GPL-only "arcade specialists" get fast times!

I've come to the conclusion after watching several fast lap replays courtesy of the APEX GPL site www.gpl.gamestats.com that GPL is really made for the arcade racer who has got exceedingly fast twitch reflexes and who has mastered the art of drifting the car precariously through every corner -- just like in an arcade game, like SEGA RALLY. These fast lap arcade specialists will do well over one or two laps but if they adopt this technique over a race of 1 1/2 hours they are invariably going to crash and burn very early in the race -- by lap three I'd say. You should be very of these "arcade specialists" who insist this is a true simulation. They are an insidious breed who unfortunately inhabit this NG boasting of their accomplishments and insisiting ad nauseum that GPL is as real as it gets. "Simulation specialists" on the other hand want to drive like real drivers do. They strive to be quick in qualifying and over a course of a race but they also want to survive the qualifying period intact and make it through a race. The application of proper acceleration , braking, cornering, passing, and sliptreaming techniques are virtues that the simulation specialist strives to acheive. The notion of a kamikaze lap is anathema to them. The question raised is this: does GPL allow the simulation specialist to achieve these important principles? No. So far, GPL has only given the arcade specialist any pleasure. The "arcade specialist" does not seek a realistic vicarious experience -- he only seeks out the instant gratification of a suicide run. Witness the 1:0:7 lap by Chris Bolle; he didn't even slow down for the first right-hander, (which is very close to the start/finish line,) before crossing the line, thus assuring himself of his "jaw-dropping" lap time and of course assuring himself of that inevitable crash at that first turn. Then these self-described simulation racing experts rant that GPL will be the greatest simulation ever to hit store shelves in a mall near you. Better yet , now they won't have to go waste another cent in the local arcade because right in their own home, courtesy of GPL they get to experience the vicarious thrill of pretending they are racing SEGA RALLY.

> I've come to the conclusion after watching several fast lap replays > courtesy > of the APEX GPL site www.gpl.gamestats.com that GPL is really made > for the > arcade racer who has got exceedingly fast twitch reflexes and who has Yakkity-yak-yak-yak.............. I'm sorry, but, ugh. Matt (who can run lotsa laps in the 1.08s/09/010s without crashing, and without lifting for turn1) -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

You are an example of the "arcade specialist" that I'm talking about. >Yakkity-yak-yak-yak.............. >I'm sorry, but, ugh. >Matt (who can run lotsa laps in the 1.08s/09/010s without crashing, and >without lifting for turn1) Matthew Birger Knutsen

Too bad you don't know Matt's background better, else you would know that he's involved with the real_McCoy. Who else to judge whether something is true_to_life or not? =) Cheers! Marc > You are an example of the "arcade specialist" that I'm talking about. -- (please remove '_*_' when replying) Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *

: The "arcade specialist" does not seek a realistic vicarious experience -- he : only seeks out the instant gratification of a suicide run. Witness the : 1:0:7 lap by Chris Bolle; he didn't even slow down for the first : right-hander, (which is very close to the start/finish line,) before : crossing the line, thus assuring himself of his "jaw-dropping" lap time and : of course assuring himself of that inevitable crash at that first turn. Ayrton Senna once did a similar thing when qualifying for the French GP at Magny-Cours (I forget which year, though I'm sure someone else remembers). As the finish line was located at the start of the straightaway, Ayrton took the last chicane faster than usual, took pole position, then spun. Now to my outrage... How dare you dismiss the skill of Chris Boll as arcade-style "instant gratification"! He may not have the cleanest lines, but there is no denying his ability to brake without a puff of tire smoke (Incidentally, when was the last time you saw an arcade racer with locked wheels?). Even if he had slowed down for the next lap it still would have resulted in a sub-1:08 which is still very good. Your attack on Mr. Boll's hard work reeks of sour grapes. Having only achieved a 1:09.14 myself (and consistent mid-1:09s on the whole), sure I was pissed off to find out some 16-year-old made me look third-rate. This only redoubled my efforts and did not cause me to launch into a misguided tirade against something I didn't understand. Is it so hard to applaud a 1:07? I foresee GPL demo laptimes dropping to the 1:06s and even lower once people can set up their own cars. I also foresee many allegations of cheating and "unrealism" from the likes of you. Martin Nigel Mansell RIP!

