Sierra GPLegends Ad in Poor Taste

All, What is it about gore, *** and death and ignorant marketing PR types? The sd for GP Legends in the latest issue of Computer *** World proclaims: "In 1968 they changed the rules of GrandPrix racing to cut down on driver Fatalities. Welcome to 1967." Are we buying or interested in GPLegends so we can die? I don't think so. I think we all might have vicarious interests in appreciating the danger of driving a GP car in that era but is GP Legends really about driver fatalities? I can't believe that Mike Lescault(sp?) is too pleased with that ad campaign. Jeff Haas

Agreed.....it seems that Sierra is so large that taste is something only the people making the sim have....not marketing PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pink Flamingo Pilot... http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

On the other hand, while the ad may be in poor taste, I don't think it's aimed at racing sim fans... we're all going to buy GPL the day it's released whether they advertise it or not. I think the ad is aimed at the much larger general *** crowd... the folks who buy Quake and Duke Nukem type games... if it succeeds in attracting a good percentage of them, then it's done its job. Trips

Quoted text (27 lines)

> Agreed.....it seems that Sierra is so large that taste is something > only the people making the sim have....not marketing > PAPA DOC > >All, > >What is it about gore, *** and death and ignorant marketing PR > >types? The sd for GP Legends in the latest issue of Computer *** > >World proclaims: > >"In 1968 they changed the rules of GrandPrix racing to cut down on > >driver Fatalities. > >Welcome to 1967." > >Are we buying or interested in GPLegends so we can die? I don't think > >so. I think we all might have vicarious interests in appreciating the > >danger of driving a GP car in that era but is GP Legends really about > >driver fatalities? I can't believe that Mike Lescault(sp?) is too > >pleased with that ad campaign. > >Jeff Haas > Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand > Pink Flamingo Pilot... > http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

Irrespective of your concern over "death" being advertised, I'd like to know how on Earth the marketing people came up with such a weird line!! The rules regarding wings were *written and included* in 1968 (*LATE* 1968) to overcome the dramas occurring with the collapsing of the tall, strut-mounted aerofoils. The actual formula rules, the *core* of the formula, if you like, between the cars raced at the start of the 3.0 litre era (1966) and thos raced in 1968, were almost identical. So what the blazes are they talking about?! Driver fatalities in 1967 were *NOT* due to teams introducing wings in 1968 and were *NOT* due to the Rules being updated later that year in order to ban strut-mounted wings!! As I said...."weird"!!

Quoted text (17 lines)

> All, > What is it about gore, *** and death and ignorant marketing PR > types? The sd for GP Legends in the latest issue of Computer *** > World proclaims: > "In 1968 they changed the rules of GrandPrix racing to cut down on > driver Fatalities. > Welcome to 1967." > Are we buying or interested in GPLegends so we can die? I don't think > so. I think we all might have vicarious interests in appreciating the > danger of driving a GP car in that era but is GP Legends really about > driver fatalities? I can't believe that Mike Lescault(sp?) is too > pleased with that ad campaign. > Jeff Haas

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

You're exactly right Trips. And MOST IMPORTANTLY, justified the expense and manpower to create this and other simmies from Sierra/Papy/et al. Most of us here consider ourselves the *** gamers/simmers but as far as market share, we all combined prolly don't amount to a hill of beans when it comes to sales volume. It's the masses who dabble in arcade mode and only race at 'Dega such that keep Sierra and others in business. TTYL Karl

Poor taste be damned, I like it ;) TTYL Karl

> I think we all might have vicarious interests in appreciating the >danger of driving a GP car in that era but is GP Legends really about >driver fatalities? I agree with you. I'm one of the minority of folks in their target market who remembers when he heard that Jimmy Clark had been killed. It's not a pleasant memory for me, and that ad would be sort of like having something along the lines of... "Grand Prix II -- back to those golden days of 1994 when Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna splattered themselves at 200 mph at Imola before the days of wimpy chicanes and high***pit sides... I hope that for the vast, vast majority of us, death is an unwelcome intruder in the sport we love. I watch for the skill of the drivers and the roar of the cars, and I want my racing sims to reflect those same attitudes. I make a point of avoiding Quake and games of that sort. I've been thinking very seriously of cancelling my subscription to CGW because the ads have become so repulsive, but I never thought that Sierra/Papyrus would stoop so low... ===|============================================== Remove the NOSPAM from my address to mail me ================================================== "You just keep going faster and faster and finally...you burst into fire forever." -- Laura Palmer

I too remember Jim Clark's death though I was only a kid. And I also remember it as a sad event. But it's also true that the instrinsic dangers of motor sport are an element of it's attraction. High speed is exciting precisely because it's dangerous - if it weren't it wouldn't get your heart racing. Dangerous sports are so popular now because they are dangerous. The very many brave souls who have died or been seriously injured at all levels of motor sport are heroes because they risk their lives. The same is true of mountaineers, polar explorers, hang gliders, free-style parachutists etc. I can understand why Sierra/Papyrus would use that line to sell it. And it's different to shoot 'em ups because the risk is perpetrated against one self and not against someone else. PJ

Quoted text (29 lines)

> > I think we all might have vicarious interests in appreciating the > >danger of driving a GP car in that era but is GP Legends really about > >driver fatalities? > I agree with you. I'm one of the minority of folks in their target > market who remembers when he heard that Jimmy Clark had been killed. > It's not a pleasant memory for me, and that ad would be sort of like > having something along the lines of... > "Grand Prix II -- back to those golden days of 1994 when Roland > Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna splattered themselves at 200 mph at > Imola before the days of wimpy chicanes and high***pit sides... > I hope that for the vast, vast majority of us, death is an unwelcome > intruder in the sport we love. I watch for the skill of the drivers > and the roar of the cars, and I want my racing sims to reflect those > same attitudes. I make a point of avoiding Quake and games of that > sort. I've been thinking very seriously of cancelling my subscription > to CGW because the ads have become so repulsive, but I never thought > that Sierra/Papyrus would stoop so low... > ===|============================================== > Remove the NOSPAM from my address to mail me > ================================================== > "You just keep going faster and faster and > finally...you burst into fire forever." > -- Laura Palmer

"Hill of beans"? We'd be lucky to amount to a *PLATE* of beans!! > we all combined prolly don't > amount to a hill of beans when it comes to sales volume. It's the > masses who dabble in arcade mode and only race at 'Dega such that keep > Sierra and others in business. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

