not a point. Those people would have been killed if they would have been to a soccer match or something like that, too. Besides, It should be the first concern in motorsports to avoid spectators being killed or getting injured. Obviously, the safety isn't a important in those idiot American ovalraces. The only thing that counts is spectacle. It is ridiculous to let guys go through corners at 350 km/h with a concrete wall 1 meter next to them and spectators 50 cm behind that wall. C.A.R.T. can learn much about safety from Formula one Han ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" Cruyff over van Gaal This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get off your soapbox, Zonk!! > things. Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

What a silly, uninformed statement you have made! > Obviously, the safety isn't a important in > those idiot American ovalraces. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Zonker wrote But can't you see that Off-Topic posting are accepted since _YEARS_ here on r.a.s. and I don't see why it should not be tolerated. I can start a democratic voting process if you want and make the changes to the charter/FAQ if you want. Heck off-topic posting make this newsgroup more enjoyable. Don't you see there isn't any of those big fights and flamewars since around 2months ? (well that's partially my fault hehe). - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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> Goy, > I've been attending Motor Racing for a very long time, since a very young age, > and in that time i've seen all manner of dangerous *** and fatal crashes. > I've seen spectators badly injured, and i guess maybe i'm desencitized, but i > really don't see this latest incident as anything new or different to jump up > and down about. it's been happening a long time, it will continue to happen in > Motorsport, because it's ***y dangerous to drivers, marshalls and spectators > alike.

What are you smoking Zonker, motorsport events are NOT supposed to be dangerous for spectators, marshalls maybe, but I`d think not, drivers, well ok there will always be an element of risk and THEY know the risk, Joe Public does most certainly NOT, and should not have to either Off-topic maybe, but it`s not totally out of the question that due to the large number of ppl attending the event and the number off ppl who read these posts that some of those would be the same ppl, I thought the original post was a nice gesture, a bit cliche for my taste perhaps, but some of those ppl might have appreciated that gesture, and then for you to jump all over Ken in your "quest" was in very bad taste, you could easily have found 4-5 other threads to complain about here in this group, the DOS 5.0 thread from Bruce K. springs to mind I used to be directly involved as a mechanic for a couple of friends on a national level some years ago, as well as a spectator for the past twenty years or so, so I`m not a stranger to how it works on both sides of the fence, which is why I enjoy these sims so much I guess All I`m asking is that you give the WAY you choose to get rid of the off-topic postings here some thought Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

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>> Goy, >> I've been attending Motor Racing for a very long time, since a very young > age, >> and in that time i've seen all manner of dangerous *** and fatal crashes. >> I've seen spectators badly injured, and i guess maybe i'm desencitized, but i >> really don't see this latest incident as anything new or different to jump up >> and down about. it's been happening a long time, it will continue to happen > in >> Motorsport, because it's ***y dangerous to drivers, marshalls and > spectators >> alike. >What are you smoking Zonker, motorsport events are NOT supposed to be >dangerous for spectators, marshalls maybe, but I`d think not, drivers, >well ok there will always be an element of risk and THEY know the risk, >Joe Public does most certainly NOT, and should not have to either

Goy, The only way i can think of to make Motorsport *completely* safe for spectators is to lock them up in an underground room some miles from the track, and put them in front of a TV. Risks should be minimised and they are- but you can not plan for the freak accident, becuase they are just that- freak by nature. Marshall are probably the most at risk of all the three, i would venture. Those guys are the unsung hero's of Motorsport. If you are telling me that Joe Public are not aware of the risk, then i guess they aren't reading the signs or the back of their ticket. Which on my ticket for the Btcc round at Brands says "Warning! Motorsport can be Dangerous!" "Despite the organisers taking all reasonable precautions unavoidable accidents can happen, in respect of these you attend events at your own risk." ( [link lost in import] Z. Z.

