F1RS Questions

I'm thinking of getting it, even though I already have GP2. I want to know: 1. Does it work well with a good joystick like GP2 does, or would I have to buy a damn steering wheel and pedals? I'm looking for complex adjustments for sensitivity, dead zones and so on. 2. Everyone raves about how good the physics model is. However, I read in an earlier post that someone thinks the cars handle like they are front-wheel drive! Can anyone expand on that? Do they understeer when you step on the gas or something? Thanxya!

> 2. Everyone raves about how good the physics model is. However, I >read in an earlier post that someone thinks the cars handle like they >are front-wheel drive! Can anyone expand on that? Do they understeer Just because "someone" makes a statement like that does not make it true. No one responded to it most likely because it is so far from the truth that it seemed like a troll. IMHO :-) Yes. The physics is very good. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Actually, I disagree. I think the cars do behave like fwd to a certain extent, because when the car is sliding, it does not want to turn at all. Try a wet race and you will see what I mean. You have to creep through some corners just to get it to turn in low grip situatuations. Other than that , it is awesome. It might be in the controller, I don't know, that is just my experience. Anyone know how to get that out of it, let me know.

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>> 2. Everyone raves about how good the physics model is. However, I >>read in an earlier post that someone thinks the cars handle like they >>are front-wheel drive! Can anyone expand on that? Do they understeer >Just because "someone" makes a statement like that does not make it >true. No one responded to it most likely because it is so far from the >truth that it seemed like a troll. IMHO :-) >>when you step on the gas or something? >Yes. The physics is very good. >-- >Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>I'm thinking of getting it, even though I already have GP2. I want to >know: > 1. Does it work well with a good joystick like GP2 does, or would >I have to buy a damn steering wheel and pedals? I'm looking for complex >adjustments for sensitivity, dead zones and so on. I use my CH F16 CS joystick, but I also use CH Pro pedals. I had a GP1 wheel, but actually prefer using the stick with all my driving sims. So, fine with stick. There is a sensitivity adjustment, but no dead zone adjustment (though I understand this can be done for win95 controllers with some utility out there). Understeer when stepping on the gas?? My real world racing experience is limited to one summer of auto-x. I'm in no way an expert. I'd say I find F1RS's driving model to be in the same league as GP2's. Not obviously better, not offensively worse. If you have a 3dfx card, I strongly recommend the game. I still have GP2, but I see no reason to fire it up now that I have F1RS.

Ditto...I removed CPR from my computer and use GP2 as a CART sim. Don

It works with a joystick, but there are no complex adjustments for dead zones, only a simple adjustment of sensitivity. I don't like the spinning model of F1RS, otherwise it seems to be quite ok, although a bit unresponsive. This has been mentioned a numerous times before, but something's wrong with the model when you can't spin 180 degrees with a simple press of the pedal on gear 1 and full steering. And you also can keep on spinning forever in place with the steering turned to the WRONG side when you for example go over a curb and start a spin there. GP2 models spinning much better IMHO. Driving over the grass does affect the car's handling for a couple of turns and straights. Also the sense of speed is great and the tracks are quite beautiful. But it is a very light sim compared to GPL demo (grand prix legends). Oh yeah, the user interface is totally horrible, I wonder who designed it. The menus are slow to appear and some of the menu gfx is small and confusing. Hmm another gripe is the lack of a 'real' external TV-camera setup. We get these flybys and floating cameras, but not something that you would see on your TV-set at home. The only advantage it has over GP2 is its graphics and that ghost-driver thingy where you can drive against your own fastest time. But you can't replay those laps, I wonder why, since they are usually your fastest times and I'd like to see a fast lap made by me from the TV :-) But still it is a good game and I'm sure you'll have fun with it, like I do, despite all these gripes. Aah, I almost forgot to mention the weather, which is quite good. You get foggy days and changing conditions during a race, which can be quite exciting. Buy it! -Juha --

