GPL -- Still bloody Undriveable - Not Real!

I've always wondered why the drivers hands are always moving fast back and forth in those modern day in-the-cockpit shots. Certainly a modern F1 or whatever-they-call-them-now cars can't be that hard to drive. ;) - Matt

>I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion. Something you may want to try (if you haven't already) is to slide the steering linearity bar under Options all the way over to the right (non-linear). If you're using a joystick this makes a world of difference. It certainly did for me.

It all depends on the driver. Jacques Villeneuve likes to hack at his steering wheel very frenetically. If you ever watched Alain Prost drive an F1 car -- you would realise that a race car can be driven ***y fast with a minimum of arms and hands flailing around in the***pit.

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>I've always wondered why the drivers hands are always >moving fast back and forth in those modern day >in-the-cockpit shots. Certainly a modern F1 or >whatever-they-call-them-now cars can't be that >hard to drive. ;) >- Matt

I find the game very fun and realistic. My dad used to race in SCCA in the 60's, in fact, I think he drove from 66-68. He idolized Jimmy Clark, and still does. He drove the GPL demo the other day on my computer, and he loved it. He's always said that back then there was more driver skill involved since the machinery just slid around from too much horsepower and too little tires/grip. When I first drove GPL, I thought it was lame, but then after I got used to how to drive one of those cars, I'm down in the 1'10" range and still have lots of room for improvement. Craig

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>I've put previous posts up about the steering and braking problems I'm >having with GPL. Mine is a minority view -- everyone else thinks GPL is >more or less simulates the real thing when it comes to driving a 67 Lotus, >Repco-Brabham or Eagle. >I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion. >When I see Formula 1600 novices try their hands out in one of those >open-wheeled things, I do not see them meandering all over the track, >desperately trying to stay in the racing groove, under acceleration, >braking, at speed. Even as these novices gain speed they still maintain

the >racing line. With GPL, even if you start slow, it is still hard to keep in >the groove. >You can all refute me, but until someone with actual 60's racecar experience >proves otherwise to me, I'll keep on taking the minority view -- GPL does >not realistically portray the driving experience. In fact I'll go on and >say that driving a 60's F1 car cannot be as difficult as driving this sim. >Maybe someone should give Dan Gurney a copy of this sim and see what he has >to say.

I agree !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I wish everyone would stop blaming GPL and Papy for their lack of driving skill and/or bad control setups. I don't claim to know everything about driving, but I have racing experience that varies from karts to stock cars and GPL is one of the best simulations of a racing car that I have ever had the pleasure to drive. Yes, it has the steepest learning curve of any sim. But, it is far from undrivable and not real as the header says. I have just got my lap times under 1:10 in the Lotus and expect them to drop further with more seat time. Do me a favor, download some of the fast lap time replays from The Apex, http://gpl.gamestats.com/ watch them, and then come back and tell me that GPL is undrivable. I believe the fastest lap is a 1:07.22. Kyle > Playing GP2 after a stint with GPL makes GP2 seem far far easier in most > respects than GPL. But I happen to agree with you that GPL dosen't seem to > portray reality ..all that sliding around (excuse me, 'drifting') in the > extreme! Its certainly a challenge and a handfull, but literally accurate -I > don't think so.

>I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion. Charles, GPL do reflect that era pretty good.... and given the fact that it's bloddy hard to driver the car fast just goes to show how good the driver back then were. It's very true they didnt slide the cars as much as you or other here might do.. but that again only goes to show how great many of the drivers of the era was. It wasnt like modern F1 were money talks and not skill... A good "drift" was the important thing back then... at certain tracks that is... however at The Glen... corner exit speed is VERY important and not a good drift. I suggest you head over to the Apex ([link lost in import] and down load a replay or two. You wond find any of the guys doing 1:07's *** their tail out. Another secret lay in braking... go easy on the pedal and dont lock the wheels up. You'll cut braking distance alot that way. -- Best, Edwin Solheim ed_ on NROS The Paddock - a legendary site..: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

:> I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's :> F1 car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen :> 60's F1 footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they :> negotiate corners or even straights and when they brake they do so :> cleanly. I'm not even at full speed and I find the car wants to have :> an off-road excursion. I'm the same way here. I find that if I even think about braking I can have the rear end out and I'm in the ditch. Even if I come into the corner with my hair on fire and expect to get a push situation, the moment I turn the wheel I get a loose condition (and this is withOUT braking and FULL throttle). I think my main problem is frame rate. I only have a P166, but I do have a Voodoo2 card. I am not sure of the FPS since it is never displayed, but I have to have absolutely everything turned off to even get something that closely resembles a frame rate of at least 10-12 fps. I find that coming into the last corner before the start/finish is where I have the most trouble. The FR is really low there and since the corner is actually setup by turning slightly left before turning right that I almost always loop it there. That and the fact that I think the steering is just too quick for me right now. I hope we will get to adjust the steering lock like in the other sims. That should help me out for sure. I already have it on max Non-Linear. And now for the irrelevant part. I have driven race cars at full speed on both a road course (Indianapolis Raceway Park) and an oval (the Milwaukee Mile). I have spun on both. The road course was because I did not match the revs properly on a downshift and the rears locked up when I let out the clutch and spun me. The oval was because I was left-foot braking and I upset the balance while turning and the thing did two 360's in turn 2. I did not hit the wall since I scrubbed LOTS of speed off doing the doughnuts!! :) So I can drive a car. I think that once I get a monster machine (ie a P2 - 333) that will allow me to get a better frame rate I will vastly improve my lap times. But until then I will just have fun sliding off every time I just touch the brakes due to the lack of reaction time caused by the low frame rate. :( -- -------------------------------------

Just out of curiousity, how much ram do you have in your machine? You should be getting very playable framerates with a 166 and V2. I have a P200 classic w/ 80 MB and a voodoo 1 and the framerate is quite good with all details at 640x480. The only time I get a framerate slowdown is if I get into a guard rail down one of the straights and throw up a lot of dust/smoke. Kyle

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> I think my main problem is frame rate. I only have a P166, but I do have > a Voodoo2 card. I am not sure of the FPS since it is never displayed, > but I have to have absolutely everything turned off to even get something > that closely resembles a frame rate of at least 10-12 fps. > I find that coming into the last corner before the start/finish is where I > have the most trouble. The FR is really low there and since the corner is > actually setup by turning slightly left before turning right that I almost > always loop it there. > I think that once I get a monster machine (ie a > P2 - 333) that will allow me to get a better frame rate I will vastly > improve my lap times. But until then I will just have fun sliding off > every time I just touch the brakes due to the lack of reaction time caused > by the low frame rate. :(

> It all depends on the driver. Jacques Villeneuve likes to hack at his > steering wheel very frenetically. If you ever watched Alain Prost drive an > F1 car -- you would realise that a race car can be driven ***y fast with a > minimum of arms and hands flailing around in the***pit. Which brings us right to the point Mak - learn to drive!

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> >I've always wondered why the drivers hands are always > >moving fast back and forth in those modern day > >in-the-cockpit shots. Certainly a modern F1 or > >whatever-they-call-them-now cars can't be that > >hard to drive. ;) > >- Matt

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> I wish everyone would stop blaming GPL and Papy for their lack of > driving skill and/or bad control setups. I don't claim to know > everything about driving, but I have racing experience that varies from > karts to stock cars and GPL is one of the best simulations of a racing > car that I have ever had the pleasure to drive. Yes, it has the steepest > learning curve of any sim. But, it is far from undrivable and not real > as the header says. > I have just got my lap times under 1:10 in the Lotus and expect them to > drop further with more seat time. Do me a favor, download some of the > fast lap time replays from The Apex, http://gpl.gamestats.com/ watch > them, and then come back and tell me that GPL is undrivable. I believe > the fastest lap is a 1:07.22.

Isn't it ammusing to see people who have no idea about these cars or the physics of the situation claim that this sim is not realistic. I suppose as sims model the reality of racing better and better the elite will be very much so alienated from the arcaders. Maybe it's just about time to split this NG in 2. Perhaps rec.autos.simulators.casual and rec.autos.simulators.diehard :)))))))

On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:25:56 -0400, "Charles Mak" >I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion. The strange thing is, my car doesn't do anything like you describe. It stays on the track, follows my inputs, doesn't appear at all drunk and is basically extremely driveable. Could it <gasp of horror> be....you!?!? Cheers! John

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> On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:25:56 -0400, "Charles Mak" > >I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real > 60's F1 > >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen > 60's F1 > >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate > >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. > I'm not > >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road > excursion. > The strange thing is, my car doesn't do anything like you describe. It > stays on the track, follows my inputs, doesn't appear at all drunk and > is basically extremely driveable. Could it <gasp of horror> > be....you!?!? > Cheers! > John

Weird, I get the same stuff here..........it just keeps on following my orders.He could of course have gotten a bad copy:))) Chin-chin, Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

I think you need to consider the fact that you may not have the skill to drive this sim yet.It takes a lot of hours to master these sims. I remeber my first lap with N2. I can turn 1m 13 sec laps smooth as silk no wheel lockups, no offroad excursions, a little tail sliding but all very controllable. I also can turn 1 m 18 sec laps completely out of control. The difference is, how focused I am. It's all a matter of driving style, You may be trying to hard. I can't verify that this is an accurate sim of a 1960's F1 car, but I do feel confident that this is an accurate sim of a 400hp, 1100lb car with poor tires. I never drove a 1960's Lotus but have driven a many motorcycles with a similiar power to weight ratio, several drag cars and a couple of High HP cars on street tires, and have found some of these to be just as impossible to drive if lacking the experience. -- Kevin Anderson ICQ # 6769389 Oscar FB Div. 10 >I've put previous posts up about the steering and braking problems I'm >having with GPL. Mine is a minority view -- everyone else thinks GPL is >more or less simulates the real thing when it comes to driving a 67 Lotus, >Repco-Brabham or Eagle. >I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not

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> This isn't a black/white issue of GPL being either totally realistic, >or totally unrealistic Byron, I'm suprised at the simple minded approach you >are taking. The demo is interesting to drive, but its not above criticism. >Now I know you love GPL like it was life itself, but don't take it personal >that some people(like me) think GPL is a little biased towards 'showy' car >dynamics. That dosen't mean I think its SHIT, or that its TOTALLY >unrealistic,got it!