>What a silly, uninformed statement you have made! I'm in the US, and I think his point regarding safety is quite accurate. Very few of the tracks used for IndyCar have runoffs like the F1 tracks. In my opinion, they are OK for NASCAR (not great - a runoff is always better than hitting a wall), but a potential disaster for open-wheeled cars. Open wheeled cars are much more unpredictable when they touch a wall than a fendered car. This is doubly true for motorcycle racing. Any of the GP tracks outside the US are much better than most any US track. I can't imagine anything scarier than late braking on a bike while pointing at Armco. That wheel wouldn't have ended up in the crowd if there was a gravel trap instead of a wall. I think Indianapolis is horrible. Seems like every other year someone gets killed there in practice. -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

Z, if you are against such off topic posts then why are you contributing so much to this thread? And to everyone else who thinks American motorsports are so dangerous, then why is this only the first death at a major US race since 1987's Indy 500? Go and do your research again fellas, because on this report you failed, miserably.

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> Goy, > The only way i can think of to make Motorsport *completely* safe for > spectators is to lock them up in an underground room some miles from the > track, and put them in front of a TV. > Risks should be minimised and they are- but you can not plan for the freak > accident, becuase they are just that- freak by nature.

Freek accident, yes, and I`d agree that the one at MIS was just that, I watched it on the tube and I still can`t figure out how that wheel managed to clear a 15 ft wall/fence combo Yep, I agree, don`t know where my thought was at this one Then you guys have different rules in the UK than we have here in Norway, no such thing printed on any of my tickets that I`ve seen, and if anything like this happened here, that track would be shut down pretty quick, not that it would matter much for those involved I guess Rallying was actually outlawed here due to a couple of accidents or close calls, for some 10 years, started again in the mid 80`s if memory serves me right Of course there is _some_ element of risk, but then again what doesn`t have ? But this is even further from the original topic than ever before, right ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

Crap! "Those guys" become marshalls because they love motor racing, may not be able to compete (for whatever reason) and undertake an officials' role in order to be close to the action. I know because I did it for several seasons many, many years ago! I didn't do it because of its heroic nature and nor did I give a toss about any inherent dangers. It was exciting, got me close to the action and I could mingle with drivers and their cars. Simple as that, friend Zonk. > Marshall are probably the most at risk of all the three, i would venture. > Those guys are the unsung hero's of Motorsport. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

-snip- Really? How do you come to that conclusion? Well perhaps Joe Public should...anyone who attends any event of any sort where there is danger should recognize and accept that fact...think about airshows, monster truck rallies, hydroboat races etc. While I believe that some steps must be taken to ensure the safety of all concerned, it must also be understood that there is risk inherent in any of these types of activities...it is one of the reasons people are drawn to these events. If you are unwilling to accept the risk, do not attend. Then I am surprised that you seem to misunderstand the inherent risks involved here. Mike

-snip- Oval racing Tim, oval racing...big difference between that and dedicated road courses. I wouldn't worry too much. The whinning will eventually remove most risk from most tracks. Mike

-snip- Like any form of motorsport. Perhaps in your opinion...I appreciate all forms of motorsports for what they are, risks and all. It is a shame that some people are unable to do the same. If you don't like it, don't support it. You sound like an arrogant European (that is a shame...that honour usually falls on American shoulders)...if you were to follow the CART series at all, you would see how wrong you are. Mike

>The only thing that counts is spectacle. It is ridiculous to let guys go >through corners at 350 km/h with a concrete wall 1 meter next to them and >spectators 50 cm behind that wall. C.A.R.T. can learn much about safety >from Formula one Oh, man, oh, man, where to begin on THIS one... Well, let's start with the obvious. First off, it's not CART's decision as to how the crowd is protected at MIS. It's entirely Roger Penske's call--he owns the track, not CART. Only Bernie Ecclestone seems to be able to convince track owners that he should decide how "safe" their track is. Next up, the spectators aren't exactly 50cm from the wall. I've sat in the front row immediately adjacent to where Fernandez hit (which downright terrified me when I saw the ttape on the news, FWIW), and there's approximately twenty feet (or six meters, if you can't handle English units) of "no-man's land" dead space which security personnel keep clear of fans, just in case. (And, by the way, if they're running a meter out from the wall down the straight, they're running a rather conservative line...) As for the last sentence... I'm not even touching this one. RM

