opposite-lock was applied in 'bursts' ,not in a continuous 'hold' (in 67')

Charles Mak wrote : LOL. Mr. Troll, If Geoff does a 1970 F1 simulator, it won't feel, act, do, like nothing we tried. 'Cause 1970 F1 cars are VERY different than 1967 cars <g>. Maybe you should spend more time lurking, that wouldn't hurt. Do you know there is a FAQ also ?. Btw, there is still around 90% of the SimRacing community who thinks that Papyrus modeled adequately GPLegends. Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

>I'm with you 100% but looks like the "arcaders" in this newsgroup have the >upperhand. No need to worry though, they are just lost souls and not worth >saving. Maybe Geoff Crammond will come out with his version simulating the >1970 season. He will get it right if he takes a stab at it. Ha Ha You cant do it can you Chuck. You Havant got the skill required to run the fast laps. Have you ever seen a sprint car race. 1000 hp cars on half mile dirt tracks and they use every horse. For the best drivers its just like an arcade game flat out all the way but for the unskilled it is impossible. Go back to your GP2 If you want to pretend your a real race car driver. Go fast brake here then turn wheel there and all the rest is done for you. Or race the sim the race drivers race GPL. Todd.

>Just because the drivers didn't hold opposite lock doesn't >necessarily mean that they couldn't. I'm just guessing here, >and maybe someone that knows more about it can say more >definitively, but wouldn't holding the slide wear down the >tires more? Perhaps quick stabs is the way to drive it, even >in GPL. I guess we'll see that when the full version comes out... Maybe then it'll only be possible to finish a race if you can correctly manage your tires. A. Renault

> <stuff about opposite lock> In GPL i can do some pretty lengthy controlled slides with a lot of opposite lock too, but whenever i find myself doing this, i also notice that my speed isn't increasing as fast as when I have the car under more control requiring only little bursts of opposite lock correction, since the rear wheels are a little too loose giving too much of a slip angle and scrubbing speed. So I suspect the reason why you didn't see those drivers in the video using a lot of lengthy opposite lock is because that's not the quickest way to drive. And it's also pretty *** on tyre temperature and wear, which is not yet modelled in this GPL demo. In a real race I would imagine a real driver will drive in a manner that prolongs the tyres life and performance. I'm really looking forward to GPL hopefully having a very realistic damage model where we can trash tyres from overdriving them, ruin the engine from overrevving, grind the gearbox into dust from not matches revs, etc, etc:) it will be much more challenging, rewarding and realistic if your race results depend on how well you treat the car. Grant.

>I'm with you 100% but looks like the "arcaders" in this newsgroup have the >upperhand. No need to worry though, they are just lost souls and not worth >saving. Maybe Geoff Crammond will come out with his version simulating the >1970 season. He will get it right if he takes a stab at it. >>because you could see so much more of the driver in those days. Yeah and if we're lucky Crammond might release it by 2070, and by then it may or may not have weather effects. Cheers. --John -- *kludger AT zipcon DOT com* | ICQ #7522564 contact me at: Seattle, Washington USA. | http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7522564

Quoted text (11 lines)

> Now first let me say that I love GPL :0) ..OK, the opposite lock > that I see in the old days on speedvision, etc., is done in quick > little corrective bursts. Sometimes there are several corrections > made in the space of a couple of seconds, little twitches on the > wheel it looks like. This is very obvious because you could see so > much more of the driver in those days. > In GPL, the opposite lock you can(I didn't say MUST) use is very > different. In GPL I can hold a correction for rather a long time, > in fact it struck me right away how long you could hold opposite > lock!

