THRUSTMASTER PRO VS TSW STEERING WHEEL COMPARISON

Drivers: Here is my 2 cents on why I would buy a TSW!! First off in my opinion you have 3 choices when it comes to buying a wheel for your racing sim. Thrustmaster (low End), TSW (Middle/Upper), and ECCI (Out of Sight). I really doubt that anyone would ever wear out either the TSW or the ECCI, but I will assure if you purchase a THRUSTMASTER you should always buy 2. The TM PRO WHEEL that I have brakes both spring about every 60 days. So having the extra wheel is necessary if you are TM owner. Now 2 TM wheels cost about $300. Now you can buy a single basic TSW for the same $300.00. But with wheel purchase there is one other consideration. Its called 6 year Life Cycle Cost of the Product. With the TSW lets say you replace the pots each 2 year. So the 6 Year Life Cycle cost are: TSW - $300 purchase price and repair to factory and frieght 3 times at $30.00 a trip. Total cost of a TSW of 6 years is $390.00. Downtime is about 1.5 months!!! TM PRO - $150 purchase price and repair to factory and 6 times a year or 30 trips over 6 years at $30.00 a trip is $900.00. Total cost of the TM PRO Wheel is $1150.00. Downtime is 2 weeks downtime 6 times per year or 12 weeks a year times 6 years is 72 weeks travel time. So you are actually unable to race about 1.2 years. Summary TSW is $390.00 and $TM PRO is $1150 My Choice - Thomas Super Wheel. Trevor I hope my endor***t doesnt hurt your business!!! Don Wilshe, SHRA [link lost in import] PS. CH PRODUCTS is ok, but I dont like the throw on the pedals. How do you guys drive with those Pedals!!!!! PSS. I have a T2 and TM PRO WHEEL available cheap any takers!!!!!

Hi Don, Just a couple of comments regarding your above findings..... Firstly, i have had a Nascar Pro wheel for over 6 months and yes, the springs will break, but $30.00 dollars a trip to repair??? Thrustmaster will send out replacement springs free of charge and i can't see why i should have to send it back to the factory to get new springs put in, when i can do it myself in about 20 minutes... Also one doesn't have to be a mental giant to be able to change springs in a Thrustmaster wheel, so the intelligence factor of the owner does not come into account. So that leaves $150.00 for a TM Pro, with FREE replacement parts total = $150.00 for 6 years... Ok, i'll grant you down time might be slightly less with a TSW, but not enough to warrant the extra dollars spent... Down time of 12 weeks per year?? Either you are extraordinarily useless or are just too slack to bother fixing and maintaining your own steering wheel. I can see about 2 spring replacements a year, and a bit of normal maintenance which comes to about 40 minutes a year down time, and i save myself $150.00 dollars in the process. Don't get me wrong, i'm not knocking TSW, but not everyone can afford to spend the asking price of those, and dearer products. Thrustmaster, while maybe not up to everyone's standards, have developed and stood by a reasonable quality wheel, suited to a lot of people who can not justify the added expense of a TSW etc... Down here in Australia we are limited to what products are available, and Thrustmaster has always supported and stood by it's customers. To me, that's good enough reason to give them my support. Cheers and good racing, from a happy Thrustmaster customer. Ron Ayton

> Hi Don, > Just a couple of comments regarding your above > findings..... > Firstly, i have had a Nascar Pro wheel for over 6 months and yes, the > springs will break, but $30.00 dollars a trip to repair??? I am very impatient and why should i have to wait. I ship my wheelback fed ex overnight. I dont want to or should I have to wait any longer than I have to.. So why ship ground. Good Point though.. Another Good Point, But I cant put in the springs!!!! Guess that leaves me out. Im not that smart or mechanical.. I coulduse you to repair mine in my town!!!!! hehe He He .. Not for me.. But I agree for some others!!! 2 X realy isnt that much.. I am extraordinary useless I guess compared to you. Why should ihave to fix my own wheels. I bought a product that should work not somthing that I have to rebuild!!! I wish that was true. I have had to replace the springs 2 now in 4 monthsmaybe I drive more than you!!! Come on now.. Spoil yourself. You are talking about a $350.00wheel vs a $150.00. Extra $200.00 for something that you will use at least 1000 hours a year!! I think I am woth it!!! ok He He.. I guess if you are in australia you cant send the wheel back as the freight would be about $100 a trip.. hehe I am truely happy you love your TM. It just dont work for me,, Don Wilshe!!!

