Programmer/Publisher group posts

Hello all, I currently use TOCA by Codemasters a lot and have great fun playing GP2. I am running the demo version of F1RS and CPR. Now, that should show my genuine interest in racing games/sims. I have been lurking in this group for quite a while and have posted a few times before. The group is really good, as there is a lot of help and support from everybody who knows. Lately there have been some threads regarding GP2/GP3 which included posts by a guy from Microprose, Mr Rich. Although there was some hostile reaction to his posts, I think it was about time that the folks who produce or publish our beloved games/sims get to reply to the posts in here. However due to the mentioned hostility on some of the replied posts and emails to mr Rich he has decided not to post here publicly anymore. I think it is a shame that we don't get the support people from the big companies to be active in here. On another note I think they can get some good input and client relations from being active here so it also pays for them to mingle with the clients so to say. Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of us. Now.... shoot me for bringing this up. I want to see where this goes. Harald.

I think this might be interresting.. Richard Hasselt "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." =================================================== My Homepage : http://over.to/rhasselt F1 Connections : http://over.to/f1connections Team Jordan Grandprix 2 Homepage : http://home.worldonline.nl/~barhorst/jordangp2.htm =================================================== Harald van Santen schreef:

That could be the most important function of this medium. But I think the developers would be much more valuable than customer service. Most (good) game pages have a CS forum. Plus I'd rather they built the game with simmers in mind, than have to try to explain why the car won't do this or that after it's already out. I wonder how much Sierra has changed the GPL package because of the world wide feedback they are getting in many different arenas? Good move on their part. -- mark "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm Remove us here and there to mail me. Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of us. Now.... shoot me for bringing this up. I want to see where this goes. Harald.

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> Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate > in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or > whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator > in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer > Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions > or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of > us.

I think the main reasons Mark Rich got flamed to a crisp were a) It was not obvious that he was a MPS rep, and b) if so, it wasn't immediately clear if he was speaking from a personal or company point of view. Therefore doubts were cast upon the veracity of his statements, and he was challenged. I personally was prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't see why support people shouldn't post in this ng, but I think it would help if they had more first hand technical knowledge of the product, so they could comment authoritatively on any questions asked - there are a lot of very knowledgeable people in this ng. It's clear there are people working in the industry who do post, but not from a company standpoint. However it would be good to get definitive answers from genuine support people on specific products. Anyway I assume that the big companies do monitor these newsgroups, but from the reaction that Mr. Rich got, who can blame them for not responding. -- UK.

<snip> % Wouldn't it be good to create a possibility for the companies to participate % in talks in here without them running the risk of being attacked flamed or % whatever? A possible solution might be to create a subgroup with a moderator % in which the big companies are represented each by their own Customer % Service department and open to anyone who has relevant and serious questions % or remarks concerning their products? i think it would be valuable to all of % us. % Now.... shoot me for bringing this up. I want to see where this goes. I sometimes wonder if even a well moderated forum would work for most reps from companies. We would have to have a well respected and trusted moderator. I for one wouldn't want the group moderated to the point that "legitimate" concerns weren't getting posted, because it was decided not to "upset" a particular company. Personally, I feel that many of the "reps" who have graced r.a.s. in the past and then "fled", don't have the foggiest clue as to what the world is like in Usenet land. Then again, I understand where they are coming from. 99.999% of them are loyal to the company they represent and thus feel that any "attack" on the company or their post is a personal attack. Then we have the "mob" and "feeding frenzy" syndrome that takes over. All of a sudden, we have a "real" representive and many just want to vent their built up frustrations (some real, some just concocted). This is when the whole process loses its constructive edge. Before we take the time and effort to pursue the possibility of creating a moderated newsgroup, we really need to find out if there are enough sim publishers who would even care to participate in a "protected" newsgroup. Or should we take the "Field of Dreams" approach (build it and they will come)? [aside to Jim Sokoloff: You are the closest thing we have to a company rep who still lurks about -- what is your take on this? Would there be enough genuine interest to make it worth pursuing?] I would say we could partially judge the possibilities of such a discussion group by the quality and quantity of responses to this thread. It's been discussed before over the years, but. . . -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I think a moderated newsgroup would make sim developers more likely to post. Although it could never be a substitute for r.a.s. I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make some point I never intended. But in more friendly forums like gpl.gamestats, I'm more likely to just pop up a quick message without editing my post a dozen times. The end result is that I post more often in the areas that are more relaxed. However, the bottom line is that this forum is read by many people at Papyrus, as well as other companies. Customer feedback does make it back to the developers, which is the most important thing in the end. Mike Lescault Papyrus

