GPL: Sense of speed / realism

I haven't been able to get the GPL demo to work for me (something about a missing svapi.dll file or some such that i haven't been able to figure out). However, I've always found the perception of speed and depth to be a real problem with the other Papy simms that I've played with. I eventually gave up on NASCAR and SODA because I just couldn't get a very good sensation of how fast I was approaching corners so I keep clipping corners or spinning out. (The papy simms that I've tried are also pretty weak at sound, so I keep blowing my engines just to add to the frustration.) I tend to drive by ear and by speed cues.. so engine sounds and a good perception of speed are rather crucial for me. This doesn't really make much sense... Why should a power slide affect one's speed perception? I don't know if you've ever played with Europress' IRC, but it manages to do an excellent job of speed perception and it's modeling of powerslides also pretty good (judging by watching in-car shots of rally car drivers powersliding through corners). I can assure you that it doesn't feel anything like taking the corner at 10mph while actually trying to take it at 90. :) -- Hai Pham

> Hello Greg, I agree with what you noticed in the demo. I can name more >than a few people who don't think there is any need for improvement in GPL, by >the sounds of them, so it makes me happy you were 'brave' enough to post >something :) Do you think the sometimes slow sense of speed is connected to >the powerslide-hungry driving model? Persoanlly I think it's just the poor road textures. Look at the road - there's almost no texture on it, so it has no sense of movement at all. Since the road is the closest (i.e., visually fastest) object to you, this really kills the sensation of speed. Joe

> Yeah, I don't know what goes into programming a sim thats true. But >I also don't know why the sense of speed should be off in the demo. I tried >to express that mabey the complexity of the driving model was the culprit - >from a programming standpoint. But I don't know, obviously. What do you think >it is? How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state the sense of speed? Just a thought.... Cheers, Richard

>Persoanlly I think it's just the poor road textures. Look at the road >- there's almost no texture on it, so it has no sense of movement at >all. Since the road is the closest (i.e., visually fastest) object to >you, this really kills the sensation of speed. You shouldn't be looking at the road textures <g> At least not those near the car... Cheers, Richard

Quoted text (28 lines)

> I have followed with interest the great debate between fans on realism and > those who thought GPL was too hard (driving on ice) or unrealistic to be > fun.... > Anyway, I kinda of find myself sitting on the fence on this one, something > I do a lot of with the lotus ! ;-) > I think the main reason opinions differ on this is caused by the perception > of speed in this game. I think this is an incredibly cool piece of software > but that speed perception could be greatly improved ! At full speed on the > straights I feel like going 80, maybe 100 mph max... > Before i get flamed for lack of experience, I do know rear engines beasts, I > drive a 911 (and take it to the track regularly).. I think the tail out > sequences are very well done, it's just that I get a little dissapointed > *when/why* they happen. Case in point: The last turn before the start finish > line, IMO, because I have spun there quite a lot while I "felt" that > I was going so slow I could have gone faster by foot !!! ;-) or pushed the > car .. Nevertheles, spin city...at a speed which for me felt like 10 mph ! ;-) > (once again I am not blaming the physics, just the lag between the physics > and perception). It's also kinda hard to see the wheels lock, which does not > help. So I think that sim's model is great but that if you think you're doing > 20 mph while the game "knows (better)" you're doing 90, you're gonna spin > when you don't expect it .. some of us will adapt, and some of us will get > dissapointed and criticize the sim....(i'm trying to adapt) Maybe Papy should > improve that part a little and reduce the perception/reality gap... > (Maybe I should find a way to display the speed, too, I did not look, but > still "perception" is the issue) > Just MHO ! Greg.

I definantly remember how hard it was, and still is at times when I get overconfident, to spin under braking into the last corner. I think this has to do with many factors including ideal temps of tyres, too much rear brake bias and suspension settings in the demo. Also, the car is often unstable to start with as you round the right hand kink leading up to it. I have found that to get the car thru safely you need to have the car as balanced as possible, not lock brakes and also be easing off the brakes as you approach the corner.

Quoted text (8 lines)

> > Yeah, I don't know what goes into programming a sim thats true. But > >I also don't know why the sense of speed should be off in the demo. I tried > >to express that mabey the complexity of the driving model was the culprit - > >from a programming standpoint. But I don't know, obviously. What do you think > >it is? > How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state > the sense of speed? Just a thought....

Exactly what I suspect. I always thought CPR was a little overdone/overmagnified though exciting in this reguard.***pit camera views in F1/CART seem about the same as ICR2/GP2 to me. And I dare guesstimate that the view in GPL is the same as ICR2.