> Zonker, although in principle you may be right, I just find it strange > and in very bad taste that you chose that topic for your "quest" to > "save" this NG Yes, and not to mention he's just simply wrong and looking for an argument! It's like me saying I want all the N2, NFS2, TOCA, etc people to***off. I don't know who this guy thinks he is or what his big problem is.

> Besides, > It should be the first concern in motorsports to avoid spectators being > killed or getting injured. Obviously, the safety isn't a important in > those idiot American ovalraces. This sounds odd to me. Motorsport and safety? If you want safety, stay away from motorsport. It's dangerous ya know! Yeah. just ask Ayrton's family, etc, etc. What a load of anti American ***all this was! The best races I've seen this year have been CHAMP cars on ovals! To me, a little death and injury, even in the stands, just adds colour and greatness to the sport! In fact, it has always been my dream to have a pop up anti tank wall at Indianapolis right under those famous strip of bricks and pop her up just after the green flys on lap 1! Now that would be a spectacle for ya!

Friggin' hell. Will you look at all this off topic nonsense on this decaying NG!

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> But can't you see that Off-Topic posting are accepted since _YEARS_ here on > r.a.s. and I don't see why it should not be tolerated. I can start a > democratic voting process if you want and make the changes to the > charter/FAQ if you want. > Heck off-topic posting make this newsgroup more enjoyable. Don't you see > there isn't any of those big fights and flamewars since around 2months ? > (well that's partially my fault hehe).

I can't understand why some of you are agreeing that this thread is off topic. It's about motorsport, and this ng is dedicated to the simulation of motorsport. I've never seen such nitpicking bullshit anywhere.

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>> Zonker, although in principle you may be right, I just find it strange >> and in very bad taste that you chose that topic for your "quest" to >> "save" this NG > Yes, and not to mention he's just simply wrong and looking for an argument! > It's like >me saying I want all the N2, NFS2, TOCA, etc people to***off. I don't know > who this guy >thinks he is or what his big problem is.

Er? Sorry, but i think you've completely missed the point. I suggest you go back and read the thread. Z.

And we Formula One fans should not be so smug. what happened at Imola 1994? No, I am not referring to Senna, because that topic has been done to death. I'm referring to the start line incndent between Lehto and Lamy that sprayed debris up into the stands. If any of those pieces flew differently, then there would be dead spectators instead of injured ones. And near the end of the race Alboreto's wheel took a trip into the stands. If you wnat to avoid the risk, you have to stay at home in front of the TV, or buy a really bad ticket. I used to go to the Detroit GP during the turbo era. I bought general admission tickets and tried to get as close to the track as I could. Yes, there was a risk, and I fully understood it. But it didn't stop me from standing where I did. And it didn't make me want an extra fence installed. Stephen

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> > Besides, > > It should be the first concern in motorsports to avoid spectators being > > killed or getting injured. Obviously, the safety isn't a important in > > those idiot American ovalraces. > This sounds odd to me. Motorsport and safety? If you want safety, stay away from motorsport. > It's dangerous ya know!

