I am a retired Police Officer.
I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what
they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour.
If you watch the movie GRAND PRIX ----- available on video Disk
somewhere -------- in letterbox form -------- I also have MY COPY in
BOTH FORMS!!!! :-) -------- you will see that NO ONE in their RIGHT
MINDS wants to FIGHT the WHEEL like the GPL simulation wants you to
believe.
Jim Clark, Graham Hill and all the others were brave men ------- but
not stupid. They valued their life as much as anyone -------- and I
think this simulation has everyone thinking these were nothing more
than barely guided missles ------ which they were not.
A FORD GALAXIE or DODGE CORONET at one hundred and twenty miles per
hour has more control than the simulation has -------- and I am
beginning to think this is a bit laughable to say the least.
I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and make it real
for a change ------- rather than trying to convince us these cars were
really like this -------- when they were not.
Watching GRAND PRIX will give you FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what it was
like then (it was filmed just a year before) and was filmed over the
same tracks esentially ------ that will be in the sim --------- I
GUARANTEE YOU you don't see these guys countersteering powerslides and
all that other bullshit PAPYRUS is saying went on then.
THAT kind of stuff SLOWS YOU DOWN --------- not make you faster!! HA
I have also had the enjoyment of "hog wrestling" ICR2 as well
---------- interestingly enough ------------- the sim behaves much the
same way as GPL does now.
ARE THEY GOING TO SAY THAT IS THE WAY THE INDY CARS BEHAVE??
Of course not ------------- they couldn't get away with THAT
---------- but maybe they can blow enough smoke up out asses with GPL
to make us believe them .
If you repeat the same thing enough times------- you can convince
yourself of anything!!!!!
Retired policeman claims GPL handling is unrealistically loose
A retired police officer argued that the GPL demo's twitchy handling could not be realistic, citing his experience and the film Grand Prix, and some older posters agreed. Others replied that period drivers were smooth and would have crashed driving the way simmers did, that the demo used default setups, and that steering linearity settings and a good controller made the car manageable.
Automated summary.
I think that I agree with you. I have a book with quite a few pictures of GP
racing from the late 50's and early 60's -- none of them show cars as
crossed up as GPL would have you believe was normal. The cars couldn't have
been quite this difficult to get around the track in. Of course, they also
regularly killed one or two drivers a year (or more) back then!
--
Doug Gordon
(Remove "nospam." from e-mail address)
>I am a retired Police Officer.
>I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what
>they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour.
>If you watch the movie GRAND PRIX ----- available on video Disk
>somewhere -------- in letterbox form -------- I also have MY COPY in
>BOTH FORMS!!!! :-) -------- you will see that NO ONE in their RIGHT
>MINDS wants to FIGHT the WHEEL like the GPL simulation wants you to
>believe.
>Jim Clark, Graham Hill and all the others were brave men ------- but
>not stupid. They valued their life as much as anyone -------- and I
>think this simulation has everyone thinking these were nothing more
>than barely guided missles ------ which they were not.
>A FORD GALAXIE or DODGE CORONET at one hundred and twenty miles per
>hour has more control than the simulation has -------- and I am
>beginning to think this is a bit laughable to say the least.
>I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and make it real
>for a change ------- rather than trying to convince us these cars were
>really like this -------- when they were not.
>Watching GRAND PRIX will give you FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what it was
>like then (it was filmed just a year before) and was filmed over the
>same tracks esentially ------ that will be in the sim --------- I
>GUARANTEE YOU you don't see these guys countersteering powerslides and
>all that other bullshit PAPYRUS is saying went on then.
>THAT kind of stuff SLOWS YOU DOWN --------- not make you faster!! HA
>I have also had the enjoyment of "hog wrestling" ICR2 as well
>---------- interestingly enough ------------- the sim behaves much the
>same way as GPL does now.
>ARE THEY GOING TO SAY THAT IS THE WAY THE INDY CARS BEHAVE??
