Linear/Non-linear very unscientific analysis: this isn't a troll either.

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> Some steering wheel theorists tell me to use full non-linear, others tell me > go full linear, then another one tells me to go 3/4 linear. I've been > experimenting with all these settings and here are my personal findings: > Full Non-linear steering -- great for controlling the car on a straight, > lousy for cornering. > Full linear steering -- great for cornering, lousy for controlling a car on > the straight. > Half linear Half Non-linear -- lousy for cornering, so so for controlling a > car on the straight. > 3/4 Linear -- a little better than so so for cornering, a little lousier > than so so for controlling a car on the straight. > With linear steering, I hold my wheel by my finger tips on the straights > because using a full hand grab on the wheel causes me to manhandle it, > resulting in too much overcorrection. > You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder > around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar Pro > Wheel just does not do the job. > I have to congratulate those people who can center their wheels precisely > without the help of real steering torque. Wouldn't it be nice though to be > able to let the steering torque unwind the wheel exactly to center? I > wouldn't have to worry about overcorrecting would I now?

Charles, I had some troubles with the steering at first. I use a pretty well broken in GP-1 wheel and have found that you pretty much have to use linear steering with the slider all the way to the left. At least that's what works for me. Yes, it is twitchy at first, but it is supposed to be that way. You will get used to it after awhile and you'll be amazed at how much control you do have. Good luck, all the best, Mike -- Michael S. Davis Creative Media-Works Computer/Audio/Video Convergence "from Creative minds spring Creative solutions." http://www.creativemedia-works.com

Some steering wheel theorists tell me to use full non-linear, others tell me go full linear, then another one tells me to go 3/4 linear. I've been experimenting with all these settings and here are my personal findings: Full Non-linear steering -- great for controlling the car on a straight, lousy for cornering. Full linear steering -- great for cornering, lousy for controlling a car on the straight. Half linear Half Non-linear -- lousy for cornering, so so for controlling a car on the straight. 3/4 Linear -- a little better than so so for cornering, a little lousier than so so for controlling a car on the straight. With linear steering, I hold my wheel by my finger tips on the straights because using a full hand grab on the wheel causes me to manhandle it, resulting in too much overcorrection. You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar Pro Wheel just does not do the job. I have to congratulate those people who can center their wheels precisely without the help of real steering torque. Wouldn't it be nice though to be able to let the steering torque unwind the wheel exactly to center? I wouldn't have to worry about overcorrecting would I now?

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> You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder > around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar Pro > Wheel just does not do the job. > I have to congratulate those people who can center their wheels precisely > without the help of real steering torque. Wouldn't it be nice though to be > able to let the steering torque unwind the wheel exactly to center? I > wouldn't have to worry about overcorrecting would I now?

hmm, that would make it hard to steer, wouldn't it? I've got a 2 year old T2, and the steering bungy thing is still nice and tight, centering the wheel to within about 1 degree when i let go. I find it a breeze to drive straight in GPL, and have perfect control over my cornering too, even though my soundcard gameport has about 3-4% oscillation in the values it reads from my wheel pots. I've got the linearity set to about 25% from the left, I like having the linear response, but need a small amount of non-linearity to help with driving in a straight line. When I think about having a wheel that doesn't straighten up right, I think "eeek!" :) i'd start having much more difficulty steering straight. Have you tried pulling off the cover and fiddling around with trying to tighten up the bungy cord somehow? In the meantime keep practising your very fine control steering, you'll find you get better at it over time. The skill will come in handy when you fix up your steering. cheers, Grant.

> (snip) > When I think about having a wheel that doesn't straighten up right, I > think "eeek!" :) i'd start having much more difficulty steering > straight. > Have you tried pulling off the cover and fiddling around with trying > to tighten up the bungy cord somehow? Hehe..I dropped my T2 to the floor once, and the steering axle broke. Tried gluing it, but that plastic never wants to be glued...So I went up to the workshop, found a wheel from a Tiga FF2000, some aluminium, and I took it all over to the lathe. I have now got a very good feeling wheel, and I use no *** bands at all, no springs, just a max lock stop. Either have nice, tight bungy cords, or throw 'em out:)) Good Advice! I had to work a whole lot of overtime last week, and was off GPL for 4 days, and boy, was that car nervous the first ten laps!!!:)) Cheers, Matt -- Matthew Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars [link lost in import: /~kareknut/]

> You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder > around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar Pro > Wheel just does not do the job. ROFL! Oh how grand this is! Overlooked this for over a week aye Charles? Can't wait for your next post! I think I'll start compiling data on you. Charle's brilliance to date; 1/ Says GPL is arcade and anyone good at it is an arcade driver. LOL 2/ Says GP2 is more realistic with opposite lock help and puts GPL to shame. LOL 3/ Claims steering response delay indicating poor fps and thus a poor interporation of GPL. LOL 4/ Tells us about his wheel with 5 - 10 deg of slop. LOL ROFL. Keep 'em comin' Charley!