What you have written may contain a certain amount of fact but there are also some errors.....the 3.0 litre formula came into being for season 1966; by 1967 the chassis were nothing like those of the 1.5 litre era. However, it doesn't explain the reason why Sierras marketing gurus have written advertising copy that makes no sense, either historically or chronologically!! (I posted a response to this yesterday with some incorrect info:- I said that the rules were changed in 1968 to ban high, strut-mounted wings. This is wrong...there were no rule changes until 1969, at the Monaco GP, where the strut-mounted wings were made illegal.) So that makes the advertising blurb even more incorrect! > GPL's is a simulation based on the year they stepped up to > larger(3.0)engines.Same unstable chassis's,same dangerous tracks but now with > tons more power!!These cars were then put in the hands of extremely skilled........ -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> These days with all the safety Nazi's running around protecting > knuckleheads from disaster we risk having the gene pool ruined. These > types of "games" would take care of that....<VBG> The gene pool is already ruined. Forty years of "Walk/Dont Walk" signs at every intersection and "Close cover before striking" on every matchbook have pretty well covered it. Trips

Im not denigrating any of them. Im attempting to learn a bit about what they did....to better understand what all the books I read about them were talking about... If you are so enamored with Sierra that you cant see that the ad is in poor taste I feel sorry for you. Its only a game....using the deaths of REAL people to advertise a game is wrong....not legally...but morally and besides that its just damn bad taste. What is it wrong to have good taste...must everything be judged against Quake morals and found to be ok...? PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Pink Flamingo Pilot... http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

LOL! I think we've all been there, Neil :o) > I broke my arm cornering *** a tricycle in '63. It was quite > a thrill, but the ruling body at the time (my mom) called it a > "racing incident"....no rules changes, and I moved up to the > bicycle class in '65. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>So you'd get the same thrill "cornering hard" on a tricycle, then? Only if the tires squealed :) Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

hehe....ooh Boy...the genetic marvel attempts to connect several thoughts into something relevent....try again. The Nazi's were arrogant but I dont think they were arrogant enough to claim credit for Natural Selection.....see with Natural Selection unfettered by the safety nazi's many of the genetic marvels running around wouldnt be here. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G> http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

I have reconsidered...now I think that having a device that would actually kill you if you mess up would be a great thing.... PAPA DOC

Quoted text (23 lines)

>Yet another *This sucks!* post...with a nice wrapper. >Why is this a stupid thing? >Remco >>Thats possibly most stupid thing I have ever had the pleasure of reading >>on the net....Congrats. >>PAPA DOC >>>I might sound ***e but, i would love to have a racing sim where i could get >>>injured or killed. this means i have to be carefull while competing for the >>>"crown". being able to get injured or killed brings a game closer to the real >>>thing, THEY CALL IT A SIMULATION for crying out loud. >>>For the people that dont like to be killed we could make an option so you can >>>turn injury/death on/off >>>Micha >>Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand >>Infamous >>Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G> >>http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G> http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

> > So you'd get the same thrill "cornering hard" on a tricycle, then? > I broke my arm cornering *** a tricycle in '63. It was quite > a thrill, but the ruling body at the time (my mom) called it a > "racing incident"....no rules changes, and I moved up to the > bicycle class in '65. Yes, brings the memories flooding back doesn't it? I remember pushing my Tonka crane around on the driveway when all of a sudden I tried to get it's tremendous weight to corner to hard, loosing traction and bringing me down *** the elbow. After the skin grew back, I went back to dinki class where, even though the tyre compounds where still fairly hard (solid ***), they offer a substantial traction increase over plastic wheels. Thinking of my bicycle days makes me wonder how I'm still alive. I remember the good old dragster that was so good for wheelstands and how the back of my head hit the deck real hard the day I snapped the gooseneck clean off. Luckily I was on grass at the time, though the ground was still hard. I'm still seeing stars! And then there was the time we were seeing who could do the longest skid with our racing bikes by leaning way over the handle bars and hitting the back brake. Guess who got the front brake confused with the rear. I'll leave the rest to your imagination. In fact, it happened so fast I really never even knew what happened. I just knew I didn't want to play that particular game any more!

I think the danger of this era is what defined it. To not mention it would be ludicrous. Mountain out of molehill stuff this!

Quoted text (22 lines)

> Im not denigrating any of them. Im attempting to learn a bit about > what they did....to better understand what all the books I read about > them were talking about... > If you are so enamored with Sierra that you cant see that the ad is in > poor taste I feel sorry for you. Its only a game....using the deaths > of REAL people to advertise a game is wrong....not legally...but > morally and besides that its just damn bad taste. What is it wrong to > have good taste...must everything be judged against Quake morals and > found to be ok...? > PAPA DOC > >Oh, come down off your high horse, for Gods' sake!! > >How many "heros" are you denigrating the memory of when you play a > >military flight-sim or historical wargame?! > Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand > Pink Flamingo Pilot... > http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

> > I think having the option of death in racing game would be cool ! Many > > games have death in them . Why not racing games ! > I think it is a complete waste of time. If you want death in your > games play one of the shoot-em-up games. I would much rather have Or just play any of the available flight sims... what's the difference? l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

:o) Fair enough!

Quoted text (7 lines)

> >So you'd get the same thrill "cornering hard" on a tricycle, then? > Only if the tires squealed :) > Randy > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>The drivers did not "demand" anything in 1967, 1968 nor 1969. >They would not "demand" anything with regard to safety until led in that >direction by one Jackie Stewart, several years later. Yup your right Bruce Jackie was the man who got it started but I thought the ball would have been well and truly rolling by the time he got involved. As for the ad its a hook, I dont think Sierra is looking for historical fact but rather a selling point and that one is as good as any. Todd. p.s I may not talk the talk but I sure as hell can walk the walk

