GPL Steering -- Needs Reduce with speed Option

Fix the steering problem Papyrus. Add a reduce with speed option for us serious simulation types. You never did it with ICR2 or Nascar2. You can start with GPL. A cars steering input should not be that sensitive on a straight compared to a slow turn given the laws of physics that govern it. Take a leaf out of GP2's book and remedy this glaring problem. Add a reduce with speed option. This will make GPL infinitely more driveable and will make it a better simulation. This is a no-brainer (but it took Antoine Renault's repost to make me realise it. And anyway, you guys who thought I was nuts about the steering issues, now you see that I was right all along. Thank you Mr. Antoine Renault.

>And anyway, you guys who thought I was nuts about the steering issues, now you see that I was right all along.>> With your stunning credentials, how could anyone have doubted it for a moment? Bart brown

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:20:37 -0400, "Charles Mak" >Thank you Mr. Antoine Renault. I didn't know someone would actually pay attention to what I write in this NG, that's a first if I recall correctly... I was even beginning to think my messages weren't relayed to other news servers, and that only I could read them... I kept posting once a while, with the same hope as someone throwing a message in a bottle to the sea.. eheh... I've always found it difficult to drive in a straght line in Papy's sims. I really think this "reduce with speed" option would make a hell of a difference, at least until force feedback becomes an active part of every racing title. What I'd like this option to do as speed increases is to increase the non-linearity of the steering at the same time as it decreases wheel lock. That way you'd still be able to make some sharp turns (like when you're attempting a pass after slipstreaming to the last moment) but they'd require a stronger input to your controller. I hope someone from Papy read the message you're referring to or this thread... Maybe they'd even like to add their own comments on that issue, but I won't hold my breath though... But I could be wrong (although I don't think so - obviously). Maybe there are other solutions to this problem, so if anyone has an idea about this I'd like to read it. Oh and for those of you who didn't read my previous posting and this this is an attempt to bash GPL, you're wrong. I still think this looks like it's gonna be the best sim to come out and will remain at the top for a long time. I just think it's still time to make some wishes to the guys at Papy if we want this sim to be as good as we expect it to be. A. Renault

Hi Charles, At what position is your (Non)-Linear slider? Cheers! Remco

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>Fix the steering problem Papyrus. Add a reduce with speed option for us >serious simulation types. You never did it with ICR2 or Nascar2. You can >start with GPL. >A cars steering input should not be that sensitive on a straight compared to >a slow turn given the laws of physics that govern it. >Take a leaf out of GP2's book and remedy this glaring problem. >Add a reduce with speed option. This will make GPL infinitely more >driveable and will make it a better simulation. >This is a no-brainer (but it took Antoine Renault's repost to make me >realise it. >And anyway, you guys who thought I was nuts about the steering issues, now >you see that I was right all along. >Thank you Mr. Antoine Renault.

> A cars steering input should not be that sensitive on a straight compared to > a slow turn given the laws of physics that govern it. Huh?Since when did the cars have a speed-sensitive power steering system installed? I don't recall any Grand Prix car then, or now, that has such a system available. Perhaps you can enlighten us here. -- Bruce. (At home)

There's not need for insults Byron. I know what you mean and it doesn't really reflect what I was trying to say. Ok, my english is not perfect so maybe I miss the little subtleties of this language, but I thought I was clear enough to be understood... (BTW would you like me to include a line in my sig to say I'm french speaking?) I'm not saying that this would have to be a part of the sim as a real setting on the car. Put it in the "driving aids" category if you wish. Because what's important is that people have fun playing this sim, and if this slight "enhancement" can help sell this sim to the regular guy (as opposed to a sim enthusiast like most of you). As for reducing wheel lock I was talking in terms that everybody here knows to explain myself. Ok, I'll use other words. I love wheel-to-wheel racing, that's why I'm always adjusting the opponent's strenght so the AI matches my speed. What I want is to be able to stay between two cars while racing them and not touching them each time I try to correct my trajectory, while still being able to steer abruptly to avoid a slow car or a crash. Maybe this becomes easy for people who play those sims 24 hours a day (even in their dreams I mean!), but for the occasionnal driver like me this can become quite frustrating. I hope you're not thinking I'm some kind of nuts who only tries to bash at GPL, because I'm not. I'm just a regular guy who likes racing sims and I know I'm not alone in thinking that those sims need to be made for the casual user as well as for the more advanced simracer. I hope we can talk in a more civilized manner now. I know you're associating me with that Mak guy and you're totally not in love with him, but I'm not responsible if he uses my messages to make his point. So don't include me in your wars please. A. Renault Excuse me for my poor english (I'm french speaking) eheh!... Sorry about the copyright infringement mr Menard... C't'une farce!

Byron, you can be a little insulting you know. Antoine is just making a point which he has a right to. He hasn't insulted you in anyway.

