Watch 60's race footage -- GPl isn't even close!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You couldn't have said it better.

Exactly right.....it does seem like it will be a good arcade racing game...but a 60's Formula Sim---No Way! Chris

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>OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video >that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and >Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison. I have yet to Chris >Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of >those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the >truth about GPL are plainly in denial. >GPL is nothing but a souped up arcade racer. I dare any of you to find me >footage of any F1 race of that era that exhibits the driving style you >arcade racing dudes are so enamoured with.

Chris T wrote Arcade game ?? lol, this ain't Duke Nukem, my boy ! To me here is a <very> short list of arcade racing titles : - C:PR (very bordeline) - TOCA (very bordeline also) - POD - SEGA Rally - Daytona USA - ManxTT - Ultimate Race Pro - MTMadness (1 & 2) - F1 (by Psygnosis) - Carmageddon - Andretti racing - etc.. (at least 20 games snipped) There is a distinction between arcade and simulator titles. They may have the same goal (to simulate a racing experience) but they are pretty different in all the other ways. From AI, to game engine, to graphics, etc... I know there is no black or white here, but most of us agree that some simulators are ONLY simulators. They can't even be considered as arcade titles. You won't find them in 50 Arcade alleys ;-) IndyCar Racing 2 Nascar Racing 2 F1 Racing Simulator GP-Legends Grand Prix 2 I have a list I made of "un-official" simulator titles... It's on my hard drive. Well, since we may have to redo the FAQ (tweak it a little bit), there is going to be more depth on the arcade vs.simulator point. I can recall the TOCA thread we had about 1month ago on : "How do you determinate what is and what is not a arcade-racing game" . (vice-versa). Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

We are driving on one setup that we cannot modify on an ALPHA build. When we get the final version people may be able to develop stable setups and the driving model which is already awesome may be even better. Thanks John

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:01:08 -0400, "Charles Mak" >those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the >truth about GPL are plainly in denial. Hang tough Charles.... you aren't the only one who feels this way.

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> OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video > that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and > Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison. I have yet to Chris > Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of > those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the > truth about GPL are plainly in denial. > GPL is nothing but a souped up arcade racer. I dare any of you to find me > footage of any F1 race of that era that exhibits the driving style you > arcade racing dudes are so enamoured with.

Did the movie have in car shots? My in car shots look wild but the TV views look quite normal to me. And don't forget us simmers can afford a level of wildness that no real driver would ever dream of using - particularly during a race.

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>On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:01:08 -0400, "Charles Mak" >>those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the >>truth about GPL are plainly in denial. >Hang tough Charles.... you aren't the only one who feels this way.

What is this, a crusade? Since when did you have to "hang tough" to be able to carry on a discussion or hold an opinion? Sounds like you guys want an argument, not an exchange of opinions. Cheers! John

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:01:08 -0400, "Charles Mak" >OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video >that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and >Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison. I have yet to Chris >Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of >those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the >truth about GPL are plainly in denial. Remember, if you are talking about the early '60s ('61-'65), that was the 1.5 liter formula, and the cars were far more docile. 1966 saw the introduction of the 3 liter formula, and the cars were much more of a handful. From the January 1963 Road & Track, talking about the 1962 USGP... "It has also been a constructor's season, not a driver's one. Tires and suspensions are so good, *and power is so low*, that the top drivers drive flat out, rarely if ever making a mistake." That sounds like the footage you describe (or the G2 or G3 cars in GPL). Consider, real drivers of the era had years to perfect their craft in similar machines. We've been driving these wingless buggies on bicycle wheels for less than a week. Right now, banzai runs may be the fastest, but I think that, as we improve, smooth laps will prove the fastest. Time (and the final release) will tell. Before you send me UCE, I know what you're thinking... Did he complain to five or six postmasters last month? Now, you must ask yourself one question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well, do you, punk?

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>>>those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the >>>truth about GPL are plainly in denial. >>Hang tough Charles.... you aren't the only one who feels this way. >What is this, a crusade? Since when did you have to "hang tough" to be >able to carry on a discussion or hold an opinion? >Sounds like you guys want an argument, not an exchange of opinions. >Cheers! >John

That's really funny John. A few threads earlier, I gave my opinion of the game and you described me as the "self proclaimed barometer". Is that the type of "exchange of opinions" your speaking? Which side of your face will you talk out of when you reply to this post? The way I see it, I'm giving my opinion and your giving yours.... where does the crusade come into play?

Tell you what, "Charles Mak" or 'jvasquez' or whatever...... Would you please just take a step back from this "demo", take a deep breath and contemplate the fact that this little tid-bit that Papyrus have thrown us is OLD, may NOT be fully indicative of what the final driving model will be capable of and does NOT allow us to adjust any settings. Now, having contemplated those possibilities, approach the "demo" once again in a different frame of mind and simply enjoy it for what it is.......a ***y SAMPLE of what GP Legends will offer. > OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video > that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and > Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison. --- Bruce. (At home)

Of course, you do remember that those drivers had much better car control (especially Jim Clark) and more practice at such a thing than any of us, and also that this demo is based on a (pre-)beta version of the finished product, that you cannot change any of the setup settings, and that people have had the chance to mess with this demo for only a few days, right? You also realize that in '67, the cars had a high power to weight ratio, no downforce, bad aerodynamics, bad brakes, and that sometimes, when a car doesn't look too unstable from the outside, the driver inside might be fighting to keep the car under control?

