Will there be telemetry in GPL?

Of course the real F1 cars of sixties didn't have telemetry, but I hope Papyrus will include it in the final version of GPL. It would be a waste of that excellent physics model, if we couldn't study the car behaviour a little closer! Jari Jokinen

> I hope that Papyrus totally ignore your suggestion, to be perfectly blunt. > The last thing an "historical" sim needs is technology from the > future.....it then ceases to be "historical". > If you wish to study the car behaviour, simply save a replay and then cycle > through the available camera positions. Would it upset you if you never looked at it? ;) - Matt

I hope that Papyrus totally ignore your suggestion, to be perfectly blunt. The last thing an "historical" sim needs is technology from the future.....it then ceases to be "historical". If you wish to study the car behaviour, simply save a replay and then cycle through the available camera positions. > Of course the real F1 cars of sixties didn't have telemetry, but I hope > Papyrus will include it in the final version of GPL. It would be a > waste of that excellent physics model, if we couldn't study the car > behaviour a little closer! > Jari Jokinen -- Bruce. (At home)

> Of course the real F1 cars of sixties didn't have telemetry, but I hope > Papyrus will include it in the final version of GPL. It would be a > waste of that excellent physics model, if we couldn't study the car > behaviour a little closer! I agree that data acc and telemetry were not on 1960's F1 cars. However, it's interesting to note that the Chaparral team from the same period (with engineering help from Chevy R & D under the table) had basic telemetry in their Can-Am cars, and even sent realtime data to Detroit by phone (on occassion). So the technology was available...

This is certainly a matter of opinion, but consider this: If GPL was a REAL simulation/educational tool for learning how to drive and setup real F1 cars of 1967 (and not "just" a very good entertainment title), there would propably be telemetry; All the things needed for it are modeled anyway, so why should they be hidden from the end user? I just think telemetry would be interesting. Replays are no substitute for it and besides they didn't have THAT much cameras filming the races on the sixties ;) Jari Jokinen > I hope that Papyrus totally ignore your suggestion, to be perfectly blunt. > The last thing an "historical" sim needs is technology from the > future.....it then ceases to be "historical". > If you wish to study the car behaviour, simply save a replay and then cycle > through the available camera positions.

Yes.....true indeed. BUT.....GPL is not a depiction of either Can-Am in general or the Chapparal team in particular. However....having said that....perhaps Papyrus could add another string to their bow by producing a Can-Am sim, with lovely McLarens and Chaparrals and Lolas and big, brutish Porsches and, and.........mmmmmmm!

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> > Of course the real F1 cars of sixties didn't have telemetry, but I hope > > Papyrus will include it in the final version of GPL. It would be a > > waste of that excellent physics model, if we couldn't study the car > > behaviour a little closer! > I agree that data acc and telemetry were not on 1960's F1 cars. > However, it's interesting to note that the Chaparral team from the same > period (with engineering help from Chevy R & D under the table) had basic > telemetry in their Can-Am cars, and even sent realtime data to Detroit by > phone (on occassion). So the technology was available...

-- Bruce. (At home)

No, not at all, Matthew. But I think that it would be somewhat unrealistic to include such a feature that was never available in reality at that time. Why stop there? Why not, for instance, include the ability to have wings? This would cater for those who may want to see what one of these things may have handled like with some downforce. Or how about semi-automatic gearboxes, two-pedal braking systems and mandatory pit stops?

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> > I hope that Papyrus totally ignore your suggestion, to be perfectly blunt. > > The last thing an "historical" sim needs is technology from the > > future.....it then ceases to be "historical". > > If you wish to study the car behaviour, simply save a replay and then cycle > > through the available camera positions. > Would it upset you if you never looked at it? ;) > - Matt

-- Bruce. (At home)

To each his own. > This is certainly a matter of opinion, -- Bruce. (At home)

> Of course the real F1 cars of sixties didn't have telemetry, but I hope > Papyrus will include it in the final version of GPL. It would be a > waste of that excellent physics model, if we couldn't study the car > behaviour a little closer! Why? I'd say this would transform it from accurate simulation of the period to ummm, ahhhh....... something else! Why not just have included what was available at the time? Wait for N3 or ICR3.

