GPL with Joystick......

I did some experimenting this afternoon, a dull, cool and overcast day....not conducive to outdoors activities. I connected up my favourite old j/stick, a Gravis Analogue...two axis, two button. I still use this for flight sims....it is dead stable, accurate and a pleasure to use. Pity they (Gravis) ever did away with it. Anyway.....I thought I'd see what driving the GPL cars was like with a j/s, instead of with my T1.....I expected terrible things, to be honest. So I went into the Lotus camp and borrowed a F2 car, fired it up and did a few laps. The first few allowed me to become familiar with the j/s operation and after about half a dozen, I was quite getting to like the experience. I could catch any oversteering tendency a darn sight faster than with the wheel. I could push the car through that lovely long right-hand sweeper making quick little corrections a lot better than with the wheel. Imagine my surprise when, after 11 laps, I stopped the run and had a look at my lap times. I had set a faster lap in the F2 car (G2 mode) with the joystick that I had with the wheel!!! Okay...over to the GP car and out for a run. Eight laps later, there I was with a 1'-10.92".......I cut 1/10th.off my previous best! I see more postings here about the "dreadful/inaccurate/diabolical/disappointing steering" than you can poke a stick at. Why? What are these people doing? I'm not the fastest, by any means, but I haven't had one thing to complain about with regard to the steering setup. What are some people doing......driving as if they were in NASCAR2 or ICR2 or GP2 or F1RS?! Sheese.....all I did with the j/s was to put the linear slider to the full 'non-linear' and calibrate the ***y thing. That's it! Now, If *I* can post a reasonable time with a 6 year-old 2-button joystick, then for Christs' sake, there can't be much wrong with the way the steering arrangement is set up, now can there? -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

I posted a short while ago that I had removed the bungee cord from my Formula One/Nascar Pro, because I found it unrealistic to receive the same resistance to applying corrective lock as to turning. When the rear end of the car is trying to overtake the front, and you correct, you are steering with the car not against it, hence would receive little resistance. Similarly understeer situation will leed to light steering. I also found I improved my lap times by eliminating the resistance, hence speeding up the corrective action. It was suggested some friction would be more realistic which I agree with (there will always be the steering mechanism to provide common resistance to motion). I would imagine it should be a lot easier with a wheel providing 270 degress of movement to be more accurate than a short joystick, but I guess its a feel thing (like F16 pilots develop). I personally find a wheel to be more fun because it feels more like the real thing. Its the experience of being there that gives me the buzz, over finding an unrealistic alternative to achieve better times. So I guess I'm a bit disappointed with the results of your experiment that a wheel is potentially a lesser controller for GPL than a joystick. I don't recall joysticks even equalling wheels in other sims. I appreciate the point you are making in suggesting that if you can get on with an old joystick then why are people moaning about their steering wheels, but can't help feeling that the results of your experiment are that we need a fast response controller to succeed in GPL. Whereas I want a sim that is best with a wheel. Any thoughts? Cheers Tony

Oh, so do I Tony. Don't get me wrong on this......a wheel feels far more realistic and I would prefer to race with the wheel, pedals and gear- lever. I was only talking about this very thing with a mate of mine who found the same thing. He has a little joystick....like one of the original Kraft units of about 10 years ago......and he also has a T2 arrangement. Like me, he also prefers to drive with the 'stick, because of the feedback (visual/audible....NOT physical!!) but would much prefer to get the same feeling with the wheel. We both commented on how it was possible to drive a sim with a 'stick yet how odd it would feel trying to actually drive a real car using the same system. Well, I used to switch between wheel and 'stick when racing in GP2....and also in ICR1 and ICR2. Some days, if I had been flight-simming, I'd leave the 'stick plugged in and use it for racing. In all cases my times were faster than with a wheel. Sadly, none other than what I've already made. I'm not technically competent in that area to the extent that I can suggest anything. I also would be delighted to see a wheel/pedal arrangement that is as "fast" in its response as that of a joystick. -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

If I remember correctly, when asked by a r.a.s. reader one of the Papyrus representitives said that most of the Papyrus "drivers" (and especially the faster ones), used a stick and pedals combination. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> Sadly, none other than what I've already made. I'm not technically > competent in that area to the extent that I can suggest anything. I also > would be delighted to see a wheel/pedal arrangement that is as "fast" in > its response as that of a joystick. Having only ever had an el cheapo Mad Catz wheel (it's just about seen its day btw - well over 18 months of excellent service, used just about EVERY day for the last 8 months, and possibly the best value for the dollar thing I have purchased for the PC), something I noticed when testing T2's at shops was how relatively heavy the actual wheel was in comparison to my MC. I am sure that to get the same performance out of the T2 I would have to REALLY manhandle it! Perhaps a cheap, light wheel is the best option ie better control than a stick and comparable ability to make quick adjustments. Add to this the ability to adjust tension (stiffer for ovals? looser for roads?) and you might just have tommorows super wheel. Realistic - maybe not but realistic in that it would be the optimum arrangement for sim racing (a sport unto itself). Carbon Fibre steering wheels anyone? LOL! Faster than "proper" FF wheels????????? Even faster with "proper" FF wheels?????????