In that case Mike, could you guys put refreshment stands at all the tracks? I get mighty thirsty when I'm racing. -- mark "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm Remove us here and there to mail me. I think a moderated newsgroup would make sim developers more likely to post. Although it could never be a substitute for r.a.s. I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make some point I never intended. But in more friendly forums like gpl.gamestats, I'm more likely to just pop up a quick message without editing my post a dozen times. The end result is that I post more often in the areas that are more relaxed. However, the bottom line is that this forum is read by many people at Papyrus, as well as other companies. Customer feedback does make it back to the developers, which is the most important thing in the end. Mike Lescault Papyrus

Michael E. Carver heeft geschreven in bericht ... So the step to take now, is to ask sim/games companies if they are willing to "invest" rep time in this group, and then suggest we have a trial period in the existing group. If it turns out that even after a while it doesn't get to a workable situation for the reps, then we can try to set up a moderated group. Of course I'd also prefer to have an open group, btu it depends on wether we can all restrain ourselves and the fellow groupers to be offensive. Another option may be to ask the companies to set up Usenet groups instead of website forums etc., as it is easier and cheaper accesible for most people. Who has a list of e-mail addresses for the reps, so we can send them a request to visit? Harald.

% > Before we take the time and effort to pursue the possibility of creating % > a moderated newsgroup, we really need to find out if there are enough % > sim publishers who would even care to participate in a "protected" % > newsgroup. Or should we take the "Field of Dreams" approach (build it % > and they will come)? % I think a moderated newsgroup would make sim developers more likely to % post. Although it could never be a substitute for r.a.s. I agree nothing short of an invasion from outer-space will upstage r.a.s.!!!! Which I understand is going on at the present. <G> % I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I % say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make % some point I never intended. % But in more friendly forums like gpl.gamestats, I'm more likely to just % pop up a quick message without editing my post a dozen times. The end % result is that I post more often in the areas that are more relaxed. Very good point. It's nice to be able to have a conversation and feel free enough to just shoot from the hip without having to worry about being flamed alive. Unfortunately people "representing" a company have more to worry about that making a fool or roasting target of themselves. That's a luxury I have, but Mike Lescault doesn't. % However, the bottom line is that this forum is read by many people at % Papyrus, as well as other companies. Customer feedback does make it % back to the developers, which is the most important thing in the end. I think one of the things your core supporters don't "feel" is the opposite of the above. While you may indeed monitor r.a.s. and other forums, you don't dare speak up in an unmoderated forum, thus your customers feel removed from the developers. Which sometimes leads to the "vile" and abusive posts one sees when a rep dares show their face. Thanks, Mike, for putting your oar in.... -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Okay <deep breath>, here goes: I am currently working for Engineering Animation on TransAm Racing '68-'72. I've been lurking for some time now, initially watching for threads about our game but getting more and more caught up in the newsgroup in general. While I've been a casual Nascar player for a couple of years, I'll admit I had never checked out r.a.s. until after starting work on the game. Oh yeah, I'm currently at 1:12 in the Lotus in GPL... We've had discussions at work about participation in the newsgroup. Feelings have been mixed, with at best a cautionary attitude about being more involved. I should say that I am speaking for myself and not the company, at least for now. I'm actually doing the racecar dynamics programming and would love to spill my guts about what we're doing, but I'm not sure what the reaction would be upstairs or, probably more important, at GT Interactive. I would be up for attempting to get company backing, if you guys are interested in the involvement of a newcomer to this market. As for the game, I will only say that the public's perceptions of a game are heavily shaped by marketing prior to its release (or at least the release of a demo) and that there has been a LOT of emphasis on crashing in the hyping of this game. But I'm hesitant to get involved in any sort of long, drawn out defense because many people won't really believe me until they've played the game, right? And that's as it should be. In any case, anybody interested in the game might like to know that I've been developing real-time computer graphics hardware and software for training and simulation applications for almost 15 years, and that my business cards used to say "Sim Guy." I also happen to own a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang, the homologated street version of the car that won the TransAm Championship for Ford in 1970, at the hands of the great one, Parnelli Jones. So you can see I have more than a passing interest in the subject. I also realize that we are currently nobodies in this market and that, as far as most of you know, we could be just a flash-in-the-pan. All I can say is that proof will be in the pudding. Okay, I know I left my fire suit around here somewhere... Todd Heckel

