If not 3DFX, what?

> > A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't > >a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D. I'm going with a Matrox MGA G200 AGP card when they ship in July. -Surfer -- Phil "Surfer" Worthen VMFA-333 Tres Equis / 510th TFW --------------------- "If you're not having fun...you're doing something wrong"

Hi Sim Folks: I love my Pure 3D (Voodoo 1). I always use my 3DFX in native mode, and can find all the titles I want that support it. A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D. I don't know why my friend doesn't want 3DFX. I assume it has as good a D3D driver as anyone's, right? I gave my opinion and dropped it. I'm not the sort to try to talk people into something they don't want. So, what card would you recommend? He is interested in the ATI Rage, or Rage Pro, or Rage something. Anybody have any opinions on this unit? Thanks Larry

Yes, 3dfx will do D3D... Direct 3D is only a software driver included with directX by microsoft, it's ok, but 3dfx is the shit. I have a Stingray 128/3D 3dFX card, and can run games in 3dfx, which is second to none, for the games that support it, for those that dont I run D3D. . . . . . http://www.triton.net/junfan/ ICQ 1796276 "It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger, or you'll miss all that heavenly glory." Bruce Lee (Lee Jun Fan)

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>Hi Sim Folks: > I love my Pure 3D (Voodoo 1). > I always use my 3DFX in native mode, and can find all the >titles I want that support it. > A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't >a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D. > I don't know why my friend doesn't want 3DFX. I assume it >has as good a D3D driver as anyone's, right? > I gave my opinion and dropped it. I'm not the sort to try >to talk people into something they don't want. So, what card >would you recommend? > He is interested in the ATI Rage, or Rage Pro, or Rage >something. Anybody have any opinions on this unit? > Thanks > Larry

> I gave my opinion and dropped it. I'm not the sort to try >to talk people into something they don't want. So, what card >would you recommend? 3dfx. Voodoo2 :-) This is a loser. Forget the rage. 3dfx will support everything the rage will plus Direct3D. And for rendition owners? I don't see many rendition ONLY titles. But there are certainly 3dfx only titles. Be a good buddy and print out all these replies and show your friend :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

> Yes, 3dfx will do D3D... Direct 3D is only a software driver included with > directX by microsoft, it's ok, but 3dfx is the shit. I have a Stingray > 128/3D 3dFX card, and can run games in 3dfx, which is second to none, for > the games that support it, for those that dont I run D3D. Thanks Jason: I understand what you are saying. And I agree. But he just doesn't want a 3DFX. To the best of my knowledge, he has never seen either the flight-sim, or autos.sim newsgroups. But someone, probably a computer salesman, put a bug in his ear that 3DFX isn't what he wants. You can hold him while I try to beat some sense into him. But short of that, it's just not going to happen. So, what is the best alternative. I guess he's looking for the best D3D performance. Right now he's leaning toward the ATI Rage line. On a separate note, out of curiosity. How do the Voodoo and Voodoo 2 compare to other cards when running D3D? It reminds me of a joke. What's the difference between a used car salesman and a computer salesman? The used car salesman knows when he's lying. Thanks Larry

> You can hold him while I try to beat some sense into him. >But short of that, it's just not going to happen. I think you can probably find a few thousand netters who will assist you :-) Bad choice. The card is infamous now for tweaking their drivers to score better on the overused/overquoted 3D Winbench score while performance in actual games got worse! I've been out of it for a bit as I've been happy with my Canopus Pure3D (Voodoo). But last I checked about 2 months back, I suggest... Any based on the Riva128 (Diamond Viper 330, STB Lightspeed 128). The STB is now on sale at CompUSA for $100 after mail-in rebates. Usually quoted as the fastest. Any based on the Rendition Verite 2100 or 2200 (Diamond Stealth 220, Hercules Thriller). Especially good on slower systems (<P233MMX?), where the CPU is the bottleneck instead of the 3D card). On faster systems, this card becomes the bottleneck. Now there are newer cards based on the "Intel" 740 that are supposed to be decent D3D cards and inexpensive(?). There are to be new updates of the Riva128, one called the Riva128ZX (is it out?), and a future one that is also supposed to be possibly in Voodoo2 territory. Also ATI(?) and Matrox are supposed to be working on next gen chips to compete with the Voodoo2. But why wait? Voodoo used to be the best, but now there are a bunch of cards with similar performance, some a bit better provided one has a fast enough CPU for the Voodoo to become the bottleneck (usually cited as a PII but I don't think there is a firm number on this). I"m not sure if the Voodoo2 puts it back on top in D3D.