>Of course not ------------- they couldn't get away with THAT
>---------- but maybe they can blow enough smoke up out asses with GPL
>to make us believe them .
>If you repeat the same thing enough times------- you can convince
>yourself of anything!!!!!
Quoted text (44 lines)
> I am a retired Police Officer. > I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what > they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour. > If you watch the movie GRAND PRIX ----- available on video Disk > somewhere -------- in letterbox form -------- I also have MY COPY in > BOTH FORMS!!!! :-) -------- you will see that NO ONE in their RIGHT > MINDS wants to FIGHT the WHEEL like the GPL simulation wants you to > believe. > Jim Clark, Graham Hill and all the others were brave men ------- but > not stupid. They valued their life as much as anyone -------- and I > think this simulation has everyone thinking these were nothing more > than barely guided missles ------ which they were not. > A FORD GALAXIE or DODGE CORONET at one hundred and twenty miles per > hour has more control than the simulation has -------- and I am > beginning to think this is a bit laughable to say the least. > I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and make it real > for a change ------- rather than trying to convince us these cars were > really like this -------- when they were not. > Watching GRAND PRIX will give you FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what it was > like then (it was filmed just a year before) and was filmed over the > same tracks esentially ------ that will be in the sim --------- I > GUARANTEE YOU you don't see these guys countersteering powerslides and > all that other bullshit PAPYRUS is saying went on then. > THAT kind of stuff SLOWS YOU DOWN --------- not make you faster!! HA > I have also had the enjoyment of "hog wrestling" ICR2 as well > ---------- interestingly enough ------------- the sim behaves much the > same way as GPL does now. > ARE THEY GOING TO SAY THAT IS THE WAY THE INDY CARS BEHAVE?? > Of course not ------------- they couldn't get away with THAT > ---------- but maybe they can blow enough smoke up out asses with GPL > to make us believe them . > If you repeat the same thing enough times------- you can convince > yourself of anything!!!!!You're exactly right. It's pretty much agreed that GPL is in the "TOCA
category".....with many, many people considering it an arcade game and NOT a
true simulation. Still looks like fun to me and can't wait to get this Best
Arcade Racing Game Ever!!!!!
Quoted text (44 lines)
>I am a retired Police Officer. >I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what >they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour. >If you watch the movie GRAND PRIX ----- available on video Disk >somewhere -------- in letterbox form -------- I also have MY COPY in >BOTH FORMS!!!! :-) -------- you will see that NO ONE in their RIGHT >MINDS wants to FIGHT the WHEEL like the GPL simulation wants you to >believe. >Jim Clark, Graham Hill and all the others were brave men ------- but >not stupid. They valued their life as much as anyone -------- and I >think this simulation has everyone thinking these were nothing more >than barely guided missles ------ which they were not. >A FORD GALAXIE or DODGE CORONET at one hundred and twenty miles per >hour has more control than the simulation has -------- and I am >beginning to think this is a bit laughable to say the least. >I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and make it real >for a change ------- rather than trying to convince us these cars were >really like this -------- when they were not. >Watching GRAND PRIX will give you FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what it was >like then (it was filmed just a year before) and was filmed over the >same tracks esentially ------ that will be in the sim --------- I >GUARANTEE YOU you don't see these guys countersteering powerslides and >all that other bullshit PAPYRUS is saying went on then. >THAT kind of stuff SLOWS YOU DOWN --------- not make you faster!! HA >I have also had the enjoyment of "hog wrestling" ICR2 as well >---------- interestingly enough ------------- the sim behaves much the >same way as GPL does now. >ARE THEY GOING TO SAY THAT IS THE WAY THE INDY CARS BEHAVE?? >Of course not ------------- they couldn't get away with THAT >---------- but maybe they can blow enough smoke up out asses with GPL >to make us believe them . >If you repeat the same thing enough times------- you can convince >yourself of anything!!!!!>I am a retired Police Officer.