Agreed, now for my effort in the bandwidth waste war... What do you want to bet that this isn't the last message of the thread though? :-) Deaths, accidents and incidents don't define the sport that we all follow in some way. However, unfortunately it is the reason far to many people start watching, and continue to watch. Just ask someone to be honest when they tell you why they watch Nascar, and a little Cart/IRL and not GP, it's more exciting these days to see people put their life at risk. Look at the majority of the pictures out there besides the 'promo shots' of driver X standing with his car/crew, the pit shots outweigh the clean race shots, but the crash shots shadow them both. I've been following auto racing in as many of it's variants as I can for about 20 years now... I like the sport, not the danger... but that's not what sells anymore. Anyone remember hockey when it didn't involve fighting? There was a day when that sport involved a few hot headed tempers, but it has escalated to the point where the fight could arguably be called a part of the game. Now the point on having your player injured or dead... it would be a good feature because a lot of people just don't drive with their head... but how many people would be backing up their player files in case they don't want to kill or injure the player... and how would you work that? If you tag the wall and bust up your legs, do you not get to play the game for 6 weeks? Or if you die, do you have to send a cheque in to Sierra to get a key to unlock the game, or do you just throw it out? How about if you put someone else in the field out (it would only be realistic if the death rules applied to computer drivers too) You figure by the end of the season, if you are still alive, there would be a really thin pack... or all new rookies. :) Anyway, I'm just yanking your chains... but ask yourselves one question, do you want a driving sim or an RPG? And you have to admit, even if you found that the add crossed the line of good taste (and I feel that people have been reading too much in to it... I think it was close to the line but not over), the majority of us will still buy it because that was a monumental and historical time in auto racing history, and it just looks like a lot of work went into it so it 'should' be one of the best sims out there. But the simple fact of the matter is, many of the sport's pioneers did die in the era in question, but if you looked at the demo... you know it's not about that at all, it is a racing sim that tries to mimic the physics, driving model, look and feel of the era, not have screenshots of people dismembered and thrown from their cars. After all, as much as people like to *** about the holes they found in Indy500, IRC/ICR2, Nascar/Nascar2, Papyrus has always put the best sims out there for the times they were released. But if you don't agree with the new management's advertising methods.... don't by the game, and remember it _IS_ only a game. So how bout a GP sim without fuel stops, or is that too early a period for some of you in auto racing history too? ;-) Joe Walsh Supercity Internet Services

Quoted text (22 lines)

>> Im not denigrating any of them. Im attempting to learn a bit about >> what they did....to better understand what all the books I read about >> them were talking about... >> If you are so enamored with Sierra that you cant see that the ad is in >> poor taste I feel sorry for you. Its only a game....using the deaths >> of REAL people to advertise a game is wrong....not legally...but >> morally and besides that its just damn bad taste. What is it wrong to >> have good taste...must everything be judged against Quake morals and >> found to be ok...? >> PAPA DOC >> >Oh, come down off your high horse, for Gods' sake!! >> >How many "heros" are you denigrating the memory of when you play a >> >military flight-sim or historical wargame?! >> Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand >> Pink Flamingo Pilot... >> http://home.earthlink.net/~plegrand/PINKFLAMINGO.htm

Sure, Todd....it's a 'hook" but Jeez....they could have at least got it *right*! :o) > As for the ad its a hook, I dont think Sierra is looking for historical > fact but rather a selling point and that one is as good as any. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Byron, I don't understand your perspective. My feeling is that Papy has a world market product in GP Legends because of the F1 theme and didn't need to resort to 12-16 year old male demographics for targeting its advertising. Bad taste for people that will buy the game was my point. Regards, Jeff Haas

Hah Jo mahy. Eybennagh fahayoes fowalowngasstahm. Whuzzup? -- mark "If you get to the point where you truly understand what the term 'controlled looseness' means, then, and only then, do you know what the term 'fast' means." F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm Remove us here and there to mail me. > I think the danger of this era is what defined it. To not mention it would be >ludicrous. Mountain out of molehill stuff this!

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Byron, > I don't understand your perspective. My feeling is that Papy has a > world market product in GP Legends because of the F1 theme and didn't > need to resort to 12-16 year old male demographics for targeting its > advertising. Bad taste for people that will buy the game was my > point.

Some of you may kid yourself that the danger aspect of the sport only appeals to 14 year olds, but your just wrong. In fact, we are talking about the very difference between sim racing and real life racing here. The danger element is the key element in racing and the fact this danger was very high in this era more than justifies this type of sales pitch IMO. This is what makes them "Heros"! Why you are all so sentimental about these deceased drivers I do not know. Go visit a baby born ***ed to *** if you want to feel sorry for someone. To me, this is just about outrageously out of perspective! I'd guess there are people who will die of old age that would have gladly swapped places with some of these deceased racing drivers just to have experienced the highs of such a lifestyle. Like I said before, I think some of you need to put this stuff into perspective a little.

Denny Hulme actually stated that when he died he hoped that it would be at the wheel of a racing car. It may not have been a Brabham BT20 but he went out the way he wanted. I agree Byron......there are an awful lot of sanctimonious hypocrites out there who, if they would be honest and stopped being so ***y politically correct for five minutes, would feel a damn sight better by admitting that they like the danger aspect of their motor racing spectating. Life is a lottery, boys and girls, whether you are motor racing or driving to work.

Quoted text (10 lines)

> Some of you may kid yourself that the danger aspect of the sport only appeals to 14 year > olds, but your just wrong. In fact, we are talking about the very difference between sim > racing and real life racing here. The danger element is the key element in racing and the > fact this danger was very high in this era more than justifies this type of sales pitch IMO. > This is what makes them "Heros"! Why you are all so sentimental about these deceased drivers > I do not know. Go visit a baby born ***ed to *** if you want to feel sorry for > someone. To me, this is just about outrageously out of perspective! I'd guess there are > people who will die of old age that would have gladly swapped places with some of these > deceased racing drivers just to have experienced the highs of such a lifestyle. Like I said > before, I think some of you need to put this stuff into perspective a little.