Mike, thanks for joining in. It is good to see you folks do have some eye on this group after all. I didn't intend to replace r.a.s by the mentioned possibility for a new group, just an extension where it becomes possible to have a real contact with the companies, like yours. You show to be lurking, but as you mention in your post you have to be extremely careful in your way of posting, to such extend that posting very seldom happens. And when it happens there still is a big risk of being roasted and grilled by misquotations, flames, etcetera. That could be minimised if there would be good rules for a moderated group. But, as mentioned in an earlier post, perhaps it is better to first start some trial period in the existing group, and mobilise some of the reps of the game/sim publishers. Harald. PS I am still looking for e-mail maddresses for the companies, so we may alert them to this thread and ask them to participate in the group as it is.

Hi Todd, let me be one of the first to say "Welcome!" Since I have been a reader and participant of RAS for a few years now, allow me to humbly offer a few words of advice: Do not take flames personally. Do not attempt to answer *each and every* posting about TAR (is that our official abbrev?) Do not take flames personally. Model your appearance on the group after Papyrus' Mike Lescault, i.e. read everything but think, think, think before you post and never ever post in anger. Simply ignore flames and trolls. (Mike, I hope I represented your approach correctly.) Do not take flames personally. If you're interested in a case study of a company representative who could not take the heat, search dejanews for contributions by Dean "CART team" Lester. Do not take flames personally. Do not get overly defensive. If people voice legitimate concerns, try to fix the problem rather than explaining it away. The latter won't work here. Do not take flames personally. Last but not least, make a great sim that's easy to represent in this forum. :) Again, a hearty welcome! I'm sure I'm speaking for most regulars of the group when I say that we very much appreciate the presence of sim developers in RAS. P.S.: Could you please set the line length to approx. 70 characters? Makes for easier reading on sub 17" monitors.