Finally, someone who has this thing in perspective! I too can't believe people are defending this game so vigorously. It's pretty fun to drive, but I think its going to suck for racing. It's just to hard to run consistant laps. In 10 laps, my times will have a 10 sec range. I know a bunch of you are going to say I need more practice.... true. But this is just like anyother Papy sim when it comes to road courses. They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this. Bottom line IMO, there are 2 schools, Geoff Crammond and Papyrus. I like the Crammond way. People who disagree.... hmmm...let me guess which one you like.

% Dude, the steering is different for many good reasons, so what? % 'Going through a corner at full speed'...what are you TALKING about? A real % car? GPL? a BMW? The program that we call GPL was written with an exagerrated % amount of drifting in my opinion, and this novelty is at the same time very % popular. And dude, I live on dirt roads and have a 440 Mopar, OK, so I know % all about losing the back end when ever I want to. I really think that if GPL had a full forcefeedback system installed that could translate full***pit tilt, yaw, pitch, etc., you might change your tune. What makes the demo seem "exaggerated" to you is the absence of that feedback. However, Papy has put very minor cues that if one takes the time to pickup help compensate for this. It's not perfect, but it's the closest I've seen to date in an auto simulation. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

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> I've put previous posts up about the steering and braking problems I'm > having with GPL. Mine is a minority view -- everyone else thinks GPL is > more or less simulates the real thing when it comes to driving a 67 Lotus, > Repco-Brabham or Eagle. > I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 > car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 > footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate > corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not > even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion. > When I see Formula 1600 novices try their hands out in one of those > open-wheeled things, I do not see them meandering all over the track, > desperately trying to stay in the racing groove, under acceleration, > braking, at speed. Even as these novices gain speed they still maintain the > racing line. With GPL, even if you start slow, it is still hard to keep in > the groove. > You can all refute me, but until someone with actual 60's racecar experience > proves otherwise to me, I'll keep on taking the minority view -- GPL does > not realistically portray the driving experience. In fact I'll go on and > say that driving a 60's F1 car cannot be as difficult as driving this sim. > Maybe someone should give Dan Gurney a copy of this sim and see what he has > to say.

I have to agree with you somewhat. There is no doubt that GPL is hatd to drive(maybe unrealisticly). My basic problem with the demo is it's lack of visual clues of speed which makes driving too mechanical. The sensation of speed and the perceived closure rate to turns are totally unrealistic. I have absolutely no problems visualizing speed and closure with GP2, IRC2 and N2. Although good laps on road courses do require braking , turning and shifting points to be somewhat mechanically applied in these sims, it is absolutely mandatory in GPL and I takes some of the fun out of the game. I find it interesting that after I spin or run off course when I think I'm going relatively slow and go to the replay, the replay shows me going twice as fast as I thought. I know that I will get flamed for this,but IMHO this demo is not what it is cracked up to be(I do realize it is a pre-alpha), it's just the new kid on the block and with time you will see more and more criticism, constructive or otherwise.

>dude GP2 turn with the center of their car, not from their front wheels. Of >course the steering is completely different. Also with a rear wheel drive >car, there's no way in hell you can go through a corner at full speed >without losing the back end (just try it with a BMW) That depends, I think. Practically any street car, (and surely something as domesticated as a BMW) will be way biased towards understeer. If you turn the wheel hard entering a turn, chances are you'll slide the front wheels right across the track without ever breaking the back loose. You need to use the throttle to and turn very hard to induce oversteer. I have a 5 liter Mustang, which has a hideous frontal weight bias, and it will still understeer, light ass-end and all. Looking at the numbers, it should be an oversteering monster. I haven't tried the GPL demo yet, but at the risk of being flogged, I loved Sega Rally. I like real physics in sims, but that one is a blast to drive and slide. The "feel" of the slides is very well done. Tim

>snip... >They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to >be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives >like the cars are on ice.... What? I haven't noticed this. I have noticed that it takes a little more finesse on the throttle and brake while trying to run a 2 ton car around road courses. It is certainly easier to get consistency on ovals but with a little work, you can do the same on the road courses. Mike

>>dude GP2 turn with the center of their car, not from their front wheels. Of >>course the steering is completely different. Also with a rear wheel drive >>car, there's no way in hell you can go through a corner at full speed >>without losing the back end (just try it with a BMW) What? You can't drive RWD through a corner at full throttle? I must have missed a part of your post because this is just plain untrue. Mike

Mike wrote : So your whining at Papyrus because your not able to run consistent laps with their titles ? I'm soo sorry you must be very close to dying because of that. <sniff> "In real racing, they turn lap within the tenths and hundredths of a sec. " I agree. Oookkkk..... So let's take the 20 best drivers on the NROS, put them on Sears Point or the Glen, and make then race. You will find that your statement is true, that the best drivers here can do laps within tenths of a sec between each and other. But it's on a Road Course of a Papyrus simulator ??? hmmm.. something must be wrong here... some people are able. <grin>. Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

Charles Mak wrote Ok, I take your point. But why are you judging the product because of the other people. Shouldn't GPL be a personnal experience (especially the demo, there is no multiplayer or AI capabilities). Why do you whine at Papyrus because of what the others are doing ? If you do 1:18 consistent laps in the demo with the GP car per example, what is bad about this ? But because some other people you will never see do 1:07, this means the game is crap, doesn't mean anything to you anymore ?? I don't see your point here. Today, I saw at least 3 people whine at Papyrus because they say the game is ruined because some poeple use some arcadish style of racing. But if you don't use it, where's the bad ? Is this some sort of jalousy, or maybe a lost of self-esteem that everybody is having today ?. I dunno, something is wrong here... Maybe I should whine against them, telling that their simulator sucks 'cause I run consistent twenty 1:13 laps in a row. <vbfg> Oh well... back to the NROS. Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I undertand your point. It just sims that there is no other way to achieve a fast lap at Watkins Glen without resorting to driving arcade style. This, considering that the qualifying lap at this race in 1967 was in the range of 1:05. And back then they didn't resort to 'arcade style: racing to achieve those times. What I'm saying is that anyone who can (and probably will) achieve 1:05 will only do it driving in a fiendishly arcady style. This is the sad fact of GPL.

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>Charles Mak wrote >>I understand your point. But how do you explain the phenomemom of a Chris >>Boll type who can do 1:07 within days of getting this sim? I'll tell you >>how -- these guys use arcade racing technques. >Ok, I take your point. >But why are you judging the product because of the other people. Shouldn't >GPL be a personnal experience (especially the demo, there is no multiplayer >or AI capabilities). Why do you whine at Papyrus because of what the

others >are doing ? >If you do 1:18 consistent laps in the demo with the GP car per example, what

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>is bad about this ? But because some other people you will never see do >1:07, this means the game is crap, doesn't mean anything to you anymore ?? >I don't see your point here. Today, I saw at least 3 people whine at >Papyrus because they say the game is ruined because some poeple use some >arcadish style of racing. But if you don't use it, where's the bad ? Is >this some sort of jalousy, or maybe a lost of self-esteem that everybody is >having today ?. I dunno, something is wrong here... >Maybe I should whine against them, telling that their simulator sucks

'cause >I run consistent twenty 1:13 laps in a row. <vbfg> Oh well... back to the

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>NROS. >Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ >Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) >Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. >Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) >Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) >--"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise >how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

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> Finally, someone who has this thing in perspective! I too can't > believe people are defending this game so vigorously. It's pretty fun > to drive, but I think its going to suck for racing. It's just to hard > to run consistant laps. In 10 laps, my times will have a 10 sec range. > I know a bunch of you are going to say I need more practice.... true. > But this is just like anyother Papy sim when it comes to road courses. > They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to > be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives > like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after > lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on > a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this.

I'm one of these people who like GPL :) and I love road courses over ovals. ovals are so damn boring. So of course i have to do my little bit to defend GPL :) At the moment you're saying GPL is like driving on ice and you can't control the car well enough to lap consistantly. I still can't either, and i've probably clocked up around 25 hours inthe***pit so far, and can lap at 1:08.5 on a good lap. Now, let's compare that to the real racers at F1 or Indycar level out there. They've raced cars/karts etc since they were 10 or so. They have thousands and thousands of hours of seat time on a race track. Take F1 for an example - before a F1 driver is given a licence to race in a genuine F1 race, they have to clock up something like 2000-3000 miles in a F1 car in practice sessions. That's why they lap so consistantly. Once you or anyone has done 2000 miles in GPL, then still complains about not being able to lap consistantly, I'll give their opinion more weight:) Meanwhile i still think GPL feels the best of any sim to drive. I've never raced myself, but I have a reasonably good idea what it should feel like since i've driven cars for over 7 years. And i've seen too many sim drivers who actaully race real cars complimenting the GPL sim model. I respect your opinion, but i ask that you give the sim quite a lot more effort before you start carving it up as being too hard to drive. Like CPR - i can't drive that for shit, but i simply haven't given it enough of a go to start learning to control it, but i don't trash it for being too hard to drive. I don't really like it, so i simply don't drive it:) Like anything, it takes a while to learn to drive a new car right on the edge of control. It takes time to learn to feel all the subtleties required to control the car on a fine edge. I don't expect you learned to walk and then run in one week, right?:) I play piano - it's taken me over 10 years to reach the level where i am now, and i still consider myself just an ok player. like, i can't play a 25 minute song perfectly, i always end up making some mistakes. does that mean i trash the piano for being too hard to play? nope, i just practice more. cheers, Grant.