Sure, get the car enough out of shape, and you can hold it all day if you like and have the skill. Logical flaw in your argument: A. It's possible to hold opposite lock in GPL. B. I watched a lot of race coverage and didn't see anyone doing it in the 67 F1 season. C. Therefore, it wasn't possible to do A in '67 F1. D. Therefore, GPL is undeniably broken. C doesn't follow from B, by the following: It was an option, but it was slow, so the top drivers (and almost by definition, the drivers you saw footage of were top drivers :-) ) didn't do it. They *could* have, but chose not to. One thing to keep in mind is that you are watching what control inputs generated the fastest laps when you watch professionals do it. The fact that they DID apply short bursts of lock, keeping the car drifting with low steer angles only means that's what they found was fastest, not that they COULDN'T do long slides with constant opposite lock. Go down to your local Skip Barber (or general equivalent) school and watch the formula cars drive around. I can go to Lime Rock, hang the back end out, and do long lurid SLOW slides around Big Bend and turn 3. Or, I can watch my instructor beat me by several seconds in split times by keeping the car neater and more neutral through there. Or, I can go to the car control clinic skid pad, put the back end 30 degrees out, and do LAP after LAP of powerslides with opposite lock (THIS IS WORTH THE PRICE OF THE COURSE BTW! :-) ). Doesn't make it the fast way around, but it's possible. So, one CAN hang it out and slide around, but if one filmed top drivers in that same section (to show later on SpeedVision), you would see drivers applying rapid small corrections and never getting to 20 degrees of yaw and full opposite lock. ---Jim

Quoted text (10 lines)

> > So, one CAN hang it out and slide around, but if one filmed top > > drivers in that same section (to show later on SpeedVision), you would > > see drivers applying rapid small corrections and never getting to 20 > > degrees of yaw and full opposite lock. > Hello Jim. OK then, I wonder if the guys who are doing the fast laps > in the demo are able to drive without breaking the tail loose and then holding > on to opposite lock. I'm fine with knowing it was 'all just me' if these > people can drive fast laps without*** the back out. In fact it would be > a relief!

I've _only_ gone 1:07.76, but I can tell you that sliding all the way around a turn in GPL is not the fast way around the track. Most of the sideways driving that I do is caused from entering the corner too fast. I try to get the car straightened up as soon as possible though. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

On Wed, 15 Apr 1998 14:30:25 -0700, Pat Dotson >I've _only_ gone 1:07.76, but I can tell you that sliding all the way >around a turn in GPL is not the fast way around the track. Most of >the sideways driving that I do is caused from entering the corner >too fast. I try to get the car straightened up as soon as possible >though. Yeah that's fast but you guys still have to prove that it's even faster when the car's not sliding! I think whoever complained about this in the first place isn't completely wrong... But then it's only a pre-alpha, so this may have improved since then! A. Renault

> Hello Jim. OK then, I wonder if the guys who are doing the fast laps >in the demo are able to drive without breaking the tail loose and then holding >on to opposite lock. I'm fine with knowing it was 'all just me' if these >people can drive fast laps without*** the back out. In fact it would be >a relief! If you've seen my other response to (I think) your good self, you'll see that I consider the hotlaps posted on the Apex site to be seriously (even dangerously) overdriving the car. That's OK for hotlapping but ***for anything else. FWIW my best lap is a 1:07.39 and (to me at least <g>) does not use the powerslide technique and certainly uses no opposite lock (just a touch of correction entering turns 4 and 6 and a bigger correction in the middle of T4 but never any OL). I can lap reasonably consistently in the high 1:07s / low 1:08s and am not trying for especially quick laps, just trying to keep things neat and tidy - and after a while the lap times start dropping and continue dropping. I'm pretty damn sure there's enough left by being tidy to beat the current 1:06.9x posted at the Apex. btw - if you want to see the replay of that lap, just let me know and I'll email it to you. Cheers, Richard

> Hello Jim. OK then, I wonder if the guys who are doing the fast laps > in the demo are able to drive without breaking the tail loose and then holding > on to opposite lock. I'm fine with knowing it was 'all just me' if these > people can drive fast laps without*** the back out. In fact it would be > a relief! Gee, go here and get 1.06s and 1.07s on replay. [link lost in import]