>Because you have no feel it's easy to think you've got understeer for >other reasons, and increase the steering lock, but it's actually caused >by the driver applying too much lock in the first place. Oh no! Not this again :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>Actually, I disagree. I think the cars do behave like fwd to a certain >extent, because when the car is sliding, it does not want to turn at all. My guess would be that is why it is sliding. Wow :-) , Sounds realistic to me. What does this have to do with thinking F1RS is modeled like front wheel drive? -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes. >it is awesome. It might be in the controller, I don't know, that is just my >experience. Anyone know how to get that out of it, let me know. >>> 2. Everyone raves about how good the physics model is. However, I >>>read in an earlier post that someone thinks the cars handle like they >>>are front-wheel drive! Can anyone expand on that? Do they understeer >>Just because "someone" makes a statement like that does not make it >>true. No one responded to it most likely because it is so far from the >>truth that it seemed like a troll. IMHO :-) >>>when you step on the gas or something? >>Yes. The physics is very good. >>-- >>Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

I agree with you George. I can't do wet races at all because of that daft fwd feel. In the dry however, you don't notice it much. -- Spudgun

Both GP2 and F1RS suffer from canned spins. What we need is an F1 sim with the driving model based totally on real physics, like in GPL, rather than what the programmer thinks will happen when a racing car does this or that. -- Spudgun

I felt a little frustrated with F1RS when I first got it,but now I am quite pleased overall.The faster the computer I played it on ,the better it felt.I am now using a P2 300MHz and a Voodoo 2 and it even feels better than the same CPU with Voodoo 1. Correcting slides,feel ,response every aspect of control has improved with a faster machine.Even if you think your framerate is high,try turning down the detail a bit and see if it improves. It really helps is to work at your setups.The difference that even small changes make is dramatic,just as with real cars.You really do have to work at understanding car handling to get the best out of it. That's my opinion anyway, YMMV.

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>>Actually, I disagree. I think the cars do behave like fwd to a certain >>extent, because when the car is sliding, it does not want to turn at all. >>Try a wet race and you will see what I mean. You have to creep through some >>corners just to get it to turn in low grip situatuations. Other than that , >>it is awesome. It might be in the controller, I don't know, that is just my >>experience. Anyone know how to get that out of it, let me know. >I agree with you George. I can't do wet races at all because of that >daft fwd feel. In the dry however, you don't notice it much. >-- >Spudgun

Err, isn't that exactly what it should be doing? -- Suck The Goat

> I'm thinking of getting it, even though I already have GP2. I want to > know: > 1. Does it work well with a good joystick like GP2 does, or would > I have to buy a damn steering wheel and pedals? I'm looking for complex > adjustments for sensitivity, dead zones and so on. I use a CH Flightstick and it's... fine in the end. You need to patch it, update your dinput.dll for a smaller null zone and recalibrate until the damn things works... but it does in the end. They are definately not front wheel drive. Do they handle like a real F1 car? One would have to ask, which F1 car? -- Suck The Goat

Yeah, at least when comparing the hardware requirements. F1RS runs OK with my P120+Voodoo even when there is a computer car nearby (with full detail), but the GPL demo is incredibly sticky. Even with the minimal details it's like 10 fps, and when the wheel hits the grass the demo decides to take a five-minute coffee-break while the CPU is calculating all kinds of wheel-balance thingies and smoke direction goodies. Great sim, eh? Seriously, having just bought F1RS it first kinda dissapointed me although the graphics are great and the feeling of speed is there. I had some trouble finding a driving rhythm since the viewpoint from the ***pit is so low you can barely see the corners when you are smack dab in the middle of them. But a little creative fiddling around with the views helped me get a comfortable feeling of the corners, and now I would have to say it beats GP2. Not much, maybe 4-2 but beats it anyway. The negative thing I would have to say about F1RS is that after racing a couple of nights, I went back to ICR2 and noticed my lap times went up 3 seconds. Oh well, back to practicing Detroit :) - "If the meaning of life was printed in a book, someone would use it to keep the window open."

