GPL IS A HORRIBLE DISSAPOINTMENT

Back in 1995 I and several of my friends began pestering Papyrus to adapt its ICR2 engine to sims covering the golden age of open wheel racing. The vote was pretty well evenly split between the '67 F1 season and the contemporary Indy rear engine revolution, with the latter group holding only the slimmest of margins. Well, we got our wish, which only goes to prove that you REALLY should be very careful when asking for something. Instead of an improved open wheel sim, what we have here is an overengineered, poorly optimized, buggy, unrealistic monstrosity that requires a 32 meg 220+ MMX system with a state of the art graphics card to deliver anything approaching an acceptable frame rate. Can you say RED BARON II? Sure you can, and so will the bean counters at the new and improved Sierra when the sales figures start trickling in. People, this shit has got to stop. I've been using computers since the days when I had to sit on a telephone book to program basic games on a 48k Atari 800, and it seems the PC industry suffers from a chronic mental defect that causes it to repeat the same old mistakes over and over again. What I'm talking about is the law of diminishing returns, a rock solid, fundamental principle that applies to everything from hitting a baseball to global macroeconomics. Simply put, when the time and money invested in activity escalates without a proportional increase in returns, you cut bait and run. Trip Hawkins learned this lesson the hard way, and so have several other corporate mainstays over the past few years. How many can you name? I can think of about thirty once powerful companies that refused to learn from past mistakes and are now nothing more than footnotes in a few game fans' obscure histories. And the trend towards self gleeful extinction among the industry's self proclaimed leaders is getting worse. If you don't believe me, check out the econonmics. Software sales of new product are down and will continue to drop, yet PC's in the uder $1000 market are at an all time high. catch the discrepancy? If not, maybe you should apply for a job at Sierra or Lucas Arts, at least while they're still around. Over the past five years I've purchased three new computers sytems and gone through God knows how many upgrades, and it's time to stop. It's not just a question of staying ahead of the hardware curve any more--that's clearly impossible--but one of simple common sense. Anyone who has a copy of MAME or CALLUS on their hard drive knows exactly what I'm talking about. Good luck to the rest of you. You're going to need it.

While it is true, we can only guess what GPL will run like in final form, we can look at what they have released. My gargantuan system is a P200mmx which cost $135, an old Asus MB $105, and a Diamond Stealth II , $99. On that system, I run the demo at 800x600 with AA and all the graphics...doesn't seem bad at all. I don't feel this sim will require very much more than what we run N2 on. (but that is a guess) I really don't see your comparison to RBII. After all on the major issue of graphics, they waffled back and forth whether RB would be 3d or not. Strange but GPL is Rendition and 3dfx right out of the box...and possible D3d as well. Seems they have that covered as well.. If your gonna get this bent out of shape over a pre-release "demo"..then I can only suggest Ridge Racer on a Play Station.. dave henrie

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> Back in 1995 I and several of my friends began pestering Papyrus to > adapt its ICR2 engine to sims covering the golden age of open wheel > racing. The vote was pretty well evenly split between the '67 F1 season > and the contemporary Indy rear engine revolution, with the latter group > holding only the slimmest of margins. > Well, we got our wish, which only goes to prove that you REALLY should > be very careful when asking for something. Instead of an improved open > wheel sim, what we have here is an overengineered, poorly optimized, > buggy, unrealistic monstrosity that requires a 32 meg 220+ MMX system > with a state of the art graphics card to deliver anything approaching an > acceptable frame rate. Can you say RED BARON II? Sure you can, and so > will the bean counters at the new and improved Sierra when the sales > figures start trickling in. > People, this shit has got to stop. I've been using computers since the > days when I had to sit on a telephone book to program basic games on a > 48k Atari 800, and it seems the PC industry suffers from a chronic > mental defect that causes it to repeat the same old mistakes over and > over again. > What I'm talking about is the law of diminishing returns, a rock > solid, fundamental principle that applies to everything from hitting a > baseball to global macroeconomics. Simply put, when the time and money > invested in activity escalates without a proportional increase in > returns, you cut bait and run. > Trip Hawkins learned this lesson the hard way, and so have several > other corporate mainstays over the past few years. How many can you > name? I can think of about thirty once powerful companies that refused > to learn from past mistakes and are now nothing more than footnotes in a > few game fans' obscure histories. And the trend towards self gleeful > extinction among the industry's self proclaimed leaders is getting > worse. If you don't believe me, check out the econonmics. Software sales > of new product are down and will continue to drop, yet PC's in the uder > $1000 market are at an all time high. catch the discrepancy? If not, > maybe you should apply for a job at Sierra or Lucas Arts, at least while > they're still around. > Over the past five years I've purchased three new computers sytems and > gone through God knows how many upgrades, and it's time to stop. It's > not just a question of staying ahead of the hardware curve any > more--that's clearly impossible--but one of simple common sense. Anyone > who has a copy of MAME or CALLUS on their hard drive knows exactly what > I'm talking about. Good luck to the rest of you. You're going to need > it.