>Summary TSW is $390.00 and $TM PRO is $1150 I figure you would have to be a corrupt politician or some kind of expert on Sim car racing legends to come up with a comparision like this. $1150 haha. It just might. I'm about ready to dog him on this BS adverti***t :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

I dont know where you guys get the $150.00 price for TM Pro. I paid $99.00 at best buy. $30.00 instant rebate of the $129.00 price. Also... springs are easy to replace. 20 minutes max. The bungees in the wheel are much harder to replace. Helps to have an extra set of small hands around. I do agree with Don (god check the temperature in hell) =) That the TSW and ECCI are the class of the field. If you are a serious sim racer and want top quality.... no doubt about it the TSW is the only way to go... Unless of course you can go the extra $$ and get the ECCI (I know very little about this wheel other than reputation). Ive had my TM Pro since Christmas this past year and have had only to replace the gas pedal spring once. I did replace the original bungees with stronger ones which TM sent me free within 14 days. They seem to be much improved... as well as the new springs. The new springs have a better feel to them IMHO. So far they have held up fine... so time will tell on the improved durability. Scott PA-Scott

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>> Hi Don, >> Just a couple of comments regarding your above >> findings..... >> Firstly, i have had a Nascar Pro wheel for over 6 months and yes, >> the >> springs will break, but $30.00 dollars a trip to repair??? > I am very impatient and why should i have to wait. I ship my > wheelback fed ex overnight. I dont want to or should I have to wait > any longer than I have to.. So why ship ground. Good Point > though.. >> Thrustmaster will send out replacement springs free of charge and i >> can't see why i should have to send it back to the factory to get >> new >> springs put in, when i can do it myself in about 20 minutes... > Another Good Point, But I cant put in the springs!!!! >> Also one doesn't have to be a mental giant to be able to change >> springs >> in a Thrustmaster wheel, so the intelligence factor of the owner >> does >> not come into account. > Guess that leaves me out. Im not that smart or mechanical.. I > coulduse you to repair mine in my town!!!!! hehe >> So that leaves $150.00 for a TM Pro, with FREE replacement parts >> total >> = $150.00 for 6 years... > He He .. Not for me.. But I agree for some others!!! >> Ok, i'll grant you down time might be slightly less with a TSW, but >> not >> enough to warrant the extra dollars spent... > 2 X realy isnt that much.. >> Down time of 12 weeks per year?? Either you are extraordinarily >> useless or are just too slack to bother fixing and maintaining your >> own >> steering wheel. > I am extraordinary useless I guess compared to you. Why should ihave > to fix my own wheels. I bought a product that should work > not somthing that I have to rebuild!!! >> I can see about 2 spring replacements a year, and a bit of normal >> maintenance which comes to about 40 minutes a year down time, and i >> save myself $150.00 dollars in the process. > I wish that was true. I have had to replace the springs 2 now in 4 > monthsmaybe I drive more than you!!! >> Don't get me wrong, i'm not knocking TSW, but not everyone can >> afford >> to spend the asking price of those, and dearer products. > Come on now.. Spoil yourself. You are talking about a $350.00wheel vs > a $150.00. Extra $200.00 for something that you will use > at least 1000 hours a year!! I think I am woth it!!! >> Thrustmaster, while maybe not up to everyone's standards, have >> developed and stood by a reasonable quality wheel, suited to a lot >> of >> people who can not justify the added expense of a TSW etc... > ok >> Down here in Australia we are limited to what products are >> available, >> and Thrustmaster has always supported and stood by it's customers. >> To me, that's good enough reason to give them my support. >> Cheers and good racing, from a happy Thrustmaster customer. > He He.. I guess if you are in australia you cant send the wheel back > as > the freight would be about $100 a trip.. hehe > I am truely happy you love your TM. It just dont work for me,, > Don Wilshe!!! >> Ron Ayton

-- Scott B. Husted Marketing and Administrative Manager Riegel Federal Credit Union http://www.riegelfcu.org

Rev:

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> My ~2 year old T2 has never seen the factory since it left. I broke a spring a year > ago, got a free replacement from Thrustmaster in 4 days, and I was running > again. I then mounted a simple strip of wood to the back of the pedal unit and > limited the travel of the pedals, so I may never break another spring. > The original pots are in it and work jitter-free and fine. The steering has > remained fairly tight and it has been an excellent purchase. > $1150? Not hardly.