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 10:40:22 +1200, Grant Reeve Where to start..... First off.... I never trashed it. I said it suffers the same problems ICR 1/2 and Nascar 1/2 when it comes to road courses. I also said I like the driving model in GP2 better than the way Papyrus does it. It's what I like, obviously not what you like. I played the hell out of the ICR1. I loved it. In fact, I was the first person to break 1:04 at laguna(the old papyrus BBS used to keep track of those things). But even with all the time and practice, it was still harder than hell to turn lap after lap of consistant times. Racing nose to tail is what make sims fun to me.... keeping it on the road isn't. Crammond's way of doing things allows me to do that. Papyrus's doesn't. In the papyrus sims, I spend way to much effort keeping it off the wall, not racing with the other cars. Does papyrus do it more realistic.... I don't know... never drove and indycar or F1 car (7 years of driving experience doesn't mean squat). But let's say for arguments sake they do. Regardless of how realistic it is, they have yet to simulate how it really feels driving down the road... ie - wind in the face, G's, the rear end breaking loose. Because they can't simulate how the car feels, it makes the player focus way to much on driving and too little on racing, IMO. I would rather race. If I'm going to spend 25 hours in the seat playing a "game". The vast majority of the time better be enjoying the race.... not learning how to drive the car. With respect to to the years it takes to become an F1 driver, piano player, etc... what's the point? This is a game, not real life. Would you truely expect anyone to spend several years learning this or any other game? Bottom line.... I like racing crammond's semi-realistic model more than racing papyrus' semi-realistic model. It's not a slam... it's my opinion. I also hope GPL is really an alpha version, that way it could possibly get better,IMO. Now off to the only true Sim out there today..... StarCraft! :-)

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> Finally, someone who has this thing in perspective! I too can't > believe people are defending this game so vigorously. It's pretty fun > to drive, but I think its going to suck for racing. It's just to hard > to run consistant laps. In 10 laps, my times will have a 10 sec range. > I know a bunch of you are going to say I need more practice.... true. > But this is just like anyother Papy sim when it comes to road courses. > They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to > be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives > like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after > lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on > a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this. > Bottom line IMO, there are 2 schools, Geoff Crammond and Papyrus. I > like the Crammond way. People who disagree.... hmmm...let me guess > which one you like.

I am sure I have seen the cars from this era consistantly take corners with their bum*** out. Also, perhaps one of the differences between GP2 and Papy sims is the way the tyre noise is done. Papy sims seem to give you more warning than GP2 does which can be argued for or against I suppose. The Papy way is a substitute for G forces perhaps. Anyway, do you really want sims to get easier? I have about 7 or 8 hours with GPL and have done a best of 1.08.2 so far (man, did that Voodoo 2 make a difference - immediate increase of 1 sec). I can lap very consistantly in the 1.08s (and this is even hotlapping) with the odd 1.09. And I'm still learning the sim and the track :))) All I can say is that if you don't like GPL you don't like racing sims! I just can't wait to get my hands on some setup options and get out in the traffic.

I'm not taking anything personal! It seems many of you are comparing GPL to CART/F1 cars which is just nonsense. In GPL you have NO downforce, grooved hard compound tyres and twice the body weight. Why would you expect magnatraction? There are real race drivers here who say the physics model is very impressive indeed. Have a read and have a think about it.

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> This isn't a black/white issue of GPL being either totally realistic, > or totally unrealistic Byron, I'm suprised at the simple minded approach you > are taking. The demo is interesting to drive, but its not above criticism. > Now I know you love GPL like it was life itself, but don't take it personal > that some people(like me) think GPL is a little biased towards 'showy' car > dynamics. That dosen't mean I think its SHIT, or that its TOTALLY > unrealistic,got it? > > Isn't it ammusing to see people who have no idea about these cars or > > the physics of the situation claim that this sim is not realistic. I > > suppose as sims model the reality of racing better and better the elite > > will be very much so alienated from the arcaders. Maybe it's just about > > time to split this NG in 2. Perhaps rec.autos.simulators.casual and > > rec.autos.simulators.diehard :)))))))

> Edwin do you REALLY think that just because GPL is modeled to drive the > way it does, that this proves how brave they were back then? I can't believe > you are that gullible. The letters t-r-e-e are not the same thing as an > actual tree growing in the ground! It only proves Papy can make a sim that > uses LOTS of drift. So now all the drivers of this era were wimps aye? Because the cars back then had outstanding traction and did not drift at all and could stop on a dime? I suppose they raced on magnetic tracks back then and had 10,000 pounds of downforce at each wheel? And the cars weren't really that heavy, they were just trying to trick everyone!

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> I have to agree with you somewhat. There is no doubt that GPL is hatd > to drive(maybe unrealisticly). My basic problem with the demo is it's > lack of visual clues of speed which makes driving too mechanical. The > sensation of speed and the perceived closure rate to turns are totally > unrealistic. I have absolutely no problems visualizing speed and > closure with GP2, IRC2 and N2. Although good laps on road courses do > require braking , turning and shifting points to be somewhat > mechanically applied in these sims, it is absolutely mandatory in GPL > and I takes some of the fun out of the game. I find it interesting that > after I spin or run off course when I think I'm going relatively slow > and go to the replay, the replay shows me going twice as fast as I > thought.

No visual cues???? It has the best 3D***pit anywhere and you say this? You guys are just plain hopeless I'm afraid! This sim gives more feedback as to what's going on than any other by a mile! It seems your so pitiful that you can't even get yourself thru the process of learning the braking points. LOL. Give the man some wings before he kills himself! And the fools that do will get flamed just like you if it's as obvious as this that they're just that hopeless. It took everyone hours and hours to get good at sims like ICR2/GP2 and I thank Papy very much for making GPL the same. It's what makes for greatness - not some stupid arcade kiddy thing that is mastered in half an hour and boring you shitless half an hour after that!

>They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to >be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives >like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after >lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on >a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this. Thing is, I can turn lap after lap within tenths of each other - in F1GP, in ICR2, in GP2 and now in GPL. Trouble is, since you are the self proclaimed barometer of what is a sim and what isn't, we'll have to consign all Papy sims to the "wrong" closet since you cant drive them. GP2 has been around a while and so far you've tried a pre-alpha demo of GPL. Give yourself a chance to get good and then re-evaluate. Cheers! John

BS!! I just feel that you are frustrated and can't drive, I have run some 1m07s. . blap being a 1m07.23.. I guess you have never driven a real car with handicaps? And please don't even compare the sim to GP2, F1rs, ICr2, or cpr.. They all diff er from one certain era.. Wha.. Here's your bottle. ------------------------------------------------------------------ Hungry for NEWSGROUPS??? USE feedME.ORG Read and Post to 30,000 groups through feedME.ORG FREE FREE FREE http://www.feedME.ORG FREE FREE FREE ------------------------------------------------------------------

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>Thing is, I can turn lap after lap within tenths of each other - in >F1GP, in ICR2, in GP2 and now in GPL. Trouble is, since you are the >self proclaimed barometer of what is a sim and what isn't, we'll have >to consign all Papy sims to the "wrong" closet since you cant drive >them. >GP2 has been around a while and so far you've tried a pre-alpha demo >of GPL. Give yourself a chance to get good and then re-evaluate. >Cheers! >John

Hey John..... put some more words in my mouth.... k? If you bothered to read my post you would see that this is my opinion. So, since you're the new "self proclaimed barometer" , I stand corrected. It is a very good simulation of driving. My apologies to the group. Can you get a bit more arrogant?

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> > On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 19:25:56 -0400, "Charles Mak" > > >I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real > > 60's F1 > > >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen > > 60's F1 > > >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate > > >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. > > I'm not > > >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road > > excursion. > > The strange thing is, my car doesn't do anything like you describe. It > > stays on the track, follows my inputs, doesn't appear at all drunk and > > is basically extremely driveable. Could it <gasp of horror> > > be....you!?!? > > Cheers! > > John > Weird, I get the same stuff here..........it just keeps on following my > orders.He could of course have gotten a bad copy:))) > Chin-chin, > Matt

My car had to be trained. At first it didn't want to stay on the road but after a few days it started obeying orders most of the time. Alan

I may be wrong, but I think this is due to the fact that in a real racecar steering becomes harder as speed increases, a fact principally caused by the inertial forces of rotation of the wheels. And also if you turn the wheel let's say 15 degrees while you're running slowly and 15 degrees when you're going fast, your wheels aren't supposed to turn to the same angle in both cases, they should turn less when you're going fast because there are huge forces that fight their movement. Since you cannot move the steering as fast as when you're moving slowly, it is possible to make slight corrections on your trajectory that are based on pure reflexes. I don't think that this is possible with the steering wheels we use, because our reflexes cause too strong inputs to the wheel. I think what Papy's driving sims need is a "reduce with speed" option, a la GP2. That would make the car much more controleable when you're on a straightaway in my opinion. Anyone agrees with me on that? A. Renault

> I understand your point. But how do you explain the phenomemom of a > Chris > Boll type who can do 1:07 within days of getting this sim? I'll tell > you > how -- these guys use arcade racing technques. Ok. Some of my favourite ARCADE RACERS:.... Gilles Villeneuve Keke Rosberg Jean Alesi Michael Schumacher Alan Jones Ayrton Senna Jim Clark If you have seen any of these guys in action, you'll notice one common thing: -If their car drives like a dog, they pick it up by the scruff of the neck, and pull out a great laptime!! And how? By throwing it around! They may not get the pole, but they sure as hell were far ahead of their team.mates! But since you were watching 1963 1.5 litre cars, and thinking there were no difference to the 3-litre '69 cars, I think that you are probably nosing through a book now. (Chris did a great lap, but I'm not comparing him to any of the above..hehehe) Cheers, Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

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> > I understand your point. But how do you explain the phenomemom of a > > Chris > > Boll type who can do 1:07 within days of getting this sim? I'll > tell > > you > > how -- these guys use arcade racing technques. > Ok. Some of my favourite ARCADE RACERS:.... > Gilles Villeneuve > Keke Rosberg > Jean Alesi > Michael Schumacher > Alan Jones > Ayrton Senna > Jim Clark > If you have seen any of these guys in action, you'll notice one common > thing: > -If their car drives like a dog, they pick it up by the scruff of the > neck, and pull out a great laptime!! And how? By throwing it around! > They may not get the pole, but they sure as hell were far ahead of > their > team.mates! > But since you were watching 1963 1.5 litre cars, and thinking there > were > no difference to the 3-litre '69 cars, I think that you are probably > nosing through a book now.