I am a computer salesman, and 3DFx is the best!!! 3D accelerator out there. If he has a decent 2D card, this is the best way to go for him. He will have support for the 3 biggest API's out there. D3D, Open GL and Glide(3Dfx's proprietary API). Everything that comes down the pipe will run on it. I love my 3Dfx and can wholeheartedly recommend it to anyone. Have him call me 1(800)677-9781 ext 339 Russ >> Yes, 3dfx will do D3D... Direct 3D is only a software driver included with

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>> directX by microsoft, it's ok, but 3dfx is the shit. I have a Stingray >> 128/3D 3dFX card, and can run games in 3dfx, which is second to none, for >> the games that support it, for those that dont I run D3D. >Thanks Jason: > I understand what you are saying. And I agree. But he >just doesn't want a 3DFX. > To the best of my knowledge, he has never seen either the >flight-sim, or autos.sim newsgroups. But someone, probably a >computer salesman, put a bug in his ear that 3DFX isn't what >he wants. > You can hold him while I try to beat some sense into him. >But short of that, it's just not going to happen. > So, what is the best alternative. I guess he's looking for >the best D3D performance. Right now he's leaning toward the >ATI Rage line. > On a separate note, out of curiosity. How do the Voodoo >and Voodoo 2 compare to other cards when running D3D? > It reminds me of a joke. What's the difference between a >used car salesman and a computer salesman? The used car >salesman knows when he's lying. > Thanks > Larry

On Mon, 25 May 1998 07:27:54 -0700, Laurence Lindstrom > I understand what you are saying. And I agree. But he >just doesn't want a 3DFX. > To the best of my knowledge, he has never seen either the >flight-sim, or autos.sim newsgroups. But you're posting to them. And when it comes to 3D simulations, there is no sane alternative to 3Dfx. Any other suggestion would be stupid, and it's unfair to ask us to make a stupid suggestion. That's a reason? New friends? The nVidia Riva 128 offers good Direct3D performance, but a Direct3D-only card is not going to help you much with the majority of flight sims and racing games. If I was buying a card only for D3D, that's what I'd get. But it wouldn't matter, because I'd shoot myself shortly thereafter, having proven conclusively that my mind was gone, since "buying a card only for D3D" is right there in the dictionary as a definition of "certifiably insane." RichC *-------------To Reply via E-Mail-------------* Remove SPAMTRAP from the return address *---------------------------------------------*

Laurence Lindstrom heeft geschreven in bericht I am using a ATI Rage Pro, and I must say it's working mighty fine. Great stability and good 3D. I have understood that Glide may give even better results, but I am very happy with my setup. Harald

I don't want to spur this thread, its going just fine. But of course, I meant no offense with that joke. I'm sure to you it's an old one. An e-mail expressed that it's too close to being true. Because I am posting again, thanks to everyone, keep 'em coming. E-mail is fine. This isn't a bullshit troll. All messages, except this one, will be presented to my friend. To RichC. Thanks, that's VERY good advice. But everybody has their faults. I will keep him as a friend. But until he sees the light, becomes a true believer, ONE WITH THE ONLY TRUTH, I'll keep an eye on him. If I decide to have him committed, you will be called to testify. Don't worry. I think I can compensate you for $10.00 a day. Oh, and special thanks to Harald van Santen. Brave post! I hope you aren't mail-bombed. : ) Larry

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> Hi Sim Folks: > I love my Pure 3D (Voodoo 1). > I always use my 3DFX in native mode, and can find all the > titles I want that support it. > A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't > a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D.

A rule of thumb that is as old as S-100 bus micros: Find the software you want, then buy the hardware that runs it. If the titles your friend is interested in are all D3D, then he'll be safe with a Rage. I think he'll find that many more sims support 3Dfx only, or 3Dfx with D3D as an afterthought. A Voodoo 1 or 2 board will support both. I've been running a Pure 3D board alongside a Screamin' 3D (Rendition) for about a half-year now, and I'm happy with its performance. And I've yet to wonder if the 3D sim I want to play is supported. Best, Rick