<Senseless drivel snipped> You are funny... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Its a Game and that is all. Its fun and it does help me with my racing but it feels nothing like driving the real car. And as for Bonzai laps look at Niki Lauda's books. Even "THE COMPUTER " said you have to run hard and take chances in qualifying to get a good starting position esp at some tracks where passing is almost impossible. If you wnat to see what real Bonzai racing is like try SCCA Solo ll you get three runs on a course you have only walked and the time between winners and losers is only in hundreths of seconds. RACER 23 EP

Hey, save yourself a lot of writing and just say "this sim is way to good for me and I'll never be #1 and it's driving me crazy". So much more simple isn't it? Go back to NFS or something pal!

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> I've come to the conclusion after watching several fast lap replays courtesy > of the APEX GPL site www.gpl.gamestats.com that GPL is really made for the > arcade racer who has got exceedingly fast twitch reflexes and who has > mastered the art of drifting the car precariously through every corner -- > just like in an arcade game, like SEGA RALLY. These fast lap arcade > specialists will do well over one or two laps but if they adopt this > technique over a race of 1 1/2 hours they are invariably going to crash and > burn very early in the race -- by lap three I'd say. > You should be very of these "arcade specialists" who insist this is a true > simulation. They are an insidious breed who unfortunately inhabit this NG > boasting of their accomplishments and insisiting ad nauseum that GPL is as > real as it gets. > "Simulation specialists" on the other hand want to drive like real drivers > do. They strive to be quick in qualifying and over a course of a race but > they also want to survive the qualifying period intact and make it through a > race. The application of proper acceleration , braking, cornering, passing, > and sliptreaming techniques are virtues that the simulation specialist > strives to acheive. The notion of a kamikaze lap is anathema to them. The > question raised is this: does GPL allow the simulation specialist to > achieve these important principles? No. So far, GPL has only given the > arcade specialist any pleasure. > The "arcade specialist" does not seek a realistic vicarious experience -- he > only seeks out the instant gratification of a suicide run. Witness the > 1:0:7 lap by Chris Bolle; he didn't even slow down for the first > right-hander, (which is very close to the start/finish line,) before > crossing the line, thus assuring himself of his "jaw-dropping" lap time and > of course assuring himself of that inevitable crash at that first turn. > Then these self-described simulation racing experts rant that GPL will be > the greatest simulation ever to hit store shelves in a mall near you. > Better yet , now they won't have to go waste another cent in the local > arcade because right in their own home, courtesy of GPL they get to > experience the vicarious thrill of pretending they are racing SEGA RALLY.

-- We are the Hosh! You will be assimilated! Lower your defences and surrender! Your technological and biological distinctiveness will be added to our own. Your culture will be adapted to service us. Resistance is futile. Have a nice &*($ing day!

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:14:44 -0400, "Charles Mak" >I've come to the conclusion after watching several fast lap replays courtesy >of the APEX GPL site www.gpl.gamestats.com that GPL is really made for the >arcade racer who has got exceedingly fast twitch reflexes and who has >mastered the art of drifting the car precariously through every corner -- >just like in an arcade game, like SEGA RALLY. How is this in any way different from every sim ever released? It is the simple difference between being abe to hurt yourself and knowing you cannot, and that will never change. In F1GP people use to take the Ostkurve chicane flat in fifth and try time after time after time until they did it on one perfect lap. In ICR2 you get the same thing with the Surfer's backstraight esses. On any circuit in any sim you will get people who sit for hour after hour, lap after lap just trying to get that one perfect lap - they will ALWAYS be faster than you or I. Is it realistic - no Do they enjoy it - yes. Will they win any races - probably not. As you pointed out, you can't drive that way in a race and hope to last, but anyone who can drive a car like that can certainly slow down enough to drive at 95% and keep it on the track. It is - for now. Oh bollocks. GPL, like any other sim, delivers what you ask of it. If you want to drive it realistically you can - if you want to sit for hour after hour looking for a perfect lap you also can. Look around you on the group - the vast majority of people are enjoying the heck out of GPL and they are all sim fans. Can I take it from that that you are the only "simulation specialist", since you say that GPL has only given the arcade specialist pleasure? A touch too egocentric I think. This is not "arcade" this is called thinking about your lap (in fact I think I suggested that). This was something the drivers had to do at Vallelunga in order to get a good lap, since you had to brake before the S/F line in order to make T1. The drivers stayed *** it and sacrificed the next lap in order to gain a couple of tenths. I'm sure other tracks are the same. Er, okay, whatever. Remember GPL is not yet finished, and tyre pressures and temperatures do not change with abuse. Things like that will serve to punish anyone who hangs the tail out, since the rears will get hot, lose traction and wear rapidly. The pressure will also increase serving to decrease the amount of *** on the road and decrease grip further. Like I said, it's a pre-alpha. Cheers! John