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> These days with all the safety Nazi's running around protecting > knuckleheads from disaster we risk having the gene pool ruined. I used to think like this before I got a better understanding of how natural selection works :o). I think I have a better understanding of it now, but I'm not sure. I dont ever want to be so sure of things, like you seem to be, Papa Doc, because I would be too afraid of fooling myself :o). /Christer, just a little bit smarter than a chimp, relatively speaking

Fatalities are in bad taste, but injuries and writing off your motor (and not having it repaired with the press of a button) are passable. These are in effect in each major racing series, each race, each season, so maybe they should be included in sims. -- Spudgun

Guys, are all Aussies as outspoken as you two, man I love your style guys, keep it up :-D Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

Quoted text (33 lines)

> Denny Hulme actually stated that when he died he hoped that it would be > at the wheel of a racing car. > It may not have been a Brabham BT20 but he went out the way he wanted. > I agree Byron......there are an awful lot of sanctimonious hypocrites > out there who, if they would be honest and stopped being so ***y > politically correct for five minutes, would feel a damn sight better by > admitting that they like the danger aspect of their motor racing > spectating. > Life is a lottery, boys and girls, whether you are motor racing or > driving to work. > > Some of you may kid yourself that the danger aspect of the sport only appeals to 14 year > > olds, but your just wrong. In fact, we are talking about the very difference between sim > > racing and real life racing here. The danger element is the key element in racing and the > > fact this danger was very high in this era more than justifies this type of sales pitch IMO. > > This is what makes them "Heros"! Why you are all so sentimental about these deceased drivers > > I do not know. Go visit a baby born ***ed to *** if you want to feel sorry for > > someone. To me, this is just about outrageously out of perspective! I'd guess there are > > people who will die of old age that would have gladly swapped places with some of these > > deceased racing drivers just to have experienced the highs of such a lifestyle. Like I said > > before, I think some of you need to put this stuff into perspective a little. > -- > Regards, > Bruce. > ---------- > The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- > http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

It seems that many people have forgotten that racing back then was indeed considered a "Professional ***sport" as stated by Steve McQueen and Hemmingway. Sure, noone wanted to see any driver (or even spectators) back then get killed. But that whole element of danger did add to the romantic nature of what was Grand Prix racing in that era, and to a certian extent, even today. Personally I dont see why everyone is so uptight about the injury/death thing anyway. Injuries are commonplace in several sports (and in most of their respective sims as well), so why must there be a double-standard here? Also, I dont think any of the parties involved in making this sim have a problem with the death issue either. Otherwise, none of the families of late drivers would have granted the use of their names. As far as the Sierra ad goes. I dont think they are selling death, but rather the whole element of danger inherent in the sport back then. If they wanted to sell death, a picture of something like Bandini crashing in a flaming wreck would have graced those pages instead. F1Filter

He shoots.......he scores!!!! Right on, Bryon. I've witnessed three fatalities at IMS, Art Pollard (1973), Gordon Smiley (1982) and Scott Brayton (1996). They were all very disturbing, especially Gordon Smiley as there was basically nothing left of the car. I do not like witnessing such things. However, the risk and the associated anxiety adds to the e***ment, like it or not. This is why many prefer open wheel racing at 200+MPH to stock cars. If a driver "rubs" in an open wheel car, he/she may likely only do so once. It simply requires bigger balls. I was a fan of Scott Brayton - a likable guy who was in the sport for the right reasons. He simply enjoyed it. You could hear it in his voice and see it on his face. However, when I think back about him and his death, I don't "feel sorry" for him. For his orphaned daughter, absolutely. For him, no. While he didn't make a mistake (his tire blew), he knew the risks and likely had a smile on his face when he entered turn two. You nailed it Bryon. Let's have some perspective. As for political correctness, subjective analysis of others "taste," blah, blah, friggin', blah, get over it. Jim

Quoted text (10 lines)

> Some of you may kid yourself that the danger aspect of the sport only appeals to 14 year > olds, but your just wrong. In fact, we are talking about the very difference between sim > racing and real life racing here. The danger element is the key element in racing and the > fact this danger was very high in this era more than justifies this type of sales pitch IMO. > This is what makes them "Heros"! Why you are all so sentimental about these deceased drivers > I do not know. Go visit a baby born ***ed to *** if you want to feel sorry for > someone. To me, this is just about outrageously out of perspective! I'd guess there are > people who will die of old age that would have gladly swapped places with some of these > deceased racing drivers just to have experienced the highs of such a lifestyle. Like I said > before, I think some of you need to put this stuff into perspective a little.

Thank you for your follow-up. > It seems that many people have forgotten that racing back then was indeed > considered a "Professional ***sport" (snip) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Probably not, Goy, but then, I'm a crotchety old bastard who was brought up with the ideal that one says what one feels and to hell with "political correctness". It may not be the politically correct thing to do but at least it's the morally right thing to do. > Guys, are all Aussies as outspoken as you two, man I love your style > guys, keep it up :-D

3 -- Bruce #33 >Oh, come down off your high horse, for Gods' sake!! >How many "heros" are you denigrating the memory of when you play a >military flight-sim or historical wargame?! >> Sorry to bust up the party....but selling a game is no reason to be >> disrespectful to the very hero's we are simulating....there is no >> justification to selling death. This is a game...nothing more. The >> people who died were NOT playing a game and using their ultimate >> sacrifice to sell a game is something we should be upset about.... >-- >Regards, >Bruce. >---------- >The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- >http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Which 3, Phil? > 3 -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

The best example to me is Senna's death. His family is obviously the most affected by his death, and at the time I'm sure the overwhelming majority of the world felt sorrow for his passing. But at the end of the day I think the worst thing about it is that there is 1 less super driver in F1. It's much more "boo hoo, F1's not what it used to be" rather than "boo hoo, our beloved Ayrton's gone". I never knew or met the man! Besides, we're all checking out of planet earth somewhere along the line. I'm a lot more concerned about delaying my unavoidable death than brooding on someone elses :)) Had Papy's sales pitch been something like "This was the year it took them 2 weeks to scrape Driver X up off the track after his brains, etc were spattered all over the place" then some of the posts crying disrespect would have had some justification. As it stands I see no need for any protest at all. Seems like some here have been going to church 7 days a week. Try and cut back to just Sundays folks!