We should accept risk to some level, but I think that Oval-racing lies beyond that limit, just like the overpowerd 1967 F1 cars on the over-fast circuits that wer used then little death and injury, I think it is no use to react on this.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" Cruyff over van Gaal This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> -snip- > >What are you smoking Zonker, motorsport events are NOT supposed to be > >dangerous for spectators... > Really? How do you come to that conclusion? Yeah right, bet a lot of people would take their kids to motorsport events if they thought it would actually be dangerous for them, if they got hurt, couldn`t the parents then be tried in court for puttimg their kids in danger or something ? Yes I know people have gotten hurt at soccer games when the crowd goes nuts and stuff like that, but that is one of those freek things we`ve been discussing, that is beyond anyones control and not really a part of what`s going on the event itself. As a spectator I pretty much expect to be kept safe from what`s going on at the track (not suggesting that MIS was at fault here, I really think that was one of those thing that are very hard for organisers to prevent, and as long as they learn from it so they try to prevent it happening again...), as long as I follow the guidelines of behaviour as outlined by the organiser So you are actually saying that one of the reasons people go to motorsports events is the thrill of living dangerously as a spectator ??? (And lets not bring up rallying in Portugal or anything, THAT`s insane) Well, that says a lot about what kind of person you are if you think like that and bring your kids along to one of these things. A calculated risk is when I take my roadcar to a trackday and put my helmet on, NOT when I buy a ticket to see other people do something similar, then the risk should be VERY close to nil Those guys I used to help out would not have raced if they thought the organisers hadn`t done everything they knew to keep the spectators safe from their own mistakes, how are they supposed to do their job if they KNOW that some parts of the track is not safe and a mistake at that part would easily kill or injure spectators ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy

Then may I suggest a visit to rec.autos.sport.f1? Post a note about....ohhhh.....a CART-related matter, or NASCAR, and see what sort of reaction you receive from the nitpickers!! > I've never > seen such nitpicking bullshit anywhere. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

There is more likelihood of being killed in an aircraft accident than there is of being killed or even injured as a spectator at a motor racing event. > A -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Oh Hans..... you really are a giggle!! :o) Not a realist, nor even a student of human behaviour, but certainly a comedian! > just like the overpowerd 1967 F1 cars on the over-fast > circuits that wer used then -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>>That wheel wouldn't have ended up in the crowd if there was a gravel >>trap instead of a wall. >Oval racing Tim, oval racing...big difference between that and >dedicated road courses. I realize there is the banking to contend with, and there are no absolutes at that speed, but I can't think of a circumstance where it's better to hit a concrete wall than a gravel trap. We'll use your road course example. Where was Krosnoff <sp> killed? That was a temporary road course with concrete barriers if I remember correctly? I love all kind of racing, but I still don't like the design of a lot of US tracks. -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

I think this thread is off topic. It would be on topic if the subject was how this kind of accident is treated by the sims. In most of the sims today, as far as I know, people are never injured. Only cars and some objects get damaged. On the other end of the spectrum is a game like Carmageddon, but that is not a sim. Seems to me that the sims only simulate the sunny side of racing (fun, e***ment etc.) and leave out the dark side. So they are sort of romancing racing and not so close to reality as they (cl)aim to be. Bart Westra

>I love all kind of racing, but I still don't like the design of a lot >of US tracks. >-- > http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 Can't belive you wouldn't love Burke Lakefront in Cleveland. ;-) Jake Myers Snake Racing TSP MIRacing "If we all thought the same, nobody would think"

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> Oh Hans..... you really are a giggle!! :o) > Not a realist, nor even a student of human behaviour, but certainly a > comedian! > > just like the overpowerd 1967 F1 cars on the over-fast > > circuits that wer used then

You've put my text out of the context. Quoting the way you do, you can make anyone say anything Besides, I don't need a 's' behing my name!!!!! It's Han, not Hans!!! Han Monsees ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" Cruyff over van Gaal This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Being a spectator at a race is NOT dangerous. Yes, the event that happened in Michigan was a horrible tragedy and my heart goes out to the families and everyone else involved but lets be realistic here. It was a fluke. These were the first spectator fatalities in major U.S. motor racing in eleven years. Get the attendance figures for all CART and NASCAR races during the past eleven years and add em up. what do you get, 10 million?, 20 million? Now get your calculator and divide the number 3 by 10 million and tell me the percentage. I'll take those odds any day. This is not and never will be a perfect world. We cannot foresee and therefore prevent every bad that is ever going to happen.