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>I hope we can talk in a more civilized manner now. I know you're >associating me with that Mak guy and you're totally not in love with >him, but I'm not responsible if he uses my messages to make his point. >So don't include me in your wars please. >A. Renault >Excuse me for my poor english (I'm french speaking) >eheh!... >Sorry about the copyright infringement mr Menard... >C't'une farce!

> Fix the steering problem Papyrus. Add a reduce with speed option for us > serious simulation types. You never did it with ICR2 or Nascar2. You can > start with GPL. Suprise suprise! More stupidity! The reduce with speed is implicit in the program and part of the inertial physics model. If you cant drive GPL with linearity set to full then you just can't drive which seems to be the case since you drive GP2 with opposite lock help. You are obviously so stupid and senseless that you are beyond embarrassment. How anyone could claim to know what a sim is yet also admit that they use opposite lock help in GP2 because (wait for it) "it's more realistic that way" could only be understood by doctors specialising in the treatment of spastics!

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> I've always found it difficult to drive in a straght line in Papy's > sims. I really think this "reduce with speed" option would make a > hell of a difference, at least until force feedback becomes an active > part of every racing title. What I'd like this option to do as speed > increases is to increase the non-linearity of the steering at the same > time as it decreases wheel lock. That way you'd still be able to make > some sharp turns (like when you're attempting a pass after > slipstreaming to the last moment) but they'd require a stronger input > to your controller. I hope someone from Papy read the message you're > referring to or this thread... Maybe they'd even like to add their > own comments on that issue, but I won't hold my breath though...

Sounds like what you want is a train sim. Change wheel lock? LOL. You are kidding right? I must say this is all getting funnier and funnier as time goes on ie people painting Papy's strengths as their weeknesses. If there is a company that has got wheel/pedal inputs perfect then it is definantly Papyrus. Any sim with a reduce with speed slider is programmed by people who don't know what their doing. This should be part of the physics model. You cannot adjust the inertia of a car in real life and this is what you effectively are doing by having a reduce with speed slider for the steering. Papyrus are the only company I know of that seem to understand that our wheel deflection is a function of the amount of torque applied to a real wheel. The steering in GPL is flawless as in all other Papy sims.

Antoine, I agree with you on this point. It must be very difficult for a sim designer to produce a product which will appeal to a broad range of abilities. F1RS is very good in this respect, in that it has a wide range of options, making it possible for a rank novice or an accomplished sim racer to find a comfortable level of play. I have no doubt that Papyrus will be thinking along the same lines. Don

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> There's not need for insults Byron. I know what you mean and it > doesn't really reflect what I was trying to say. Ok, my english is > not perfect so maybe I miss the little subtleties of this language, > but I thought I was clear enough to be understood... (BTW would you > like me to include a line in my sig to say I'm french speaking?) >snip

The point here is that much of what you say takes GPL toward unrealistic things. Many here, myself included, are in search of increased realism in sims. Believe me, the steering in GPL is flawless. Set that slider all the way to the right and away you go. Most of you just need to get accustomed to the body roll and weight transfer and allow for it in your steering inputs. With time it all feels very natural I assure you.

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> >I hope you're not thinking I'm some kind of nuts who only tries to<BR> > >bash at GPL, because I'm not. I'm just a regular guy who likes racing<BR> > >sims and I know I'm not alone in thinking that those sims need to be<BR> > >made for the casual user as well as for the more advanced simracer.<BR> > ><BR> > Antoine, > I agree with you on this point. It must be very difficult for a sim designer to > produce a product which will appeal to a broad range of abilities. F1RS is very > good in this respect, in that it has a wide range of options, making it > possible for a rank novice or an accomplished sim racer to find a comfortable > level of play. I have no doubt that Papyrus will be thinking along the same > lines.

Don't bet. The guys at Papy are realism nuts and are even considering the ommision of racesaves. I just hope that any changes they do make do not detract from the realism of the overall sim. The market is full of arcade games. Btw, for those who think GPL is bad in the steering, what you need is a good dose of CPR. After that you will marvel at the GPL way of doing things.

> Byron, you can be a little insulting you know. Antoine is just making a > point which he has a right to. He hasn't insulted you in anyway. Not me directly, but he has, perhaps accidently, attempted to pollute the purity of a sim. And that is outrageous to a purist like myself.

