I'm not suggesting GPL is designed as an arcade game.

Take a deep breath and repeat after me 3 times, "Pre-Alpha Demo, Pre-Alpha Demo, Pre-Alpha Demo." When the ability to modify the setups is included in the release version I am sure you will see very smooth laps in that range. You might even see a lap close to that by someone with this demo. I will definitely try so you can munch on that dog log sandwich. ;) Kyle

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> The problem with GPL is that to drive fast and get a lap time near to that > of the real lap times of the 1967 race at Watkins Glen, you have to drive it > in arcade style. The qualifying lap time was somewhere in the range of > 1:05. Back then, they didn't drive "arcade style" to achieve those times. ><small snip> > If anyone on this NG can show me a replay lap where he achieved 1:05 driving > in a style not alien to the actual racers of that day, I will go and eat dog > manure.

How many times have you heard that a game is an Alpha? Shitloads of times!! In the game industry that means basicly done. All thats left is to count the money.

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>Take a deep breath and repeat after me 3 times, "Pre-Alpha Demo, >Pre-Alpha Demo, Pre-Alpha Demo." When the ability to modify the setups >is included in the release version I am sure you will see very smooth >laps in that range. You might even see a lap close to that by someone >with this demo. I will definitely try so you can munch on that dog log >sandwich. ;) >Kyle >> The problem with GPL is that to drive fast and get a lap time near to

that >> of the real lap times of the 1967 race at Watkins Glen, you have to drive it >> in arcade style. The qualifying lap time was somewhere in the range of >> 1:05. Back then, they didn't drive "arcade style" to achieve those times. >><small snip> >> If anyone on this NG can show me a replay lap where he achieved 1:05 driving >> in a style not alien to the actual racers of that day, I will go and eat dog >> manure.

> ...I will go and eat dog manure. You want fries with that? ;) -- (please remove '_*_' when replying) Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

> Some people on this NG think that I percieve GPL to be an arcade racer. > This is entirely wrong. I know full well that the Papyrus team strives to > make a simulation experience. I know that GPL is supposed to be a simulator > of 60's F1 racing. Hello? do you have the FULL game? or just the DEMO , that is not adjustable, like everyone else does?? Im sure if we jig with the tyre pressures etc..and camber ,the cars will be more "realistic" just curious. DuDe

> Some people on this NG think that I percieve GPL to be an arcade racer. > This is entirely wrong. I know full well that the Papyrus team strives to > make a simulation experience. I know that GPL is supposed to be a simulator > of 60's F1 racing. Damn, there must be two guys on this NG named Charles Mak... 8^P snip Check out Chris Boll's lap... and eat slowly! ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

>Take a deep breath and repeat after me 3 times, "Pre-Alpha Demo, >Pre-Alpha Demo, Pre-Alpha Demo." When the ability to modify the setups It's funny really people would use this as an excuse now, since at the same time so many people have crowned GPL as THE racing simulator of all time, just by playing this same pre-alpha, pre-alpha, pre-alpha demo without any computer drivers. Hmmm as I remember these same people in fact said this "pre-alpha demo" had pretty much complete and 100% realistic driving model. So why do we need this "But it doesn't have setups and it is only pre-alpha" excuse now, if it was so perfect? I personally am enjoying GPL demo a lot, but I still also love F1RS, and when I see some people claiming this PRE-ALPHA demo has now made all the other great simulators obsolete, it just makes me feel it must be some kind of Papyrus worship cult. It is not THAT much better than the rest of the pack. And anyway, saying that a racing sim depicting 1960 races suddenly makes all other racing sims representing 1990 races like F1, Cart and Nascar obsolete is like saying a good WW1 sim would make all good jet plane sims obsolete. Apples and oranges.

okay, how do people run fast laps back in the 60's when they don't turn their wheel and go fast at the same time?

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:30:39 -0400, "Charles Mak" >There is something inherently wrong when a games developer attempts to get a >close to the real racing experience as possible but the only people getting >the fast times approaching the real 1967 times are those that drive arcade >style. Please can you define "arcade style"? I'm right on those time and wasn't aware that I was driving arcade style. Indeed my style is the same as driving F2 stock cars, a Formula Ford or a 320hp M3 Evo on a track day. Pray tell what I am doing wrong? Cheers! John

>How many times have you heard that a game is an Alpha? >Shitloads of times!! >In the game industry that means basicly done. >All thats left is to count the money. Anything else you would like to add? I'm just wondering if you can be any more wrong than you already are. Cheers! John

>okay, how do people run fast laps back in the 60's when they don't turn >their wheel and go fast at the same time? Uh? I'm confused... A. Renault