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> >>That wheel wouldn't have ended up in the crowd if there was a gravel > >>trap instead of a wall. > >Oval racing Tim, oval racing...big difference between that and > >dedicated road courses. > I realize there is the banking to contend with, and there are no > absolutes at that speed, but I can't think of a circumstance where > it's better to hit a concrete wall than a gravel trap. > We'll use your road course example. Where was Krosnoff <sp> killed? > That was a temporary road course with concrete barriers if I remember > correctly? > I love all kind of racing, but I still don't like the design of a lot > of US tracks. > -- > http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 > (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

So what do you have to say about Monaco? Imola, Australia, etc, etc? Is there really nothing to hit at F1 tracks? Surely you jest? However, I think having all spectators to the inside of the track and no walls to the outside could be the way of the future in all forms of Motorsport. That's if any of the people in charge actually wake up to the fact thar we want the cars to go faster, not stay the same or get slower. CART and F1 are going to start getting old real quick if they don't wake up to this fact FAST! If the e***memnt of how much faster the cars will be from year to year disappears, so too will a significant number of fans disappear with it. I'll get REAL tired of watching basically the same cars going around the same tracks year after year.

Probably more people got killed on the roads in car accidents going to attend these races than fatalities by tyres gone haywire.... uwe -- Spam-proof e-mail: Uwe Schuerkamp <hoover at telemedia . de> http://www.telemedia.de/~hoover ////// Phone: +49-5241-80-10-66 Best of Scottish Folk: http://home.pages.de/~nsg >>> Blue Ribbon Campaign: Support Free Speech on the Internet <<<

> So what do you have to say about Monaco? Imola, Australia, etc, etc? Is there really >nothing to hit at F1 tracks? Surely you jest? However, I think having all spectators to This is an excellent point, Byron. F1 tracks aren't perfect, but as a whole, I think they're way better than what we have in the US. Monaco, like Indianapolis, is a tradition, so I think it goes on. I will admit, I love to watch the Monaco GP. Much of Monaco is low speed compared to the ovals, but you are exactly right about it having no runoffs. I wonder how the FIM and drivers actually feel about Monaco? If a new round was proposed in a similar setting, do you think the FIM and drivers would approve it? I don't. -- http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 (dirt bikes, rat bikes, rental car abuse...)

Sorry..."Han". I didn't quote you out of context. You consider that the cars used in 1967 were overpowered and that the design of the circuits meant that the speeds were too high? Is that correct? If that is what you meant then I say that the drivers would have much preferred to race *their* cars on *those* tracks rather than race todays cars on todays tracks. This fact is born out by several drivers of "The School of 1967" stating exactly that. These drivers include the likes of Sir Jack Brabham, John Surtees, Dan Gurney, Phil Hill and Chris Amon, not to mention a more recent Champion, Alan Jones. Add to that the comments of current drivers, including Jacques Villeneuve and Gerhard Berger, who have blasted the attitude today of designing circuits that are more a collection of chicanes and squiggles rather than using flowing, natural contours. It is easy to be wise in hindsight: back in 1967 that was the situation....we didn't have a crystal ball that enabled us to look ahead to 1998 and see how boring and totally commercialised the sport would become. If we *had* been able to see into the future then you can bet that we wouldn't have let the sport fall into the grasp of a few megalomaniacs, that's for sure!! :o)

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> You've put my text out of the context. Quoting the way you do, you can > make anyone say anything > Besides, I don't need a 's' behing my name!!!!! > It's Han, not Hans!!! > Han Monsees