I have often wondered if F1 teams etc have toyed with similar ideas. Like F16 pressure sticks? I could just see the in car shots of Schumacher lapping the field at Hockenheim whilst sipping a chocolate milkshake thru a straw :))

> > Sadly, none other than what I've already made. I'm not technically > > competent in that area to the extent that I can suggest anything. I also > > would be delighted to see a wheel/pedal arrangement that is as "fast" in > > its response as that of a joystick. I always drag out my joystick when i want to play NFS1 for just this reason - the stick enables me to turn the wheels almost instantly compared to the wheel. Same with the Redline Racer demo, but then that was bikes AND arcade, not a real sim. otherwise i wouldn't even own a joystick :) I used to think my T2 wheel was a little heavy for very fast wheel movements when i first got it with GP2 18 months or so ago, which is why i used the Opposite Lock cheat in Gp2. But then i stopped playing car sims for nearly a year, and meanwhile started doing some "hobby" working out at home, and then when i came back to sims 6 months back, i found that it is now a hell of a lot easier to flick the wheel around very very quickly for big opposite lock corrections after doubling the strength of my arms/shoulders. (especially useful for controlling my twitchy setups and powerslides in SODA!!) It's also much easier steering a non-powersteer car now too :) So if you're like me and wouldn't otherwise get off your ***and do much exercise, then this could be a good excuse:) "why do you work out, Grant?" "so i can drive my car sims better!" "oh! and here I thought you had gained a genuine interest in fitness!" :)

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> I used to think my T2 wheel was a little heavy for very fast > wheel movements when i first got it with GP2 18 months or so ago, > which is why i used the Opposite Lock cheat in Gp2. But then i stopped > playing car sims for nearly a year, and meanwhile started doing some > "hobby" working out at home, and then when i came back to sims 6 > months back, i found that it is now a hell of a lot easier to flick > the wheel around very very quickly for big opposite lock corrections > after doubling the strength of my arms/shoulders. (especially useful > for controlling my twitchy setups and powerslides in SODA!!) It's > also much easier steering a non-powersteer car now too :) > So if you're like me and wouldn't otherwise get off your ***and do > much exercise, then this could be a good excuse:) "why do you work > out, Grant?" "so i can drive my car sims better!" "oh! and here I > thought you had gained a genuine interest in fitness!" :)

LOL. I actually have been planning, for about the last 6 years or so, to get back into a little weight training :) So when I find myself sitting there with the MC wheel in my hands no longer connected to the base after it has snapped right off I'll probably have to get one of those "heavy" wheels and start the fitness program. Talk about professionals :))))

That's interesting, Michael. That's *exactly* what I am using....the joystick for steering/gear changing and the pedals for accel/braking. The accuracy of the steering is way better than with a wheel (takes a while to get used to, though). -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

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> > If I remember correctly, when asked by a r.a.s. reader one of the > > Papyrus representitives said that most of the Papyrus "drivers" (and > > especially the faster ones), used a stick and pedals combination. > That's interesting, Michael. > That's *exactly* what I am using....the joystick for steering/gear > changing and the pedals for accel/braking. > The accuracy of the steering is way better than with a wheel (takes a > while to get used to, though).

That's strange! To me it would be like flying a plane with a wheel... and I wouldn't care, if my lap times get better. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

There isn't any *** to help joystick users, but as you've found out it's inherently going to be much faster and easier to flick a joystick from one extreme to another than it will be to rotate a wheel 270 or so degrees. You should find that you can go even faster if you set up the stick to run with a set of pedals. Many of the guys at Papyrus use this type of setup, though I prefer a wheel mainly because that's how I'm used to driving my own car... - Eric

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>So I went into the Lotus camp and borrowed a F2 car, fired it up and did >a few laps. The first few allowed me to become familiar with the j/s >operation and after about half a dozen, I was quite getting to like the >experience. I could catch any oversteering tendency a darn sight faster >than with the wheel. I could push the car through that lovely long >right-hand sweeper making quick little corrections a lot better than with >the wheel...