Any footage of the *67* season with the 3 litre class will do. 'The History of Motor Racing: The 60s' from Duke amply shows the differences between the 1.5 litre and 3 litre formats. Cheers, Richard

>That's really funny John. A few threads earlier, I gave my opinion of >the game and you described me as the "self proclaimed barometer". Is >that the type of "exchange of opinions" your speaking? No, I was responding to exactly the type of closed statement which precludes discussion, hence my assertion of "self proclaimed barometer". Same as always. When your opinion is not open to be changed yet you continue to shout, then it's a crusade. Look at David's messages for example - he may not be 100% keen on some aspects of GPL, but he is open to discuss them and open to the opinions of others. Endless gainsaying had it's moment of glory with Python, and is otherwise pretty pointless. Perhaps saying what it is about GPL that's arcade like, what you dislike, what driving problems there are may help in making GPL more like what you want? If you convince Papyrus of the validity of your concerns and that GPL does have errors then I can assure you they will be attended to. I can also assure you that it will not be easy, knowing the people who had input to GPL and who know the handling and driving to be accurate. Cheers! John

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>>The way I see it, I'm giving my opinion and your giving yours.... >>where does the crusade come into play? >When your opinion is not open to be changed yet you continue to shout, >then it's a crusade. Look at David's messages for example - he may not >be 100% keen on some aspects of GPL, but he is open to discuss them >and open to the opinions of others. Endless gainsaying had it's moment >of glory with Python, and is otherwise pretty pointless. >Perhaps saying what it is about GPL that's arcade like, what you >dislike, what driving problems there are may help in making GPL more >like what you want? If you convince Papyrus of the validity of your >concerns and that GPL does have errors then I can assure you they will >be attended to. I can also assure you that it will not be easy, >knowing the people who had input to GPL and who know the handling and >driving to be accurate.

Points you obviously missed: - I never called GPL arcade like. - I never said it wasn't the closet thing to realistic (actually I don't care) - I did say what "I" thought GPL's problems were.(It's too difficult to run consistent laps) - I did say how I think it can/is done better(GP2's focus on racing vs. Papyrus's focus on driving) - I never shouted.... and god knows I don't post nearly as much as you. - I even said I like the way Papyrus's model works on Ovals. I think I covered all the bases for a valid argument. What more do I need do? As far as changing my opinion..... when I like the way it drives, I'll change my opinion. It's a game... It's not real.... I don't care how realistic the model is. If it's not fun to drive and race, I won't like it. Why are you allowed to tout how great the game is yet I can't give my opinion? Is it because I'm not one of the "people who had input to GPL and who know the handling and driving to be accurate".

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>> Why are you allowed to tout how great the game is yet I can't give my >> opinion? Is it because I'm not one of the "people who had input to GPL >> and who know the handling and driving to be accurate". >Well Im new but I have read most >of the last 2 months posts today. >I think I can answer your question. >This is J.W the GOD of Yemanard!!!!!

Oh well, I don't know why I reply to this troll but I will still continue... It looks like (your are not the only one exactly), that some people are affected because I have a great respect upon John Wallace. I think this way come back to the [link lost in import] where I defended him when somebody flame him on a wheel controller axis situation. Since then I receive some stupid message, from people like this. Well, Y/e/menard has no god but Yoda, since wisdom and power, have shall he. ;-) <Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try> Oh, and please, since your new here, can you tell us your racing (or SimRacing) experience you had or are having Mr. Not? Since you are probably relatively new to the world of racing simulator, I think you should not really mess up with the big boys. You know absolutely nothing of who I am, what are my relations with any SimRacing companies on the market, and what I do in my normal real life (Well, maybe). You are categorized as a troll (and a USENET newbie), so it's up to you to show the serious of yourself. == And now, back to our normal broadcasting == Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> Exactly right.....it does seem like it will be a good arcade racing > game...but a 60's Formula Sim---No Way! > Chris What total garbage! When the full version is released you will have to worry about tyre wear and being consistant. That should smooth things out for you. You lot seem to be forgetting this is hotlapping at the moment. Mostly, you all just seem totally incompetant when it comes to driving/understanding a 60s F1 car! To call this an arcade game is making a complete mockery of yourself. I was totally humbled for a few hours and then some and I am an experienced simmer!

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> >OK, I watched Chris Boll's replay run and then I watched some 60's F1 video > >that I have in my collection and watched highlights of the 1963 Spa and > >Monaco races on Speedvision. There is no comparison. I have yet to Chris > >Boll's twitchy, drifting, tyre screeching drive exhibited from anyone of > >those drivers of that era. You guys who want to crucify me for telling the > >truth about GPL are plainly in denial. > >GPL is nothing but a souped up arcade racer. I dare any of you to find me > >footage of any F1 race of that era that exhibits the driving style you > >arcade racing dudes are so enamoured with.

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> Tell you what, "Charles Mak" or 'jvasquez' or whatever...... > Would you please just take a step back from this "demo", take a deep breath and > contemplate the fact that this little tid-bit that Papyrus have thrown us is > OLD, may NOT be fully indicative of what the final driving model will be > capable of and does NOT allow us to adjust any settings. > Now, having contemplated those possibilities, approach the "demo" once again in > a different frame of mind and simply enjoy it for what it is.......a ***y > SAMPLE of what GP Legends will offer.

In any case, it's great as it is! Maybe he should just take a step back. A step back to NFS. :)

>As far as changing my opinion..... when I like the way it drives, I'll >change my opinion. It's a game... It's not real.... I don't care how >realistic the model is. If it's not fun to drive and race, I won't >like it. Without describing what exactly you don't like, chances are you're never going to like it because it won't be changed. Usenet is the ultimate in freedom of speech of speed and I have no universal kill filter - if you feel unable to express an opinion while I'm around then I'm sure an analyst can help you with it ;-) Cheers! John