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> Actually, I disagree. I think the cars do behave like fwd to a certai > n > extent, because when the car is sliding, it does not want to turn at a > ll. > Try a wet race and you will see what I mean. You have to creep throug > h some > corners just to get it to turn in low grip situatuations. Other than > that , > it is awesome. It might be in the controller, I don't know, that is j > ust my > experience. Anyone know how to get that out of it,

Yes, its called understeer, set-up the car so that it doesn't understeer and this feature goes away? 8-) *Peter* 8-) (NB: remove asterix to e-mail)

> 1. Does it work well with a good joystick like GP2 does, or would >I have to buy a damn steering wheel and pedals? I'm looking for complex >adjustments for sensitivity, dead zones and so on. It's controller input is not great, IMO, as it rests upon the shaky foundations of Win95's DirectInput. Joe

My, my, I've started a huge thread! Thanks everyone! Let's see if I can keep it alive. Muahahahaha! My question was a little vague perhaps. A FWD car understeers more when the drive wheels are actually SPINNING. A rear wheel drive car will oversteer in the same situation. What does F1RS do?

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> I'm thinking of getting it, even though I already have GP2. I want to > know: > 1. Does it work well with a good joystick like GP2 does, or would > I have to buy a damn steering wheel and pedals? I'm looking for complex > adjustments for sensitivity, dead zones and so on. > 2. Everyone raves about how good the physics model is. However, I > read in an earlier post that someone thinks the cars handle like they > are front-wheel drive! Can anyone expand on that? Do they understeer > when you step on the gas or something? > Thanxya!

% Actually, I disagree. I think the cars do behave like fwd to a certain % extent, because when the car is sliding, it does not want to turn at all. % Try a wet race and you will see what I mean. You have to creep through some % corners just to get it to turn in low grip situatuations. Other than that , % it is awesome. It might be in the controller, I don't know, that is just my % experience. Anyone know how to get that out of it, let me know. I would think it would be the other way around. I have always found front-wheel driven cars to be over-sensitive to steering. Also, a car sliding is attributed to loss of grip. Therefore it should be extremely hard to get it to turn. Turning requires grip. Now if we are talking about a car on rails...... ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Yes that is true, turning requires grip. So how come the AI cars can turn in the wet and I cant? >% Actually, I disagree. I think the cars do behave like fwd to a certain >% extent, because when the car is sliding, it does not want to turn at all. >% Try a wet race and you will see what I mean. You have to creep through some >% corners just to get it to turn in low grip situatuations. Other than that , >% it is awesome. It might be in the controller, I don't know, that is just my

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>% experience. Anyone know how to get that out of it, let me know. >I would think it would be the other way around. I have always found >front-wheel driven cars to be over-sensitive to steering. >Also, a car sliding is attributed to loss of grip. Therefore it >should be extremely hard to get it to turn. Turning requires grip. >Now if we are talking about a car on rails...... ;-) >-- >**************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. >=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

< Snip > It's a sim. I enjoyed WC (The first version of GP2) with a stick and rudder pedals. I enjoy later race sims a lot more with a TM T1 wheel. I like F1RS even more with an ECCI, wheel. These are simulations of a vehicle that is controlled with wheels, gear shift buttons on these wheels, and pedals. If you want to use a stick, go for it. Some like it, some don't. It's different from GP2. I find it drives like real cars. But my experience is with road cars. Those who don't like it feel it doesn't drive like F1 cars. I suspect many don't like it because it doesn't drive like GP2. I don't know how a real F1 car drives. But I love to drive fast on back roads, and F1RS captures that pretty well. On tracks where my favorite sport is contested. Get it from a store that will let you return it. Give it a try. Larry