degrees. Yeah, watch the poor guys animated arms go berserk. I had to try this joystick setup and seeing the accelerated arms proved to me once & foreall this is unrealistic. Even Schummi's arms don't go this fast! I guess its only a problem for multiplayer - Papyrus will give us the ability to tune the AI to our own competitiveness for single player - where using a wheel could be a disadvantage. Perhaps we will need wheel only leagues? Cheers Tony

You're certainly not wrong, Eric. That is exactly the setup that I have been, and will now be, using. I removed the T1 wheel from the equation and inserted the joystick. Incidentally....one of the good things about the now-defunct Gravis Analogue is the ability to adjust the stick tension. Not too many other sticks have this feature and it certainly helps an awful lot in getting the "flick-ability" just right in GPL. -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

:-) Plenty of planes are flying around with wheels, Ronny! Wander into the***pit of any major aircraft or, for that matter, even a Cessna 172. Joysticks are mainly seen in sailplanes, aerobatics, classics and military single-seaters. -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

That's the key thing, IMHO. I know of quite a few of the best drivers who use either joysticks or joystick/pedal combinations. One further thought - I would expect that a wheel / pedal combination would prove rather less tiring than a joystick (I still rememeber the blisters I got when I used a joystick <g>). So a joystick may be better for hotlapping, but maybe wheel / pedal for full distance races? Cheers, Richard

Hi guys, I changed from a pure joystick (CH Flightstick) to joystick with pedals (CH Flightstick and CH Pro Pedals), and then from joystick with pedals (CH Flightstick and CH Pro Pedals) to a wheel with pedals (Thrustmaster GP1 with CH Pro Pedals). When I got my pedals first, I found that this was better than with the joystick alone. But the switch from joystick with pedals to wheel with pedals hasn't made much difference. I believe that both solutions can be equally fast. The main difference is that with a wheel, you can be more precise because of the greater travel, and with a joystick you can react quicker because of the shorter travel. The joystick's shortcomings can be overcome to a large extent by non-linear steering. And on a wheel, you simply have to make greater movements and hence do additional physical work over the joystick - but that's about it, IMO. Achim

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>> Sadly, none other than what I've already made. I'm not technically >> competent in that area to the extent that I can suggest anything. I also >> would be delighted to see a wheel/pedal arrangement that is as "fast" in >> its response as that of a joystick. > Having only ever had an el cheapo Mad Catz wheel (it's just about seen >its day btw - well over 18 months of excellent service, used just about >EVERY day for the last 8 months, and possibly the best value for the >dollar thing I have purchased for the PC), something I noticed when >testing T2's at shops was how relatively heavy the actual wheel was in >comparison to my MC. I am sure that to get the same performance out of >the T2 I would have to REALLY manhandle it! Perhaps a cheap, light wheel >is the best option ie better control than a stick and comparable ability >to make quick adjustments. Add to this the ability to adjust tension >(stiffer for ovals? looser for roads?) and you might just have tommorows >super wheel. Realistic - maybe not but realistic in that it would be the >optimum arrangement for sim racing (a sport unto itself). Carbon Fibre >steering wheels anyone? LOL! Faster than "proper" FF wheels????????? >Even faster with "proper" FF wheels?????????

Turn his arms "off"! -- Regards, --- Bruce. For the GP legends Historic Motor Racing Club, go to:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Referring to driving GPL with a joystick as opposed to a wheel I commented >> Yeah, watch the poor guys animated arms go berserk. >Turn his arms "off"! Bruce, my point is this GPL represents the most realistic physics model so far. You are breaking the laws of physics by being able to move from lock to lock faster than is humanly possible. Doesn't this defeat the object? Tony

Assuming the arms are moving in real time, with a joystick the arms move impossibly fast. Therefore I am assuming this is not possible in real life. There are some big assumptions I agree. Perhaps my faith in Papyrus programmers is too great. Whatever, a wheel has to be more realistic than a joystick. This is important to me, but each to his own. I was surprised by how much I like the arms! Cheers Tony

> Imagine my surprise when, after 11 laps, I stopped the run and had a look > at my lap times. I had set a faster lap in the F2 car (G2 mode) with the > joystick that I had with the wheel!!! That comes as no surprise to me. As much as I like the idea of racing with a wheel, I can do better with a stick. My best time at the Glen in Nascar2 is in the mid 1:12's with the stick (Thrustmaster F22 and TQS for throttle), and in the 1:14's with a wheel. Maybe it's all the flight sim time... I know I feel pretty much at home with a joystick, while the wheels all have a slightly "alien" feel to me. I think I'd do a lot better with a shorter throw wheel... something that went maybe 150 degrees lock to lock might be about right for me. Does anyone make an adjustable throw wheel? Trips

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> :-) > Plenty of planes are flying around with wheels, Ronny! > Wander into the***pit of any major aircraft or, for that matter, even a > Cessna 172. > Joysticks are mainly seen in sailplanes, aerobatics, classics and > military single-seaters.