Note. "Bonzai" = "Banzai" > And as for Bonzai laps -- Bruce. (At home)

Oh dear... now you've made me think about "bonsai racing". Would that be fastest growing, or could you put them on little carts and tow them behind teams of trained snails? Either way, I'd probably be better at it than GPL :o)

Actually John, it is rather different but not necessarily in the way that out troll loving friend seems to imagine ;-) IMHO hotlapping style driving as in GP2, ICR2, N2, F1RS and most especially CPR simply does not work in GPL. OK maybe one lap in 1000 it might and I guess that some people will try that but not many - and most certainly not guys like Doug Arno. My experience quite clearly indicates that smoothness and consistency is the way to get fast times in GPL, not ultra fast reflexes and throwing the car about. Cheers, Richard

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 15:14:44 -0400, "Charles Mak" >These fast lap arcade >specialists will do well over one or two laps but if they adopt this >technique over a race of 1 1/2 hours they are invariably going to crash and >burn very early in the race -- by lap three I'd say. Charles, In the current "arcade"* state of the demo (no setups, no competitors - AI or human) WHAT DO YOU EXPECT PEOPLE TO BE DOING?!? Hot laps, obviously. What else CAN they do with it, in a competitive sense? Funny, a lot of the names popping up as vocal GPL fans don't seem to be "one lap wonders"... * - Sorry, he used the "A-word" five times, and I sunk to his level, using it once... :) Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

Poor baby don't be jealous if you can't drive like the rest. Wait till you are 16, get a license and go out on the world and see what it is like to drive a real car

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:15:25 +1000, Bruce Kennewell >Note. >"Bonzai" = "Banzai" Could have been "bonsai" I suppose, or am i just "bark"ing up the wrong tree? I'll just leaf it there I think :-) Cheers! John

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> You are an example of the "arcade specialist" that I'm talking about. > >Yakkity-yak-yak-yak.............. > >I'm sorry, but, ugh. > >Matt (who can run lotsa laps in the 1.08s/09/010s without crashing, and > >without lifting for turn1) > Matthew Birger Knutsen > >Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) > >"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" > > -Cale Yarborough

Hi Charlie Calling Matt an "arcade specialist" is really something, considering who he is, but I guess you never bothered to find out did you. I`ve raced in an offline league with one of the other "arcade specialist", namely Pat Dotson, in the TPTCC league last year, if you don`t know it we race N2 with roadcourses from ICR2, not only was he one of the fastest (maybe THE fastest) but also one of the most consistent drivers last year ---> champion. I dowloaded his replay and had a looong good look at it and let me tell you there is nothing arcade about the way he drove his 1:07 lap, smooth and controlled are the words that spring to mind. I think the driving model here is very realistic, I have never driven "real racecars", but I have driven high performance roadcars on the extreme limits, on and off racetracks enough to say that the car behaves in a manner that I would expect it to, my only "gripe" is not having a good sence of speed, making it difficult to judge entry speeds into corners without looking at your tacho I accept that we have different views on the driving model, you are of course entitled to yours, but slagging people off is no way to express your opinion Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy Unclegoy on TEN

You obviously havn't a clue of what you talk about!! If you can't that the heat - quit! It's as simple as that. -- Best, Edwin Solheim ed_ on NROS The Paddock - a legendary site..: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

LOL!!! That's exactly what I was thinking of when I corrected it, Andrew! :-) > fastest growing, or could you put them on little carts and tow them behind > teams of trained snails? Either way, I'd probably be better at it than GPL > :o) -- Bruce. (At home)

And I thought my stuff about snails and carts was bad. You should be ashamed of yourself :-)

All together now....... "GROAN!!" Thank you, John :-)

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> On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 14:15:25 +1000, Bruce Kennewell > >Note. > >"Bonzai" = "Banzai" > Could have been "bonsai" I suppose, or am i just "bark"ing up the > wrong tree? > I'll just leaf it there I think :-) > Cheers! > John

-- Bruce. (At home)

Oh, you bad, bad boy! ;) Cheers! Marc

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> Could have been "bonsai" I suppose, or am i just "bark"ing up the > wrong tree? > I'll just leaf it there I think :-) > Cheers! > John

-- (please remove '_*_' when replying) Sim Racing News - http://www.simnews.com The Sim Project - http://www.simproject.com * No animals were harmed in the making of this e-mail *