I'm the guy that said it handles like a front wheel drive car. That's not entirely true. First let me say that the game is excellent. There are a lot of problems with it and it still gets more time from me than any other game on my PC. I can't answer the Joystick question but I will try to tell you what I mean about the physics. Yes the F1RS car pushes heavily. Yes the steering angle is hard to judge *at first*. Yes the setup adjustments are very good. But when you adjust something in the setup and get results on the track, it does not mean the physics are good. It just means the game is consistent. Notice the name of the game is 'Racing Simulation', not 'Driving Simulation'. That's exactly what it is and isn't. The tire wear and fuel loads - strategy is key, and fun. But the weight of the car in transition suffers greatly. I have a racing kart and I can tell you from my own experience and my ability to visibly judge the similarities of events, that when watch racing karts and F1 cars at the turn in phase, they are very much alike. This is one of the most distinct characteristics of the F1 car. In GP2 the car turns in like a kart. Actually, in GP2 the handling of the car is very much like a kart. I know that the aerodynamic differences of the two vehicles will make a huge difference but the F1RS turn in phase still lacks agility. When driving a kart or other type of vehicle, the absolute weight at any given corner at any given time will dictate where that physical body goes. In a kart it is quite ***, two extra ounces on any corner will change your direction. Two pounds in the wrong place and it's over. Period. I have a feeling that F1 cars are like that. The F1RS car is very sluggish. There is something wrong with the way the car loads, making it very hard to drift, turn in quickly, oversteer in mid corner, and it generally ignores most attempts at real world maneuvers. When it gets away from you, forget it. It is very unrealistic. In the rain is where it handles the most realistically. More like a street car I would suppose, but still the mid corner drift characteristics are better. (For those of you who are going too slow in a push through the corner, might I suggest a little throttle at the apex to bring the rear end around? You can really increase your cornering speed that way. The same technique works in the dry but is more delicate because of the added grip.) Over all, if you want a driving sim the best bets out right now are CPR and the GPL demo. But F1RS is just as fun. -- mark "A lot of people think racing is about going fast. But it's not. It's about going just slow enough to stay on the track." F1RS - http://www.nmia.com/~chaser/car/results.htm Remove us here and there to mail me. I'm thinking of getting it, even though I already have GP2. I want to know: 1. Does it work well with a good joystick like GP2 does, or would I have to buy a damn steering wheel and pedals? I'm looking for complex adjustments for sensitivity, dead zones and so on. 2. Everyone raves about how good the physics model is. However, I read in an earlier post that someone thinks the cars handle like they are front-wheel drive! Can anyone expand on that? Do they understeer when you step on the gas or something? Thanxya!

Setup. Add wing, lower your gear ratio's and put on a set of smelly wellies. -- Suck The Goat

Duh!, I think I tried that one! >> Yes that is true, turning requires grip. So how come the AI cars can turn

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>> in the wet and I cant? >Setup. Add wing, lower your gear ratio's and put on a set of smelly >wellies. >-- >Suck The Goat

I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've tried and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty impossible. Stanley Chan

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> > Yes that is true, turning requires grip. So how come the AI cars > can turn > > in the wet and I cant? > Setup. Add wing, lower your gear ratio's and put on a set of smelly > wellies. > -- > Suck The Goat

In which case, practice, practice, practice. You can hear well enough when the wheels pass the slip angle, the angle where they lose all grip. I have to say that the first wet races I did at Spa and later at Canada I found it difficult to keep up with the opposition, but some setup work and a little practice soon put me back up the orders. -- Suck The Goat

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> I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you > drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've tried > and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be > off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if > anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty > impossible. > Stanley Chan

*Cough* Now do you understand why only a few drivers win wet races? Senna, Schumacher, etc. You have to be wheel perfect 100% of the time. Ross Stonefeld

>I don't like the spinning model of F1RS, otherwise it seems to be quite >ok, although a bit unresponsive. This has been mentioned a numerous times >before, but something's wrong with the model when you can't spin 180 degrees >with a simple press of the pedal on gear 1 and full steering. And you also How come I can do that in F1RS?

>I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you >drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've tried >and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be >off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if >anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty >impossible. I think it would be pretty impossible for most of us in real life too.

The first time I played F1RS I couldn't control the car so the model must have been wrong :-), but strangely, the more I play it the easier it to drive. I'm sure someone from Ubisoft is sneaking into my house and replacing the exe with one with a better model while I'm sleeping. How else can I explain the fact that the car is getting easier to drive :-) Jeff

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> > >I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you > > >drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've tried > > >and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be > > >off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if > > >anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty > > >impossible. > Yea...right! > _YOU_ can't do it, so the modelling must be wrong! > Self confidence must be a great thing, or is it arrogance? > R.