>I personally am enjoying GPL demo a lot, but I still also love F1RS, >and when I see some people claiming this PRE-ALPHA demo has now made >all the other great simulators obsolete, it just makes me feel it must >be some kind of Papyrus worship cult. It is not THAT much better than >the rest of the pack. It is - if you want a simulator that is concerned with the *driving* rather then the sense of 'being there'. btw - I've berated Papy about the shortcomings in their previous sims so I don't think that I really come into the 'Papyrus cult worship' bracket. It's just that, SODA excepted, nothing has even come close to portraying the dynamics of a high powered race car. I remember Mike Lescault saying on the Sport Sims forum on Compuserve that GPL was 'real life' and I really took him to town on that statement. It's not real life and will never be so, but it's a step change in racing car sims. Agreed - if you want to simulate racing against Schumi then GPL isn't going to do you much good. But for those of us who know have either driven real racing cars or (as in my case) have studied the theory and observe the driving more than the racing, it is pretty obvious that GPL leaves the others standing in terms of vehicle dynamics. There will always be a market for the sim that places emphasis on 'being there'. Indeed this will almost certainly be the bigger market as not many have the time, patience or - dare I say it - talent to get fun out of a sim that achieves the levels of realism that GPL and it's followers will offer. But now that powerful home PCs are prevalent there is the opportunity to provide as realistic a sim as possible for all the 'wannabe' real life drivers who for whatever reason never made it ;-) Cheers, Richard

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> Some people on this NG think that I percieve GPL to be an arcade racer. > This is entirely wrong. I know full well that the Papyrus team strives to > make a simulation experience. I know that GPL is supposed to be a simulator > of 60's F1 racing. > The problem with GPL is that to drive fast and get a lap time near to that > of the real lap times of the 1967 race at Watkins Glen, you have to drive it > in arcade style. The qualifying lap time was somewhere in the range of > 1:05. Back then, they didn't drive "arcade style" to achieve those times. > There is something inherently wrong when a games developer attempts to get a > close to the real racing experience as possible but the only people getting > the fast times approaching the real 1967 times are those that drive arcade > style. > If anyone on this NG can show me a replay lap where he achieved 1:05 driving > in a style not alien to the actual racers of that day, I will go and eat dog > manure.

I thought you already had eaten dog manure since it's all that's come out of your mouth since you showed up. Go have another nibble. PS - for those that don't know yet, meet mister opposite lock help from GP2! (true - ask him or see posts under "GP2 steering")

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> >Take a deep breath and repeat after me 3 times, "Pre-Alpha Demo, > >Pre-Alpha Demo, Pre-Alpha Demo." When the ability to modify the setups > It's funny really people would use this as an excuse now, since at the > same time so many people have crowned GPL as THE racing simulator of > all time, just by playing this same pre-alpha, pre-alpha, pre-alpha > demo without any computer drivers. Hmmm as I remember these same > people in fact said this "pre-alpha demo" had pretty much complete and > 100% realistic driving model. So why do we need this "But it doesn't > have setups and it is only pre-alpha" excuse now, if it was so > perfect? > I personally am enjoying GPL demo a lot, but I still also love F1RS, > and when I see some people claiming this PRE-ALPHA demo has now made > all the other great simulators obsolete, it just makes me feel it must > be some kind of Papyrus worship cult. It is not THAT much better than > the rest of the pack. And anyway, saying that a racing sim depicting > 1960 races suddenly makes all other racing sims representing 1990 > races like F1, Cart and Nascar obsolete is like saying a good WW1 sim > would make all good jet plane sims obsolete. Apples and oranges.

Did you say F1RS? So you like the off track modelling in F1RS. Or maybe it's the Ubisoft brilliance when it comes to multiplayer ie "Oh, I'll race with all helps and you can have none, ok?" Ubisoft have shown total cluelessness on these 2 vital points. Please, if your gunna make comparisons then keep 'em in the ballpark. To be brutally honest, anyone who can't already see the clear superiority of the GPL physics model has simply got no idea!