>I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what
>they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour.
What does a ford galaxie have to do with anything?, thats like comparing todays impala's to F1 cars.
I have driven many cars from the 1960's at speeds over a 100mph at that does not make me an expert on driving sims.
I am sure that the cars were driven in control by those drivers who were considered the "worlds best" at the time. But if you were placed in those cars back then you might have had to fight the wheel like in the GPL sim, due to lack of talent.
Why? are any race cars at that level in control? and if they are , lighten it and give me some more hp, becouse I can win if everyone else I'm racing is worried about stability. I'll fight an overpowered car just for the slight advantage over the others.
and it should, it wasn't designed to win races in F1!! -------- and I am
and you know this by looking watching a movie
Correct, and in the game as in real life, the faster laps are completed without locking up the wheels and driving out of control.
--
Kevin Anderson
ICQ # 6769389
Oscar FB Div. 10
I would race these cars in the sim if given the chance in real life. Yes they are dangerous, but it's all how you drive them. I can run consistant and safe laps in the 1m13s range , and I know guys can go faster , but that may be fast enough to win if they can't keep it on the road.
I believe it is possible to become consistant at faster speeds then I am going.
and You don't have to be stupid to race a dangerous vehicle. I have raced 750cc sportbikes and the pro's that race the world gp, and world superbikes are doing close to 200mph with only leathers to protect them. So you see no matter how dangerous the sport there will always be someone to drive them.
Remeber the Group B rally cars also.
--
Kevin Anderson
ICQ # 6769389
Oscar FB Div. 10
And how do you explain the people that race 200mph motorcycles, and those that raced the Group B rally cars?
Correct, no-one should want to fight the wheel. There is no need to do so
in GPL and if you are doing so, you're losing time all round the track
;-)
If you are having trouble controlling the wheel, try altering the
linearity. A fully linear setting makes it the easiest to turn into the
corners accurately and apply minor corrections, but some may find this
too twitchy on the straights without a very good wheel.
No offence, but just maybe Clark and Hill were better drivers than you.
Just because you cannot match their smoothness and speed does not mean
that the sim is automatically wrong.
It could equally be considered laughable to compare to control of a
relatively lowly powered street car to a F1 race car. How many Gs did
your cars pull either longitudinally or laterally? Were these anywhere
near those possible in a Lotus 49?
Grand Prix is a film. There's some real life footage from the 66 season
but all the close up work is with much lower powered F2 cars and usually
they're being towed behind the camera car.... Not really the best example
of driving a 67 car....
Watching Grand Prix will give you a good idea of what a film maker thinks
it is like. If you *really* want to see what it's like then watch footage
of the 67 season.
Correct. Driving GPL smoothly is faster than throwing the car around!
And this is what you're trying to prove? <g>
Look guys, just because you *can* throw the car around in powerslides
does not mean that it is the correct thing to do. The key is to be smooth
and not unsettle the car - that is the way to be consistently fast like
the real guys needed to be to win races.
Powerslides are fun - just look at how much Jimmy Clark enjoyed himself
when racing Lotus Cortinas in the British Saloon Car championships - but
they are neither necessary nor sensible in a Lotus 49. Stop doing them
and learn to *drive* the car ;-)
Let me quote from no less an expert as Jackie Stewart:
"Good racing drivers are smooth, clean and unspectacular. Those drivers
are the ones that people notice least on the track, although they tend to
emerge as the quickest because they are not wasting thei energy sliping
and sliding all over the place..... If you get the car sideways, its
tyres are scrubbing againt the road surface, you're slowing yourself
down."
Bottom line - if you're powersliding in GPL you're wasting time. Don't
judge a sim based on a less than optimal driving technique.