That computer-salesman should be taken out and shot ! -- Greetings, Steven "Hellfire" Rodenburg (just remove " nospam- " for my real adress) >> Yes, 3dfx will do D3D... Direct 3D is only a software driver included with >> directX by microsoft, it's ok, but 3dfx is the shit. I have a Stingray >> 128/3D 3dFX card, and can run games in 3dfx, which is second to none, for >> the games that support it, for those that dont I run D3D. >Thanks Jason: > I understand what you are saying. And I agree. But he >just doesn't want a 3DFX. > To the best of my knowledge, he has never seen either the >flight-sim, or autos.sim newsgroups. But someone, probably a >computer salesman, put a bug in his ear that 3DFX isn't what >he wants. > You can hold him while I try to beat some sense into him. >But short of that, it's just not going to happen. > So, what is the best alternative. I guess he's looking for >the best D3D performance. Right now he's leaning toward the >ATI Rage line. > On a separate note, out of curiosity. How do the Voodoo >and Voodoo 2 compare to other cards when running D3D? > It reminds me of a joke. What's the difference between a >used car salesman and a computer salesman? The used car >salesman knows when he's lying. > Thanks > Larry

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> Laurence Lindstrom heeft geschreven in bericht > > He is interested in the ATI Rage, or Rage Pro, or Rage > >something. Anybody have any opinions on this unit? > I am using a ATI Rage Pro, and I must say it's working mighty fine. Great > stability and good 3D. I have understood that Glide may give even better > results, but I am very happy with my setup.

A few frames more per second is not the major issue anymore, it's the current and future game support, that makes 3Dfx the ONLY choice for gamers. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't >a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D. Simple. Tell him no 3Dfx, no GPL. And no 3Dfx, no F1RS. (He gets D3D anyway when buying a 3Dfx card.) Bye, Leo

> A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't >a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D. > I don't know why my friend doesn't want 3DFX. I assume it >has as good a D3D driver as anyone's, right? I used to have a first-generation Rendition card for 3D, I used to be "pro-D3D" and "anti-3Dfx". I used to defend my 3D card on the occasional and pointless D3D arguments that crop up here from time to time and I really truly believed I was right. I think you should try to extrapolate your friend's reasons for NOT choosing 3Dfx. Don't try to convince him to buy it, just try to find why; what he read, heard, saw that turned him off. If he was mis-informed somehwere along the way about 3Dfx, then you can work on that. If he's relying on a strictly "green eggs and ham" argument (I don't like it because I've never tried it); then there's nothing you can do. You've made your best reccomendation, drop it and move on. Let your friend figure it out the hard way. (As I did) I just can't reccomend anything else for a video card for 3D-enhanced *** that isn't a 3Dfx card. Anything else would be a compromise.

Hi, Glide is 3Dfx's native support library. It's a driver (library) that comunicates with 3Dfx cards only. I doubt you could get any use of it. regards, Tadej Krevh

I was happy with my Rage Pro but now that they've got OpenGL hardware drivers for it I'm *really* happy with it. Colin

On Mon, 25 May 1998 01:55:41 -0700, Laurence Lindstrom > A friend of mine just seems to want something that isn't >a 3DFX, he keeps talking about D3D. Ask him WHAT does he plan to run first. If he wants to run games, 3DFX is STILL his best bet. Just show him all the 3DFX-ONLY games and let him drool. ;-) =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= PDOXWIN, Star Trek, Computer Games, Science Fiction, Writing, && more --------------------------------------------------------------------- Commercial use of this e-mail address implies your consent to pay me amounts of up to US$100.00 per e-mail message from you received by me.

On 26 May 1998 16:01:23 GMT, "Colin Constant"

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>> > He is interested in the ATI Rage, or Rage Pro, or Rage >> >something. Anybody have any opinions on this unit? >> I am using a ATI Rage Pro, and I must say it's working mighty fine. Great >> stability and good 3D. I have understood that Glide may give even better >> results, but I am very happy with my setup. >> Harald >I was happy with my Rage Pro but now that they've got OpenGL hardware >drivers for it I'm *really* happy with it.