GPL is Alpha...I, for one, hope this excelleration of the technology- roller-coaster never stops...It's too much damn fun! =) Cheers! Marc > People, this shit has got to stop. I've been using computers since the > days when I had to sit on a telephone book to program basic games on a > 48k Atari 800, and it seems the PC industry suffers from a chronic > mental defect that causes it to repeat the same old mistakes over and > over again. -- (please remove '_*_' when replying) Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

I hope you feel better. I for one want computers be faster and performance in all respects to improve as fast as possible. I'm sorry if some people can't keep up with the onslought of technology. I am reminded of a saying my father used to use on me while I was growing up- "You either run with the Big Dogs, or stay on the porch." Me, I'm running like to hell to keep up, you gotta admit, it's a helluva ride <ggg.> All the best, Mike -- Michael S. Davis Creative Media-Works Computer/Audio/Video Convergence "from Creative minds spring Creative solutions." http://www.creativemedia-works.com

I agree with you 100%. I just bought my last system a Micron P300 II. Just to add to what you wrote. The guys at id are telling us "WHAT WE WILL NEED" to run Quake III. This has begun to surpass the reasoning that Computer Games are an expensive hobby. It's getting to be comical. I'm getting the remainder of the games that my system will run acceptably and then i'm packing it in. I've been an avid gamer since '92 and i've blown alot of money. It's a good thing i've lost interest in *** over the years. It's just not the same, expensive computer hardware to run unoriginal, uninteresting, unfinished, and buggy games. My comments are in general. I still like the Papyrus stuff, but I know i'll pass on GPL not because of what i'm reading, but only because it doesn't interest me. -The Rodster ps These are just my comments and i'm not interested in a flame war. OTOH I welcome your opinion.

Ummm, I don't wish to rain on your parade, or even to pour cold water on your harangue, but it *HAS* been mentioned here, many times, that we are looking at and playing with a "demo" that has been created from a developmental tool, and a rather oldish one at that. that requires a 32 meg 220+ MMX system Well, in that case, stop buying new systems. But don't expect technological development and consumerism to come to a grinding halt as well. Since 1991 I have owned the following...... C-64; Amiga; PC386SX; PC386DX; PC486; PC486DX; PC486DX2; P-100; P-166; P-266. That's 10 different systems in 8 years....you work out what that averages to per annum. In addition to the above, add things like sound cards, video cards, extra memory, bigger hard drives, more hard drives, CDRs, new software, etcetera and etecetera. But I don't mind one little bit........the new technology is fantastic, the new sims are fantastic and the enjoyment level continues at a high level. Every person who has a hobby/sport/special interest expects to pay in order to continue following their particular interest. Every person who has a VCR, stereo system, TV etc. expects to want to update every few years. Those who use their computer equipment more for entertainment rather than word processing are no different. ------- Bruce.

>be very careful when asking for something. Instead of an improved open >wheel sim, what we have here is an overengineered, poorly optimized, >buggy, unrealistic monstrosity that requires a 32 meg 220+ MMX system >with a state of the art graphics card to deliver anything approaching an >acceptable frame rate. You already have the final version? Where did you get that at? ..and I thought they still were experimenting with the alpha version, or something like that.