Quoted text (24 lines)

> He shoots.......he scores!!!! Right on, Bryon. > I've witnessed three fatalities at IMS, Art Pollard (1973), Gordon > Smiley (1982) and Scott Brayton (1996). They were all very disturbing, > especially Gordon Smiley as there was basically nothing left of the car. > I do not like witnessing such things. However, the risk and the > associated anxiety adds to the e***ment, like it or not. This is why > many prefer open wheel racing at 200+MPH to stock cars. If a driver > "rubs" in an open wheel car, he/she may likely only do so once. It > simply requires bigger balls. > I was a fan of Scott Brayton - a likable guy who was in the sport for > the right reasons. He simply enjoyed it. You could hear it in his voice > and see it on his face. However, when I think back about him and his > death, I don't "feel sorry" for him. For his orphaned daughter, > absolutely. For him, no. While he didn't make a mistake (his tire blew), > he knew the risks and likely had a smile on his face when he entered > turn two. > You nailed it Bryon. Let's have some perspective. As for political > correctness, subjective analysis of others "taste," blah, blah, > friggin', blah, get over it. > Jim

OK, enough of this. I happen to enjoy scaring the shit out of myself in my Porsche Boxster but I don't want to die in it and there is a BIG difference between playing up a death wish and enjoying being on the edge. I don't consider myself a ***ing politically correct person and if you knew me you would laugh at the suggestion. I am just fed up with the bullshit advertising that has escalated in the game community. I have no patience for the "lowest common denominator" mentality that seems to have swept through everything and playing up death is just that in this instance. I look forward to the next version of 'Legends when we can see Mr. Lauda's face on fire in 1024x768 24 bit color tri filtered, mulitple light sourcing with the flesh blistering. Imagine the sales for that one! Jeff

> OK, enough of this. Why? Well, there you go! You managed to let us all know that you have a Porsche Boxster. Feel better now? You probably will, if you keep scaring yourself or, even worse, you'll kill someone else and manage to survive yourself. ....nor one with a large vocabulary either, it would appear. A stroke of genius! The major advertising houses will be beating a path to your door even as I type! -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>Well, there you go! You managed to let us all know that you have a >Porsche Boxster. Feel better now? ROFL! Good one...hey I'll just slip in that I have a '99 Miata...<G> (see, everyone can play :) ) Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Which, I think, is what is called the 'MX-5' down here? The two-seater? > ROFL! Good one...hey I'll just slip in that I have a '99 Miata...<G> > (see, everyone can play :) ) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

On Fri, 10 Jul 1998 22:58:08 +1000, Bruce Kennewell _______ Bruce, Well I guess you took the bait. I'm outta here on this one. Sorry I even mentioned the wonderful ad. bye, Jeff

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Which, I think, is what is called the 'MX-5' down here? The two-seater? >> ROFL! Good one...hey I'll just slip in that I have a '99 Miata...<G> >> (see, everyone can play :) )

Yup, that's the one. Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Nice little machine.....the new model is now outselling the MGF, but then it's also AUS$10,000 cheaper! > Yup, that's the one. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

MGF?!

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Nice little machine.....the new model is now outselling the MGF, but >then it's also AUS$10,000 cheaper! >> Yup, that's the one.

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Yeah....been on sale down here for about a year. Nice car but way overpriced. > MGF?! -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Randy Magruder wrote

Quoted text (10 lines)

>MGF?! >>Nice little machine.....the new model is now outselling the MGF, but >>then it's also AUS$10,000 cheaper! >>> Yup, that's the one.

Hehe MGF as a car manufacturer or car brand ? Randy... those poeple live in a _very_ bizarre world, with all those "Ford Mondeo's" and "Citroen 2CV's". ;-) . Bruce, does Aussies drive to the left or right of the road ? (dont tell me in the middle hehe) Im like "huh?" anytime they mentions car names outside North America ;-) - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

What's MGF mean?! Randy

Quoted text (7 lines)

>Yeah....been on sale down here for about a year. Nice car but way >overpriced. >> MGF?!

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Owned an MGF for about a year now - not bad all round (for the price). Still leaks like they used to but the mid-mount engine is great to drive. Dollar for dollar though, the new MX5 looks like the packge to beat. mtc. stephen

Quoted text (17 lines)

> What's MGF mean?! > Randy > >Yeah....been on sale down here for about a year. Nice car but way > >overpriced. > >> MGF?! > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

-- In a feeble attempt to thwart spammers I have altered my email address. Remove the obvious bit before replying. "I think, therefore I yam what I yam." - Popeye Descartes

The "MGF" is the new MG model from the Rover/BMW group. It uses the 'K' series, 1.8 litre Rover engine, which also powers the lotus Elise. The car will not be sold in North America (at least in its present form). There are very, very few Citroen 2CVs down here...any that are seen were privately imported. The Ford Mondeo was introduced about a year after it was released for sale in Britain. It's not a very popular model. The most popular manufacturers for the month of June included Huyundai (Korean); Holden (Australian GM); Toyota; Ford; Daewoo (Korean). Traditionally the two major Australian "family" cars, the Holden commodre and Ford Falcon, have been the most popular, due to their six-cylinder (with V8 option) engines. We drive on the left-hand side of the road, like the British and Japanese.

Quoted text (7 lines)

> Hehe MGF as a car manufacturer or car brand ? > Randy... those poeple live in a _very_ bizarre world, with all those "Ford > Mondeo's" and "Citroen 2CV's". ;-) . Bruce, does Aussies drive to the > left or right of the road ? (dont tell me in the middle hehe) > Im like "huh?" anytime they mentions car names outside North America ;-)

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

The car is an 'MG" and the model designation is 'F'. Don't tell me that you have never heard of the MG?!!!!!! > What's MGF mean?! -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Not in THIS country

Quoted text (8 lines)

>The car is an 'MG" and the model designation is 'F'. >Don't tell me that you have never heard of the MG?!!!!!! >> What's MGF mean?!

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

> MGF?! A 2 seater made by Rover. -- Andrew Fielden. UK.

You mean that you haven't *heard* of it (MG) there or it's (the F)not *sold* there? If the latter, yes, I'm aware of that. If the former....good grief! > Not in THIS country -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Never heard of or seen an MG??????? Well, it's something like one of those 427 Shelby Cobras (The ones without the roofs - I must get one of those one day btw) with about 1/4 the engine in it. Great little cars.

Quoted text (16 lines)

> Not in THIS country > >The car is an 'MG" and the model designation is 'F'. > >Don't tell me that you have never heard of the MG?!!!!!! > >> What's MGF mean?! > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Never heard of it.

