Two approaches to racing simulations.

There are racing simulations that let you simulate the proper techniques of racing without the requirement of spending a hundred hours perfecting your steering and braking techniques, but still strive for a realistic experience in all other departments. GP2 falls into this category. Then there is the other kind of simulation that requires you to spend a hundred hours just perfecting your steering and braking inputs so you don't meander all over the track as you negotiate a kink in the straight or enter a curving braking zone without spinning off. And, unfortunately you may still not master it. Papyrus sims fall into this category. It thus follows that there are two types of simulation players -- those who don't want to spend a hundred hours just learning how not to spin-out in a curving braking zone or a kink in a straight and those who relish the thought of spending at least a hundred hours perfecting their braking and steering inputs before mastering the other aspects of a simulation. So, there you have it -- two schools of thought on how to approach a racing simulation experience. It would be nice to incorporate the two approaches in Grand Prix Legends. This would satisfy both the *** simmer and the not so *** simmer. As it stands now in demo form, GPL is geared to the extremely *** sim player -- ie, the type of player who's hands and feet have built in calculators to determine the exceedingly precise input requirements of the steering wheel and brake. This will be sad for those who relish the thought of driving this sim but will not be able to meet Papyrus's excessively tough minimum requirements.

> As it stands now in demo form, Er, Charles.....I suggested the other day that, when it comes to judging the final product, you just may be placing to much importance on this little demo. I repeat that suggestion. -- Bruce. (At home)

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> (snip) > As it stands now in demo form, GPL is geared to the extremely *** > sim > player -- ie, the type of player who's hands and feet have built in > calculators to determine the exceedingly precise input requirements of > the > steering wheel and brake. This will be sad for those who relish the > thought > of driving this sim but will not be able to meet Papyrus's excessively > tough > minimum requirements.

Jayzees, didn't know I was a "gifted" person! I am the chosen one!! Yes! Seriously, Charles, I have been wondering if you have written all your posts just to provoce and irritate. Some of them come close to real spam, but suddenly you have some valid points. The thing is, you are *very* subjective and you seldom answer comments. Cheers, Matt (drove Gp2 for ages!, took me as much/more time to learn than GPL!) -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

> There are racing simulations that let you simulate the proper techniques of > racing without the requirement of spending a hundred hours perfecting your > steering and braking techniques, but still strive for a realistic experience > in all other departments. GP2 falls into this category. You may be able to win without much practice at novice level, but at the higher skill levels you must get the car setup right - and that means *lots* of practice. --

> There are racing simulations that let you simulate the proper techni > ques of > racing without the requirement of spending a hundred hours perfectin > g your > steering and braking techniques, but still strive for a realistic ex > perience > in all other departments. GP2 falls into this category. Hmmm, not sure I can agree with that statement? Sure you can configure GP2 with all the driver aids on, and step straight into a *quick race* on rookie level, and probably win straight away at that level without even looking at set-ups. But, try to jump into a race at Ace level, with all the driver aids turned off, and that is another story? To win at this level you must have detailed knowledge of the car set-ups, car handling characteristics & the circuits, and be a very good driver. And to achieve that, requires *lots* and *lots* of practice. As it does, in most other serious sims. *Peter* 8-)

> As it stands now in demo form, GPL is geared to the extremely *** sim > player -- ie, the type of player who's hands and feet have built in > calculators to determine the exceedingly precise input requirements of the > steering wheel and brake. This will be sad for those who relish the thought > of driving this sim but will not be able to meet Papyrus's excessively tough > minimum requirements. They will be able to turn braking and steering helps on and enjoy the sim. And then they'll still be able to spend time trying to learn to drive it whithout helps if they want to. I applaud Papyrus' decision to incorporate a realistic, demanding driving model into GPL. If I could learn to be fast in an hour or two, where would the replay value be? As it is, I expect to still be learning things and picking up tenths of seconds here and there well into next year. Trips

I installed GPL, set it to the highest difficulty levels and set-out for my first lap. After spending a hundred hours getting CART:PR set-up so that the steering would not be twitchy, I revelled in the fact that GPL was perfect from the beginning. I drove my first lap at moderately high speeds and did not crash or leave the track once. That is what a driving model is supposed to be like. Realistic and the car responds as you would expect it to. Subsequently, in an attempt to drive faster, I have crashed and spun-out dozens of times. That is because of my incompetence and I think, partly, due to the "unfinished" graphics which do not exhibit a sense of speed as well as I hope the final does. There is nothing wrong with the steering or braking or accelerating in GPL. F1RS steers fine too after you apply the appropriate patches to fix the controller recognition problems. ICR2 and N2 both steer perfectly out of the box. I am not a master of any of these sims., but in none of them do I believe that my poor showing is a result of flawed gameplay. Only CART:PR exhibited that problem and I have fixed it so that it too is fine. GPL, quite simply, is a far cry above earlier Papyrus sims. and blows away most of the competition (for a driving/control model) even though it is in a pre-alpha state. I am very impressed with it and not very impressed with your whining. Marc. >There are racing simulations that let you simulate the proper techniques of >racing without the requirement of spending a hundred hours perfecting your >steering and braking techniques, but still strive for a realistic experience