ARGH! '67 cars (need coffee) -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

Without a doubt, these cars were much harder to drive than their present-day counterparts. Of course, an F1 car nowadays can go a lot faster, so things sort of even out. 1967 cars required a different kind of driving. The video "Driving to Win" is an excellent source of information on how to drive fast. It's basically a three-day Jim Russel driving school on tape. Drivers go around Mont Tremblant (correct me if I'm wrong) on Formula Ford 1600s, and there are laps upon laps of in-car footage. They even take the bodywork off the car so you can see what the driver does with his feet, which is extremely important. You'll see that cars are basically just sliding around, even if they seem perfectly balanced and neutral. I found it amazing that when a car is perfectly neutral in handling, it actually means that the front and rear tires are slipping at the same angle in corners (the difference between where the wheels are turned, and where the centrifugal force wants to put them. If the rears slip more, you oversteer, for example). Anyone who's driven hubcaps off family sedans in tight turns can appreciate this. Anyway, I highly recommend this video...In it you'll hear Mario Andretti compare an Indy Car to the (then) IROC-Zs they used to drive, and the way he described the IROC was similar to the way you describe GPL...short of undriveable in comparison! As to the sim itself, I would personally like to see a better rendition of speed. You get some feedback in driving sims, but actually only a tiny percentage of what you get in real life. The seat of your pants is extremely important in driving, and because that can't be modeled in home PCs (just like we can't really have Gs in flight sims), we need all the help we can get... L.S. P.S. Try playing with the throttle during those turns, you'll see how you can lift to make it point the right direction, and throttle to tuck the tail back in. Also, try not to "trail brake" brake into the corner with this sim, at first. It's better to do all your braking and shifting in a straight line. Then smoothly attack the apex of the turn. I've only played this thing for a couple of days, so don't ask me about lap times...they still suck.

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>I've put previous posts up about the steering and braking problems I'm >having with GPL. Mine is a minority view -- everyone else thinks GPL is >more or less simulates the real thing when it comes to driving a 67 Lotus, >Repco-Brabham or Eagle. >I refuse to believe that all this sliding around simulates a real 60's F1 >car. The car drives like its a drunk on a dirt road. I've seen 60's F1 >footage -- the cars do not slide all over the track as they negotiate >corners or even straights and when they brake they do so cleanly. I'm not >even at full speed and I find the car wants to have an off-road excursion. >When I see Formula 1600 novices try their hands out in one of those >open-wheeled things, I do not see them meandering all over the track, >desperately trying to stay in the racing groove, under acceleration, >braking, at speed. Even as these novices gain speed they still maintain

the >racing line. With GPL, even if you start slow, it is still hard to keep in >the groove. >You can all refute me, but until someone with actual 60's racecar experience >proves otherwise to me, I'll keep on taking the minority view -- GPL does >not realistically portray the driving experience. In fact I'll go on and >say that driving a 60's F1 car cannot be as difficult as driving this sim. >Maybe someone should give Dan Gurney a copy of this sim and see what he has >to say.

I completely agree with you. GPL definitely could use a "reduce with speed" option. Without that option GPL would be unnecessarily hard to drive, much harder than the real thing. You have made an excellent point that Papyrus should take note of.

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>Since you cannot move the steering as fast as when you're moving >slowly, it is possible to make slight corrections on your trajectory >that are based on pure reflexes. I don't think that this is possible >with the steering wheels we use, because our reflexes cause too strong >inputs to the wheel. >I think what Papy's driving sims need is a "reduce with speed" option, >a la GP2. That would make the car much more controleable when you're >on a straightaway in my opinion. Anyone agrees with me on that? >A. Renault

Yep! I've always thought that GP2's control options have been the benchmark for user configurability. Cheers, Richard

>But this is just like anyother Papy sim when it comes to road courses. >They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to >be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives >like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after >lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on >a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this. It is largely seat time and knowing your own limits. If I set out to drive consistently then I can pretty much do so regardless of the sim. My times only vary wildly when I am deliberately seeking the limits. So yes, I can drive the ICR2 & N2 road courses within a tenth or so. atm I'm just pushing GPL as hard as possible to learn as much about the cars as possible, so my lap times are rather erratic. But I'll have a go at consistency once I've learnt more about how to recover from mistakes. <later> OK, I've just done a 20 lap test aiming to be consistent rather than fast. 14 laps were between 1:09.2 and 1:09.9, the best was 1:08.9 and the worst 1:10.5. Not brilliantly consistent - and certainly not fast - but about as good as I was after the same amount of seat time with GP2. </later> Personally I consider GP2 to be the pinnacle of first generation offline racing sims. But GPL, even in this very early form, has taken a big step forward in vehicle dynamics. I really hope that GC pays attention to it because if he just builds on GP2 (as he indicated in the PC Format Gold interview) then he is going to be left behind. Unfortunately he is somewhat notorious for ignoring the opposition :( Cheers, Richard

Do you have any evidence to support this? People are getting 1:07s with the car being a little untidy. Certainly in my case I know that being more tidy is the way to improving my lap times. I'm just in the 1:07s but I'm losing quite a bit through the car getting out of shape. A 1:06 would be on if I could control the car better. To get to a 1:05 will require the ultimate in car control, not throwing it about ala CPR, GP2 or F1RS! Cheers, Richard

>At the moment you're saying GPL is like driving on ice ... YESsSSssssss! It's a LOT like driving on ice! I've done some ice-racing, see <[link lost in import: /~trauttf/Ice/]>, in both studded and *** classes. Even with an underpowered car like a Chevette, it's still possible to get wheel-spin in 4th gear in the *** class races. And closing the throttle too suddenly will also cause the back end to step out. Smooth throttle control is essential. With powerful engines driving skinny treaded tires, the GP cars of 67 had to be a huge handful to control. Because it's Easter weekend, all the stores are closed here. Otherwise I'd be out buying a memory upgrade and 3dfx card right now. I can only run GPL in 320x200 screen resolution with all details turned off and still the frame rate is so slow that I'm always a second or two behind the action with my steering inputs. I've just seen some of the images on The Apex <[link lost in import] and WOWWW! Is that what it's supposed to look like??? I gotta have it.... -Ferdinand-

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>>- these guys use arcade racing technques. >Ok. Some of my favourite ARCADE RACERS:.... >Gilles Villeneuve >Keke Rosberg >Jean Alesi >Michael Schumacher >Alan Jones >Ayrton Senna >Jim Clark

AMEN! Add Ronnie Peterson to that list. -Ferdinand-

> I understand your point. But how do you explain the phenomemom of a Chris > Boll type who can do 1:07 within days of getting this sim? I'll tell you > how -- these guys use arcade racing technques. What exactly are arcade racing techniques? Using cheat codes, using something in the sim that is not possible in reality? Didn't see that on his lap... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

snip > I am sure I have seen the cars from this era consistantly take > corners with their bum*** out. Also, perhaps one of the differences Just two days ago I saw footage of Fangio (agreed, late 50's) using a***pit view camera (!). He was sliding his car around like crazy... The footage of the late 60's showed cars doing the same. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

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> On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 22:20:56 -0400, "Charles Mak" > >I undertand your point. It just sims that there is no other way to > achieve > >a fast lap at Watkins Glen without resorting to driving arcade > style. This, > >considering that the qualifying lap at this race in 1967 was in the > range of > >1:05. And back then they didn't resort to 'arcade style: racing to > achieve > >those times. > >What I'm saying is that anyone who can (and probably will) achieve > 1:05 will > >only do it driving in a fiendishly arcady style. > >This is the sad fact of GPL. > Do you have any evidence to support this? People are getting 1:07s > with > the car being a little untidy. Certainly in my case I know that being > more tidy is the way to improving my lap times. I'm just in the 1:07s > but > I'm losing quite a bit through the car getting out of shape. A 1:06 > would > be on if I could control the car better.