>You shouldn't be looking at the road textures <g> At least not those near >the car... Well, I don't specifically LOOK at them, but they are the closest/fastest object, and are really needed to provide a sensation of speed. Look at Redline Racer, for example - it has excelent, well-defined road textures and the sense of speed is superb (even if nothing else about the game is). But the GPL roads are almost completely blank (except for the turn marks in the corners). Notive that the worst sense of speed in GPL comes on the straighaway, when you are moving fastest. The road stands still because it's so plain. Joe

I actually loved the atmosphere generated by CPR. It may not have been exactly true to life, but since more people haven't tried CART than have, is it more important to accurately simulate reality and perhaps disappoint people, or to deliver a rendition of what people believe cART to be? </Rhetorical open-ended question.> IMO the engine roar and impression of speed in CPR was really good, leastaways on the road courses, and hotlapping them was really fun if you disregarded the way the car handled. Strangely enough the ovals totally lacked this impression of speed - wierd. Cheers! John

Quoted text (7 lines)

>> How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state >> the sense of speed? Just a thought.... > Exactly what I suspect. I always thought CPR was a little >overdone/overmagnified though exciting in this reguard.***pit camera >views in F1/CART seem about the same as ICR2/GP2 to me. And I dare >guesstimate that the view in GPL is the same as ICR2.

But then, the sense of speed while actually sitting in a F1 or CART car undoubtedly is greater than the one you get from the inboard camera. And we want to simulate *driving* the cars, not watching TV coverage... For the record, I find the sensation of speed seriously lacking when playing the GPL demo on my iP166 w/o 3D card. But this may be my PC being too slow. ;) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

> Look at Redline Racer, for example To be honest, I'ld rather not :-) I'll agree that some more road - and near roadside detail - would be nice. Personally I find the sensation of speed fine, but I want to have more visual references for braking and, particularly, turn in and apex points. IRL there are loads of these for the choosing whilst in the GPL demo there are only really the tyre marks which suffice for braking into T6 but that's about it. Hopefully there will be more visual references in the final version and these will also provide a better sensation of speed. Cheers, Richard

Quoted text (7 lines)

> But then, the sense of speed while actually sitting in a F1 or CART > car undoubtedly is greater than the one you get from the inboard > camera. And we want to simulate *driving* the cars, not watching TV > coverage... > For the record, I find the sensation of speed seriously lacking when > playing the GPL demo on my iP166 w/o 3D card. But this may be my PC > being too slow. ;)

If "w/o" means without as I'm sure it does then rest assured you have not played the GPL demo yet :) 10fps maybe?

Quoted text (8 lines)

> I'll agree that some more road - and near roadside detail - would be > nice. Personally I find the sensation of speed fine, but I want to have > more visual references for braking and, particularly, turn in and apex > points. IRL there are loads of these for the choosing whilst in the GPL > demo there are only really the tyre marks which suffice for braking into > T6 but that's about it. Hopefully there will be more visual references in > the final version and these will also provide a better sensation of > speed.

I find GPL to be quite ok on this score ie braking markers. The only place you really need a marker is on T4 and you have it. T6 is a matter of how long after straightening the car do you wish to wait and T8 is a matter of revs and/or time in a certain gear. I find this to be true also of ICR2 in most cases. I usually jump on the brakes or ease off at a certain part of a certain gear.

% I'll agree that some more road - and near roadside detail - would be % nice. Personally I find the sensation of speed fine, but I want to have % more visual references for braking and, particularly, turn in and apex % points. IRL there are loads of these for the choosing whilst in the GPL % demo there are only really the tyre marks which suffice for braking into % T6 but that's about it. Hopefully there will be more visual references in % the final version and these will also provide a better sensation of % speed. Well at some tracks, there just weren't any visual reference points. I don't recall who it was or what track, but I think it was about this era (was it Spa?). Anyway one of the great F1 drivers was using an object in the field as his braking reference, he kept getting faster and faster laps times, but he eventually braked too late and crashed out. As it turns out, his reference marker was a cow and it was just moseying along have lunch.... So Papy, any cows in the sim? As to the speed issue... I honestly feel that part of the "lack" of the sensation of speed is the frame rate of the demo. The faster the frame rate (turn off some detail or lower your resolution), the greater the sensation of speed. The eye, is fooled by the "stop-action" of the slower frame rate and is fooled as easily with the "fluid" motion of a fast frame rate. Even this being the case, I do feel that just a tad more attention to the sensation of speed is needed in Papy's sims. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

> How about another angle on this - maybe some of the other sims over state > the sense of speed? Just a thought.... Good thinking Richard, I too have this lack of speed feeling while driving GPL (belive me it`s not the framerate :-) so maybe you`re right, but on the other hand, my sense of speed is not formed only by racing sims, but by a lot of things in real life as well. Strangely enough I tend to feel that the prettier the graphics the more this lack of speed feeling I get, coinsidence ? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