>You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder >around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar Pro >Wheel just does not do the job. Buy a TSW or one of the other, more expensive precision-engineered units. ---- Regards, Bruce.

I STILL thought you left... BB

I thought you left... BB

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> > You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder > > around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar Pro > > Wheel just does not do the job. > ROFL! Oh how grand this is! Overlooked this for over a week aye > Charles? Can't wait for your next post! I think I'll start compiling > data on you. > Charle's brilliance to date; > 1/ Says GPL is arcade and anyone good at it is an arcade driver. LOL > 2/ Says GP2 is more realistic with opposite lock help and puts GPL to > shame. LOL > 3/ Claims steering response delay indicating poor fps and thus a poor > interporation of GPL. LOL > 4/ Tells us about his wheel with 5 - 10 deg of slop. LOL > ROFL. Keep 'em comin' Charley!

Hi Byron First of all, I think Carles` earlier postings here left a lot to be desired, especially in the attitude department, he has however adjusted that for some reason (don`t know why and I don`t really care) and for that he at least deserves that replies to his postings/questions contains something worth reading, IMHO It`s not just you Byron, (you were just an easy pick :-), I see some of the same attitude towards i.e. ymenard from time to time and he REALLY has adjusted his attitude. I just think there is enough garbage flying back and forth without people having to keep it up when there is no need for it (is there ever ? :-) In my opinion Charles you have some bad controller problem, not uncommon with early Nascar PRO/F1 wheels, the bungee cord goes AWOL in a "very" short time and you get very twitchy stearing, not speculation on my part, I`m a Thrustmaster dealer so I "should" know, I`ve changed enough of them already including the one on my personal wheel. Contact Thrustmaster directly or the place where you bought it, they are aware of the problem and are doing something about it You could also try adding a gamecard, the Thrustmaster ACM is a good choice and I`m sure there are others too, it helped me a lot, didn`t drive any faster, but my consistency went way up Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

> You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wonder > around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nascar > Pro > Wheel just does not do the job. um, is it that hard to change the bungiee cords to new, stiffer ones?p.s. when I had a T2 I felt the same way

Agree 100% byron. This Charlie boy really needs to get his story straight, cause I'm getting sick of his bullshit.

I have found out that linear steering is equal pressure or equal turn-in ratio to the amount of input. Non-linear is ideal for steering wheels, the tires turn very little when the steering wheel is turned for example when within 50% of it's center (25% in both directions). As you turn the steering wheel past it's 25% limit in one direction, the tires will turn more. Contrary to what is said, linear for keyboards & non-linear for steering wheels. My guess is you would want non-linear on ovals tracks & linear on street/road courses. >Some steering wheel theorists tell me to use full non-linear, others tell me >go full linear, then another one tells me to go 3/4 linear. I've been >experimenting with all these settings and here are my personal findings:

I thought I left too, but that Byron Forbes guy irritates me so much that I think I'll stick around and feed his egomania a little more. >I thought you left... >BB

> You know, I could use a really good steering wheel that doesn't wond > er > around 5-10 degrees from center, due to limp *** bands. My Nasca > r Pro > Wheel just does not do the job. Exactly!!! do you think this could be your problem? I think a lot of these posts about linear or non linear are overlooking one thing, the quality of the controller being used. If you have a good quality controller, and its calibrated correctly, you really should not have too much trouble going the right way on the straights or the corners? NB: I think full linear control, eg:- all the way to the *left*, or very near to the left, is better as this gives a much more *responsive* feel to the handling. Non-linear & Linear is like comparing analogue to digital controllers. Digital is great for *on* & *off*, but analogue is great for precise control and a progressive response. But ultimately, it all depends on the quality of the equipment you use, and the expertise of the person using the equipment. Buy a quality wheel, practise lots, see the difference? *Peter* 8-)

> I thought I left too, but that Byron Forbes guy irritates me so much that I > think I'll stick around and feed his egomania a little more. Swell. BB