A 1:06 is definitely on. In the pre-alpha, my current best is a 1:06.62 (no replay saved - was in race with AI and the sheer size washed it away). I have a saved 1:06.82 and its very tidy, indeed. One small puff of smoke in the last turn and nary a tail-wag in sight. The current build allows you to get rid of all *** habits..........except the human ones <g>...........if you can figure it out. BTW, how have you been, Rik? :)

> >I think what Papy's driving sims need is a "reduce with speed" option, > >a la GP2. That would make the car much more controleable when you're > >on a straightaway in my opinion. Anyone agrees with me on that? > Yep! I've always thought that GP2's control options have been the > benchmark for user configurability. Unless you want to switch gears with a joystick axis (TM GP1)! I still think, ICR2/N2 are the best in this department. Let the user decide, how to activate what sim function. l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 10:59:31 -0600, [email hidden] wrote: I'm finally going to get off of lurk mode and into this little debate: First off, a bit of background on myself: I've been racing almost anything with wheels (and some things without) for as long as I can remember, starting with mini bikes (remember those?) back when I was around 6 or so. I've raced motocross (back in the '70's), karts (also in the '70's) and finally gave it all up when it just got too damned expensive to play with the big boys with the big bucks. I got back into racing through autocross events in the last few years. Dusted off my driving skills and managed to do rather decently at it over the last few years. In '96, my first year back behind the wheel competitively, I started out in novice class with a bone-stock Miata. I won novice class my first time out, but was 8 seconds behind the overall class winner. By the time the season was half done I was still winning in novice, but was still behind the class leaders....but now only by less than a second per run. By August (and some 120+ runs of extra experience in the same car) I was now only .007 off the fastest guys. I managed to win the season points champ. in C Stock (novice) and for 1997 moved up to C Street Prepared (allowing me to change springs, sway bars, etc.). In '97 I managed entered 16 races in our region...winning 8, with 6 2nd place, a 3rd, and a 5th. (3 of the events I had fastest time of day for all classes at the event.) I won the season points champ. by 2 points (that 5th place finish) over a fella with a very quick Sentra SE-R with all the hot parts. I also raced out of my region with a local area sports car club and won CSP all 5 times out, and taking event FTD all 5 times. I'm rather familiar with car setups and such, and I believe I am reasonably capable of driving a car to it's limits...with having enough seat time to become familiar with the car and it's capabilities and limits. Now, on to sims: I've also been a computer geek of sorts for the last 20 years, and having been such, I was naturally drawn to driving simulators, starting with the original "Pole Position" from Atari on the 8-bit machines way back in 1984 or so. The original "Test Drive" for the Atari ST back in 1986 was a giant leap forward, as were some of the other "sims" to come down the road over the years. However, none of them have ever seemed much more than an arcade game to me...even some of the ones which I see folks raving about in this n.g. I tried ICR2, and found it to be rather unrealistic. N2 seemed to be much more "believe able" to my tastes, but even then something was missing, and that something was being able to power slide a car predictably at it's limits. It seems that for the most part, all "sims" understeer to me. I think this comes from a sim's inherent limit, that being it's ability to convey that actual feeling of speed to the driver. I don't think it's something that will ever be easily overcome on a 2-D screen...it's something that can only be experienced in a real car on a real course with real walls/trees/armco/hay bales. The corner coming up fast....wait...TOO FAST..the honest-to-God "oh shit, this is gonna HURT!..." is missing, and that can't be recreated (and thankfully for most sim "drivers" out there, it won't be!). Until then most of us will overcook the turns and understeer our way into whatever off track object awaits us. I see the constant griping about how "this is unrealistic" vs. brand x, or brand y , etc. Let me tell you this, based upon my driving experiences, and I'll say no, I haven't driven an F1 car, nor anything close to it, but GPL is the closest thing I've seen to the "real" thing of driving a car at it's limits...any car!. I was able to load the software, set up the controls, and promptly hit damn near every off-track obstacle there is/was at the Glen...and loved every minute of it! For those naysayers out there, quit your complaining...this *is* realistic. Until someone comes out with a hydraulically operated chair that gives real time "seat of the pants" feedback about a car's adhesion (or lack thereof), this is a close as it gets. I was able to immediately get a "feel" for the way the car behaved on the track...quite unlike the totally disconnected lack of feel in the other "sims". For those who need more realism, try an experiment: Grab the car of your choice and start making laps...when you overcook the corner and do a bit of "agricultural racing" and hit a hay bale (they are rather solid in the real world, even when dry), take a rubber hammer and smack yourself a few times in the face and arms...go ahead, get some good bruises so you won't forget to take a corner a bit easier the next time. Now, go back to the paddock and change cars to your backup car, since you just wasted your primary car (remember, it's now a different car, even if the setup is identical, it won't drive just the same way). If you crash again, smack yourself a few dozen more times with the hammer (if it's a really good wreck, like a few end over ends, break an arm while you're at it). If you survived the physical abuse end of it, take a week off from driving the sim, since you now have no car to drive anyway. Your mechanics will call you when it's ready for you to tear up again (if you're lucky...you keep tearing up equipment and you'll soon be out of a ride period.) Maybe now you'll approach driving with a honest to God this shit is real attitude. (I'm sure there are loads of Senna fans who wished to God there was something as simple as <Shift - R> for him.) > Edwin do you REALLY think that just because GPL is modeled to drive the >way it does, that this proves how brave they were back then? I can't believe >you are that gullible. The letters t-r-e-e are not the same thing as an >actual tree growing in the ground! It only proves Papy can make a sim that >uses LOTS of drift. I personally think Papy hit it right on the head....those cars can and will drift like that if you let them. Going fast in a car with a terrible rear weight bias and way more horsepower than grip is (and should be) a sobering experience, and one not to be taken lightly. With that much weight on the rear end, it's going to try to swap ends every time you hit the brakes too hard or downshift with a bit too much speed for the downshift...it's also going to drift with throttle application and steer as much with the throttle as with the wheel. This sim will take loads of time to master, mainly because it's so damned unforgiving of mistakes, and yet we have it easy...we just <Shift - R> and we're fixed as good as new. Learning the limits of the car and the track shouldn't be so easy as crashing our way to good times....there should be a price to pay for haste and mistakes. I've put about 5 hours in so far, and I'm down to consistent 1: 17's with a blast at 1:13 (drifting all the way around and grinning ear to ear). I know it'll take me a good 10 more hours to go 1:12 consistent, and probably 50+ hours to be sub 1:10 with no off track excursions.) As for arcade driving being fast, smooth will end up being fastest, but it'll still be in a 4 wheel drift darn near all the way around the track, and that is not an easy thing to master given the one obvious flaw of any sim...the lack of "seat of the pants" feel. GPL does give the driver more visual cues than anything out there so far...it's up to the driver to make the best of them. As for respecting the drivers of thses machines? Hell, yes. I seriously doubt that in today's world of aerodynamics and computer controlled everything, most of today's drivers would be picking their teeth out of the nearest tree for trying to drive these crude beasts with the same kind of style as they do today's cars. I think Senna and Shumacher might have been competitive back then, but most others probably wouldn't be able to qualify, much less race. These cars required *drivers*, not someone to sit behind the wheel and aim it more or less in the right direction. I've got Nomex, so flame away if you must. Just my $0.02 (and perhaps a bit more) Regards to all, Doc Wynne CSP #25 Miata TRSCCA Webmaster http://www.trscca.org -- Rubber Chickens lay those little plastic Easter Eggs.

>Because it's Easter weekend, all the stores are closed here. >Otherwise I'd be out buying a memory upgrade and 3dfx card right now. A good plan, but you should check out second hand 3Dfx cards. Now that Voodoo 2s are out, second hand original 3Dfx cards are cheap and plentiful. Joe

>So, since you're the new "self proclaimed barometer" , I stand >corrected. It is a very good simulation of driving. My apologies to >the group. Ooof, uffff, mmmmmm <sound of words being inserted in my mouth>. Wow, did I say that - I don't think so. I was pointing out your self proclaimed position, not my own. After all, it was your words which brooked no argument. If necessary I'll match you step for step ;-) Cheers! John

> Edwin do you REALLY think that just because GPL is modeled to drive the >way it does, that this proves how brave they were back then? I can't believe >you are that gullible. I dont know about you.... but I for one know a thinor two about racecars and theirs mechanics and handling... What I'm saying is given the limitations they had back then and we have now (i.e stone-hard tires, no downforce what-so-ever and a punchy engine) the cars were bloddy difficult to drive... and THAT goes to show that some of the men who raced flat out with these machines were as brave as the come. Watch some old footage from Spa or something and you'll - hopefully - get the picture. If people cant handle the cars in GPL.... then thats not mine nor Papy's problem. They should either put up or shut up IMHO! -- Best, Edwin Solheim ed_ on NROS The Paddock - a legendary site..: http://home.c2i.net/thepaddock Cheek Junior Team: http://home.sol.no/~solhmrek

THANK GOD for the fact that you have spoken up, Doc!! :-) I was starting to think that was fighting a losing battle here over the past several days in my meagre efforts to convince some of the nay-sayers that yes, indeed, this simulation is the first to approach reality. Thank you for your comments........I don't feel so alone now! :-) > (Lots of great stuff snipped). -- Bruce. (At home)

% Finally, someone who has this thing in perspective! I too can't % believe people are defending this game so vigorously. It's pretty fun % to drive, but I think its going to suck for racing. It's just to hard % to run consistant laps. In 10 laps, my times will have a 10 sec range. % I know a bunch of you are going to say I need more practice.... true. % But this is just like anyother Papy sim when it comes to road courses. % They do great ovals games.... but racing on the road leaves a lot to % be desired. Indycar 1 and 2, nascar 1 and 2.... same problem... drives % like the cars are on ice. In real racing, drivers will turn lap after % lap within tenths or hundreths of a sec. Try to do that in PAPY sim on % a road course. In GP2 (insert collective groan here), I can do this. Funny, I ain't the best sim driver out there, but guess what, I can do it lap after lap on road circuits in both ICR2 & NASCAR2 (and I don't even like ice skating <G>). % Bottom line IMO, there are 2 schools, Geoff Crammond and Papyrus. I % like the Crammond way. People who disagree.... hmmm...let me guess % which one you like. Speaking of schools, maybe these jokers need to be taken out to a Skip Barber School and educated as what it means to drive a race car. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

<snip> % > and I takes some of the fun out of the game. I find it interesting that % > after I spin or run off course when I think I'm going relatively slow % > and go to the replay, the replay shows me going twice as fast as I % > thought. % No visual cues???? It has the best 3D***pit anywhere and you say this? % You guys are just plain hopeless I'm afraid! This sim gives more % feedback as to what's going on than any other by a mile! It seems your % so pitiful that you can't even get yourself thru the process of learning % the braking points. LOL. Give the man some wings before he kills % himself! I have to agree, especially if one is not getting a good fast frame rate display, the "visual" cues of speed are just flat out missing. The better the frame rate the better the visual cues for judging one's speed. We are talking about the 3d tub and the cues given by its movement, as this reflects what one is doing to the car, but not speed. F1RS gives good "visual" cues for speed (track tecture, shadows on the track, close fences or trees flashing past, light playing off and through the trackside objects, etc.). Hopefully once Papy gets the graphics engine optimized we will see a better sense of speed in GLP. I certainly need it. I need every little "cue" I can get to control this beast! % > I know that I will get flamed for this,but IMHO this demo is not what it % > is cracked up to be(I do realize it is a pre-alpha), it's just the new % > kid on the block and with time you will see more and more criticism, % > constructive or otherwise. % And the fools that do will get flamed just like you if it's as % obvious as this that they're just that hopeless. It took everyone hours % and hours to get good at sims like ICR2/GP2 and I thank Papy very much % for making GPL the same. It's what makes for greatness - not some stupid % arcade kiddy thing that is mastered in half an hour and boring you % shitless half an hour after that! -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Ooof, uffff, mmmmmm <sound of words being inserted in my mouth>. Wow, >did I say that - I don't think so. I was pointing out your self >proclaimed position, not my own. After all, it was your words which >brooked no argument. All my positions are self proclaimed (they're mine).... I generally try not to take someone else's position. You should too. :-) hey sheep!