Exactly which flight sims or racing games does this OpenGL support allow you to play, that you're so happy with it? RichC *-------------To Reply via E-Mail-------------* Remove SPAMTRAP from the return address *---------------------------------------------*

Anyone that gives you bullshit advice about being "certifiably insane" for by a direct 3D card has obviously failed to take into any consideration the future when 3Dfx Ltd. no longer has the fastest chip. i.e. when S3, or oak (shit that already exited the graphics business) have a chip which is nine times faster than the Voodoo2 you'll be pissed (this is a joke okay). The long-term compatibility issues which are associated with having a nonstandard API which only one graphics card manufacturer uses. (I.e. an orphan the sooner glide dies the better as far as I'm concerned.) When I can play any game on any 3D card I will be happy, and hopefully I will not be sorry because I failed to purchase a particular companies chip. Game developers are mostly to blame, but of course they are getting a kick back from 3Dfx in their developer program. So you can hardly criticized them for not taking advantage of this obviously lucrative financial arrangement. 3Dfx gets 3Dfx only games, game developers get monetary assistance for their development costs for a glide version. Anyhow I'm sure that if 3Dfx were to continue and managed to establish a market *** similar to Microsoft and Intel. (Which they won't, as every other graphics player in the market will be competitive) At any case 3Dfx is only a high-end neesh market, I wonder what sort of percentage they have of the overall graphics business. It is going to be difficult times ahead for them as they emerge into the mainstream 2d /3D business and are competing for the same market as the current mainstream players. I believe hard core gamers only account for about one percent of the overall game market. (I read the somewhere it's probably wrong) You know what the great thing is about standards (i.e. Direct 3D and OpenGL) It is that in three or four years you will still be able to fire up that old version of "Quake 3" and it will work. However if quake (or some other bastard game of your choice) happens to be a 3Dfx only (i.e. glide), you'd be fairly pissed that your new graphics card only supported "direct 3D" or "OpenGL". So is you as a consumer who directly influence what is acceptable. For me glide games only persist in continuing to fragment the games market. It is for this reason alone I will NOT by a 3Dfx card. -- to do so is "certifiably insane" :-) When 3Dfx no longer supports glide I will possibly consider buying a card with their chips, (btw what was rendition's native API, I wonder and is it still continuing?) If you want great games now go and by a 3Dfx card, in five years will it really matter anyway? We know will happen, and won't be based just one companies API. Just some thoughts from a "direct 3D OpenGL certifiably insane loser" :-) Geoff

On Thu, 28 May 1998 12:29:53 +1200, "Geoff Smith" >Anyone that gives you bullshit advice about being "certifiably insane" for >by a direct 3D >card has obviously failed to take into any consideration the future when >3Dfx Ltd. no longer has > the fastest chip. Anybody who chooses their 3D card on any basis other than the games they want to play now and in the near future is making a mistake. This isn't religion. This is isn't politics. This isn't marriage. *Any* choice you make now is a choice for the next couple of years, at best. [snip] Couldn't have said it better myself, and the rest of your argument really just sorta vaporises itself in the face of this one statement. Nope. Nor will OpenGL or Direct3D or any chipset now available. If you want to make your choices based on some high-minded philosophy of supporting open standards, go right ahead. Me, I'm just lookin' for a good time. RichC *-------------To Reply via E-Mail-------------* Remove SPAMTRAP from the return address *---------------------------------------------*

That's fine, I don't mind people who just want to play games and have a good time. that is computers primary role unless you are unlucky enough to have to use them for some business purpose :-) The Riva128 and most other cards provide completely satisfactory direct 3D performance right now, for the best possible experience in games yes the Voodoo2 is presently the best card on the market. Is it worth the money? It depends on how much frame rates and your game experience means to you, and whether that $300 could have been spent on getting pissed 15 times ...etc..going out AND buying a decent to 2D/3D comb card. I guess that is a personal decision on how balanced your life is, and how important games are to you. It's just the fostering of support for one company that I'm against. However if it wasn't for 3Dfx the uptake of the third dimension would have much, much slower, and they were practically the only company to deliver on promises of performance. let's face it if everyone thought the S3-Virge had 3D, there wouldn't be any hope :-) I don't have a beef against 3Dfx, they should rightfully be doing what they are doing -- which is trying to lock in their user base. When your 3Dfx user wants to upgrade, what will be their primary consideration ? probably backward compatibility with their old games which they will still want to play What choice will you have...None -no choice, The only way to retain compatibility with your glide only games, will be to buy another 3Dfx card. But given 3Dfx's track record it's probably safe choice to continue buying their products, unless they lose the plot completely. It probably won't be five years, it will probably be this year, When they lose their performance lead -- I suspect interesting times are ahead. Direct 3D will win the Borg, err I mean Microsoft have seen to this with the features included within DirectX 6. Hopefully should go on long way to resolving the need for glide only games. be cool Geoff >On Thu, 28 May 1998 12:29:53 +1200, "Geoff Smith" >>Anyone that gives you bullshit advice about being "certifiably insane" for