Cheers,
Richard
also
dont forget that you cannot modify the setup of the cars as of yet.
one more thing
if you ever play nascar 2 ICR 2 and the rest , amd you set the realism
to full for damage . I find I drive a LOT less spectacularly
and a lot smoother, no feeling like running the Indianapolis 499!
and wadding it on the backstretch of the last lap
just my 10 cents
> <snipped>
Would force-feedback be better? That would make a massive difference if
you could *FEEL* the car.
With respect, Mark, that statement is incorrect.
The bulk of the "long shots" in the movie are actually race footage. There is no
"toning down" in that area.
If you take a little time to study the movie then you will understand why the
drivers' names were similar to the real drivers.......viz:-
Pete Aaron = Chris Amon.
Jean-Paul Sarti = John Surtees.
and so on.
The helmet colours worn by the actors were the same as those real-life drivers.
This made it easy for the producers to switch between reality and pretend and,
therefore, why the bulk of the external racing shots are genuine........with
particular emphasis on the Monaco race.
> Another: The driving in The Movie is
> toned-down\conservative and therefore not a true representation.
---
Bruce.
(At home)
One little fact that you are all overlooking:-
If Messrs. Clark, Hill, Brabham, Gurney, etc. drove their cars in the same
manner as most of you seem to be "driving" in the mini-demo, then you could bet
your left testicle that Messrs. Clark, Hill, Brabham, Gurney etc. would be
either (a) very dead or (b) very injured.
What do you think they all did.......roared out of the pits and kept the
accelerator floored for the complete lap? Of course their cars would go
tail-happy if they tried to drive flat-out everywhere! But then, they didn't
have the advantage of being able to hit [Shift + R] if they screamed off the
black stuff and into the boondocks.
The balance and setup of the cars may be non-adjustable in the demo but
believe-you-me, it is still the most accurate representation of car dynamics
that we have ever seen in a computer simulation. And this is from somebody who
*HAS* driven open-wheelers in the 1960s and who *IS* an old fart and who *DOES*
have some personal knowledge of the subject.
Stop basing your judgement on a pre-release appetiser: wait until the release of
the sim and *THEN* rip it to shreds if you think something is incorrectly
represented.
> I think that I agree with you. I have a book with quite a few pictures of GP
> racing from the late 50's and early 60's -- none of them show cars as
> crossed up as GPL would have you believe was normal. The cars couldn't have
> been quite this difficult to get around the track in. Of course, they also
> regularly killed one or two drivers a year (or more) back then!
--
Bruce.
(At home)
Ooops!
Sorry, Mark!
Sometimes 'snips' can be confusing :-)
> Hello Bruce. The statement you quote as being incorrect came from
> Byron Forbes.
---
Bruce.
(At home)
> Stop basing your judgement on a pre-release appetiser: wait until the release of
> the sim and *THEN* rip it to shreds if you think something is incorrectly
> represented.
Gotta disagree here Bruce. Better to let people be critical now
before the thing is finished in case someone does uncover flaws. Much
like the case of the 6 speed to 5 speed adjustment :)
However, I think the slipperyness issue is probably impossible to
resolve since, as has been pointed out, the way we simmers drive,
particularly whilst hotlapping, is greatly different from real life
racing or even qualifying. Something that has lead to this debate is the
inability of anyone to get near real life qualifying speeds thus far.
Maybe Papy still need to tweak power, drag, and dare I say it, traction.
Still, it's all so grey since we don't have setup options and the demo
gives ideal traction from all 4 tyres. I think it would have been better
for Papy to model tyres properly and give us setups so they could see
what type of times would be achieved in the hyper competitive hotlapping
we have seen to date. Maybe we'll see a GPL Demo II :))) Considering the
tracks that will be in the full release (great to see the Ring get the
green light) I doubt it would hurt sales much.