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> I played the hell out of the ICR1. I loved it. In fact, I was the > first person to break 1:04 at laguna(the old papyrus BBS used to keep > track of those things). But even with all the time and practice, it > was still harder than hell to turn lap after lap of consistant times. > Racing nose to tail is what make sims fun to me.... keeping it on the > road isn't. Crammond's way of doing things allows me to do that. > Papyrus's doesn't. In the papyrus sims, I spend way to much effort > keeping it off the wall, not racing with the other cars.

I could go on and on here but I wont. This is just complete garbage. I just ran and won a 24 hour enduro race with Black Squirrel at Mid Ohio (maybe the hardest of all ICR2 tracks) and out of 4 drivers over 24 hours we had 1 crash. See here http://www.miracing.com/endurance/e24ii/index.html I find GP2 harder. It's a matter of which sim you spend the most time with. GP2 was so bad cpu wise in traffic that I think what you say is even more ludicrous.

> I understand your point. But how do you explain the phenomemom of a Chris > Boll type who can do 1:07 within days of getting this sim? I'll tell you > how -- these guys use arcade racing technques. A blatant show of despair and jealousy on your part. And beleive me, the fast guys have done a lot of laps in the first few days. Some are even beta testers and have been driving GPL for months. I have a best of 1.07.73 after about 12 hours seat time (actually less when you consider watching so many GREAT replays). And what the hell is an arcade racing technique - anything different from your obviously slow technique?

> I undertand your point. It just sims that there is no other way to achieve > a fast lap at Watkins Glen without resorting to driving arcade style. This, > considering that the qualifying lap at this race in 1967 was in the range of > 1:05. And back then they didn't resort to 'arcade style: racing to achieve > those times. Another show of ignorance on your part! This demo is an alpha! It is common knowledge that the final physics model is not even decided by Papy yet and we are also stuck with 1 setup! It may contain greater traction in the full release which would both increase speeds and make the car less slippery. At this point it seems a high to mid 1.06 will be as fast as anyone can go with this demo but no doubt faster times will be possible once we can all set the car up the way we like. Once again, what's this "arcade style" nonsense?

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> > > Edwin do you REALLY think that just because GPL is modeled to drive > the > > > way it does, that this proves how brave they were back then? I can't > believe > > > you are that gullible. The letters t-r-e-e are not the same thing as an > > > actual tree growing in the ground! It only proves Papy can make a sim that > > > uses LOTS of drift. > > So now all the drivers of this era were wimps aye? Because the cars > > back then had outstanding traction and did not drift at all and could > > stop on a dime? I suppose they raced on magnetic tracks back then and > > had 10,000 pounds of downforce at each wheel? And the cars weren't > > really that heavy, they were just trying to trick everyone! > Its plain that any critique of GPL is going to send you into a weird > defensive posture ...you react with extreme examples to even mild mannered > opinions that conflict with your drooling worship this new product. > Whatever, man.

But you seem to believe that these cars should handle even better than modern day F1 cars. Why? If you don't want "drift" then just drive slower. Do you think that if a real driver drove one of these cars the way we are hotlapping in GPL that it would just happily and stabily cruise around the track. How do you think it should be then?

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> <snip> > % > and I takes some of the fun out of the game. I find it interesting that > % > after I spin or run off course when I think I'm going relatively slow > % > and go to the replay, the replay shows me going twice as fast as I > % > thought. > % No visual cues???? It has the best 3D***pit anywhere and you say this? > % You guys are just plain hopeless I'm afraid! This sim gives more > % feedback as to what's going on than any other by a mile! It seems your > % so pitiful that you can't even get yourself thru the process of learning > % the braking points. LOL. Give the man some wings before he kills > % himself! > I have to agree, especially if one is not getting a good fast frame rate > display, the "visual" cues of speed are just flat out missing. The > better the frame rate the better the visual cues for judging one's > speed. We are talking about the 3d tub and the cues given by its > movement, as this reflects what one is doing to the car, but not speed.

I think this is more a matter of being accustomed to F1/CART sims and the speed and handling comparisons between GPL and these types. One of the things I loved about GPL was how far before corners you need to begin braking. As far as this "sense of speed" issue goes, I must say I find it a bit irrelevant. Like all racing sims, it's a matter of learning braking points and just getting used to each different sim you use. Funny thing is, that was one of the major complaints I heard about F1RS ie no sense of speed. Maybe these criticisms came from CPR people. I think perhaps the view in CPR was a little overmagnified anyway. I agree totally with what you say about the proximity of trackside objects. Watkins glen, being a road course rather than a street course, has no close objects, something most will be happy about since they will thus be hitting less things :)

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> I may be wrong, but I think this is due to the fact that in a real > racecar steering becomes harder as speed increases, a fact principally > caused by the inertial forces of rotation of the wheels. And also if > you turn the wheel let's say 15 degrees while you're running slowly > and 15 degrees when you're going fast, your wheels aren't supposed to > turn to the same angle in both cases, they should turn less when > you're going fast because there are huge forces that fight their > movement.

I will take an educated guess and say that the inertia of the car is a far more significant factor than the gyroscopic phenonena you speak of. Well, Papyrus sims already do this. It is implicit in the programming as it should be. If you think about it, an option to alter this is actually not realistic at all since you would be actually changing the physics model in terms of inertia. Tip - adjust linearity to full. Papy sims have the best control feedback bar none!

> I generally try not to take someone else's position. You mean you don't like overtaking? Sounds like about half of the current crop of F1 drivers! ;-) Out of context, yes, but I couldn't help it. Alan

Must admit, that's something I've never wanted to try ;-) Do you ever use the GP1 paddles for their intended purpose? If not, shouldn't it be possible to wire in a switch instead of the pots? I've only used a GP1 a few times and never looked inside so I don't know if this is a realistic option or not. There's two aspects here - assigning controls and then determining how the inputs should be interpolated. GP2 is the best at the latter. Cheers, Richard

>A 1:06 is definitely on. In the pre-alpha, my current best is a >1:06.62 (no replay saved - was in race with AI and the sheer size washed >it away). I have a saved 1:06.82 and its very tidy, indeed. One small >puff of smoke in the last turn and nary a tail-wag in sight. Sounds great <g> Can't wait to be able to get some lessons from you when we're racing online! Not too bad thanks. Things are getting pretty hectic at work with lots of very frustrating contractual issues due to the ***y millennium but I've still been putting in quite a bit of time with N2 on TEN - and now pirouetting all over the place in GPL ;-) How about yourself? Giving up the real thing to become a full time simmer, perhaps? Cheers, Richard

ROFL! But all too true ;-) Personally I do tend to work out the limits in sims by deliberately pushing the car beyond them, but that's only because I'm impatient <g> The real test about all this stuff comes when we'll be racing online with realistic damage. Then it becomes a case of know exactly what your limits are and driving within them. I remember a 15 lap Sear Point race on TEN where I was a long way from being the fastest but won by a whole lap with only one other finisher <vbg> The main difference I've found with GPL compared to the other sims is that the limits really are just that. With the others it's a case of 'oops, a bit hot into that corner - no worries though, just back off the throttle and all I've lost is a tenth or two'. Not so with GPL and a lot of sim 'experts' are going to have to completely redefine their driving approach... Cheers, Richard

You're right on that one, except that both doesn't affect steering the same way. The inertia of the car itself will not stop you from changing the angle of your wheels, but will certainly induce understeer as tires slide away from the direction you are turning in. But then I guess this understeering could also create forces that fight back the wheel's movement. But having driven a motorcycle I can tell you that at high speed the rotational inertia of the wheel cannot be neglected. I'd have to calculate to see what would be the magnitude of the inertial forces, but I'd need some info about the diameter of thye wheels and infos on weight distribution. Again I conceed that I may be wrong, I'm studying chemical engineering, not mechanical... We've had courses about static and dynamic physics though, so I'm not completely ignorant (I hope!). Ok, but it seems wrong... I find that all corrections that I try to make are getting too strong a response from the car... Of course with all the G's missing it's hard to tell, but visually (and that's the only way we can drive at this time - until FF) I can't really feel in total control of my car on a straightaway. I'm almost there, I'll try it to full but I doubt that will come into play when I'm on a straightaway... Thanks for your interesting response. A. Renault

> I may be wrong, but I think this is due to the fact that in a real > racecar steering becomes harder as speed increases, a fact principally > caused by the inertial forces of rotation of the wheels. I would imagine that the self-aligning torques swamp the inertial (gyroscopic) effects, but as always, "it depends". The only difference will be in any compliant components, which are small. 15 degrees of steering deflection at arbitrary speed will produce the same amount of front tire articulation, to within very small differences. However, that 15 degrees of wheel deflection can require dramatically different forces on the wheel to acheive. Which is why good forcefeedback will be a HUGE win. (However, by my definition of "good", it's unlikely to be sold for anything less than four figures USD.) ---Jim