>>I don't like the spinning model of F1RS, otherwise it seems to be quite >>ok, although a bit unresponsive. This has been mentioned a numerous times >>before, but something's wrong with the model when you can't spin 180 degrees >>with a simple press of the pedal on gear 1 and full steering. And you also >How come I can do that in F1RS? Well if you can do it like this, then there's something wrong with my setup: Turn the wheel fully left or right and floor the gas pedal for one second, the car's rear end quickly flips 180 degrees, it should go around REAL quickly. What happens to me is that I have to press the gas pedal for a much longer time and the car gets into that halfspin very slowly. Like someone said, the spins in F1RS and GP2 are canned. Try GPL for a closer to reality spin- experience :-) (or a real car with enough horsepower, ofcoz) -Juha --

It is possible to outqual the AI, in the wet, in expert with no help. The top F1RS online drivers do it each week, though not by the 3 or 4 secs we outqual them in the dry. Keep practising! You'll get there eventually. -- Neil Charlton http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/ ICQ 7797673 -- >I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you >drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've tried >and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be >off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if >anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty >impossible. >Stanley Chan

Neil, can you do it on all tracks, or does the CC's performance vary from track to track? According to the championship table the top drivers are you, Greg and Fabrice :o). Do all of you outqual the CC's? /Christer, will not keep practicing in F1RS, but in GPL :o)

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> It is possible to outqual the AI, in the wet, in expert with no help. > The top F1RS online drivers do it each week, though not by the 3 or 4 > secs we outqual them in the dry. Keep practising! You'll get there > eventually. > -- > Neil Charlton > http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/ > ICQ 7797673 > -- > >I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you > >drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've tried > >and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be > >off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if > >anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty > >impossible. > >Stanley Chan

And then in the race ... ??? Can you guys keep up consistently enough? Stanley

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> It is possible to outqual the AI, in the wet, in expert with no help. > The top F1RS online drivers do it each week, though not by the 3 or 4 > secs we outqual them in the dry. Keep practising! You'll get there > eventually. > -- > Neil Charlton > http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/ > ICQ 7797673 > -- > >I don't that the modelling of F1RS in the wet is good in that if you > >drive with no aids, you'll never be competitive in the wet. I've > tried > >and tried, but have come to the conclusion that the modelling must be > >off. It's pretty OK with the traction helps, but do let me know if > >anybody can win a pro race with no helps. I reckon it's pretty > >impossible. > >Stanley Chan

Hey Christer - long time no see! How's GPL going (1.06s yet)? Since the league went down, I haven't done any wet races. In the first one of the year, I was about 1.5s off the pace. Since then, I can get pole on the others we raced but only by between 0.001 and 1.0s! I know Fabrice is even faster in the wet and Greg is perhaps not as fast but consistent. Corner speed is the real problem - getting a usable setup takes loads of practice - on the slower turns if your back wheels are in line with the fronts you're probably doing something wrong ;-) It's not easy but it can be done - I'd like to see Sven do some wet laps - he'd be awesome. P.S. Come back to kali - you were always one of the fastest and fun to race. Regards -- -- Neil Charlton http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/ ICQ 7797673 -- >Neil, can you do it on all tracks, or does the CC's performance vary from track >to track? According to the championship table the top drivers are you, Greg and >Fabrice :o). Do all of you outqual the CC's? >/Christer, will not keep practicing in F1RS, but in GPL :o) >> It is possible to outqual the AI, in the wet, in expert with no help. >> The top F1RS online drivers do it each week, though not by the 3 or 4 >> secs we outqual them in the dry. Keep practising! You'll get there >> eventually. [snip]

It's easier in the race - humans are more aggressive. The secret, just as in 100% online races, is no mistakes (obvious I guess). You can race 1hr40mins with only minor mistakes but everything needs to be just right. -- -- Neil Charlton http://www.charlt.demon.co.uk/ ICQ 7797673 -- >And then in the race ... ??? Can you guys keep up consistently enough? >Stanley [snip]