>Did you say F1RS? You are fast, did you know that? So you like the fact GPL won't model wet tracks at all, and doesn't have all the tracks in it either? That's exactly what I was talking about in this "cult", you are a good example of it. When you find shortcomings in F1RS, you go nailing it down as totally worthless because of them, like the so called sticky grass (I guess you spent most of the time driving on the grass in F1RS then). But when somebody finds a shortcoming in GPL, like that the tracks are always dry, you say it is really insignificant omission, and say things like "Just pretend it is a very sunny season in GPL". Another similar excuse was how some people claimed that if you wanted to put wet tracks in a driving sim, you really should model where the water is running, where the puddles are forming on the track... PLEASE!!! Sure that it the ultimate goal, but it is not like GPL or any other sim is modelling the little bumps and dents on the track now either, they all presume the surfaces of the tracks are completely smooth. Why then couldn't you just as well say "Just pretend that green stuff beside the tracks of F1RS is green sand."? For some reason you find even the tiniest shortcomings in some racing games completely unforgivable (I'm surprised you haven't yet again mentioned the "poor engine sound of F1RS" or lens flare killing the whole game for you), while on some you think even big omissions like no variable weather is really not a big deal. For me the sticky grass in F1RS is really not that big a deal, because it gets in the way only if I drive completely off the track. As far as I can tell, F1 drivers usually STOP their cars completely if they drive completely off the track, and in many cases stop driving at that point for the rest of the race. Like happened in the last F1 race the other day for example. If they were going to use shortcuts driving over the grass all the time, I think they would be disqualified anyway. How is the multiplayer support in GPL alpha demo anyway? I agree F1RS should have had TCP/IP support, but as you are comparing it to GPL demo... GPL and F1RS are easily in the same ballpark, except maybe for cult members like you. To be brutally honest, you are an arrogant ***. For one thing, I didn't say GPL physics model definitely cannot be superior to F1RS, I said that it isn't that much better that it makes all the other driving sims obsolete. For another thing, how are you comparing GPL to F1RS anyway? Tell me, which has more realistic flight model, Flying Corps Gold or EF2000 2.0? That is comparing apples to oranges, they both are very good at what they are simulating. I know it is a big thing for a Papyrus driving sim for the cars not being glued to the track like in Nascar 2, but it has been done before already, in F1RS for example. Hey, I can end up belly up in GPL demo! Great, I've done that in F1RS too. In Nascar2, never, because of the physics model limitations in it.

% For me the sticky grass in F1RS is really not that big a deal, because % it gets in the way only if I drive completely off the track. As far as % I can tell, F1 drivers usually STOP their cars completely if they % drive completely off the track, and in many cases stop driving at that % point for the rest of the race. Like happened in the last F1 race the % other day for example. If they were going to use shortcuts driving % over the grass all the time, I think they would be disqualified % anyway. I think that the 'sticky' grass is the biggest shortcoming in F1RS. It doesn't ruin the sim for me, but it sure pisses me off. And it's not just when one gets totally off the track. Just try*** "half" of your right or left side tires on the "sticky" grass and you slow down quite alot. This is not modelled correctly. If you are on a straight, one should be able to let off the gas slightly and ease the car back onto the track proper. However, in F1RS, one can "nail" it and the car just gets slower and slower while you have to "fight" to move the car back onto the track proper. Of course this is neither here nor there, but I do think you are highly understating the problem of the sticky grass in F1RS. Which then leads people to question other statements made which seem to be overstated. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> % For me the sticky grass in F1RS is really not that big a deal, because > % it gets in the way only if I drive completely off the track. As far as > % I can tell, F1 drivers usually STOP their cars completely if they > % drive completely off the track, and in many cases stop driving at that > % point for the rest of the race. Like happened in the last F1 race the > % other day for example. If they were going to use shortcuts driving > % over the grass all the time, I think they would be disqualified > % anyway. > I think that the 'sticky' grass is the biggest shortcoming in F1RS. It > doesn't ruin the sim for me, but it sure pisses me off. And it's not > just when one gets totally off the track. Just try*** "half" of > your right or left side tires on the "sticky" grass and you slow down > quite alot. This is not modelled correctly. If you are on a straight, > one should be able to let off the gas slightly and ease the car back > onto the track proper. However, in F1RS, one can "nail" it and the car > just gets slower and slower while you have to "fight" to move the car > back onto the track proper. > Of course this is neither here nor there, but I do think you are highly > understating the problem of the sticky grass in F1RS. Which then leads > people to question other statements made which seem to be overstated.

Ditto. If F1RS modelled offtrack physics correctly (why they did it the way they did I just cannot understand) and supported at least offline racing well then I would be driving in comps for it right now. When I drive with F1RS it is great but as soon as the grass plays the slightest role I feel like all of a sudden I'm in some arcade game :( F1RS is still on mt HD but all I ever use it for is to watch the odd race. And I also must say that the replay facility and camera angles are just not nearly up to Papy standards either. I reckon that upon the release of GPL that it will simply be in a class of it's own and might only be challenged by GP3 or F1RS 2 whenever they appear. Of course ICR3 will at least partially put GPL away. And N3 to a lesser extent but not in my particular case.

<snip> > Another similar excuse was how some people claimed that if you wanted > to put wet tracks in a driving sim, you really should model where the > water is running, where the puddles are forming on the track... > PLEASE!!! Sure that it the ultimate goal, but it is not like GPL or ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ <snip> TOCA models the little bumps and dents on the track.