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>in all other departments. GP2 falls into this category. >Then there is the other kind of simulation that requires you to spend a >hundred hours just perfecting your steering and braking inputs so you don't >meander all over the track as you negotiate a kink in the straight or enter >a curving braking zone without spinning off. And, unfortunately you may >still not master it. Papyrus sims fall into this category. >It thus follows that there are two types of simulation players -- those who >don't want to spend a hundred hours just learning how not to spin-out in a >curving braking zone or a kink in a straight and those who relish the >thought of spending at least a hundred hours perfecting their braking and >steering inputs before mastering the other aspects of a simulation. >So, there you have it -- two schools of thought on how to approach a racing >simulation experience. It would be nice to incorporate the two

approaches >in Grand Prix Legends. This would satisfy both the *** simmer and the >not so *** simmer. >As it stands now in demo form, GPL is geared to the extremely *** sim >player -- ie, the type of player who's hands and feet have built in >calculators to determine the exceedingly precise input requirements of the >steering wheel and brake. This will be sad for those who relish the thought >of driving this sim but will not be able to meet Papyrus's excessively tough >minimum requirements.

>I installed GPL, set it to the highest difficulty levels and set-out for my >first lap. After spending a hundred hours getting CART:PR set-up so that >the steering would not be twitchy, I revelled in the fact that GPL was >perfect from the beginning. There's one thing Papyrus deserves HUGE kudos for, that I haven't seen mentioned yet - the implementation of non-DirectX steering wheel support that talks directly to the hardware. FINALLY after all these years with GPL it's possible for me to get smooth steering wheel input under Win95! No doubt Papyrus noticed the poor quality of DirectInput compared to their own DOS calibration routines, so they implemented native hardware support. Well done, and I hope other racing sim companies follow suit! (Sadly, having dozens of different companies all implementing their own wheel support seems MUCH more likely than the hope of Microsoft ever fixing DirectInput). Joe

Anyone who frequents this NG is a *** sim player and IMHO GPL doesn't require any extra effort to master than any other half decent sim out there. A few days ago I was spinning around the track turn "fast" laps of 1:18 and now I'm down to 1:11.20 and I only practice (it's not playing it practicing) for an hour or so a day. Even if the GP hard is too tough for you to tame you can still get much enjoyment from the GP2 and GP3 cars, and with a little practice and patience you too can lap in under 1:12 before you know it. Alan

> I applaud Papyrus' decision to incorporate a realistic, demanding > driving model into GPL. If I could learn to be fast in an hour or two, > where would the replay value be? As it is, I expect to still be learning > things and picking up tenths of seconds here and there well into next > year. Yep. This is the type of sim you could get very good at but if you stopped using it for a fortnight you would have already developed rust.

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> I installed GPL, set it to the highest difficulty levels and set-out for my > first lap. After spending a hundred hours getting CART:PR set-up so that > the steering would not be twitchy, I revelled in the fact that GPL was > perfect from the beginning. I drove my first lap at moderately high speeds > and did not crash or leave the track once. That is what a driving model is > supposed to be like. Realistic and the car responds as you would expect it > to. Subsequently, in an attempt to drive faster, I have crashed and > spun-out dozens of times. That is because of my incompetence and I think, > partly, due to the "unfinished" graphics which do not exhibit a sense of > speed as well as I hope the final does.

I personally have no problems with the sense of speed but perhaps it could be better. One thing is for sure though. After CPR's overly magnified view, IMO, GPL must feel like a snail sim :) I in fact absolutely love the way you need to start braking 1/2 a mile/hour before the corner.

Maybe if they called it GP3 and put someone else's name on it you would like it... Or better yet why don't YOU write a sim (you seem to know everything there is to know about them) so we can bash it like you seem to like to do with this demo. Bottom line... if you don't like it.. don't buy it. Lurch >There are racing simulations that let you simulate the proper techniques of >racing without the requirement of spending a hundred hours perfecting your >steering and braking techniques, but still strive for a realistic experience

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>in all other departments. GP2 falls into this category. >Then there is the other kind of simulation that requires you to spend a >hundred hours just perfecting your steering and braking inputs so you don't >meander all over the track as you negotiate a kink in the straight or enter >a curving braking zone without spinning off. And, unfortunately you may >still not master it. Papyrus sims fall into this category.