>Exactly!!! do you think this could be your problem? I think a lot of >these posts about linear or non linear are overlooking one thing, the >quality of the controller being used. Yeah but you are also overlooking a few things. First we can't all just go to the store, choose whatever control device there is that pleases us and then go home and use it. We have to pay for the damn thing!!! For some of you it's no big deal, but I have enough on my hands just trying to assemble a system that will run all those new games! I've just bought a brand new Canopus Pure3D! Can't buy a new gadget every week! The other thing you're overlooking (IMO) is that there are other games out there that do well with cheaper steering wheels. I've never had any problems with GP2 or F1RS (both are games wich I've played a lot with). I usually don't have any problems with other more "arcadish" racing titles (I've played a bunch of them, but never for a really long time). The only problems I'm having at this time is with papy's sims. Some of you will say that it's because all those other sims/games don't hold as much realism as GPL does, but what if maybe they're not doing things quite right... Fireproof suit on... A. Renault

> >Exactly!!! do you think this could be your problem? I think a lot of > >these posts about linear or non linear are overlooking one thing, the > >quality of the controller being used. snip > The other thing you're overlooking (IMO) is that there are other games > out there that do well with cheaper steering wheels. I've never had > any problems with GP2 or F1RS (both are games wich I've played a lot > with). I usually don't have any problems with other more "arcadish" There is NO difference in functionality between the cheapest TM wheel and the ECCI (sp?) gold-plated wheels. The latter just keeps working longer, but they are simply joysticks. I use the TM GP1 (cheap too) and couldn't say that it doesn't work as good in GPL than it does in F1RS. l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

No, no and NO again <g> Keyboards are a completely separate issue since the on/off digital inputs are being pre-processed to simulate an analgue input. It may well be that keyboard works best with a linear setting (don't know - never tried it and never will) but it has nothing to do with whether linear or non-linear is suitable for a wheel. Non-linear is primarily designed as an aid for joystick users because it is very hard to make small accurate movements around the centre position of most joysticks. With a decent wheel this should not be an issue. A direct relationship between amount of steering wheel movement and front wheel movement makes cornering one hell of a lot more precise, especially in slower corners. The big drawback with non-linear steering is that whilst you may get smooth precise steering for a few degrees either side of centre, it then changes to quite large movements. If this happens as you're turning into a corner with GPL then there is a high chance of inducing a snap spin. The main problem with linear steering is controlling the car on the straights or through very fast corners. Whilst this can be learnt with practice, the ease of doing so does depend on the quality of the wheel. Cheers, Richard

Just in response to your world cup crap, I hate footy, so it really doesn't bother me who wins.

Byron, I bought my Nascar Pro Wheel a month ago. I spent good money on it. supposed to do? Should I mail order one of those 700 buck things with a Momo wheel on it? Tell me Byron, since you are so much smarter than me and so much more enlightened about racing simulations than me or anyone else in this NG. > Believe me I want to get off Charles back. But it seems every time he >posts he simply highlights more of his ignorance. He has been whining >about the steering since day 1 and just now reveales he has a wheel that >is ready for the trash can. What would you or him expect?

I've already tried this, it seemed like a good idea at the time... Man I thought I was drunk or something... But now I find that GPL is'nt "pushing the limits of racing reality" as well as CPR does... ;o) A. Renault

> Bryon, you must belong to a special breed of kangaroo. Usually these > animals are nice with people. Once again your wrong! Kanga's usually rip you to shreads with their hind legs. Unless born in captivity. Maybe I was born in the wild. I certainly live in the wild now!

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> Hi Byron > First of all, I think Carles` earlier postings here left a lot to be > desired, especially in the attitude department, he has however adjusted > that for some reason (don`t know why and I don`t really care) and for > that he at least deserves that replies to his postings/questions > contains something worth reading, IMHO > It`s not just you Byron, (you were just an easy pick :-), I see some of > the same attitude towards i.e. ymenard from time to time and he REALLY > has adjusted his attitude. I just think there is enough garbage flying > back and forth without people having to keep it up when there is no need > for it (is there ever ? :-)

Believe me I want to get off Charles back. But it seems every time he posts he simply highlights more of his ignorance. He has been whining about the steering since day 1 and just now reveales he has a wheel that is ready for the trash can. What would you or him expect?

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> The other thing you're overlooking (IMO) is that there are other games > out there that do well with cheaper steering wheels. I've never had > any problems with GP2 or F1RS (both are games wich I've played a lot > with). I usually don't have any problems with other more "arcadish" > racing titles (I've played a bunch of them, but never for a really > long time). The only problems I'm having at this time is with papy's > sims. Some of you will say that it's because all those other > sims/games don't hold as much realism as GPL does, but what if maybe > they're not doing things quite right... Fireproof suit on... > A. Renault

Here's a suggestion Antoine. Get the CPR demo and when you can do a lap at speed at Laguna Seca, come back to GPL and it should be a breeze :)

> Byron, I bought my Nascar Pro Wheel a month ago. I spent good money on it. > supposed to do? Should I mail order one of those 700 buck things with a > Momo wheel on it? Tell me Byron, since you are so much smarter than me and > so much more enlightened about racing simulations than me or anyone else in > this NG. Pull it apart, get to know it, fix it!