Hey, 6 years isnt up yet. But you can do that I cant .. You yes saveyour self alot of money. I cant repair. So guys like you have no problem. I do.. Why should i repair a product thats suppose to work. Don Wlshe

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> >Summary TSW is $390.00 and $TM PRO is $1150 > I figure you would have to be a corrupt politician or some > kind of expert on Sim car racing legends to come up with > a comparision like this. > $1150 haha.

You will have to agree that over a 6 year time period that you willhave to spend alot of time repairing and have down time. I am just telling you what I have experienced with my TM PRO. I have had the product 4 months and now have 4 broken springs Don Wilshe

Rev: > >Why should i repair a product thats suppose to work. > To save $1000 ? But I cant. And many many people cant.

Just buy TM F1's if $$$ are concerned. You can get them around $50 at the right times. I've seen them go for $30 at Comp USA once. I buy in fours so every dollar is important. I'd need $1200 on TSW wheels. I'm sure their fine but I make sure never to try them just so I don't get the itch for one. I've physically abused the F1's, I also drill a hole in the case so I can dab some lube on the steering pot from time to time to stop spiking some pots have. If the wheel gets loose you can tighten the bung cord up a bit if you like. I'm going on a couple years now and their still looking quite strong for another two at least. The hand grips have some benefits over foot pedals, and honestly I can't find a benefit that foot pedals have over hand grips. But I'm still trying to broaden my horizons... :) Hopefully we'll see a F1 with force feedback someday. QBM

R: Don you have to realize sometimes people get lemons. Yours must be a lemon. I'll definitely go on the record and state the many TM's are buggy from the get go. I deal with F1's and I've had to return 3 of them for various quality reasons. But once you get a good one they seems good for years. So to all readers make sure you have a perfectly working TM unit from the start otherwise return it for a replacement. QBM

R: Me either. I know some damn good sim racers using TM products and I always recommend to my clients the best price/perform. products each and every time. You would have to be a racing god before I'd recommend the TSW based on the price. Maybe somebody like Reggie White would get the nod since he'd probably snap the poor little wheel off the TM's. But Reggie White's are few and far between for me. QBM

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> >BTW, I am not knocking the very nice TSW wheel, just stating > >that there is a viable, lower cost alternative. > R: > Me either. I know some damn good sim racers using TM products and I always > recommend to my clients the best price/perform. products each and every > time. You would have to be a racing god before I'd recommend the TSW based > on the price. Maybe somebody like Reggie White would get the nod since he'd > probably snap the poor little wheel off the TM's. But Reggie White's are few > and far between for me. > QBM

What's the justification for buying a TSW then? Does it improve your lap times? Does it feel better? I suppose there's no substitute for actual skill though. Personally I've had no mechanical failures on my TM GP1, and I use it a lot. -- UK.

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>Rev: >> >Why should i repair a product thats suppose to work. >> To save $1000 ? >But I cant. And many many people cant.

OK Someone has to ask... Exactly why is it you cannot repair the TM wheel? Are you missing your arms or some- thing? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>You will have to agree that over a 6 year time period that you willhave to >spend alot of time repairing and have down time. I am I will agree that over a 6 year period, *YOU* will apparently have to spend alot of time repairing or whatever. I have had my T2 for almost 2 years. I broke one gas spring. That is it. I don't use the rig 8 hours a day or anything, but it gets probably 45% of my *** use. Flightsims are 50% and the rest of my other games are probably 5%. Fair enough. I would go with Rev's wooden block suggestion. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Greg Cisko wrote Hmmm, is Don making this because somebody named Trevor is now PlaytestOr for Burnout ?? (Tee Hee you know Don I'm joking, but still...) ;-) Btw I'm still searching the link on Bethesda's webpage about the e-mail you sent me (thanks also). - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Andrew Fielden wrote Its like buying a Mercedes compared to a Ford Escort. It gets you from point A to point B one or the other, but you know the difference between those 2 cars ;) Yes, easily by .2 secs by lap in Nascar2 And on the NROS .2 secs per lap is very BIG. Yes, it's smooth and slick. In racing simulations, here is what makes a good driver. (on the NROS per example), it's 50% the driver, 40% the setup, 5% the PC and 5% the wheel. lot. Your a lucky man, congratulations. But what is "alot" ?? Me it's now 100 000laps in Nascar2 only. I never counted World Circuit, Gp2, Icr2, SODA, GPLegends, F1RS, etc... - Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) - Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. - Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club - Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) - Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) - "People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I went shopping and bought 2 lemons both from Thrustmaster. Plus one has gone wrong in 3 different ways plus the springs on both are still fine on both. The first (TM GP1) has a flaky micro-switch on the brake (it can really hack you off when the brakes don't go off if you don't give them a hard flick) plus a bent table clamp***plus some dodgy connections in the moulded game port socket (meaning you have to fiddle for a while to get a perfect connection). The second (TM F1) 's metal shaft has worn the plastic mouldings. When I first got the F1 I was pleased as punch 'cos it was so smooth and my lap times went down by seconds, but now I realise that a racing wheel is going to get tons of stick (especially on rally sims and VR power boat) and what you need is a tough, hard-wearing device that you can hand out stick to. I mean would you put up with a new car when its steering wheel needed maintenance every two weeks? I dunno though we all put up with Windows 95!! Yup you can fix the wheel yourself but I would prefer to get the quality item. Anyone know where can you get a TSW in the UK?