Quoted text (16 lines)
> > Bottom line - if you're powersliding in GPL you're wasting time. Don't > > judge a sim based on a less than optimal driving technique. > > Cheers, > > Richard > also > dont forget that you cannot modify the setup of the cars as of yet. > one more thing > if you ever play nascar 2 ICR 2 and the rest , amd you set the realism > to full for damage . I find I drive a LOT less spectacularly > and a lot smoother, no feeling like running the Indianapolis 499! > and wadding it on the backstretch of the last lap > just my 10 centsQuoted text (75 lines)
> > I am a retired Police Officer. > > I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what > > they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour. > > If you watch the movie GRAND PRIX ----- available on video Disk > > somewhere -------- in letterbox form -------- I also have MY COPY in > > BOTH FORMS!!!! :-) -------- you will see that NO ONE in their RIGHT > > MINDS wants to FIGHT the WHEEL like the GPL simulation wants you to > > believe. > > Jim Clark, Graham Hill and all the others were brave men ------- but > > not stupid. They valued their life as much as anyone -------- and I > > think this simulation has everyone thinking these were nothing more > > than barely guided missles ------ which they were not. > > A FORD GALAXIE or DODGE CORONET at one hundred and twenty miles per > > hour has more control than the simulation has -------- and I am > > beginning to think this is a bit laughable to say the least. > > I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and make it real > > for a change ------- rather than trying to convince us these cars were > > really like this -------- when they were not. > > Watching GRAND PRIX will give you FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what it was > > like then (it was filmed just a year before) and was filmed over the > > same tracks esentially ------ that will be in the sim --------- I > > GUARANTEE YOU you don't see these guys countersteering powerslides and > > all that other bullshit PAPYRUS is saying went on then. > > THAT kind of stuff SLOWS YOU DOWN --------- not make you faster!! HA > > I have also had the enjoyment of "hog wrestling" ICR2 as well > > ---------- interestingly enough ------------- the sim behaves much the > > same way as GPL does now. > > ARE THEY GOING TO SAY THAT IS THE WAY THE INDY CARS BEHAVE?? > > Of course not ------------- they couldn't get away with THAT > > ---------- but maybe they can blow enough smoke up out asses with GPL > > to make us believe them . > > If you repeat the same thing enough times------- you can convince > > yourself of anything!!!!! > I agree with you completely. I'm glad to hear from someone over 40 that > wasn't in diapers or not even born in the 60's and actually has some > experience driving older cars. It's amazing all the BS that's coming out > in this n.g. about how people think cars handled back then and how sims > so closely mirrow reality. People, it aint so-- I have hundreds of > hours(admittedly 10 years ago) in helicopter simulators and while they > were a great training tool(especially for instrument flying, engaging > targets and other such training and I EMPHASIZE training) they are not > even close when it comes to the physical demands of actually operating a > aircraft in various real world enviornments. Now back to GPL--I LIKE > IT!!!! but the handling(steering) of the car is not realistic. No car > can be that difficult to steer on straights and be realistic. NO, I > never drove a GP car of that era but I did get some seat time as an > amateur in the late 60's in sports cars(TR-4A, Sunbeam Tiger, and > Formula V's) amd beleive me, if you had to fight the car down the > straight at 130+ you were not about to try to fight a drift through a > turn with such an unstable car. Sure there was plenty of feedback > viberating back up through the steering and constant steering inputs > being applied but when you got it straighten out you hoped you might get > a second to relax. I know many of you will disagree with me, remember > this is my experiencees that formed my opinions. The bottom line is > that GPL is a fun sim with great graphics and a totally different > modeled car than previous sims and it reacts and handles differently > than other race sims as it should but IT IS ONLY A SIMULATION OF THE > REAL THING and we can not and should not try to justify it's playability > based on what we perceive is realistic. If you like it, good--say so and > why; if you don't like it or some aspect of it,good--say so and why, but > why do we have to call each other names if we don't agree with their > opinions. It's so juvenile and counter productive. After all, each side > may change their minds after the final product is realised. Have a > great time with whatever sim you like, I will.Well, Byron old son, we'll agree to disagree.