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

This has actually been discussed in the motoring press. If Monte Carlo were applying for a round of the F1 season today it is extremely unlikely that the track would be rejected simply on the grounds of safety, or lack of it. The circuit is not "unsafe", due to its predominently low-speeds (all things being relative, of course!!) and safety enhancements have been made over the past several years. It is more likely that the circuit would be rejected on the grounds of "boredom"! As far as what the drivers think, you need go no further than the likes of Martin Brundle, Alan Jones, Jacques Villeneuve, etc, to understand that they dislike racing there...because the "racing" is almost non-existent and finishing positions are usually based on where one qualified and who drops out in the race. Most of them, however, understand the prestige of winning there and most want to win there, at least once in their careers. > I wonder how the FIM and drivers actually feel about Monaco? > If a new round was proposed in a similar setting, do you think the FIM > and drivers would approve it? I don't. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> Sorry..."Han". > I didn't quote you out of context. > You consider that the cars used in 1967 were overpowered and that the > design of the circuits meant that the speeds were too high? Is that > correct? That's correct, but I meant that the cars and tracks were too fast if safety is concerned. Racing in those cars at those tracks is fantastic to watch, a challenge to drive but it is also suicide. Then they have to run the risk of leaving the circuit in a coffin. Just like Lorenzo Bandini, Jimmy Clark, Bob Anderson, Carel Godin de Beaufort, Jochen Rindt, Graf Wolfgang von Trips, Francois Cevert, John Tayor and all those others. They are the lucky ones, that survived, partly because of skill, partly because of luck. They will surely look back to time that gave them fantastic sport, but I am sure that they will also look back in grief when they think of the good friends they lost. Jackie Stewart once considered how many man with whom he raced F2 were still alive and found out that about half of them had been killed. They should consider that chicanes aren't there for nothing. Besides, Berger was the first man that talked about more safety after the Imola-tragedy. The boredom is surely not caused by the chicanes and improved safety. I remember last year's races at Imola and Hockenheim as being the most boring, but the races on the so-called Mickey-Mouse circuits offered a lot of e***ment (Hungary, Monaco, A1-ring last week) You're right that the commercialism is killing the sportbut that has nothing to do with improved safety Greetings, Han Monsees

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> > You've put my text out of the context. Quoting the way you do, you can > > make anyone say anything > > Besides, I don't need a 's' behing my name!!!!! > > It's Han, not Hans!!! > > Han Monsees > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ---------- > The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

---------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Hij is iets arroganter dan Wim Jansen, om het aardig te zeggen" Cruyff over van Gaal This message is transmitted on 100% recycled electrons ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

They should have scheduled the IRL that weekend......the tire would have had nothing to hit :-)

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>>I love all kind of racing, but I still don't like the design of a lot >>of US tracks. >>-- >> http://www.users.fast.net/~fusion1 >Can't belive you wouldn't love Burke Lakefront in Cleveland. ;-) >Jake Myers >Snake Racing >TSP >MIRacing >"If we all thought the same, nobody would think"

-snip- Dedicated road courses Tim, dedicated. Mike

>Yeah right, bet a lot of people would take their kids to motorsport >events if they thought it would actually be dangerous for them... You missed something there...it is dangerous...if a race fan (parent or otherwise) does not understand this, well that is his/her undoing, not the motorsport community's. While it is none of your business how I would choose to raise my child, yes, if my child wanted to attend these events I would let him/her. If you can not accept the risks involved for your child then don't allow them to attend. Perhaps you should not let them participate in any aggressive spiorts either...they may get hurt. I regularly take my nephew sailing...there are risks involved in this, in fact the odds are much higher that he will die while sailing than he will die while attending a car race. I suppose you feel that I am an evil uncle for exposing him to this horrible risk? And so it is...but it is not zero. Really, they know that? I would bet that they do not know that. No one does until a fatality happens...even then, they are usually freak accidents, not caused by an unsafe track. You need to understand the statistics involved here...figure out how many spectators have died during all forms of motorsports events over the last (pick a number) years compared to the number of spectators who have attended; however, I'm sure you will get your wish...these types of things always make the human species overreact in a pathetic attempt to protect us from ourselves. I'm sure before too long, they will decrease the speeds to perhaps 20 kph or so. Then we can all feel really safe, the drivers too...and still, somewhere, someday, something will happen and there will be tragedy. Mike

snip Mike, I`m not going to argue anymore with you on this because basically we agree, we just look at it from slightly different angles. I`m not saying we need to drastically improve spectator safety, in my opinion it`s very good and as long as we learn something from the Michigan tradegy and try to prevent it from happening again, I`m content with that. I just don`t agree that being spectator at a motorsportevent is basically dangerous and that you should expect to be injured if you attend Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