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> >You will have to agree that over a 6 year time period that you willhave to > >spend alot of time repairing and have down time. I am > >just telling you what I have experienced with my TM PRO. I > >have had the product 4 months and now have 4 broken springs > >Don Wilshe > R: > Don you have to realize sometimes people get lemons. Yours must be a lemon. > I'll definitely go on the record and state the many TM's are buggy from the > get go. I deal with F1's and I've had to return 3 of them for various > quality reasons. But once you get a good one they seems good for years. So > to all readers make sure you have a perfectly working TM unit from the start > otherwise return it for a replacement. > QBM

>Hmmm, is Don making this because somebody named Trevor is now PlaytestOr for >Burnout ?? (Tee Hee you know Don I'm joking, but still...) ;-) That is how I see it. It is quite amazing how the worm turns isn't it? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

> Drivers: > Here is my 2 cents on why I would buy a TSW!! First off in my > opinion you have 3 choices when it comes to buying a wheel for No, isn't that cute? Two buddies helping each other out. Where do you find the time to do TWO marketing jobs? l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Now that's a great idea! My only problem with my T2 is the steering pot spiking a bit. A couple squirts of cleaner always fixes it. Now my T2 will last for another 2 years :-) Jason. > I've physically abused the F1's, I also drill a hole in the case so I can > dab some lube on the steering pot from time to time to stop spiking some > pots have. > The hand grips have some benefits over foot pedals, and honestly I can't > find a benefit that foot pedals have over hand grips. But I'm still trying > to broaden my horizons... :) I like foot pedals, they are realistic. (We all want our sims to be as realistic as possible. Why stop at the controller?) -- ----------------------- Jason Monds (Remove 'no extra spork' when replying)

% Rev: % > >Why should i repair a product thats suppose to work. % > % > To save $1000 ? % > % But I cant. And many many people cant. Many??? A few. Anyone with a screwdriver can replace the springs in the TM Pro series. If you have the dexterity to use the product you have the dexterity to make a simple spring swap. The T1's & T2's were a little more complicated to replace the springs, but not much. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Hi, I don't use springs from TM on my T2. I use straight springs instead of the circle shaped ones that came with the T2. I don't know the technical name for the springs in my wheel. (take a slinkey and stretch it out, they sort of look like that, only smaller!). I haven't had any problems since putting them in (knock on wood!). The only side effect is that the new springs make a little bit of noise when you press/release a pedal. Later, John

HIYA MICHAEL, Once again I ask why you think so highly of Thurstmaster plastic toys, most of us that can afford to spend $100.00 more for the TSW2 don't want to have to work on a toy like the TM I for one don't like to buy something and have to work on it after the first few days of buying it. I can't understand you at all do you work foe TM or what? God only knows I had Three of the TM's they are in the city dump where they belong. I don't believe in the TM like you don't believe in the TSW..... Sorry if I came on to forcibly, I have always looked up to you and enjoy your posts to this news group, but when you are to far off I have to step in this is one of those times. Bob Hawkins