I've just been there and I know what you mean... But there's something I don't understand... You want me to move the slider all the way to the right, making it fully non-linear? I don't understand... I thought linear steering was the most realistic setting? Anyway I'll try it and see what it does, but the least I can say is I'm a bit worried about this... And don't get me wrong, I too want to drive the most realist sim on earth, but adding a few driving aids won't make the model less realistic... You turn all helps off and there you go, fully realistic and a handful to drive, just as you like them! ;o) A. Renault

Now come on... This sim is absolutely fantastic when compared to some others on the market, but it doesn't make it the perfect piece of software... I'd like to think we have an input (as small as it may be) into the making of this game (yes, it is a game after all), and if I have a chance of getting one thing in it that will make it more enjoyable to me be sure I will discuss it! Nonetheless I'd be happy even if it came out without that option, I'd just have to call it a tractor sim instead of an old F1 sim, because most of the time I'm mowing the lawn around the track... I know it's all because I need more practice, but I just don't have enough time on my hands, so any help is appreciated! I hope you can still be open-minded about this as any sim enthousiast usually is... Right? Eheh... A. Renault

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> > Don't bet. The guys at Papy are realism nuts and are even considering > >the ommision of racesaves. I just hope that any changes they do make do > >not detract from the realism of the overall sim. The market is full of > >arcade games. Btw, for those who think GPL is bad in the steering, what > >you need is a good dose of CPR. After that you will marvel at the GPL > >way of doing things. > I've just been there and I know what you mean... > But there's something I don't understand... You want me to move the > slider all the way to the right, making it fully non-linear? I don't > understand... I thought linear steering was the most realistic > setting?

Yeah, sorry if I mislead there. I did a post elsewhere on this yesterday and had linear confused with non - linear in just about every place I used it. LOL. AFAIK the non linear setting is the most realistic without FF.

Hey, I gave it a try and guess what... I liked it! I'm still struggling a bit but that maybe because I'm still not used to the new behavior of the car... I'll have to try it some more and I'll be back to comment on this! A. Renault

Byron, I can understand the need to be a simulation purist. I wish I could be one, but for some reason I can't cope with the control inputs of GPL. Maybe I am uncoordinated. I am sure there are others who can't cope either and so would like a little assisstance or maybe a lot of assisstance. > Not me directly, but he has, perhaps accidently, attempted to pollute >the purity of a sim. And that is outrageous to a purist like myself.

> > A cars steering input should not be that sensitive on a straight compared to > > a slow turn given the laws of physics that govern it. > Huh?Since when did the cars have a speed-sensitive power steering > system installed? I don't recall any Grand Prix car then, or now, > that has such a system available. "Reduce with speed" is even MORE than just that. It's a speed-sensitive steering geometry adjustment... ---Jim

> Byron, I can understand the need to be a simulation purist. I wish I could > be one, but for some reason I can't cope with the control inputs of GPL. > Maybe I am uncoordinated. I am sure there are others who can't cope either > and so would like a little assisstance or maybe a lot of assisstance. I'm fighting with GPL, and I'm loving it... maybe I'm into S&M? ;^) (My poor neighbour has to listen to my subwoofer AND my swearing) OTOH, I'm quite sure, Papyrus will add some options for the casual player, it would make sense business wise... l8er ronny -- Toys'R'Us '99: "So, would you like a hand gun with that action figure, kiddo?" |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

> Byron, I can understand the need to be a simulation purist. I wish I could > be one, but for some reason I can't cope with the control inputs of GPL. > Maybe I am uncoordinated. I am sure there are others who can't cope either > and so would like a little assisstance or maybe a lot of assisstance. Well, set that Linearity slider all the way to the right for starters. You can also use the 2 aids (sorry, can't remember them). And also, you have the G3's to use and also the Brabham is the easiest to drive. I do admit however that Papy have made this a very tough demo as far as braking into corners goes and think this was perhaps a mistake on their part. Then again, it could just be that the cars were like that back then too. Most of us will never know.

> > Huh?Since when did the cars have a speed-sensitive power steering > > system installed? I don't recall any Grand Prix car then, or now, > > that has such a system available. > "Reduce with speed" is even MORE than just that. It's a > speed-sensitive steering geometry adjustment... What does ths "reduce with speed" option actually adjust - steering lock, or steering linearity? I would think it should adjust linearity. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

> > "Reduce with speed" is even MORE than just that. It's a > > speed-sensitive steering geometry adjustment... > What does ths "reduce with speed" option actually adjust - steering > lock, or steering linearity? I would think it should adjust linearity. I don't know what the MPRS games use, but I would assume it adjusts the lock. (If you're going to do it, you could make arguments for either, but I think the stronger argument can be made that you must reduce the lock when doing "reduce with speed".) If you view the steering wheel as a force (rather than position) transducer, then reduce with speed makes perfect sense and should be implemented. If you view it, as I do, as a position device (like a real steering wheel connected to a real steering box, connected to real tie rods, etc) then reduce with speed has no analog in the real world. FF is the "proper" fix for this, allowing the force and position to be correct in a simulated wheel, but good FF is just too damn expensive for all but the very hard-core (and it's hard to make money selling to 50 people a year.) ---Jim