Quoted text (9 lines)

>You mean that you haven't *heard* of it (MG) there or it's (the F)not >*sold* there? >If the latter, yes, I'm aware of that. >If the former....good grief! >> Not in THIS country

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

You are definitely trolling, aren't you? > Never heard of it. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Trolling?!...He's draggin' the ***y lake! ;) > You are definitely trolling, aren't you? > > Never heard of it. -- The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail * * To reply, change anti.spam.net to worldnet.att.net *

If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've never heard of it. Get a life. Randy >You are definitely trolling, aren't you? >> Never heard of it. Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

> If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. > There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding > to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've > never heard of it. Get a life. Not knowing one of the last British made cars is close to insulting Her Majesty... ;^) Didn't you know that? l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Relax, buddy. I think Bruce was merely ribbing you... =) Cheers! Marc

Quoted text (19 lines)

> If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. > There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding > to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've > never heard of it. Get a life. > Randy > >You are definitely trolling, aren't you? > >> Never heard of it. > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

-- The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail * * To reply, change anti.spam.net to worldnet.att.net *

Gee...I didn't know Claudia Schieffer<sp?> made cars? > Not knowing one of the last British made cars is close to insulting > Her Majesty... ;^) Didn't you know that? -- The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail * * To reply, change anti.spam.net to worldnet.att.net *

> If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. > There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding > to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've > never heard of it. Get a life. > Randy Oh brother Dang Randy, I was sure you were pulling Bruce`s leg on this one, I was eagerly anticipating a cruel punchline from your end :-) MG was (is) an old English car maker (from the 20`s if I`m not mistaken) They have made som VERY famous small and fairly cheap sportscars over the years, some of wich was extremly popular in the "states" Have a look :-) http://www.mgcars.org.uk/ Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

Thanks for smiling...hard to tell who to take seriously and who not to sometimes. Regarding insulting the British by being ignorant of their cars? Well, why stop now :) <G>

Quoted text (10 lines)

>> If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. >> There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding >> to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've >> never heard of it. Get a life. >Not knowing one of the last British made cars is close to insulting >Her Majesty... ;^) Didn't you know that? >l8er >ronny

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

When a smiley of any kind is missing, its hard to tell ribbing from blasting... :-\ Randy

Quoted text (28 lines)

>Relax, buddy. I think Bruce was merely ribbing you... =) >Cheers! >Marc >> If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. >> There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding >> to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've >> never heard of it. Get a life. >> Randy >> >You are definitely trolling, aren't you? >> >> Never heard of it. >> Randy Magruder >> http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

>Dang Randy, I was sure you were pulling Bruce`s leg on this one, I was >eagerly anticipating a cruel punchline from your end :-) I wish I was...maybe next time! :) Hm... oh..okay...:) Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

> When a smiley of any kind is missing, its hard to tell ribbing from > blasting... :-\ Just a couple of days ago I said in another post that 95% of the heated debates on Usenet are started by a missing smiley... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

However, a smiley doesn't qualify as a joke either...Get to know some of the people here (and the way they respond while in r.a.s.), and you'll find out how to read between the lines of a post, all without the need for inflectional characters. BTW... ;) Cheers! Marc > When a smiley of any kind is missing, its hard to tell ribbing from > blasting... :-\ -- The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail * * To reply, change anti.spam.net to worldnet.att.net *

The US was the largest customer of MG cars, indeed of any British sports car. > They have made som VERY famous small and fairly cheap sportscars over > the years, some of wich was extremly popular in the "states" -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

HAHAHAHA!! Good come-back, Randy! :o) I was under the impression that you were something of a knowledgable person when it came to things of a motoring nature. Obviously not, if you've never heard of the MG marque! Indeed....get a life! :o) > If being asked a question and answering it is trolling, I guess I am. > There's nothing quite like being slammed in a newsgroup for responding > to a message about a car you've never heard of by acknowledging you've > never heard of it. Get a life. > Randy -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

It wasn't a "blast"...simply an expression of amazement! > When a smiley of any kind is missing, its hard to tell ribbing from > blasting... :-\ -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Umm, we are NOT British. We are Australian. > Thanks for smiling...hard to tell who to take seriously and who not to > sometimes. Regarding insulting the British by being ignorant of their > cars? Well, why stop now :) <G> -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

I see nothing wrong with the ad !

I'm sure there must have been one of these things in one of the Sean Connery James Bond movies or even a few of the earlier Roger Moore ones. I'll bet you've seen one Randy but just never knew what it was. A friend of mine used to own a mint condition MG/A which was great for getting sideways on its almost bicycle like tyres :)

Quoted text (17 lines)

> >Dang Randy, I was sure you were pulling Bruce`s leg on this one, I was > >eagerly anticipating a cruel punchline from your end :-) > I wish I was...maybe next time! :) > >MG was (is) an old English car maker (from the 20`s if I`m not mistaken) > Hm... > >They have made som VERY famous small and fairly cheap sportscars over > >the years, some of wich was extremly popular in the "states" > oh..okay...:) > Randy > Randy Magruder > http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Not that it matters, but my 1976 MGB (I call her Maggie) is sitting in my garage with a spun rod bearing. ;-( A friend and I restored her in 1993-4. An issue with the oil pump ruined her day. Kids and career have since shifted my priorities. I'm more "accessible" when sim racing. ;-) Maggie sits today, beautiful, but silent. Hopefully, in the next year or two we will find the time to fix her. I will say this. Whenever I drove Maggie, I got far more attention than my friend gets in his 1998 Corvette. People say things at the gas pump like, "my uncle had a... blah blah blah." My ***-bumpered B is perhaps among the red-headed step-children of British cars. However, I just can't give her up. In my very biased opinion, there are very few cars with the personality and curb appeal of a MGx or Midget, Austin-Healey, Triumph Spitfire or TRy (where y<=6). I recommend that those of you in the states that are not familiar with British cars spend a Saturday afternoon at a local British car show. You may be tempted because many are relatively inexpensive. Before you part with the bucks to buy one, make sure that you have plenty of tools and/or lamination on your credit card, if you know what I mean. ;-) <sigh> Jim

Quoted text (28 lines)

> I'm sure there must have been one of these things in one of the Sean Connery James > Bond movies or even a few of the earlier Roger Moore ones. I'll bet you've seen one Randy > but just never knew what it was. A friend of mine used to own a mint condition MG/A which > was great for getting sideways on its almost bicycle like tyres :) > > >Dang Randy, I was sure you were pulling Bruce`s leg on this one, I was > > >eagerly anticipating a cruel punchline from your end :-) > > I wish I was...maybe next time! :) > > >MG was (is) an old English car maker (from the 20`s if I`m not mistaken) > > Hm... > > >They have made som VERY famous small and fairly cheap sportscars over > > >the years, some of wich was extremly popular in the "states" > > oh..okay...:) > > Randy > > Randy Magruder > > [link lost in import]

i've got a 1954 MG-TF. this model followed the MG-TC and the MG-TD. it was replaced by the MG-A and later, the MG-B and MG Midget. the TF model is somewhat more streamlined than the TC's & TD's and has the headlights built into the body. it still has the classic short doors, fold down front windshield, octagonal instruments, wire wheels and no gas gauge. the engine is a 1250cc. the styling didn't change much from the 1930s until the late 1950s. they are a beautiful car. j

A friend of mine owned an MGB and did all of the work himself. He paid a good deal of money to the the factory manual. He was torquing the head bolts and looked up the settings. The manual said (and I did read this to comfirm) "tighten head bolts but do not snap"! That was the only mention of head bolts. So if anyone from the UK "pretends" to not know about British cars, I do not hold that against them. They are entitled. The British drink warm beer because they have Lucas refrigerators! buzard

Thank you, folks, for helping to enlighten Mr. Macgruder. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The MG Car Club of Canberra is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/mgcc/

> Umm, we are NOT British. > We are Australian. Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? 8-) *Peter* (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

>Thank you, folks, for helping to enlighten Mr. Macgruder. That's MAGRUDER :) Randy Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Buh cha'll hayve thu sayme axsaints now, doncha boahs? -- mark "If you get to the point where you truly understand what the term 'controlled looseness' means, then, and only then, do you know what the term 'fast' means." F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm Remove us here and there to mail me. Oh....I totally agree, Peter. I come from a long line of British stock. But the gentleman was a bit mixed up with his natiionalities, I think. > > Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? > > 8-) > > *Peter* > (NB: remove asterix to e-mail) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Oh....I totally agree, Peter. I come from a long line of British stock. But the gentleman was a bit mixed up with his natiionalities, I think. > Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? > 8-) > *Peter* > (NB: remove asterix to e-mail) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Ooooops!! Sorry about that incorrect spelling, Mr. Magruder (who is obviously NOT Scottish and has no interest in bagpipes whatsoever!) > That's MAGRUDER :) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

I've actually always wondered what a good old MG/B would be like with some type of turbo motor plus good suspension and wheels/tyres. I reckon if someone started buying these thing up and giving them a state of the art makeover that they could do very well. I see this is happening with the Datsun 240Zs now. Cars these days have so much emphasis on aerodynamics that they will never match the character of some of these older classics.

Quoted text (21 lines)

> Not that it matters, but my 1976 MGB (I call her Maggie) is sitting in > my garage with a spun rod bearing. ;-( A friend and I restored her in > 1993-4. An issue with the oil pump ruined her day. Kids and career have > since shifted my priorities. I'm more "accessible" when sim racing. ;-) > Maggie sits today, beautiful, but silent. > Hopefully, in the next year or two we will find the time to fix her. I > will say this. Whenever I drove Maggie, I got far more attention than my > friend gets in his 1998 Corvette. People say things at the gas pump > like, "my uncle had a... blah blah blah." My ***-bumpered B is > perhaps among the red-headed step-children of British cars. However, I > just can't give her up. > In my very biased opinion, there are very few cars with the personality > and curb appeal of a MGx or Midget, Austin-Healey, Triumph Spitfire or > TRy (where y<=6). I recommend that those of you in the states that are > not familiar with British cars spend a Saturday afternoon at a local > British car show. You may be tempted because many are relatively > inexpensive. Before you part with the bucks to buy one, make sure that > you have plenty of tools and/or lamination on your credit card, if you > know what I mean. ;-)

I think you've got the wrong thread here, mate. This one's about cars, fridges and warm beer" :) PJ > I see nothing wrong with the ad !

> We drive on the left-hand side of the road, like the British and > Japanese. And you also have cars with peaks on the front like baseball caps and bars on the front like cages - must be all the Australian sun :)

As we sail farther away from the thread...Magruder *IS* scottish, descended from MacGruder and MacGregor.

Quoted text (8 lines)

>Ooooops!! >Sorry about that incorrect spelling, Mr. Magruder (who is obviously NOT >Scottish and has no interest in bagpipes whatsoever!) >> That's MAGRUDER :)

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

Distribution: Didn't MG revive the old 'B' for a few years in the early 90s (as the Rover RV8??) with the Rover V8 and some cosmetic freshening? It was a dog and out of its league in the 90s. They should have jumped straight to the 'F and left us with fond memories of the 'B. As for brand recognition in America, I'm sure it depends on where Randy was from. I came from Toronto, which seemed to have the right mix of affluence and British roots to fuel a healthy market for MGBs, Midgets, Spitfires, and TR6s. But if I went out to the more rural areas, I would see 100 Barracudas, Challengers, AMXs, Mustangs and Camaros before I saw one Italian or British sports car. Stephen : I've actually always wondered what a good old MG/B would be like with some type of turbo : motor plus good suspension and wheels/tyres. I reckon if someone started buying these thing up : and giving them a state of the art makeover that they could do very well. I see this is : happening with the Datsun 240Zs now. Cars these days have so much emphasis on aerodynamics that : they will never match the character of some of these older classics. : : :

> Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? Look at 'em come out of the woodwork now they've won a ***y cricket match or 2! :))

Did you say cars, fridges and warm beer? That reminds me of this time......................

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I think you've got the wrong thread here, mate. This one's about cars, > fridges and warm beer" :) > PJ > > I see nothing wrong with the ad !