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>>by a direct 3D >>card has obviously failed to take into any consideration the future when >>3Dfx Ltd. no longer has >> the fastest chip. >Anybody who chooses their 3D card on any basis other than the games >they want to play now and in the near future is making a mistake. >This isn't religion. This is isn't politics. This isn't marriage. >*Any* choice you make now is a choice for the next couple of years, at >best. >[snip] >>If you want great games now go and by a 3Dfx card, >Couldn't have said it better myself, and the rest of your argument >really just sorta vaporises itself in the face of this one statement. >>in five years will it >>really matter anyway? >Nope. Nor will OpenGL or Direct3D or any chipset now available. >If you want to make your choices based on some high-minded philosophy >of supporting open standards, go right ahead. Me, I'm just lookin' >for a good time. >RichC >*-------------To Reply via E-Mail-------------* > Remove SPAMTRAP from the return address >*---------------------------------------------*

On Thu, 28 May 1998 12:29:53 +1200, "Geoff Smith"

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>Game developers are mostly to blame, but of course they are getting a kick >back from 3Dfx >in their developer program. So you can hardly criticized them for not >taking advantage >of this obviously lucrative financial arrangement. 3Dfx gets 3Dfx only >games, >game developers get monetary assistance for their development costs for a >glide version.

What about games which work with ALL 3D chipsets (Via Direct 3D or via the game engine itself), but happen to work VERY well with 3Dfx? Do you still blame the companies? If a majority of gamers have a 3Dfx card, they are more liekly to buy your game as it runs well on their 3Dfx. They are not in this for the enjoyment of making a game for you. They are out there making a living too, and if that necessitates making a game which supports 3Dfx, then so be it. If its 3 or 4 years down the track, those gamers who did support Glide and 3Dfx will have brand new computers (probably Pentium IV - 1200MHz) And whatever new 3D (4D?) chips are out there. No gamer buys hardware thats going to last 4 years. And even if you do, its outdated in 2 years, at the LATEST. Hands up all those who try and run GPL or F1RS or TOCA on a 4 year old machine, with a 4 years old graphics card? Take a look at Grand Prix Legends, a great example of the Rendition chipsets ability. It outperforms the 3Dfx version. From what I can tell here, you want a card to do D3D and Open GL, the "certified standards", thats fine, a 3Dfx card will do that AS WELL as do Glide. So whats your beef? All future chipsets willsupport D3D, the forthcoming DirectX6.0,and in most cases, Open GL (either via ICD or MCD or whatever) -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

Tell him to compromise...get both. That's what I did. Switching from live NASCAR to NASCAR2, what a dream. Brad Spaulding

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>> > He is interested in the ATI Rage, or Rage Pro, or Rage >> >something. Anybody have any opinions on this unit? >> I am using a ATI Rage Pro, and I must say it's working mighty fine. Great >> stability and good 3D. I have understood that Glide may give even better >> results, but I am very happy with my setup. >> Harald >I was happy with my Rage Pro but now that they've got OpenGL hardware >drivers for it I'm *really* happy with it. >Colin

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>On Thu, 28 May 1998 12:29:53 +1200, "Geoff Smith" >What about games which work with ALL 3D chipsets (Via Direct 3D or via >the game engine itself), but happen to work VERY well with 3Dfx? >Do you still blame the companies? >If a majority of gamers have a 3Dfx card, they are more liekly to buy >your game as it runs well on their 3Dfx. They are not in this for the >enjoyment of making a game for you. They are out there making a living >too, and if that necessitates making a game which supports 3Dfx, then >so be it.