> Yes.....true indeed. > BUT.....GPL is not a depiction of either Can-Am in general or the Chapparal > team in particular. > However....having said that....perhaps Papyrus could add another string to > their bow by producing a Can-Am sim, with lovely McLarens and Chaparrals and > Lolas and big, brutish Porsches and, and.........mmmmmmm! Bruce, I agree completely CanAm would be great :)! What I'd like to see also: World of Outlaws dirt sprint sim Nascar dirt modifieds Early Trans Am Trev

I'm with you on this Trev, on all three counts!!! Dan

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>Bruce, I agree completely CanAm would be great :)! >What I'd like to see also: >World of Outlaws dirt sprint sim >Nascar dirt modifieds >Early Trans Am >Trev

The Trans Am simulator will be out around Sept 1998. Here is a press release from the Trans Am web page. FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE TRANS-AM'S "GLORY DAYS" TO BE CAPTURED IN NEW DRIVING SIMULATOR FROM GT INTERACTIVE ENGLEWOOD, Colo. (March 2, 1998)The rich heritage and e***ment of Trans-Am racing will soon arrive to corner and personal computer arcades with the newest racing simulator, Trans-Am Racing, set to bring the thrill of the Trans-Am "glory days" to the public this fall. A collaborative effort between GT Interactive, Engineering Animation Inc. and SCCA Pro Racing, Trans-Am Racing captures the 1968-1972 Trans-Am seasons, complete with the legendary drivers and machines. EAI, a leading producer of enterprise-wide product data visualization and collaboration software solutions, brings its unrivaled fusion of 3D imagery and visualization technology to Trans-Am Racing, creating the most realistic automobile physics and crashes ever created on a PC. "The Trans-Am Racing series of the 60s and 70s were truly some of the most influential and classic series in auto racing history," said Richard Burns, Vice President, Domestic Publishing for GT Interactive, a leading global publisher of software for personal computers and video game systems from Sony and Nintendo. "By melding a timeless property like Trans-Am Racing, with the technology and expertise of EAI, we can bring to life all of the e***ment, charisma, and nostalgia of the hot muscle cars that defined a legendary era for auto racing." By securing the exclusive worldwide rights to the sights and sounds that were the backbone of the "glory days" Trans-Am, GT Interactive plans to treat fans to the actual drivers, tracks, cars, and images that helped establish the Trans-Am as the era's premier racing spectacle. Every featured track, most of which have never been seen before in a racing simulation, and some of which no longer exist, will be period-correct to meticulous detail, from elevation changes to trees and track signage. The carsincluding such classics as the 1968 Chevrolet Camaro, 1970 Boss Mustang, 1970 Pontiac Firebird, 1966 Dodge Dart and 1972 AMC Javelinwill encompass the high-horsepower, small-tire characteristics of a period when racing truly separated the "men from the boys." "We're e***d with this new partnership that will bring the history of America's muscle car road racing series to life," said John Clagett, Vice President, SCCA Pro Racing Communications and Marketing Services. "The early years of the Trans-Am featured the greatest cars and racers of the era in fender-banging, drama-filled competition. The Trans-Am Racing simulation game will rekindle interest in the roots of the Trans-Am, and bring new fans to today's NTB Trans-Am Seriesstill the most action-packed, ground-pounding road racing anywhere." Following the game's expected September, 1998 release, Trans-Am Racing demonstrations will be set up at select NTB Trans-Am Series venues. Scott B. Husted [link lost in import: /~sbhusted]

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> I'm with you on this Trev, on all three counts!!! > Dan > >Bruce, I agree completely CanAm would be great :)! > >What I'd like to see also: > >World of Outlaws dirt sprint sim > >Nascar dirt modifieds > >Early Trans Am > >Trev

Jari, I may be mistaken, but he only "telemetry" available in 1967 came from the driver and his foot and backside. Other than driver input, I don't think any sort of electronic information gathering device was used in the '60s. So if GPL is a '60s sim.....that sort of thing should be left out. It would kinda be like mounting Sidewinders on a Sopwith Camel in a WWI flight sim. dave henrie

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> This is certainly a matter of opinion, but consider this: If GPL was a > REAL simulation/educational tool for learning how to drive and setup > real F1 cars of 1967 (and not "just" a very good entertainment title), > there would propably be telemetry; All the things needed for it are > modeled anyway, so why should they be hidden from the end user? > I just think telemetry would be interesting. Replays are no > substitute for it and besides they didn't have THAT much cameras filming > the races on the sixties ;) > Jari Jokinen > > I hope that Papyrus totally ignore your suggestion, to be perfectly blunt. > > The last thing an "historical" sim needs is technology from the > > future.....it then ceases to be "historical". > > If you wish to study the car behaviour, simply save a replay and then cycle > > through the available camera positions.