I have a comment to make here since this thread has momentarily been awakened. I videoed this race and went back to watch it on replay later - not to see if I could see the spectators get hit, but to try to work out how the wheel got over the fence. This puzzled me because I had already noticed that the fence angled in and also had a lip at the top. The fact that the wheel was the front outside that broke off upon impact had me stumped as to how it could get over. This is how it happens ; Front right wheel makes impact and tears off car. At this point the wheel ricochets off the wall upwards and slightly inwards. Had this been on a straight the wheel would have simply landed on the track or infield. But because the curvature of the track was greater than the inward effect of the ricochet, this meant the wheel passes over the fence some 100 yards or so down the track from the initial impact at around 200mph no doubt. This is what enables the wheel to clear the angle and lip of the fence. After viewing the replay and thinking about it it becomes quite obvious I suppose. So at the end of the day you need either an extremely high fence or a lip that practically acts as a roof over the whole track. Either way, once again, you now have a structural/monetary nightmare and probable spectator view issues both for TV coverage and particularly at the track. At the end of the day the m***to the story is "Go to the races, take your chances!"

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> snip > Mike, I`m not going to argue anymore with you on this because basically > we agree, we just look at it from slightly different angles. > I`m not saying we need to drastically improve spectator safety, in my > opinion it`s very good and as long as we learn something from the > Michigan tradegy and try to prevent it from happening again, I`m content > with that. > I just don`t agree that being spectator at a motorsportevent is > basically dangerous and that you should expect to be injured if you > attend > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > UncleGoy on TEN

There is one other VERY important lesson here that IMHO everyone else has missed. The people that were killed never even knew it was coming. When you go to the races (or even cross a busy street) you need to be aware of the situation at all times. If your paying attention to the camera, or the hot dogs and beer, etc. you are in instant candidate for death! If you'll notice, the course marshalls usually work in pairs. That way they can watch each others back. In a perfect world, everyone should do this too, but it is especially important at events where 100 pounds of tire and suspension can reach you (or a neighbor) in less than a second. No, this won't solve everything in every accident. Nothing can. But, I believe that your chances of survival increase exponentialy with your situational awareness. -TJ- "Wear your heart on your sleave, but never sell your soul."

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> I have a comment to make here since this thread has momentarily been awakened. I > videoed this race and went back to watch it on replay later - not to see if I could see > the spectators get hit, but to try to work out how the wheel got over the fence. This > puzzled me because I had already noticed that the fence angled in and also had a lip at > the top. The fact that the wheel was the front outside that broke off upon impact had me > stumped as to how it could get over. > This is how it happens ; > Front right wheel makes impact and tears off car. At this point the wheel ricochets off > the wall upwards and slightly inwards. Had this been on a straight the wheel would have > simply landed on the track or infield. But because the curvature of the track was greater > than the inward effect of the ricochet, this meant the wheel passes over the fence some > 100 yards or so down the track from the initial impact at around 200mph no doubt. This is > what enables the wheel to clear the angle and lip of the fence. After viewing the replay > and thinking about it it becomes quite obvious I suppose. > So at the end of the day you need either an extremely high fence or a lip that > practically acts as a roof over the whole track. Either way, once again, you now have a > structural/monetary nightmare and probable spectator view issues both for TV coverage and > particularly at the track. At the end of the day the m***to the story is "Go to the > races, take your chances!"

> There is one other VERY important lesson here That of posting one's views to a thread in a timely manner? -- Marc J. Nelson The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *