I WANT NHRA DRAG SIMM !! WHERE IS IT ??

You know, it would be nice if Tantrum would actually update their website once in awhile! I thought company websites were supposed to keep customers updated about products. Their website still says the game will be released in April 1998! Hmmmmmm...maybe I SHOULD go buy Burnout! I was going to wait. >On Tue, 16 Jun 1998 21:59:02 -0700, "racerfan" >>I guess it will be 1999 before we see it huh ?? >You can see it.. If you look really hard it's just a bunch of little (non-moving) >pictures on several websites.. >BTW, given that it has no tachometer and only 8 adjustable settings >it doesn't quite qualify as a sim, but it probably has great graphics and sound. >-- >* rrevved at mindspring dot com >* s.p.u.t.u.m. unit.26 >* http://www.sputum.com

>You know, it would be nice if Tantrum would actually update their website >once in awhile! I thought company websites were supposed to keep customers >updated about products <SNIP!> This isnt just a Tantrum problem.... alot of developers and game-publishers are awfully slow to update their sites. Take for instance Sierra - over the last year or so they've updated their GPL "preview" once - and that "update" was **removing** some pictures and pages!! ??? They've still got the release date set to "Spring 98"! Papyrus and Sierrasports aint much better.. Papy have displayed a "GPL picture of the week" for some months now. AFAIK that page has been updated **3** times... now that makes 'em weeks kinda long - dos'nt it?? Sometimes I really wonder if these companies want to sell their titles or not. But on the other hand.... no updates could also mean that they are working like hell to finish the product on time and/or make the title as good as possible... :) Just my 2 cents.... Best, Edwin Solheim Check out The Paddock - a legendary site... for some cool Grand Prix Legends stuff and tips! (http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock)

> BTW, given that it has no tachometer and only 8 adjustable settings > it doesn't quite qualify as a sim, but it probably has great graphics and sound. From what I understand, the actual TF and Funny Cars don't use much in the way of gauges. Also, the reason for the lack of adjustments in NHRA is that actual TC and FC don't need 'em - akin to having a sim where you could change the gap on a set of plugs...neat, but uneccessary. Cheers! Marc -- Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com <remove '_*_' before replying>

quite qualify as a sim> As someone who has had the opportunity to actually drive a Top Fuel dragster, I can assure you that there is NO tachometer. The engine RPM is gathered off of the onboard computer and downloaded after every run. As far as adjustments go, I can think of only 6 or 8 adjustments that we have ever made on our Fuel car, and they are: Blower Boost Nitro % Spark (advance or retard) Clutch (base pressure, counter weight, primary & secondary timers) Angle Of Rear Wing Nose Weight (with ballasts and fuel) Minor Fuel Jetting Changes If Tantrum incorporates just these settings, with any type of realism, which are pretty much standard adjustments between runs, then you are talking out "professional sim racers" blasting this game and it's not even out yet. I believe you will find that getting a 6000 h.p. Top Fueler or Funny Car down the track with any consistency is quite a bit tougher than chasing each other around in circles. Greg

I agree on the instrumentation. I drove an A/FD in the days before on-board computers, and all we had was an oil pressure gauge. Shifting (Lenco 3-spd) was done by ear and by seat-of-the-pants feel. As for adjustments, all I can remember were: tire pressure, clutch preload, clutch centrifugal weights, spark advance, cam advance (rarely changed), injection main jet, and injection hi-speed bypass. The tires, clutch and injection settings were all we messed with between runs, and the clutch was probably most important. -- Doug Gordon (Remove "nospam." from e-mail address) >>BTW, given that it has no tachometer and only 8 adjustable settings it doesn't >quite qualify as a sim> >As someone who has had the opportunity to actually drive a Top Fuel dragster, I >can assure you that there is NO tachometer. The engine RPM is gathered off of >the onboard computer and downloaded after every run. As far as adjustments go, >I can think of only 6 or 8 adjustments that we have ever made on our Fuel car, >and they are: >Blower Boost >Nitro % >Spark (advance or retard) >Clutch (base pressure, counter weight, primary & secondary timers) >Angle Of Rear Wing >Nose Weight (with ballasts and fuel) >Minor Fuel Jetting Changes >If Tantrum incorporates just these settings, with any type of realism, which >are pretty much standard adjustments between runs, then you are talking out >"professional sim racers" blasting this game and it's not even out yet. I >believe you will find that getting a 6000 h.p. Top Fueler or Funny Car down the >track with any consistency is quite a bit tougher than chasing each other >around in circles. >Greg

Good info thank you!

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>Blower Boost >Nitro % >Spark (advance or retard) >Clutch (base pressure, counter weight, primary & secondary timers) >Angle Of Rear Wing >Nose Weight (with ballasts and fuel) >Minor Fuel Jetting Changes >If Tantrum incorporates just these settings, with any type of realism,

which >are pretty much standard adjustments between runs, then you are talking out >"professional sim racers" blasting this game and it's not even out yet. I That is pretty much it. People around here go by their expectations without understanding reality. I'll bet many people are shocked to find your information true. Since you are posting anonymously from an AOL account I guess someone should ask to prove you drove a TF car. Anyone can say so, and posting anonymously does not help prove your point. I agree to a point. Being consistant at 1/4 mile with a high powered dragster should not be easy. -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

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> >BTW, given that it has no tachometer and only 8 adjustable settings it doesn't > quite qualify as a sim> > As someone who has had the opportunity to actually drive a Top Fuel dragster, I > can assure you that there is NO tachometer. The engine RPM is gathered off of > the onboard computer and downloaded after every run. As far as adjustments go, > I can think of only 6 or 8 adjustments that we have ever made on our Fuel car, > and they are: > Blower Boost > Nitro % > Spark (advance or retard) > Clutch (base pressure, counter weight, primary & secondary timers) > Angle Of Rear Wing > Nose Weight (with ballasts and fuel) > Minor Fuel Jetting Changes > If Tantrum incorporates just these settings, with any type of realism, which > are pretty much standard adjustments between runs, then you are talking out > "professional sim racers" blasting this game and it's not even out yet. I > believe you will find that getting a 6000 h.p. Top Fueler or Funny Car down the > track with any consistency is quite a bit tougher than chasing each other > around in circles. > Greg

Greg, Excellent post, points well made :)!! Trev

<I find it kind of weird that when I watch NHRA on TV they almost rebuild the top half of the motor between runs.> First off, they don't "almost" rebuild anything. Between every run the engines of the higher budgeted teams are completely disassembled and in most cases completely rebuilt with new bearings, etc.. Depending on the teams finances, rods, pistons, and cranks are changed every 5 to 10 runs. Doing this has absolutely no effect on the performance of the vehicle, it's only done to ensure reliability, and attempt to prevent breakage. About the only part change between rounds that really makes a difference, is the blower. A freshly stripped blower will pump a higher volume of air, because the new teflon strips offer a better seal, which will create more boost......which makes more power. Yes, we've built many engines between runs......as described above, but I've never had my car run quicker because it had new bearings and spark plugs. You don't tweak a front wing. That will definitely get you in a position you don't want to be in. As I stated in my first post though, you do adjust the angle of the rear wing to add or subtract downforce, which from what I have heard, is incorporated into the NHRA sim. I also included this in my first post as something that is done....not routinely, but ballast weight is adjusted on occasion, it's mainly done to add or subtract weight on the nose of the car to prevent blowovers. I have heard that this is also incorporated into the game. Sorry, but unless you are running a nostalgia dragster, or just don't feel like qualifying, there are no *** gears. Today's fuel cars run direct drive 1to1 high gear boxes, with a 3.20 rear end gear ratio. I applaud your enthusiasm, and "hell" I'm sure you would probably do well at it. Save up your sim dollars and buy you a new McKinney or Plueger chassis and go funny car racing. That's all there is to it. Best of luck!!! :o) Greg Duffield (for those that feel I was trying to keep anonimity) TF #473

I did say build engines before runs I said build engine to get started adjust you fuel flow cam timing igtion timing valvle opens, baor and stroke etc.I know atleast Winston Cup teams do this between races and I would think NHRA drivers do aswell unless they are all made to runt he same motor week in week out. I wasn't talking about about rearend gears I was talking about *** gears,so all they run is a 1.00 *** gear they can't chabge between events?

Wrote the following: Is it just me, or does this guy make no sense at all?? I specifically said the fuel cars run a 1to1 high gear box...(which also has a reverser). Yes...all they run is a 1 to 1 (1.00) gear ratio that they don't change between events. They change the gear box, but they don't change the ratio. The way the clutch systems are regulated, does not create the need for a transmission with changeable gears. Generally a fuel car will leave the starting line with the clutch slipping fairly well, then + or - 2.8 seconds into the run (depending on track conditions) the clutch will lock up 1 to 1 with the engine for the remainder of the race. I guess when the clutch locks up it's almost like a gear change. It gets to be quite complicated, because if you aren't applying enough power off the starting line, and the track conditions are fairly good, you will get into what they call "tire shake". (The only way to describe this, would be like a 50 magnitude earthquake. It's so *** that you can't see anything at all but a blurr of light.) Then again, if you apply too much "clutch" off the starting line, you will smoke the tires. If you don't have enough downforce in the rear wing you will smoke the tires on the top end of a run. Everything plays together, and is interrelated. Getting the engines to run half decent is the easy part. Add enough nitro and the means to fire it all, and anyone can make alot of power. It's getting it to the ground and making it stick thats tricky. Just one more thing, I'm not here trying to blast anyone. I simply responded to a post that I felt was completely incorrect and based on mis-information. I rather like having these little debates, and there is nothing personal at all intended. Greg

I've heard that the NHRA game will actually simulate tire shake if you don't have your car setup right! I think the problem is that not many people actually know what's involved in the nitro classes. Most any car has more than enough horsepower to win the race, but the trick is getting it down the track. I can't wait until the Pro Stock version comes out! Tachometers and shifting...oh yeah! -Bill

Well I (for one) am glad you are contributing. It just goes to show how little the average simmer knows about this stuff. I've learned quite a bit already. -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

More commonly known as "wheel-hop." > It gets to be quite complicated, because if you aren't applying enough power > off the starting line, and the track conditions are fairly good, you will get > into what they call "tire shake". (The only way to describe this, would be > like a 50 magnitude earthquake. It's so *** that you can't see anything at > all but a blurr of light.) -- Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com <remove '_*_' before replying>

<More commonly known as "wheel-hop."> No, tire shake is nothing like wheel-hop. Nothing with less than about 1000 horsepower will ever experience anything like tire shake. Wheel-hop is when the suspension of the car allows the tire to actually lose the majority of it's contact with the ground. As this flexing back and forth continues the tire kind of skips along the ground, and causes a mild vibration in the car. Tire shake on the other hand, has been known to cause some drivers to suffer concussions and even lose conciousness!!! It's basically when the tire tries to grow and squat at the same time, it's a very strange phenomena. I don't even think a majority of the "big teams" know what it is exactly. It's something that is unbelievably *** no matter if you are running a 2000h.p. Pro-Mod, or a 6000 h.p. Fuel Car. When it happends you WILL know it, and it is NOTHING like wheel hop. Greg

It wasn't until 'after' I hit the send-button that I realized my mistake...This 'tire-shake' is certainly something I wouldn't want to go through (at least without a good dental plan<g>). Thanks for the clarification. Cheers! Marc

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> <More commonly known as "wheel-hop."> > No, tire shake is nothing like wheel-hop. Nothing with less than about 1000 > horsepower will ever experience anything like tire shake. Wheel-hop is when > the suspension of the car allows the tire to actually lose the majority of it's > contact with the ground. As this flexing back and forth continues the tire > kind of skips along the ground, and causes a mild vibration in the car. > Tire shake on the other hand, has been known to cause some drivers to suffer > concussions and even lose conciousness!!! It's basically when the tire tries > to grow and squat at the same time, it's a very strange phenomena. I don't > even think a majority of the "big teams" know what it is exactly. It's > something that is unbelievably *** no matter if you are running a 2000h.p. > Pro-Mod, or a 6000 h.p. Fuel Car. When it happends you WILL know it, and it is > NOTHING like wheel hop. > Greg

-- Marc J. Nelson Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com <remove '_*_' before replying>

>Wrote the following: >>I did say build engines before runs I said build engine to get started >>adjust you fuel flow cam timing igtion timing valvle opens, baor and stroke >>etc.I know atleast Winston Cup teams do this between races and I would think >>NHRA drivers do aswell unless they are all made to runt he same motor week >Is it just me, or does this guy make no sense at all?? My fault I wrote this early in the morning and had just woke up and had to leave for work and didn't proof read it.Basically what I am asking is can you build your own enigine in the game, I really hope so.Everyone keeps talking about changes between runs tahst fine,but I'm talking about making a car or setup whatever you like to call it from scratch.Which leads into changing the motor for different tracks and events and weather and elevation and so on.I'm not tring to bash anyone or the game I'm just searching for all the info I can get,since I was never really interested in Drag racing until I got Burnout and started tweaking to gain thousands of a second to beat the next guy. Ok I just didn't know if they could change the ratio to say like a 2 to 1 if they wanted to and I just wanted to be sure thanx for the info. I wasn't blasting anyone either I just wanted so info I apologize if it sound like a blast,thanx for all the info Greg you cleared alot up for me. GT86 BlackHole MotorSports http://www.ivga.com/bhmotorsports Pro Series Racing League http://home.earthlink.net/~garywin

Its closer, If you want screen shots head over to my web page. http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/mdunn4 Mike's Catch Can >I guess it will be 1999 before we see it huh ??