>... that requires a 32 meg 220+ MMX system >with a state of the art graphics card ... So what? That's no different than any other sim these days. Besides, this is an early test version - obviously the code still needs to be optimized. Duh. What are you talking about? RB2 doesn't even support 3d accelerators yet, that's a whole different issue. Get yourself a Playstation, if you don't want upgradeable hardware. 'Cause the rest of the world isn't going to come to a stop just because you don't feel like upgrading your PC anymore. Actually, with the introduction of cheap and plentiful 3D accelerators, that's probably easier to do than it ever has been. Not saying it's cheap, but 3D graphical processing power is much cheaper than it use to be. That's a GOOD thing. Joe

on his pocket calculator. Are you saying that cpu etc tech should stall. And we should play GP2/ICR2 forever? Why post this stuff? You have an obvious case of not getting a big enough buzz out of computer games/sims anymore to warrant the monetary outlay. So what? I would expect that when new software hits the shelves it should be able to be used with state of the art equiptment with full graphics options at a good? fps. When GPL is released there will probably be PII500's. I will conceed however that intel, etc seem to be asking a bit too much extra for what amounts to "tiny" 33mhz improvements.

> While it is true, we can only guess what GPL will run like in final > form, we can look at what they have released. My gargantuan system is a > P200mmx which cost $135, an old Asus MB $105, and a Diamond Stealth II , > $99. On that system, I run the demo at 800x600 with AA and all the > graphics...doesn't seem bad at all. I don't feel this sim will require very > much more than what we run N2 on. (but that is a guess) If Papy didn't optimize their code dramatically, it will need MORE horsepower, just for the improved physics. N2 runs okay on my P200/3Dfx (meaning it could be smoother ;^), but GPL with AI cars would definitly mean worse fps on the same system... l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> People, this shit has got to stop. I've been using computers since the >days when I had to sit on a telephone book to program basic games on a >48k Atari 800, and it seems the PC industry suffers from a chronic >mental defect that causes it to repeat the same old mistakes over and >over again. > What I'm talking about is the law of diminishing returns, a rock >solid, fundamental principle that applies to everything from hitting a >baseball to global macroeconomics. Simply put, when the time and money >invested in activity escalates without a proportional increase in >returns, you cut bait and run.

<remainder of troll snipped> Another fundamental rule is that when you can't tell the difference between Pole Position on a 48k Atari 800 and GPL on a 3dFX equipped X86 system you are either blind or dead. There is an even more simple rule - if it upsets you....don't buy it. Then it becomes Papy's problem to judge whether you are in a minority ot not, although the answer to that is pretty obvious to anyone on the group. Cheers! John

Hi John, I'll never understand how you and Rik can waste so much time in this NG. You could have much better discussions over in Sprtsims, would get attacked less, would certainly hear more fact-based argument as well... Achim

I find that these days I'm not interested in "games" as such at all. In previous years -- when almost everything was new, novel, or just a lot better/prettier than before -- I played a lot of things I didn't have a lot of interest in. I mean, I'm sure a sideways scrolling shoot em up is still good fun, but I can't see myself ever bothering to spend time getting through a whole game (or even level) again. I still buy magazines occasionally and look through the latest batch of demos, but my HD tends to contain the best examples of the driving, flying, and shooting genres. Quake, Su27, and GPL are the only things I play regularly... though since GPL the others haven't had much of a look in. Another important point is that my interest in Quake and Su27 have been stimulated and kept alive in the long term by multiplayer support. I look forward to GPL doing the same for my driving, as there's been no decent multiplayer racing support in the UK so far. Basically I update my hardware so I can get maximum pleasure (and bang for buck) out of these titles. When I stop enjoying them, and the experiences they can offer, I'll stop upgrading. So far though, I've relished every step of the journey towards getting a realistic experience on this screen before me. It'll never replace the real thing, but if we all tried this stuff for real the industry'd collapse in a matter of weeks... we'd all be dead or in hospital :-) Andrew McP... who spent a lot of pocket money on Space Invaders

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 11:29:24 +0200, Ronald Stoehr

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>If Papy didn't optimize their code dramatically, it will need MORE >horsepower, >just for the improved physics. N2 runs okay on my P200/3Dfx (meaning it >could >be smoother ;^), but GPL with AI cars would definitly mean worse fps on >the >same system...