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> >> Yep! I've always thought that GP2's control options have been the > >> benchmark for user configurability. > >Unless you want to switch gears with a joystick axis (TM GP1)! > Must admit, that's something I've never wanted to try ;-) Do you ever use > the GP1 paddles for their intended purpose? If not, shouldn't it be

To me it's REALLY uncomfortable, to accelerate and brake using my hands, comparable to using a flight stick for driving... Why should I? All of the racing sims I'm interested in, allow me to select the pedals for gas/brake (ICR2, N2, F1RS, final GPL?, not CPR, not GP2) I agree completely... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Don't forget that the tires used then where probably more heavy (I think - I'm no expert) so they must create important gyroscopic effects. But if you combine this to the understreer you get at high speed, won't it be noticeable? That's correct. And that's why we need FF... But until then they (sim developpers) have to find another way to resolve this issue. I'd agree though that GPL is a step in the good direction, because of it's incredible physics engine. It doesn't mean it's perfect and cannot be improved. Eheheh... I agree... But I would be able to cope with "less than good" at this time, if I could find any reliable device at a reasonable price. Thanks Jim for your interesting comments. A. Renault

I think it has to do with the fact that they are running with stiff suspensions and a very direct steering. This transfers every bump and irregularity on the track back to the driver's hands making them look very busy. But in fact, the drivers are trying to keep the wheel steady. Remember, smoothness = speed! Lawrence Lo

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> I've always wondered why the drivers hands are always > moving fast back and forth in those modern day > in-the-cockpit shots. Certainly a modern F1 or > whatever-they-call-them-now cars can't be that > hard to drive. ;) > - Matt

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>> I generally try not to take someone else's position. >You mean you don't like overtaking? >Sounds like about half of the current crop of F1 drivers! ;-) >Out of context, yes, but I couldn't help it. >Alan

Ouch..... I walked into that one! Good One!

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>> Tip - adjust linearity to full. Papy sims have the best control >>feedback bar none! >I'm almost there, I'll try it to full but I doubt that will come into >play when I'm on a straightaway... >Thanks for your interesting response.

Well now I'm quoting myself... It doesn't get any better... I've tried setting linearity to full and what I experienced was worst than what it was before in terms of being everywhere on the track on straightaways... Just like I expected quite frankly. When you move this slider to the left, you decrease sensibility at the right and left extremities of your controller's movement, but you increase it near it's center position, and that's just what I was complaining about, the car being too nervous when you're driving in a straight line. I could increase non-linearity but then the problems move to the corners instead of straights, so anyway I'm going to have trouble with this option. I'd be one happy man if they'd include a "reduce with speed" style of slider... Maybe it can still happen, I hope so... And if it's there and you don't want to use it then you'll only have to set it to zero, that's all... A. Renault

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> >> Tip - adjust linearity to full. Papy sims have the best control > >>feedback bar none! > >I'm almost there, I'll try it to full but I doubt that will come into > >play when I'm on a straightaway... > >Thanks for your interesting response. > Well now I'm quoting myself... It doesn't get any better... > I've tried setting linearity to full and what I experienced was worst > than what it was before in terms of being everywhere on the track on > straightaways... Just like I expected quite frankly. > When you move this slider to the left, you decrease sensibility at the > right and left extremities of your controller's movement, but you > increase it near it's center position, and that's just what I was > complaining about, the car being too nervous when you're driving in a > straight line. I could increase non-linearity but then the problems > move to the corners instead of straights, so anyway I'm going to have > trouble with this option. > I'd be one happy man if they'd include a "reduce with speed" style of > slider... Maybe it can still happen, I hope so... And if it's there > and you don't want to use it then you'll only have to set it to zero, > that's all... > A. Renault

I understand everybody who runs jjoysticks or keyboards, they should have an option too. But as far as I am concerned, I race at full sensitivity, have done so at all sims including Gp2. Gp2 was pretty decent, N2 was good, but GPL is very good. The steering is sensitive, yet you can make quick corrections while in a turn without going off.As for dancing on the straights, you would to that in a real racecar too if you had a servo from a Ford Econoline or something:) Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

> Which is why good forcefeedback will be a HUGE win. (However, by my > definition of "good", it's unlikely to be sold for anything less than > four figures USD.) > ---Jim Hi Jim, read this and had to comment, this is EXACTLY correct, people seem to have the misconception that FF in its present incarnation is worth having which you and I both know is not so :(! When and IF FF is ever developed to where it becomes of value as anything beyond "arcade game tricks" it is going to be expensive to implement. Sure we'll see a bunch of plastic toy wheels claiming to have FF but I'll bet if you had a look at the motors, etc you'd get a good laugh. Thomas Enterprises will do FF someday maybe but if we do its going to be done to the same quality standards as the rest of our product and as you say, it will be well into the 4 figure range. Trev

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 13:28:25 +0200, Matthew Knutsen

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>I understand everybody who runs jjoysticks or keyboards, they should >have an option too. But as far as I am concerned, I race at full >sensitivity, have done so at all sims including Gp2. Gp2 was pretty >decent, N2 was good, but GPL is very good. The steering is sensitive, >yet you can make quick corrections while in a turn without going off.As >for dancing on the straights, you would to that in a real racecar too if >you had a servo from a Ford Econoline or something:)

Eheh... Good one! ;o) I'll agree with you that sensitivity at full helps me a lot trough the turns, but it's quite a handful on the straights... For now I'm alone on the track so there's no problem, but when I'll be trying a pass in between two AI cars I want to feel as much in control as possible, so then it's gonna be a real pain in the a$$. Maybe it's gonna be easier in the full release though, so I'm not panicking. But I'm sure trying to make as much noise as I can about this issue, so it'll maybe get to someone's ears (eyes) at Papy... eheh! A. Renault

>> Which is why good forcefeedback will be a HUGE win. (However, by my >> definition of "good", it's unlikely to be sold for anything less than >> four figures USD.) >When and IF FF is ever developed to where it becomes of value as >anything beyond "arcade game tricks" it is going to be expensive to >implement. Trevor, The problem here is that even if the FF wheel that will appear on the market in the next year are very basic and don't show how a real wheel in a real-life car would react upon this situation. But I'm sure I will buy one of those. Knowing that they don't offer the best FF on the market. Because at least it's better to have "little" FF than none. That's why I think FF wheels under 300$ will have incredible sales. Maybe someday the good FF wheels will I hope get under the critic 500$ market (the limit so that everybody could buy it IMHO, demand/offer). But while waiting, I will support FF by buying one of those wheels, to at least get a little more experience of reality than my normal T2 wheel (soon to be a TSW2, just need to see my next AF schedule and pay check). Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

> I'm not taking anything personal! It seems many of you are comparing > GPL to CART/F1 cars which is just nonsense. In GPL you have NO > downforce, grooved hard compound tyres and twice the body weight. Why > would you expect magnatraction? There are real race drivers here who say > the physics model is very impressive indeed. Have a read and have a > think about it. Hi Byron I`ve seen this several times now and have to ask, twice the body weight ? Where did that came from, it says on the info screen that all these cars weigh under 1200 lbs, which I find to be more or less in line with my own knowledge (limited) of this era, these were very small cars after all. Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN PS I "do" agree with you though :-)

> The steering is sensitive, yet you can make quick corrections while > in a turn without going off.As for dancing on the straights, you > would to that in a real racecar too if you had a servo from a Ford ^^^^ ^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ "Real" racecars don't have servos! NASCAR stockers do... :-) ---Jim "still a huge fan of WWF^H^H^HNASCAR" Sokoloff

They have. Sahara Speedworld in Las Vegas. :o) And it's pretty damn realistic (speaking from much experience). I'm sure someday someone is going to market a driving console complete with chair that will make you sick and dizzy just to take a couple of laps at Bristol. All they will need to do is incorporate the virtual reality helmet into the whole thing and we'll have people dying of heart attacks as the wall out of turn four at Phoenix comes at them at 180+ mph. "Oh .. this is gonna hurt! ... DID YOU SEE THAT GUY?!?!" Dave http://www.geocities.com/sunsetstrip/4340

Agreed, - Matt (GPL must have lot of bumps modeled... no wonder I keep spinning off! :):)

> But then I guess this understeering could also create forces that > fight back the wheel's movement. But having driven a motorcycle I can > tell you that at high speed the rotational inertia of the wheel cannot > be neglected. When a motorcycle leans right, the rotational inertia of the wheel (pointing to the left) is rotated up more toward vertical. This results in a precession torque about the steering axis. (Big omega cross little omega and all that stuff ;) Cars get this too. For example when the wheel bounces after a bump the camber will change with the suspension motion. This camber change (change of the rotational inertia vector) would require a steering torque to oppose the gyro torque. The wheel rotational inertia, the torque to cause/oppose the gyro precession and the precession are all at right angles to each other. So leaning (cambering? ;) the spinning tire is what causes gyro torques about the steering axis. - Matt

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> Well now I'm quoting myself... It doesn't get any better... > I've tried setting linearity to full and what I experienced was worst > than what it was before in terms of being everywhere on the track on > straightaways... Just like I expected quite frankly. > When you move this slider to the left, you decrease sensibility at the > right and left extremities of your controller's movement, but you > increase it near it's center position, and that's just what I was > complaining about, the car being too nervous when you're driving in a > straight line. I could increase non-linearity but then the problems > move to the corners instead of straights, so anyway I'm going to have > trouble with this option. > I'd be one happy man if they'd include a "reduce with speed" style of > slider... Maybe it can still happen, I hope so... And if it's there > and you don't want to use it then you'll only have to set it to zero, > that's all...

What I meant was to move the slider all the way to the right. Another thing that many find difficult about Papy sims is the excellent modelling of body roll/weight transfer. Believe me, when you get used to it there is simply nothing better and going back to most other sims will feel arcadish and dead in comparison. I have been racing ICR2 for many months now and so that's why the step to GPL was easy for me. The big improvement from ICR2 to GPL is the brake and spin modelling which was almost non existant in ICR2.