As I said 3Dfx owners are a minority market, and shrinking as other manufacturers 3D video cards are included as standard features in shipping machines. How many OEM deals to 3Dfx based video cards have been major machines? Do Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Gateway 2000, Compaq ship with 3Dfx based chips -- no they all use combination 2d/3D cards. What will be 3Dfx's market share be in the future? less I would predict and obviously the majority of people share my opinion or at least the people who invest in the stock market -- look at 3Dfx's stock. ( I also suggest you look at Brian Hook's plan file from about two days ago on his theories as to 3Dfx's troubles.) Game companies are trying to sell their games, it is a business of course, what percentage of game companies make money? about 60 % Why waste development effort on two versions unless there is some benefit. developing a native 3Dfx version is necessary to cater to current market. Nathan you have completely missed the point, How about running old games on new hardware? If the game uses and industry standard API you can, My beef is against glide and other proprietary APIs. I'd really like to play screamer rally, it's a great game on 3Dfx. However if they had used DirectX or OpenGL as the rendering engine I and many more people would have been able to play it. Also owners of some newer chips i.e. Matrox (200), S3 (Savage), NVidia (TNT), Intel (i740) would also have been able to enjoy this game this year. when they buy their nice shiny new non-3Dfx card, unfortunately they will have to use the pathetic software render. ( that's my beef -- game companies and proprietary APIs) The combined market share of equally capable video cards will be significantly greater than 3Dfx's this year. The time for 3Dfx only or the software render are about to end. Otherwise the games will not sell to the greater market. The question will be can they (game software developers) afford to still have both APIs supported in their game. (And when I say afford this is a time/financial affordability, considering most companies are profit driven) If you're still unclear what my point is here is another example: what happens if you have a system running some new super fast 3D video card -- if it uses standards i.e. NT5 has DirectX6 and OpenGL No problems. Unfortunately if you have a DOS or Win95 game using a proprietary API it will not work on your new video card in a few years, and will not take any advantage of other advancements that has been made in hardware. Geoff

>As I said 3Dfx owners are a minority market, and shrinking as other Last I heard, 3dfx had slightly over 50% market share. With the number of competing 3D chipsets this is huge. Not even important :-) And to be honest I'm not even interested in re-hashing old religious debates. I just wanted to correct the first two turds I spotted. Hey no charge for the free public service. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

>As I said 3Dfx owners are a minority market, and shrinking as other >manufacturers 3D video cards are included as standard features in shipping >machines. >How many OEM deals to 3Dfx based video cards have been major machines? The size of the market is growing rapidly. The fact that most chipsets have 3D capability, and that therefore 3Dfx's market share of "all 3D chipsets sold" is smaller, is not meaningful because: a) most computers are not owned by people who buy a lot of games, so the presence of a 3D-capable chipset in those machines is meaningless; b) every 3Dfx chipset sold is being sold to someone who buys a lot of games. This is the core of the market, a goldmine for publishers, and is growing rapidly, not shrinking. Meaningless. See above. Market share is meaningless. The size of the market, and its nature, are what's important. Every single 3Dfx chipset sold represents somebody willing to pay significant money to enhance their computer for games. That's a market that cannot be ignored, and which obviously can be prifitably served. [snip] I'll keep my latest Voodoo card as long as there's a Glide-only game I still want to play. Where's the problem? It will coexist with any other video card current or projected. By the time the PCI bus is obsoleted, these arguments will be ancient history. RichC Remove SPAMTRAP from return address when replying.

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> As I said 3Dfx owners are a minority market, and shrinking as other > manufacturers 3D video cards are included as standard features in shipping > machines. > How many OEM deals to 3Dfx based video cards have been major machines? > Do Dell, Hewlett-Packard, Gateway 2000, Compaq ship with 3Dfx based > chips -- no they all use combination 2d/3D cards.

Dell: offers the Creative Voodoo2 card as an option NEC: offers Diamond Monster 2 as an option (NEC machines are nearly identical to Dells) Micron: offers Diamond Monster 2 as an option Compaq: has a *** machine coming out this summer/fall (it's a Presario 4800 series #) - Voodoo2 on board Sys Performance: has a model that includes Monster 2 (Sys is a mid sized co., been around a long while) That's just a start. Of course, in the OEM/addon card market, Voodoo merely has 13-15 different companies making boards using their chips. As for the 2D/3D card argument, that's what Banshee will be for. Target price of $149 should be icing on the cake. Predict STB will OEM Banshee to all the Dells and Gateways. Only real competition is TNT. Brian Hook is not a stock analyst. He merely copied a lot of theories that have been share elsewhere on 'Net stock forums. The major reason for 3Dfx drop was a dramatic increase in the number of shares available, caused by the 2ndary offering and the expiration of lockup on a lot of shares held by venture capitalists. Gee, who can run hardware-accelerated Unreal right now? Wonder why Epic would bother to port to Glide?