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>% Rev: >% > >Why should i repair a product thats suppose to work. >% > >% > To save $1000 ? >% > >% But I cant. And many many people cant. >Many??? A few. Anyone with a screwdriver can replace the springs in >the TM Pro series. If you have the dexterity to use the product you >have the dexterity to make a simple spring swap. The T1's & T2's were a >little more complicated to replace the springs, but not much. >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

% HIYA MICHAEL, % Once again I ask why you think so highly of Thurstmaster plastic toys, % most of us that can afford to spend $100.00 more for the TSW2 don't want to % have to work on a toy like the TM I for one don't like to buy something and % have to work on it after the first few days of buying it. I can't understand % you at all do you work foe TM or what? God only knows I had Three of the % TM's they are in the city dump where they belong. I don't believe in the TM % like you don't believe in the TSW..... First of all I DO believe in the TSW. I have NEVER said one thing bad about their wheels. You must have me confused with someone else. I have never told anyone to get a Thrustmaster product if they indicated they could afford a TSW (or ECCI for that matter). As a matter of fact if I do answer a question about "what wheel do I buy" I have listed the full line along with URL's pointing to websites for each. I have also dug up URL's for reviews of these wheels for posters. I have one of the original "limited edition" T1's which got MANY a year of use and abuse. It went through a few springs and one rebuild of the yoke (all of which TM did for free way past the stated warranty). I now use a Thrustmaster NASCAR Pro and yes, guess what I busted some springs after a few months use (their re-designed springs are holding up much better). Maybe I'm just a tinkerer at heart and don't mind the fact that I was able to pocket $100-200 buying a TM product that needs occasional maintanence (cleaning pots -- at least they are not totally sealed so they can be cleaned instead of replaced every time they go flakey). For the money I saved, I have been able to stretch my "entertainment" budget for other things and enjoy the ***out of racing sim titles. There's nuttin' wrong with that, is there? If you were so unhappy with your TM products within "the first few days" I am sure that TM would have been happy to refund your money. I for one couldn't afford to waste my money on a product that didn't perform up to its claim. But, TM products do, and as long as Thrustmaster continues to support their products and their customers, I don't feel bad about mentioning their products when someone asks about what wheel they should get when they are on a tight budget. Besides, most of my posts to r.a.s. about TM products have only been to help people who have ran into trouble (sometimes just calibration problems or making it work with Win95 or a particular program -- along with how they can get parts when they do eventually break.) % Sorry if I came on to forcibly, I have always looked up to you and enjoy % your posts to this news group, but when you are to far off I have to step in % this is one of those times. % Bob Hawkins I'll just assume you got up on the wrong side of the bed today.... ;-) As my response to Don was only to set the record straight. I still stand by the fact that the majority of the people who can use a TM product can use a screwdriver to remove screws and replace them. Saying that, says nothing about the TSW, nor does it tell anyone not to buy a TSW (or even a Thrustmaster product for that matter). If you are on a tight budget folks, take a good look at Thrustmaster's products (GP1, T2 and the NASCAR Pro). [link lost in import] If you have $100-$200 more you can (or want to spend) take a real good look at Thomas Steering Wheel products. You can't go wrong (I have a real good buddy that swears by his! Honest!). http://soli.inav.net/~thomas/index.html [address restored] And if you just got the promised promotion or your wife didn't get everything in the divorce take a look at the ECCI line of products. [link lost in import] Or if ECCI doesn't do it for you check out Virtual Vehicles from Interactive I/O for their line of products. [link lost in import] And will I am plugging all of the wonderous controlling devices for you racing sim junkies, the following is only for the truly strung out junkie with a fat bankroll: Check out Hyper Simulator at [link lost in import] [and to you MadCatz and Per4mer and other wheel fans, feel free to plug your brand as well... I'm signing off now.... <G>] % >% Rev: % > % > % > % >% > >Why should i repair a product thats suppose to work. % >% > % >% > To save $1000 ? % >% > % > % >% But I cant. And many many people cant. % > % >Many??? A few. Anyone with a screwdriver can replace the springs in % >the TM Pro series. If you have the dexterity to use the product you % >have the dexterity to make a simple spring swap. The T1's & T2's were a % >little more complicated to replace the springs, but not much. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Yup you can fix the wheel yourself but I would prefer to get the quality item. > Anyone know where can you get a TSW in the UK? Paul, Trev is currently trying to find a UK distributor for the TSW. -- UK.