My prediction: With a PII-233 and a Voodoo2, the final version of GPL with full AI and the all graphics options turned "on", will run in the range of 20-25 fps. With this configuration, the demo runs at around 30-40 fps (without AI). Marc. -------- To replay via e-mail, remove "spam." from the beginning of my e-mail address (Tyring to avoid junk mail)

% My prediction: % With a PII-233 and a Voodoo2, the final version of GPL with full AI % and the all graphics options turned "on", will run in the range of % 20-25 fps. % With this configuration, the demo runs at around 30-40 fps (without % AI). That's odd, because I could swear that GPL isn't even getting close to 30-40 fps in the current demo with VooDoo2 and a PII-300. I would guestimate the frame rate to be about half that with all detail turned on. While it's smooth, smooth doesn't mean fast. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I agree. GPL is very good at giving an impression of a higher framerate than it is actaully getting. I don't really notice the framerate on my P233mmx with Pure3D except if I look at objects that are moving at a high pixel rate - such as trees just before they disappear from view, or the whole screen when i am cornering on turn 8, that's when i notice how low my framerate really is - i'd say it's about 15fps. But it does not FEEL like 15fps. I did a test last night - i turned on Software rendering with full detail and was getting a whole 2fps (woohoo! i hear you all yell in awe and admiration :) ) but even though it was a slide show - like driving while blinking twice a second (try it!) - the car was still responding instantly to my inputs - just listen to the engine revving, dropping hte car in gear and wheelspinning, etc, the car is still responding in realtime even though the framerate is utterly atrocious. I could even still do perfect wheelspinning drag starts where i hold the throttle at around half rpm (full rpm wheelspins are slow to accelerate) just like normal, even though I couldn't see jack shit, and would end up pranging into things. This realtime simulation, with the graphics being secondary and unrelated to the simulation speed, gives the feeling of instant responsiveness even when the framerate is not so fast, thus giving the feeling of a much smoother framerate than in other games. Of course, the slower framerate means that our quickest possible reaction time is lessened because of the delay in seeing the current situation of the car, so even though it feels fine, our control of the car is not quite as good as what it could be. I suspect this is why people who have upgraded their PCs on this newsgroup have suddenly driven a whole lot faster while not quite knowing why. the increasedcpu gives an increased framerate which people didn't really notice because they didn't realise just how low their fps was before they upgraded. well, that was my Theory of the Day from yesterday:) had to get it out somewhere... Of course it could be quite wrong:) but it sounds impressive:) Grant.

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 14:09:37 +1200, Grant Reeve >well, that was my Theory of the Day from yesterday:) had to get it >out somewhere... Of course it could be quite wrong:) but it sounds >impressive:) I'd like to add to your comments if you don't mind... I think I've noticed something else: The sim seems to draw the track first, the the objects if it has enough time... Sometimes when you're looking at the track you think you have flawless rock-solid >30 FPS and when you look to the outside it looks not so good. I noticed that in ICR2 rendition too. I looks like the program draws track and cars first, and if it has enough cpu cycles left it draws everything else. So when you're looking at the track and at other cars (that's what you do 99% of the time when you're racing anyway) it looks like the game is very smooth, much smoother than it really is. Can anyone confirm this or am I hallucinating? A. Renault

>I think I've noticed something else: The sim seems to draw the track >first, the the objects if it has enough time... I noticed that too. The 3d***pit also seems to get high priority. Smart design - the track and car is the most important objects to have high frame-rate, and no drawing-popup (on the track). Pure frame-rate wise - by looking at the trees going buy in the corner, the demo is very slow, I'd say about 15 fps (P200 w/3Dfx). The program obviously hasn't been optimized yet. Joe

On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:09:00 -0700, "Marc J. Nelson" >GPL is Alpha...I, for one, hope this excelleration of the technology- >roller-coaster never stops...It's too much damn fun! =) Marc, What, you mean that this ISN'T a demo of the final version? Oh my god, what good is it? I mean, really, releasing something just to get positive feedback and work out some of the kinks? ;-) You mean that all of these posts I'm reading from people who think they are experts on the '67 Lotus, let alone were alive in 1967 and racing the F1 circuit are giving expert testimony for an Alpha release? Really! Let's not even get into that linear/non-linear debacle... I'm sure something good will come out of all of this, but not only is the technology roller coaster fun, so is reading all of the debates in this newsgroup! I hope that never stops! Long live Alpha-release demos (just like CPR)!!! Oooooh...did I say that? Smells like a successful retail release in the future, me thinks. :-) Kyle Stevens P.S. Hi, Marc! Long time no talkie!