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>Okay <deep breath>, here goes: >I am currently working for Engineering Animation on TransAm Racing '68-'72. >I've been lurking >for some time now, initially watching for threads about our game but getting >more and more caught >up in the newsgroup in general. While I've been a casual Nascar player for >a couple of years, I'll >admit I had never checked out r.a.s. until after starting work on the game. >Oh yeah, I'm currently >at 1:12 in the Lotus in GPL... >We've had discussions at work about participation in the newsgroup. >Feelings have been mixed, >with at best a cautionary attitude about being more involved. I should say >that I am speaking >for myself and not the company, at least for now. I'm actually doing the >racecar dynamics programming >and would love to spill my guts about what we're doing, but I'm not sure >what the reaction would be >upstairs or, probably more important, at GT Interactive. I would be up for >attempting to get company >backing, if you guys are interested in the involvement of a newcomer to this >market. >As for the game, I will only say that the public's perceptions of a game are >heavily shaped by marketing prior >to its release (or at least the release of a demo) and that there has been a >LOT of emphasis on crashing >in the hyping of this game. But I'm hesitant to get involved in any sort of >long, drawn out defense because >many people won't really believe me until they've played the game, right? >And that's as it should be. In any >case, anybody interested in the game might like to know that I've been >developing real-time computer graphics >hardware and software for training and simulation applications for almost 15 >years, and that my business cards >used to say "Sim Guy." I also happen to own a 1970 Boss 302 Mustang, the >homologated street version >of the car that won the TransAm Championship for Ford in 1970, at the hands >of the great one, Parnelli >Jones. So you can see I have more than a passing interest in the subject. >I also realize that we are currently nobodies in this market and that, as >far as most of you know, we >could be just a flash-in-the-pan. All I can say is that proof will be in >the pudding. Okay, I know I left >my fire suit around here somewhere... >Todd Heckel

-- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Welcome to the deep end, Todd :o) More power to you for leaping off the high board and may the force be with you and your work on TransAm Racing. I, for one, hope that it is a brilliant product. > Okay <deep breath>, here goes: -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

>>I find that when I post on r.a.s. I have to very carefully select what I >>say, lest it be twisted around and quoted over and over again to make >>some point I never intended. >>Mike Lescault >>Papyrus Fair enough Mike, but this is a public forum and if you are representing your company, then you must be prepared to defend both the good and bad aspects of your products. Sheer idiocy. Are you really suggesting, that we have a group where we be nice to developers and not give them a bollocking where it's clear they damn well need one? Moderated groups generally exist to avoid spam these days, off topic posts, or binary splurges. r.a.s is certainely not a group effected by any of these situations. A lot of people here seem to see developer prescense as a necessary thing. Well, it's o.k to have sure, but don't be worshiping people on these groups just because they work for Papyrus, Cendant, Microprose, Ubisoft or whatever. For one, they may be lowly tech-monkies- which says a lot about a company's interest in this group, clearly interest in there point of view is not really that great, is it. If a product or brand manager is interested, well then thats something to give a toss about. I work in the lesiure software industry as a product manager and i certainly am active on the groups which effect any products that i work on. I certainly suspect that more than a few people from the aforementioned companies are lurking here. To be honest i can't see any real gain to be had talking to these people on this newsgroup. Any info is going top be released via the main news sites anyway. It;s not going to be placed here. Z.

Welcome in the group Todd, It 's good to see that your company, even if you still are quite fresh to this business is willing to participate. I noticed the posting of Wolfgang already. I think he put it quite well, although I hope the risk for the flame is quite exaggerated. Let's hope we get some good talks on your product and you get the opportunity to show off your knowledge and product. Harald.

Zonker heeft geschreven in bericht >Sheer idiocy. Are you really suggesting, that we have a group where we be nice >to developers and not give them a bollocking where it's clear they damn well >need one? No I am not suggesting that, I am suggesting ot create an additional arena next to r.a.s where we all can benefit from the presence of the companies. At the moment their presence in r.a.s is minimal and when the reps speak they get in trouble more often than not. whatever. Nobody mentioned worshipping or treating them like something they're not. It may just be a good source of information. That is something that the companies can use to promote their quality and can be of benefit to us all. See above. So let's have them around. Those are the folks that may offer some input or may extract good info themselves from discussions on existing, upcoming or to be planned products. Also they may become involved in the discussion concerning editors etc. like in the case op GP2 where there is a lot of useful stuff around that never has been approved or supported by MPS. If they would support those products and the developers, it would be good even for their own product's life-cycle. I'm not sure about that. Once they get more comfortable it may be that they will mention developments, like the TAR developer who posted in here yesterday. I said before: That's still valid, and offers an opportunity for everybody to decide what their opinion on the best way forward is. Harald.