> No, not at all, Matthew. > But I think that it would be somewhat unrealistic to include such a feature that > was never available in reality at that time. I'd like to have something to enable me to make a better guess at the RPM's I'm getting. (I can't read the guages, at least in software rendering.) I realize the god's of racing didn't have coaches, but didn't someone in the bar at least tell them: "BTW, your fly is open, and you are consistently lifting in turn 2" ;) Section times would be nice. I'm sure a driver could afford a groupie or two if no one on the team would help with a stop watch. Etc. I think one could pick and choose TM that would make some historical sense to have, to complement what info we can't get while driving in the sim, and compensate for the rest of the team or vicious journalists. - Matt

> Jari, I may be mistaken, but he only "telemetry" available in 1967 came from > the driver and his foot and backside. > It would kinda be like mounting Sidewinders on a Sopwith Camel in a WWI flight > sim. Well, they would at least need a heads-up-display of the "wind-on-the-face" force level to match real world driver data gathering capabilities. - Matt

Early Trans-Am I can relate to, Trevor. The others that you mention never had any involvement with. I think that, with the "kernel" that Papyrus now have, they could create some wonderful racing sims. Imagine, for instance, Le Mans. With the ability to model different vehicles, and sounds, how about a historic Le Mans? Several eras could be represented.......the 1950s, with the D-Type Jaguars and Mercedes SLRs. The 1960s, with the GT40s and Ferrari P-4s. The 1980s, with the Porsches. Imagine a sim where you have the ability to drive for 24 hours, in different conditions? Papyrus certainly have the ability now to come up with some super stuff!

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> Bruce, I agree completely CanAm would be great :)! > What I'd like to see also: > World of Outlaws dirt sprint sim > Nascar dirt modifieds > Early Trans Am > Trev

-- Bruce. (At home)

Im not sure which way this point takes the argument - you can decide this for yourselves, but the driver in the car can probably get a lot more on how well the car is handling than driving on a computer screen, so the replays with all the cameras are definitely needed to try and recreate some of the 'feel' a driver had. As for telemetry, well as you say, it would be interesting, but highly unrealistic. Perhaps some bright-spark will figure out a way of extracting the data from the replays once the game is released :)

I realize, that telemetry wasn't available for GP cars in 1967, but I try to defend my point of view anyway: In real life telemetry of course requires all kinds of gadgets attached to the car, and accordingly the kind of fancy replays we can enjoy in driving games/simulations would require a LOTS of helicopters flying around taking footage. However, if GPL did have telemetry, I wouldn't find it necessery to imagine, that the car has those gadgets needed for it. The question is if we are allowed to observe the simulated "world" to the full extent, which is the whole point of some scientific simulations, or if our vision is limited to what can be seen/heard by the driver or the cameramen. Adding telemetry to GPL isn't therefore comparable to mounting Sidewinders to a Sopwith Camel (nothing wrong with that though, but a bit pointless) in a flight sim. The only problem I can see with telemetry, is that it could delay the release of GPL. It could also ruin the multiplayer experience for someone who wants to develop the car setups without "cheating". Luckily GPL isn't about the GP cars of the thirties. Otherwise people would require replays in black and white! Jari Jokinen

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> Jari, I may be mistaken, but he only "telemetry" available in 1967 came from > the driver and his foot and backside. Other than driver input, I don't think > any sort of electronic information gathering device was used in the '60s. So if > GPL is a '60s sim.....that sort of thing should be left out. > It would kinda be like mounting Sidewinders on a Sopwith Camel in a WWI flight > sim. > dave henrie

And that's not a bad idea, either! We have similar touches with such historical flight sims as Red Baron 2 and the sepia-toned background graphics certainly enhance the atmosphere. -- Regards, ---- Bruce.