<snip> <snip> Then cut bait <snip> and run... <snip> Kyle Stevens

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> On Sun, 19 Apr 1998 22:09:00 -0700, "Marc J. Nelson" > >GPL is Alpha...I, for one, hope this excelleration of the technology- > >roller-coaster never stops...It's too much damn fun! =) > Marc, > What, you mean that this ISN'T a demo of the final version? Oh my > god, what good is it? I mean, really, releasing something just to get > positive feedback and work out some of the kinks? ;-) > You mean that all of these posts I'm reading from people who think > they are experts on the '67 Lotus, let alone were alive in 1967 and > racing the F1 circuit are giving expert testimony for an Alpha > release? Really! Let's not even get into that linear/non-linear > debacle... > I'm sure something good will come out of all of this, but not only is > the technology roller coaster fun, so is reading all of the debates in > this newsgroup! I hope that never stops! Long live Alpha-release > demos (just like CPR)!!! Oooooh...did I say that? > Smells like a successful retail release in the future, me thinks. :-) > Kyle Stevens > P.S. Hi, Marc! Long time no talkie!

RESPONSE: As a matter of common courtesy, Kyle, one should always check their facts before trying to be sarcastic, otherwise you might come off looking like an ass. No. I've never driven a Lotus 49 at Zandvoort, but it might interest you to know that one of my brothers has restored sveral vintage racing cars, including Lotus 49b's, 25's, 33's, one 38, several Gurney Indy Eagles, one A.J. Foyt Coyote, a whole slew of March chasis and quite a few Penskes. They were all in mint running condition when he was finished with them, and I've had the privilige of plunking my rear end into those narrow, cramped***pits and having a bit of (very careful) fun. Now, that doesn't make me a qualified F1 pilot by a damned long site, but I sure know a hell of a lot more about how a real vintage race car feels than someone who gets their info from reading blurbs off the back of a game box. So sue me. As for all you other folks who responded negatively to my criticism of GPL, it appears not one of you picked up on the post's true message. Well, that's my fault. All I can say is, try reading something besides juvenile oriented *** magazines to get a picture of what a financial crisis software manufacturers have worked themselves into.

Y'know Achim, sometimes I wonder myself! :-) No, actually it can be quite fun as long as you don't take the disagreements too seriously. I enjoy the occasional good discussions, and like SPRTSIMS, have made some good friends here. The more common disagreements you have to laugh about and pour some petrol onto the flames :-) Cheers! John

John, Did you say this is "fun"? Did you miss school the day they covered that particular word from the dictionary?!! ;-) Achim, I fully agree with you! Mike.

On Mon, 20 Apr 1998 22:12:59 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >That's odd, because I could swear that GPL isn't even getting close to >30-40 fps in the current demo with VooDoo2 and a PII-300. I would >guestimate the frame rate to be about half that with all detail turned >on. While it's smooth, smooth doesn't mean fast. WOW. I've seen games play at 15-20 fps, and this doesn't feel like it. GPL doesn't "chop-up" anywhere, no matter what I do. I have seen to stuttering or pauses, or any chopiness. Thats why I thought it feels like 30 fps+. I wish they would throw frame rate counters on these things. If you are correct that it is currently running at around 15-20 fps (half of what I said), even though the demo is not optimized - I think the final with full AI will be even slower than my guess. Marc. -------- To replay via e-mail, remove "spam." from the beginning of my e-mail address (Tyring to avoid junk mail)

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> > Y'know Achim, sometimes I wonder myself! :-) No, actually it can be > > quite fun as long as you don't take the disagreements too seriously. I > > enjoy the occasional good discussions, and like SPRTSIMS, have made > > some good friends here. > John, > Did you say this is "fun"? Did you miss school the day they covered that > particular word from the dictionary?!! ;-) > Achim, I fully agree with you!