> Believe me I want to get off Charles back. But it seems every time he > posts he simply highlights more of his ignorance. He has been whining > about the steering since day 1 and just now reveales he has a wheel that > is ready for the trash can. What would you or him expect? Hi Byron Good to see you didn`t take it personal, it was, like I said, never ment as an attack on you. My point is; if two people have a heated argument, to the point of being abusive or at least very close, then one of them decides that this is leading nowhere and tries a different approach and start using his brain, what good is this if the other person just keeps on being abusive ? Now I have of course read his reply to you on this post, and the fact that he chose to reply to you in a very agrssive manner and did not reply to any post AFAIK that suggested a fix for his problem could mean that he IS out to pick a fight, but I still think that when people make an effort to move away from fighting and into a more constructive way of communicating, we should give them a chance. Maybe I`m just getting too old to fight :-) Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN PS I think Norway HUMILIATED Brazil the last time we met in a footy match (last year) 4-2 I belive the score was, should`ve been more :-), Norway WILL be World Cup Champions this year (err, maybe not :-)

> Byron, I bought my Nascar Pro Wheel a month ago. I spent good money on it. > supposed to do? Should I mail order one of those 700 buck things with a > Momo wheel on it? Tell me Byron, since you are so much smarter than me and > so much more enlightened about racing simulations than me or anyone else in > this NG. If your current wheel doesn't work for you with GPL, then you should know, that NO wheel will work for you with GPL. What difference do you expect from a different wheel? It's just a pot signalling different wheel positions. There are more expensive wheels, but their price is only justified because of their durability. BTW, no flame, trying to help...honestly! (You have to be carefull these days!) l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

says... Perhaps that's part of your problem, Charles.....the *** bands/cleaning the pots. I've had my ancient T1 ever since they were released. I have religiously cleaned all the potentiometers on a regular basis, adjusted tension in the shock cord and generally carried out a regular maintenance routine. Over the years I've had to replace broken pedal springs, tension-less shock cord and a steering potentiometer, but the unit has performed beautifully, in all manner of driving simulations.....including ALL Papyrus sims, both of Crammonds, several "no-namers" and now the GPL demo. -- Regards, --- Bruce. The Grand Prix Legends Historic Motor Racing Club:- http://www.netspeed.com.au/brucek/legends/

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 12:30:17 -0400, "Charles Mak" >Byron, I buy a computer game to entertain myself. Same goes for a steering >wheel. Now, why should I start becoming steering wheel technician because >of some game published by Papyrus/Sierra? July already? :) I must be several months behind you guys... I'm sure what I've seen and played is a pre-beta demo available primarily from www.ocr.com. I would have thought that if your wheel is playing up after only 1 month, TM will replace the whole thing... A month isn't long, but you can't expect anything mechanical (with moving parts) to not need attention. That's like buying a car to get from A to B and moaning about brake or tyre wear. I've played GPL with a T2. Seems ok to me. I can understand this.. What I don't understand is the constant amount of critism. :) You wish to be entertained by GPL. Through control inputs and the complexity of the physics you haven't been. The moment you recieved some "surprised" feedback from people who like GPL, it suddenly has become a war! Why you need to go as far as the "Papy lovers" I don't know... I would love Papyrus just watching someone else play their sims, even if I'd never tried myself. Quality spawns quality, and it shines through. Personally I have never caught the Quake or Red Alert bug. I would consider myself interested in those style of games but they become boring very quickly. I go back and fire up N2 etc.. I don't feel the need to start telling people what should be in a obviously fantastic game which I can't get it to... Ok they're from a different genre, but I could write pages on how to make GP2 into a racing sim. As for going back to Gp2, go for it!! If it gives you the jollies then that's all that matters!? GP2 has always been poor in my view because of absolutely terrible frame rate, as with TOCA. You can't get anything fun (IMO) out of a slow-mo product. When people don't moan about this aspect you know they are _not_ after a realistic game. Other than that the way that GP2 feels so stuck to the road is just far to "hovercraft" for me. Once you turn all the aids off and you find yourself in what appears to be an F1 car of GPL-difficulty proportions. But then the darn frame rate bites you! It's a vicious circle, and it does appear to me at least, that many of the helps seem to merely help keep you from spinning mainly because of the lack of fluidity. I get a real feeling I am only driving the car a 1/3rd of the time. Jon.