Here is a perfect example of two posts that could be of help to the sim developers. I disagree to some extent with what Richard says about the limit in CPR. *IF* you use the right setup, the car can be pushed quite successfully, with a great feel, to and beyond the limit. But. The setup is critical and hard to come by at first. Together, by having different experiences we are saying, that CPR will immediately discourage the seasoned sim racer, eventually discourage the not so seasoned sim racer and not have any ill effect at all on the sim junkie with too much time on his hands and a mild form of insanity. Very important testing results. It's possible that shifting the setup ranges could have fixed it. Too bad it's after the release of the game. I think the early release of GPL was a slick move. You can't buy feedback like r.a.s.. As Richard says, "If they had more sim racing experience (or real hotlappers on the beta test team)". Well we're free here. I'm more than happy to buy your product if I get something out of it. So if you let me dink with it, then let me know you're listening while I trash it, that's probably enough to convince me to buy it. You really don't need to answer posts for me. Just stick your head up once in a while. Let me get a clean shot. :-) -- mark "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm Remove us here and there to mail me. >Okay <deep breath>, here goes: Welcome Todd! We're a pretty demanding lot and sometimes get a bit carried away but most of us are actually pretty reasonable under the surface ;-) Along with Wolfgang's advice, I would also caution to just ignore any flames that don't contain any substance, no way can you win if you respond to them :( >I also realize that we are currently nobodies in this market and that, as >far as most of you know, we >could be just a flash-in-the-pan. All I can say is that proof will be in >the pudding. The main concern here would be that you might miss something that a more seasoned racing sim developer would have caught. An obvious example for me is TRI with CPR - they pronounced to the world how wonderful their physics were only for it to fall flat on the face when the cars were pushed to the limit. A really great feel to the physics though - provided you didn't really push it trying for hotlaps. If they had more sim racing experience (or real hotlappers on the beta test team) then this may have been picked up and corrected prior to the release. So beware of blind spots ;-) btw: if you need any beta testers, you could do far worse than contact some of the guys here! Cheers, Richard -- We all bump into each other every day of our lives, and we render our opinions whether we know anything or not, and if anybody catches us out we lie...

Thanks to Wolfgang and everyone else for the positive feedback and support. I'm still working on approval to get involved on an official basis, so these are still Todd Heckel's personal opinions. I agree that feedback from real users early in the process is invaluable. At E3 we learned a lot about the general public's perceptions (let's face it, they buy a lot of games) and just a little about the typical sim racer's (quite positive, I might add). Anyway, we're talking to the producer at GT tomorrow, we'll see where it goes from there. Todd >Hi Todd, >-- <snip> >Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. German >Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

Todd, Best of luck to you. I, for one, am looking forward to the release of TA Racing almost as much as GPL. I can't wait to get to the Ring in GPL, but I also cannot wait to finally get to race at Riverside! I worked as a flag marshall for many years at the track but never got to drive it in anger. It was a very sad day in my life when it closed for good, but now we can have a little of it back. Hope the boss lets you stay on with us! don "To race is to live, everything else is just waiting." - Rudi Caricciola

% Okay <deep breath>, here goes: <mucho snip> I am going to read between the lines and assume that "marketing" thinks we want a "destruction derby" simulation. Therefore they hype the "crash physics" and all of the mags running previews buys this lot and that's what we hear and read. However, buried deep in the programming vaults the real physics is "racing" not "crashing". Maybe marketing should be following r.a.s. as well?! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<G> >% Okay <deep breath>, here goes: ><mucho snip> >I am going to read between the lines and assume that "marketing" thinks >we want a "destruction derby" simulation. Therefore they hype the >"crash physics" and all of the mags running previews buys this lot and >that's what we hear and read. >However, buried deep in the programming vaults the real physics is >"racing" not "crashing". Maybe marketing should be following r.a.s. as >well?! >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=