Odd! I would have supposed that, without the "C", the name would have derived from the Prussian "Mahgrujder (with those two dots over the 'u')but if it was a mix of the two clans MacGregor and MacGruder then so be it. At least it's not Irish, so you can be thankful for small mercies, hey?! :o) Does this mean that you now DO, in fact, have an interest in bagpipes or is that just a vicious rumour? > As we sail farther away from the thread...Magruder *IS* scottish, > descended from MacGruder and MacGregor. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Nyet! There is no comparison between the Oz accent and the many diverse British accents. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> Didn't MG revive the old 'B' for a few years in the early 90s > (as the Rover RV8??) with the Rover V8 and some cosmetic freshening? Yes, they did. It was not a 'dog'. It was an extremely successful car, being almost totally exported to Japan, who couldn't get enough of them. It was a far superior vehicle to any of the ***-bumper models that were made for export to the USA. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

> > Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? > Look at 'em come out of the woodwork now they've won a ***y cricket match or 2! :)) Cricket ? Never heard of that, what is it ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

I totally agree...You sound nothing like Dorothy, and your bark is much deeper than Toto's. ;) Cheers! Marc > Nyet! > There is no comparison between the Oz accent and the many diverse > British accents. -- The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail * * To reply, change anti.spam.net to worldnet.att.net *

Actually, its more accurate to say an interest in bagpipes went out with the "C". Randy

Quoted text (15 lines)

>Odd! >I would have supposed that, without the "C", the name would have derived >from the Prussian "Mahgrujder (with those two dots over the 'u')but if >it was a mix of the two clans MacGregor and MacGruder then so be it. >At least it's not Irish, so you can be thankful for small mercies, hey?! >:o) >Does this mean that you now DO, in fact, have an interest in bagpipes or >is that just a vicious rumour? >> As we sail farther away from the thread...Magruder *IS* scottish, >> descended from MacGruder and MacGregor.

Randy Magruder http://members.home.com/rmagruder

> Oh....I totally agree, Peter. > I come from a long line of British stock. Thats all right then..... 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

> Nyet! > There is no comparison between the Oz accent and the many diverse > British accents. True? especially the good old***ney accent (of which I happen to be an expert). Demonstration now follows..... Adam & Eve - believe (I don't adam & eve it?) Apples & pears - stairs Bakers dozen - cousin Barnet fair - hair Battle & cruiser- boozer (public house) Bees & honey - money Berkshire hunt - derogatory (work it out!) Boat race - face Brass tacks - facts Bricks & mortar - daughter Bubble & squeak - greek Butchers hook - look Carving knife - wife Current bun - the sun Dog & bone - phone Fine & dandy - brandy Flowery dell - cell Frog & toad - road Gay & frisky - whisky Half inch - pinch Hampstead heath - teeth Jack & Danny - *** Jam jar - Car Mince pies - eyes North & south - mouth Peckham rye - tie Plates of meat - feet Pony & trap - *** Richard the 3rd - turd Rosy Lea - tea Skin & blister - sister Sky rocket - pocket Struggle & strife - wife Tea leaf - thief Tomfoolery - jewellery (commonly known as Tom) Trouble & strife - wife Two & eight - state Whistle & flute - suit Nuff said!!!! 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

> Buh cha'll hayve thu sayme axsaints now, doncha boahs? I say, I beg your pardon old chap! Are you perchance, speaking to me? There are different accents within London, (North and South London) as well as in the South of England,(Surrey and Essex) and in Britain in general,(Irish, Welsh, Scottish, Midlands, Northern English, etc) let alone between the English and Australians? 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

Bit like Baseball, except much slower, and I mean a *lot* slower? (they stop for tea!) 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

> Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? > Look at 'em come out of the woodwork now they've won a ***y > cricket match or 2! :)) I have not come out of the woodwork, I have *always* been British! And don't forget that although we *have* won a cricket match, we have also lost at Wimbledon, lost at the World cup (WE WOZ ROBBED!), lost at motor racing, and generally lose at most things, but especially any games we happen to have invented in the first place! *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

> > Cricket ? Never heard of that, what is it ? > Bit like Baseball, except much slower, and I mean a *lot* slower? > (they stop for tea!) LOL

Quoted text (11 lines)

> > Oi! Theres nowt wrong with being British? > > Look at 'em come out of the woodwork now they've won a ***y > > cricket match or 2! :)) > I have not come out of the woodwork, I have *always* been British! > And don't forget that although we *have* won a cricket match, we have > also lost at Wimbledon, lost at the World cup (WE WOZ ROBBED!), lost > at motor racing, and generally lose at most things, but especially any > games we happen to have invented in the first place!

LOL. But I hear you went ok on the street of France! :)) Don't tell me you lost that one too!

The *** bumper models were not proper MGBs. And the Japanese have a habit of choosing form over function, so the fact that it sold well there means very little. It was just a big motor sitting in an antiquated chassis, with some overdone restyling. If it gave them enough cash to make the 'F, then I suppose that's a good thing, but it certainly wouldn't make my list of cars to buy. Stephen : > : > : > Didn't MG revive the old 'B' for a few years in the early 90s : > (as the Rover RV8??) with the Rover V8 and some cosmetic freshening? : > : : Yes, they did. : : It was not a 'dog'. It was an extremely successful car, being almost : totally exported to Japan, who couldn't get enough of them. It was a : far superior vehicle to any of the ***-bumper models that were made : for export to the USA. : : : -- : Regards, : Bruce. : ---------- : The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- : http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Not to mention the fact that the Yellow Brick Road is full of potholes and littered with dead kangaroos and wombats.:o) > I totally agree...You sound nothing like Dorothy, and your bark > is much deeper than Toto's. ;) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

LOL! That'd be C-flat, i would imagine! > Actually, its more accurate to say an interest in bagpipes went out > with the "C". -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Yeah, but the accent was missing! > True? especially the good old***ney accent (of which I happen to be > an expert). > Demonstration now follows..... -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

It would mine because in future years, due to its scarcity, it will be worth considerably more than any 'F'. One changed hands here in Western Australia for over $60,000 (Aus)a year ago and another has recently been advertised for $65,000. The VVC 'F' is $55,000 on the road and second hand/demonstrator models are now selling at proper (below new price) levels. As a collectable the MGRV8 will pee all over the 'F'. > but it certainly wouldn't make my list of cars to > buy. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Distribution: Well, in my case the joy of ownership comes from driving, not from speculating on future monetary gains. Fact is, even my worst mutual fund is going to out-earn an MGRV8 as a long-term investment, so a car's collectibility is a moot point from an objective viewpoint. So, if it's a bad investment, and doesn't drive very well, and ruins what was once a beautiful shape (say late 60's MGB), then what's the point? Stephen : : As a collectable the MGRV8 will pee all over the 'F'. : : > : > but it certainly wouldn't make my list of cars to : > buy. : >

The "point", friend Steve, is exclusivity. For me, the fact that the car is a (relatively) rare model from a mainstream manufacturer is sufficient to pique my interest. It all comes down to what interests the individual, doesn't it? If it didn't then, and I shudder at the thought, we may all possibly be driving VWs and collecting matchbox covers. "To each, his own", as the saying goes. > Distribution: -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/