Well I think it's fun here myself. In amongst the constantly raging shitfights is a whole lot of great and relevent info. And I think the only good thing that came from CPR for eg was the massive shitfight it caused and the opportunity for some to showcase their great sense of humour and sarcastic abilities! Now with GPL you have a few critical individuals but the responses to there posts give a good impression and often lead to more extensive discussions or new subjects altogether. So where's the lack of "fun". Btw, I missed the definition of "fun" when I was at school because at the time I was throwing my unwanted lunch sandwiches at the teacher. So what did I miss?

> What, you mean that this ISN'T a demo of the final version? Oh my > god, what good is it? I mean, really, releasing something just to get > positive feedback and work out some of the kinks? ;-) How dare they, eh?! Many of whom weren't even a gleam in their daddy's eye (I can't remember where I got that quote...my apologies)! ;) What's good is that I feel GPL (and possibly NHRA) will either signal a wakeup call to those who listen, or a death nell to those that don't. Papyrus promised to "raise_the_bar" in technology by way of physics, and although they got a few items backwards (alpha woes), GPL will no doubt be a huge success (in as far as simmers go). Raise the bar indeed!...They launched it through the friggin' roof! Yepper! Can't wait! Yes it has...How's your little (growing daily) girl doing? =) Cheers! Marc -- (please remove '_*_' when replying) Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:03:00 GMT, "Mike Laskey" >Achim, I fully agree with you! So when are we going to see you on SPRTSIMS again then? <g> Cheers, Richard

Hi Mike, I have to agree with you and Achim ;-) Cheers Mark

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>> Y'know Achim, sometimes I wonder myself! :-) No, actually it can be >> quite fun as long as you don't take the disagreements too seriously. I >> enjoy the occasional good discussions, and like SPRTSIMS, have made >> some good friends here. >John, >Did you say this is "fun"? Did you miss school the day they covered that >particular word from the dictionary?!! ;-) >Achim, I fully agree with you! >Mike.

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>RESPONSE: As a matter of common courtesy, Kyle, one should always check >their facts before trying to be sarcastic, otherwise you might come off >looking like an ass. No. I've never driven a Lotus 49 at Zandvoort, but >it might interest you to know that one of my brothers has restored >sveral vintage racing cars, including Lotus 49b's, 25's, 33's, one 38, >several Gurney Indy Eagles, one A.J. Foyt Coyote, a whole slew of March >chasis and quite a few Penskes. They were all in mint running condition >when he was finished with them, and I've had the privilige of plunking >my rear end into those narrow, cramped***pits and having a bit of >(very careful) fun. Now, that doesn't make me a qualified F1 pilot by a >damned long site, but I sure know a hell of a lot more about how a real >vintage race car feels than someone who gets their info from reading >blurbs off the back of a game box. So sue me. >As for all you other folks who responded negatively to my criticism of >GPL, it appears not one of you picked up on the post's true message. >Well, that's my fault. All I can say is, try reading something besides >juvenile oriented *** magazines to get a picture of what a financial >crisis software manufacturers have worked themselves into.

I'm not sure what facts you're referring to, but since I'm not part of the "back o' the box" crowd and don't form my opinions from any *** magazine (even ones without the busty ads), and since I don't know you personally (no facts there), I'll continue to rant sarcastically. But hey, I hold a real job, have a family, and know a thing or two about software and hardware sales (at least in the U.S.), so I'll comment on the economic discussion you began... To be courteous, I went back and re-read your message. Economic minded as it is, you neglect some very basic issues, such as to provide a sim of the quality and caliber you want on a PC system of say, three years ago, is not a possibility. Remember, it's not just graphics capabilities that have increased, but sheer processing power to run the number of routines written around the laws of physics. Now is that a crime, or will companies like Papyrus/Sierra see diminishing returns? I don't think so. As long as there are enough people with the hardware to run the newest simulations (or with parents to buy for them), then the sim software category will continue to grow. In my line of work we see more high-powered computer systems being bought for the home than ever before, and we're talking AGP for people who don't even know what it is, let alone what Voodoo or Rendition or Riva are. Hard core simmers will always debate the merits of authenticity and always yearn for the next upgrade to their PC if it gets them those blessed frame rate increases. And since the major sales indicators show no signs of decreasing home computer sales in the near future, the Papyrus' of the world have every right to expect that their software will run on the majority of systems out there. I know your a bit sensitive about getting "sarcastic" comments, but with people taking the GPL Alpha Pre-Release so seriously, I have to find some humor in the debate going on in r.a.s. And I'm impressed and jealous with your access to vintage racing machines (I've only got the Palm Springs Vintage Auto Show to go to). But since you're "driven" (sorry) to comment on the economics and not the driving model, I'll cut you some slack (like I have any say in the matter) and apologize if I grouped you into the wrong GPL-Debate category. I hope you'll find the final release to your liking, and if not, you can always cut loose and run (or return the software to your nearest participating retailer). Sincerely , Kyle