On Sun, 31 May 1998 17:52:32 +1200, "Geoff Smith" >As I said 3Dfx owners are a minority market, and shrinking as other >manufacturers 3D video cards are included as standard features in shipping >machines. Shrinking? How many companies sell Voodoo2 cards? Diamond, Creative, Jazz, Guillemot, Cardex, Metabyte, are all these comapnies wrong? Are they all bringing new products to a shinrking market? I've seen Dell, and Gateway offer Voodoo 2 cards in their computers. See above. They use a combo card because the majority of people who buy their computers are not "gameheads" but mostly ordinary users. I think their share of *** gamers who would want Voodoo2s would be extremely small. Is Brian Hook a stock market analyst? So obviously the other 40% continue to make games so they can lose money. And the game would be worse. The game would not be as good as it is now with 3dfx. How many games are 3Dfx only? Most games are now coming out as D3D. But if they can make a 3Dfx version also, then fantastic, we can benefit from spending the extra money on our cards. If they make a game which supports more than one API, they will sell more copies, more copies, more money for them, offsetting any extra costs incurred in coding it for the extra API. NO game will take advantage of the advancements in hardware. Why would it? Its been coded years before. How many people want to run F1RS or TOCA or GPL 4 years later? There will be so many better games, more realistic, and so on to play. Keep your old machine for your old games. Simple innit? -- Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors - Super Touring - Alfa Romeo - - V8Supercars - CART -

This argument is starting to bore me! I did a study before buying my Voodoo 2, I read all the benchmarks all the reviews by the so called experts, who hype every new rumored 3D card as posibly being a Voodoo2 killer. Only to see these cards as being disapointment in actual game play. The reason i bought a Diamond Monster II was because it not only plays Glide games which all my favorite flight sims support with excellent graphics, but 3DFX also runs OpenGL, and Direct 3D realy fast. I run all this on my new Pentium II 400, and I must say it's the dream machine i've always wanted, I use to have a P133 the difference is huge. What i'm try to say i guess is that a faster than Voodoo2 no longer means a better card, it's better visual quality were looking for now, and until somebody does that i'm sticking with my 3DFX 2 card for now, it runs very fast and beautiful. Oh by the way - Flight sim 98 at 1024x768 in 3D on my system is something to brag about :)

Hi Geoff, you gracefully neglect the fact that the new Voodoo2 boards also support DirectX (and are much faster than all the competitors even under D3D). Plus, they'll also support OpenGL - drivers are already being written. 3dFX have shown that they are extremely capable in both hard- and software development. They have always been a few steps ahead of the competition, and they haven't lost that advantage yet. The stock market development you mention is nothing but a normal adjustment. When 3dFX released their first Voodoo chipset, they didn't have any competition worth mentioning - only several much slower and much less capable boards were available. Not even Rendition was on a level with 3dFX. Now, the situation has changed, and the stock market reflects this. But 3dFX are still technology leaders - there's no point in arguing this - and 3dFX is the most supported standard when it comes to genuine support from games producers. Yes, there will be new boards in the future, but 3dFX won't sleep either. And with their SLI feature, even the V2 will be competitive for a long time even if they _didn't_ release new chipsets - but of course they will. I don't think any other board within the next 8 months will be able to beat an SLI-V2 in the higher resolutions. I think your analysis of the situation is wrong. 3dFX is ahead of the competition. The only difference being that now there _is_ some competition. But 3dFX has a considerable headstart. So, ATM, there is absolutely no indication that 3dFX is in trouble. IMO, that's just wishful thinking by some... Achim

> This argument is starting to bore me! I did a study before buying my Voodoo > 2, I read all the benchmarks all the reviews by the so called experts, who snip > Oh by the way - Flight sim 98 at 1024x768 in 3D on my system is something to > brag about :) Now, just wait, somebody will say shortly: Uuuuh, but you can't use it in multiplayer with the chat feature... Hey, it's the last argument in any 3D card discussion... BTW, does it get more entertaining, if you fly over a flat plane WITH somebody? l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Just curious... if you or anyone else knows: If everything in your system stayed the same except the Voodoo was I instead of II, how would that affect the description you gave of your system's play? i'm sticking with my 3DFX 2

Being the best doesn't guarantee survival - we've seen examples of that in other areas in the computing industry. Being widely used on the other hand.......(not just for niche markets like ours) -Simon H

> Being the best doesn't guarantee survival - we've seen examples of that in > other areas in the computing industry. Being widely used on the other > hand.......(not just for niche markets like ours) I agree. I'm no fan of Microsoft, but WIN 9x has isolated the devices from the application. So as long as the manufacture of a piece of equipment writes the interface to WIN 9x, the sim can use it. Larry