>> For the record, I find the sensation of speed seriously lacking when >> playing the GPL demo on my iP166 w/o 3D card. But this may be my PC >> being too slow. ;) > If "w/o" means without as I'm sure it does then rest assured you have >not played the GPL demo yet :) 10fps maybe? Maybe 12fps, but that could be wishful thinking... ;) I had an impression of how beautiful the demo can look and feel when I played it on my brother's computer. He has a 3Dfx card, the lucky bastard. I went out to buy one today, but a short glimpse at my bank account convinced me to wait until the end of the month. :( -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

> I find GPL to be quite ok on this score ie braking markers. Yep, 'OK, but could do better' on the term report <g> Assuming you mean the billboard, I'm finding it just a little too early for me and it is also a little distant from the track to be ideal. Plenty good enough for the Lotus at least but could be very much improved for the Brabham where you can brake a *lot* later. But it would be nice to have a more definite marker. That way you can visualise your way around the track that much better. When depending on revs for instance you need to completely change your approach depending what car you're in. Cheers, Richard

<snip> % But it would be nice to have a more definite marker. That way you can % visualise your way around the track that much better. When depending on % revs for instance you need to completely change your approach depending % what car you're in. From what I've read and remember seeing, this is the way it was. There wheren't a whole lot of markers for the braking and turning references. Each driver had to "create" his own. I think this may be a case of Papyrus simulating too much of the real world again!? -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:10:36 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >From what I've read and remember seeing, this is the way it was. There >wheren't a whole lot of markers for the braking and turning references. >Each driver had to "create" his own. I think this may be a case of >Papyrus simulating too much of the real world again!? There would have been enough - even if they had to rely on clumps of grass or similar ;-) Watkins Glen back in '67 was a rather rough and unfinished place with the grass near the track pretty broken up. The GPL version in comparison is like a maiden aunt's sitting room <g> Cheers, Richard

At first I thought that the lack of "proper" distance markers would cause a problem in judgement. Having run the demo now for a week, no problem at all. It's *exactly* as per real life.....we use other trackside objects as cues. At the 'Glen it didn't take very long to associate braking cues with advertising sign locations or similar. Now, I don't miss the '300', '200' etc marks at all. -- Regards, ---- Bruce. > On Sat, 18 Apr 1998 14:10:36 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" > >From what I've read and remember seeing, this is the way it was. There > >wheren't a whole lot of markers for the braking and turning references. > >Each driver had to "create" his own. I think this may be a case of > >Papyrus simulating too much of the real world again!? > There would have been enough - even if they had to rely on clumps of > grass or similar ;-) > Watkins Glen back in '67 was a rather rough and unfinished place with the > grass near the track pretty broken up. The GPL version in comparison is > like a maiden aunt's sitting room <g> > Cheers, > Richard

Just in case there's any confusion - this is *NOT* what I am asking for! All I want is to be able to identify specific track and nearside track details with the *exact* points I want to use for braking, turning in and making my apexes. This may be a difference in track surface, a prominent clump of grass by the track side or anything similar that isn't going to move during the race! The GPL demo does not provide the same level of detail that is available for this in real life. It is no worse in this respect than any other sim, but the increased realism of GPL's driving model requires equally improved visual references <g> Cheers, Richard

Quoted text (9 lines)

> >Now, I don't miss the '300', '200' etc marks at all. > Just in case there's any confusion - this is *NOT* what I am asking for! > All I want is to be able to identify specific track and nearside track > details with the *exact* points I want to use for braking, turning in and > making my apexes. This may be a difference in track surface, a prominent > clump of grass by the track side or anything similar that isn't going to > move during the race!

I just use the darker tarmaque (sp?) before turns to start braking, and it works okay for me. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

---------- Simple. Get the utility that allows you to unpack and modify the graphics in the sim. Add your own little markers at the appropriate locations. Repack the modified files. -- Regards, Bruce.

Hehe. But that would be cheating <g> (see numerous debates over on ten.games.simulations.nascar!) Cheers, Richard

>Hehe. But that would be cheating <g> >(see numerous debates over on ten.games.simulations.nascar!) Well, you asked for a solution. Regards, Bruce.

Bruce Kennewell wrote I just don't like the fact about this. Since it's now soo easy to modify your track.dat file, I don't see the point of online racing at GPL. Sure I my let my track "***". But some people won't, making an obvious imm*** advantage IMHO. The NROS has strick rules, and safety measure against this form of theoric cheating, but TCP/IP will _maybe_ not have. But with the client/server architecture I can't really don't know about the safety measures of GPL's multiplayer racing. You know, you first start with making your own braking mark. After it's the acceleration marks. And the turning rate marks after. And finally..... You create robot-drivers. Lol I think I summarized Robert Huggins's evolution ;-) Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

The simple solution is to race against people you already know and trust. I realise that 'trust' is probably considered a dirty word these days but I am very happy to know that there are a significant bunch of good drivers out there who I do trust and would be happy to race against knowing that they would never do anything against the spirit of being fair. LOL! Cheers, Richard