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 23:03:00 GMT, "Mike Laskey" >Did you say this is "fun"? Did you miss school the day they covered that >particular word from the dictionary?!! ;-) Different culture Mike - people up here think that San Marino scoring after 10 seconds is way more fun than the seven England banged in shortly afterwards. We like penalty shootouts involving certain Germanic nations and cricket is only fun as a vehicle for certain beverage oriented nations to demonstrate their superiority. Things falling into the "not fun" category are, in no particular order, traffic jams on the M25, rental cars braking down, trying to keep up with you on unfamiliar country roads(!), ladies with moustaches and Hearts end of season form. Yeah, I think I've got a pretty good handle on the usage of "fun" :-) Cheers! John

John, hahaha! Ladies with moustaches. Yes. Give me a call some time and I'll tell you a story about that! As for trying to keep up with me on unfamiliar country roads, what, are you talking about? Were you having difficulty back there, John?! <g> Mike. ps. cricket is never fun.

Sure, I enjoy reading some of the posts here, but at the end of the day, generally there are better things to be doing instead of posting messages. However, I am involved in a big way in implementing our global company's email system so it's probably no wonder that having spent yet another 12 hour day working on messaging that I don't feel too enthused when I get home! Mike.

Richard, On a scale of 1 to Never, it's probably closer to Never :-) Mike.

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> John, > hahaha! Ladies with moustaches. Yes. Give me a call some time and I'll > tell you a story about that! > As for trying to keep up with me on unfamiliar country roads, what, are you > talking about? Were you having difficulty back there, John?! <g> > Mike. > ps. cricket is never fun.

Well, I must say I'm not a big fan of cricket (even though my uncle played for Australia - sin!), but I must sympathise with you poor pommy's of late. Abysmal! :) And what's the world coming to with these ***y Paki's?

Hey - isn't a "pom" an Englishman? If so then I should call you a Kiwi :-) Cheers! John

Still, could be worse. John's had a load of Russian nuclear waste dumped on his door-step today. Nice one! ;-) Mike.

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> > Well, I must say I'm not a big fan of cricket (even though my uncle > >played for Australia - sin!), but I must sympathise with you poor > >pommy's of late. Abysmal! :) And what's the world coming to with these > >***y Paki's? > Hey - isn't a "pom" an Englishman? If so then I should call you a Kiwi > :-)

Well, they're no good at cricket either! LOL. I little presumptuous of me to assume someone with the ".uk" on the end of their email address was a pom. So let me have another guess. Scottish?

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 01:33:00 -0700, "Marc J. Nelson" >> What, you mean that this ISN'T a demo of the final version? Oh my >> god, what good is it? I mean, really, releasing something just to get >> positive feedback and work out some of the kinks? ;-) >How dare they, eh?! Well, I am glad they release stuff early for us, but for god sake, why the hell does GPL dial my freakin' modem every time I launch it, then, once connected, crash (sometimes crashing my whole computer)? I have a new Dell 300 with 64 meg RAM... Quake2, N2, ICR2... none of these crashes it. But this little GPL devil weeds it's way in an I am actually getting afraid to mess with it anymore! One time I did get it not to dial the modem (I don't know how)- I will say that while the scenery looked good, but the framerate has a *very* long way to go, and I, for one, can do without the pretend arms and so forth- I just want a sim.