I think too many people are placing too much importance on something as old as this
"demo". We all know that it is a developmental tool that has been tarted up to give
us a taste of what the final product will offer. It doesn't need this little demo to
enable us to pick any glaring errors (6-speed/5-speed) and I certainly don't think we
are going to be able to deduce exactly what the final dynamics/physics of the cars
will be like.
To me, this is a "stocking filler"....a tid-bit that has been thrown to us by Papyrus
(and for that I thank them....don't get me wrong!) in order to garner some feedback
and also to keep the cries of "WHEN WILL IT BE OUT?!" at bay. I am simply not making
any *major* judgment on what Grand Prix Legends will be like by what this demo offers
and I think that those who do so are being somewhat premature.
(snipped)
--
Bruce.
(At home)
Quoted text (47 lines)
> I am a retired Police Officer. > I am used to wrestling HUGE FORD GALAXIES (in my day --- thats what > they called them) at speeds approaching one hundred mikes per hour. > If you watch the movie GRAND PRIX ----- available on video Disk > somewhere -------- in letterbox form -------- I also have MY COPY in > BOTH FORMS!!!! :-) -------- you will see that NO ONE in their RIGHT > MINDS wants to FIGHT the WHEEL like the GPL simulation wants you to > believe. > Jim Clark, Graham Hill and all the others were brave men ------- but > not stupid. They valued their life as much as anyone -------- and I > think this simulation has everyone thinking these were nothing more > than barely guided missles ------ which they were not. > A FORD GALAXIE or DODGE CORONET at one hundred and twenty miles per > hour has more control than the simulation has -------- and I am > beginning to think this is a bit laughable to say the least. > I think it is time to go back to the drawing board and make it real > for a change ------- rather than trying to convince us these cars were > really like this -------- when they were not. > Watching GRAND PRIX will give you FIRST HAND KNOWLEDGE of what it was > like then (it was filmed just a year before) and was filmed over the > same tracks esentially ------ that will be in the sim --------- I > GUARANTEE YOU you don't see these guys countersteering powerslides and > all that other bullshit PAPYRUS is saying went on then. > THAT kind of stuff SLOWS YOU DOWN --------- not make you faster!! HA > I have also had the enjoyment of "hog wrestling" ICR2 as well > ---------- interestingly enough ------------- the sim behaves much the > same way as GPL does now. > ARE THEY GOING TO SAY THAT IS THE WAY THE INDY CARS BEHAVE?? > Of course not ------------- they couldn't get away with THAT > ---------- but maybe they can blow enough smoke up out asses with GPL > to make us believe them . > If you repeat the same thing enough times------- you can convince > yourself of anything!!!!!snip
> To me, this is a "stocking filler"....a tid-bit that has been thrown to us by Papyrus
> (and for that I thank them....don't get me wrong!) in order to garner some feedback
> and also to keep the cries of "WHEN WILL IT BE OUT?!" at bay. I am simply not making
WHEN WILL IT BE OUT?! ;^)
l8er
ronny
--
Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure,
kiddo?"
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!
<snip>
% In the end I believe its me who needs
% to practice more, if for no other reason than to simply 'get used to it' while
% at the same time I still think the demo driving model is overly loose,
% even given the era it portrays.
From experience of dealing with Papy's default setups, I am holding out
judgement until I can dial in the car to suit my driving style. I think
alot of my problems is that I have an extremely hard time driving with
someone else's setup. Some people are better at adapting their driving
to match a setup, while others are better at adapting a setup to match
their driving style. I fall somewhere in the middle, and in GPL I seem
to be falling all over the map! ;-)
--
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Quoted text (8 lines)
>Correct, no-one should want to fight the wheel. There is no need to do so >in GPL and if you are doing so, you're losing time all round the track >;-) >If you are having trouble controlling the wheel, try altering the >linearity. A fully linear setting makes it the easiest to turn into the >corners accurately and apply minor corrections, but some may find this >too twitchy on the straights without a very good wheel.I'm with you one hundred percent.