No problem. I really don't think the game will let you build different engine combinations, because it's based on the actual Fuel classes. Top Fuel and Funny Car are bascically cookie cutter classes in which everyone runs the same engine combinations. (the NHRA & IHRA rules are designed for this so that the class has uniformity and equality) If you think about it, it's pretty exciting knowning that your competitor has pretty close to the same combination you do, and it's your job to make sure you get it to the ground and drive good enough to beat him. Take Care, Greg

> Just one more thing, I'm not here trying to blast anyone. I simply responded > to a post that I felt was completely incorrect and based on mis-information. I > rather like having these little debates, and there is nothing personal at all > intended. > Greg Thank you so much for your insight!. I really enjoyed your lessons in NHRA mechanics. I am really interested in your opinion about this upcoming NHRA sim. Perhaps a review in this theater........? Thanx!, Harald

I don't understand then how a Top Fuel team can get so off with the combination then. I remember when Eddie Hill first started racing Top Fuel in 85 he wasn't having much success at all. He was about to quit and Gene Snow came over and gave Eddie some combinations that worked for him. If all the Top Fuel motors are so similar in the set up then how can a team end up so far off? Just wondering. I always thought there was alot to do with the fuel systems in a Top Fuel Engine.

There's not as much as you would think. Most of the tuning is in the clutch area. Now there are some fuel adjustments that are made, but 95% of getting a fuel car down the track is Clutch Clutch Clutch!!! Greg

Greg, not to argue some of the points you have made about what or what isn't done with an engine in preparation for a race but according to interviews in the new August issue Drag Racing Monthly or the old Super Stock and Drag Illustrated Roland Leong makes some interesting comments on what is required to run a nitro engine. It isn't quite as simplistic as you make it sound. Much preparation is done on baseline engine combinations before the car ever makes a run down the track. Yes the 8 basic changes that are in the game may cover 95% of what transpires but the developing of the HP isn't the old cookie cutter routine it used to be years ago when they couldn't get all the power to the track do to tire and chassis limitations. I think what Robert and others are saying is that they would have liked to have had the option of playing with different engine configs before racing at the track. Yes, the basic engine is based on a Chrysler hemi but surely you wouldn't suggest that the head porting or cam shaft selection would be the same in everybodies combination. To name but a few variables. These baselines would not be changed at the track but they sure would have spent plenty of time developing them before they got to the race. Pete

I will agree with you Pete.....there are a handful of teams that do extensive research and development with fuel systems, heads, cams, blowers, and even blocks. Primarily these are the teams that are extremely well financed.......and believe me, they do have some serious financial clout. Between the 32 fuel cars that normally qualify at an NHRA race (Top Fuel & Funny Car combined), I know of only 8-10 teams that really do alot of research and development on the components mentioned above. Generally a team will come out with something new, and if it works, within 4 or 5 races, almost everone will have it. So in that perspective it is somewhat of a cookie cutter class now days there's just more fuel and more ignition. Like I said in my earlier posts, anyone can make alot of power in a nitro engine, because almost all the latest fuel system, heads, cams, and blowers are available to the general public by the manufacturers themselves. Please don't get me wrong though, because I'm NOT saying that making alot of power is easy. But if you have all the components necessary, and a good working knowledge, then you will make plenty of power. Alot of teams that do R&D work in conjunction with Ignition, Blower, Fuel System, and Head manufacturers to develop better products. This means once they get it working right then it's available to anyone if you have enough money. So to put something like this in a game, you would have to have almost unlimited possiblities for cam, fuel, heads, blower, and ignition. I don't think they will ever make a game like that. Besides, if they do the game right, I think it will be hard enough for people just to get the car down the track........at least I hope it's that way. :o) Greg Advanced Computer Systems http://members.aol.com/adcompusys/index.html

Actually, the Top Fueler's all run pretty close to the same camshaft profile. Pro Stock cars and trucks on the other hand are always trying and looking for something new to get that few extra horses. I've seen camshafts for 4 of the top 16 Top Fuelers and they all run the same profile. I can't say what the other 12 or so run, but I would assume it's pretty close to the same also. KThibodeau