Yep, ignored that, bad comparison. Still, you can fly a plane with a wheel or a joystick, but I never saw a car with a joystick. Now don't tell me, you saw one in a science fiction movie... 8^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Not really.....not in my book, anyway. Probably because I treat the arms as simply graphical filler. It would mean little to me if they weren't there at all. I thought that it would when I first tried this demo.....I turned the arms/wheel off and thought, "S***! That's a ***y big empty space!" A week or so down the track (no pun intended) and now I just don't see the space. Therefore it's immaterial to me whether the arms are moving in real time or jerk-o-vision......it's simply graphical gloss and has no bearing on how the car is actually handling.

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> Bruce, my point is this > GPL represents the most realistic physics model so far. > You are breaking the laws of physics by being able to move from lock to lock > faster than is humanly possible. Doesn't this defeat the object? > Tony

-- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

:-) No....not at all. I think it would be rather a strange sensation to drive a car with a joystick. However, what may seem strange in the real world comes across as pretty damn good in the virtual world! :-) > Yep, ignored that, bad comparison. Still, you can fly a plane with a > wheel > or a joystick, but I never saw a car with a joystick. > Now don't tell me, you saw one in a science fiction movie... 8^) -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

Grrrrr, I was already starting to write about Total Recall ;-) AFAIK Mercedes (or BMW??) has a car project with some sort of joystick. It looks like a NHRA wheel I think. Could be interesting. Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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> > :-) > > Plenty of planes are flying around with wheels, Ronny! > > Wander into the***pit of any major aircraft or, for that matter, > even a > > Cessna 172. > > Joysticks are mainly seen in sailplanes, aerobatics, classics and > > military single-seaters. > Yep, ignored that, bad comparison. Still, you can fly a plane with a > wheel > or a joystick, but I never saw a car with a joystick. > Now don't tell me, you saw one in a science fiction movie... 8^)

Oh yes there is....... Saab has got a 9000-series car with a joystick, just like an F16. It's not for sale yet, and might never be..but it's been tried. Hell, If I lost my legs, I'd consider it, but otherwise, not likely:-) The wheel was the best "invention" for a long time, now why would we want to go back to sticks? Might be favourable among the female drivers, though<vbg> Cheers, Matt -- Matthew Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars [link lost in import: /~kareknut/]

Volvo has played around with the idea in the interests of safety. As so many people are injured by hitting the steering wheel in an accident. This was before air bags were in so many cars. The steering was done with a joystick, fly by wire, type of arrangment, where the shifter normally was.

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> > There isn't any *** to help joystick users, but as you've found > out > > it's inherently going to be much faster and easier to flick a joystick > from > > one extreme to another than it will be to rotate a wheel 270 or so > degrees. > Yeah, watch the poor guys animated arms go berserk. I had to try this > joystick setup and seeing the accelerated arms proved to me once & foreall > this is unrealistic. Even Schummi's arms don't go this fast! > I guess its only a problem for multiplayer - Papyrus will give us the > ability to tune the AI to our own competitiveness for single player - where > using a wheel could be a disadvantage. Perhaps we will need wheel only > leagues?

I'll put my Mad Catz up against any stickie any day! :)

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> Assuming the arms are moving in real time, with a joystick the arms move > impossibly fast. Therefore I am assuming this is not possible in real life. > There are some big assumptions I agree. Perhaps my faith in Papyrus > programmers is too great. > Whatever, a wheel has to be more realistic than a joystick. This is > important to me, but each to his own.

Good points here. Looks like we are at the stage where to address this issue we need Papy, etc to model maximum sensible turn rates of the front wheels ie if you flick the stick from lock to lock then the actual wheels only move at a maximum rate.

> Maybe it's all the flight sim time... I know I feel pretty much at home > with a joystick, while the wheels all have a slightly "alien" feel to > me. I think I'd do a lot better with a shorter throw wheel... something > that went maybe 150 degrees lock to lock might be about right for me. > Does anyone make an adjustable throw wheel? Just calibrate it that way. I once did this with GP2 but I much prefer the accuracy that comes with a full lock to lock calibration.

Yes. I believe that this was dropped, however, when a statistical study showed that nine-out-of-ten male front-seat occupants injured in an accident would end up as eunuchs. > The steering was done with a joystick, > fly by wire, type of arrangment, where the shifter normally was. -- Regards, Bruce. ---------- The GP Legends Historic Motor Racing Club is located at:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/