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> > For those who need more realism, try an experiment: > ROFL! But all too true ;-) > Personally I do tend to work out the limits in sims by deliberately > pushing the car beyond them, but that's only because I'm impatient <g> > The real test about all this stuff comes when we'll be racing online with > realistic damage. Then it becomes a case of know exactly what your limits > are and driving within them. I remember a 15 lap Sear Point race on TEN > where I was a long way from being the fastest but won by a whole lap with > only one other finisher <vbg> > The main difference I've found with GPL compared to the other sims is > that the limits really are just that. With the others it's a case of > 'oops, a bit hot into that corner - no worries though, just back off the > throttle and all I've lost is a tenth or two'. Not so with GPL and a lot > of sim 'experts' are going to have to completely redefine their driving > approach...

Yeah, especially the way the demo is setup you would think so. Even VERY gentle touching of the brakes in a corner is a big NO NO (or even just lifting off) but i'd guess the final version with adjustable setups will cure this a little at least.

On Tue, 14 Apr 1998 18:43:05 -0700, "Matthew V. Jessick" >When a motorcycle leans right, the rotational inertia >of the wheel (pointing to the left) is rotated up >more toward vertical. This results in a precession torque >about the steering axis. (Big omega cross little omega >and all that stuff ;) Well... erm... That's just what I was saying! ;o) A. Renault

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> > Which is why good forcefeedback will be a HUGE win. (However, by my > > definition of "good", it's unlikely to be sold for anything less than > > four figures USD.) > Hi Jim, read this and had to comment, this is EXACTLY correct, people > seem to have the misconception that FF in its present incarnation is > worth having which you and I both know is not so :(! > When and IF FF is ever developed to where it becomes of value as > anything beyond "arcade game tricks" it is going to be expensive to > implement.

I think I stuck my nose in the last time there was a discussion of good force feedback here... I'd hope that you don't include the original Hard Drivin' and Race Drivin' in the "arcade tricks" category. Those games had a pretty darn good car model and good big motors behind the ff wheel. Some of them suffered from a cheap switching power amp driving the motor (a little bit of force-noise), but other than that I'm still impressed when I play my Race Drivin'. Note that we couldn't make the force levels correct for real race cars -- little kids use the arcades and it's not a good idea to break the customer's arms when the car spins out... To see what you can do with ff if you spend some money, come try our Silicon Motor Speedway (1st site in Mall of America, next one in the Chicago area in a month or so). More info on: www.lbet.com -- Doug Milliken

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> > I'm not taking anything personal! It seems many of you are comparing > > GPL to CART/F1 cars which is just nonsense. In GPL you have NO > > downforce, grooved hard compound tyres and twice the body weight. Why > > would you expect magnatraction? There are real race drivers here who say > > the physics model is very impressive indeed. Have a read and have a > > think about it. > Hi Byron > I`ve seen this several times now and have to ask, twice the body weight > ? > Where did that came from, it says on the info screen that all these cars > weigh under 1200 lbs, which I find to be more or less in line with my > own knowledge (limited) of this era, these were very small cars after > all. > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy > UncleGoy on TEN > PS I "do" agree with you though :-)

Good point! So much for assumption :) It seems these things were more high tech in the weight savings dept than I assumed. I was assuming that most of the frame, engine, etc would have been steel but they obviously has some good alloys at this point. It's not really all that long ago come to think of it. I also just jumped to the conclusion that all the carbon fibre, etc on the modern cars would make them approximately half the weight. But as you point out, these are small cars. Now you may know this Goy - I think I read or heard somewhere recently that todays F1 cars weigh in at 600kg (approx 1300lb) with a full fuel load and driver. I noticed in the GPL teams screen that the cars were around 1100lb (Start Line Weight). I just wonder what "Start Line weight" is exactly. In any case, it seems the weights will be about the same and the 67 cars may actually be lighter! Silly me :)) Once again, come to think of it, I think I came to this false conclusion after driving GPL because the cars certainly seem to weigh twice as much after all the other F1/CART sims :))

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> If you don't want "drift" then just drive > > slower. > Thanks for the advice. I dont consider what happens in the demo > 'drift' The fact that the driving model is TOO loose makes it closer > to powersliding ala a rally car. But this isn't a BLACK\WHITE > opinion, as I already told you. Papy went TOO far with their good > intentions ...from watching 'The Movie' and Speedvision till I'm > blue in the face, I'd say the demo drives about 20 per cent too > loose. Now I didn't use a slide-rule to calculate that number, but > only to tell you my opinion of how far outta' whack I think the > model is.

Ever even consider the possibility that the drivers that you are attempting to emulate are at least 20% "better drivers" than you are? With more practice, and better immersion and physical feedback? :-) ---Jim

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> snip touchy responses > How do you think it should be then? > How do I think it should be then? Well if the driving model were > 'tightened-up' by mabey 20 per cent, I think it would add more realism > and not subtract from it. The demo is a welcome change of pace from the > many modern F1 games that are out, and that are due out. I like the idea > alot! The ability to make setups in the final version will for sure > help GPL in the area I think it could use help, so thats nice to know and > to look forward to. But for now I'm sticking to my guns that the demo > driving model is too loose, even for the era it portrays.

Something else comes to mind here. In the demo the tyres are always at optimum temperature so I think that would account for excessive oversteer since it has been my experience that front tyres normally run cooler than the rears. This fact alone is not giving a clear picture of the physics model. Other things we do not know are tyre pressures (possibly to high), suspension settings, etc. But you may be right. Also, another thing that is possible is that the drivers you see in this movie are in race mode and being conservative and being as good as they are, make it look easy too.

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> > > I'm not taking anything personal! It seems many of you are > comparing > > > GPL to CART/F1 cars which is just nonsense. In GPL you have NO > > > downforce, grooved hard compound tyres and twice the body weight. > Why > > > would you expect magnatraction? There are real race drivers here > who say > > > the physics model is very impressive indeed. Have a read and have > a > > > think about it. > > Hi Byron > > I`ve seen this several times now and have to ask, twice the body > weight > > ? > > Where did that came from, it says on the info screen that all these > cars > > weigh under 1200 lbs, which I find to be more or less in line with > my > > own knowledge (limited) of this era, these were very small cars > after > > all. > > Beers and cheers > > (uncle) Goy > > UncleGoy on TEN > > PS I "do" agree with you though :-) > Good point! So much for assumption :) It seems these things were > more > high tech in the weight savings dept than I assumed. I was assuming > that > most of the frame, engine, etc would have been steel but they > obviously > has some good alloys at this point.

They were aluminium monocoque chassis, and the alloys were ok, but the reason they were so light, was that there was absolutely no concern for safety. Those cars were killer rockets....The Loti, or at least one of them, retired from the '67 Glen GP with broken engine mounts, the new Ford/cosworth engine was a real jump up that year. The min limit is 500, and that's where you'll find them:) Start line weight is exactly what is says:) Hehe, yup, great fun IMO. So are the others. It's getting pretty scary good, methinks:)) See you online when GPL comes out!:) Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

Actually both cars suffered badly at that race - Jimmy Clark had rear suspension failure and Graham Hill had a knackered gear box. But they didn't retire: Clark won with Hill second! Cheers, Richard

> Start line weight is exactly what is says:) So full fuel load and driver included then? Dunno how this would include driver since in the GPL game they give weights to the nearest 5lb.

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> Hi Byron. I liked what you said about the drivers being in a race-mode > and therefore driving more conservative, thats a very good point that slipped > my mind. ...you know, the driver Bandini(I think thats how its spelled) died > in the Monaco GP in 67'. He burned to death. And I don't mean he died of smoke > inhalation ..he 'burned' to death. Its really horrible. 'those daring young > men in their driving machines'. My biggest problem is getting the demo to run > without stuttering ..and not, being burned alive. It certainly puts things > into perspective. Mark.

Stuttering? Bad frame rate?

> > Start line weight is exactly what is says:) > So full fuel load and driver included then? Dunno how this would > include driver since in the GPL game they give weights to the nearest > 5lb. Well, that (if I have understood this correctly) is the minimum weight allowed, or, just to add to the confusion, the minimum weight of the running car/driver at any time during a race weekend. If it was a weight quote on the car only, I am a bit puzzled too - :)) Matt

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> Good point! So much for assumption :) It seems these things were more > high tech in the weight savings dept than I assumed. I was assuming that > most of the frame, engine, etc would have been steel but they obviously > has some good alloys at this point. It's not really all that long ago > come to think of it. I also just jumped to the conclusion that all the > carbon fibre, etc on the modern cars would make them approximately half > the weight. But as you point out, these are small cars. Now you may know > this Goy - I think I read or heard somewhere recently that todays F1 > cars weigh in at 600kg (approx 1300lb) with a full fuel load and driver. > I noticed in the GPL teams screen that the cars were around 1100lb > (Start Line Weight). I just wonder what "Start Line weight" is exactly. > In any case, it seems the weights will be about the same and the 67 cars > may actually be lighter! Silly me :))

Good question, no good answer from me though... Papy has always made the car feel as it has weight (although I like GP2 better than all of them, except this), as opposed to many others, and GPL even more so. This is what I enjoy the most about this sim, the car weighs something when I drive it and just as with my road car it has more power than grip, wich means that you can control it with the throttle, just as you would in any high-powered car with "decent" handling (not talking grip here, just balance). I have this long sweeping left-hander on my way to work, totallt visible all the way and separted from oncoming traffic with armco, I go in at about 75mph on neutral throttle and then apply power until my steering wheel is almost straightend, I have about 95 to 100 mph at the end of this corner if I get it right (the armco on both sides intimidates me from exploring much further though :-), great feeling, just as in GPL Beers and cheers (uncle Goy UncleGoy on TEN

> I have this long sweeping left-hander on my way to work, totallt visible > all the way and separted from oncoming traffic with armco, I go in at > about 75mph on neutral throttle and then apply power until my steering > wheel is almost straightend, I have about 95 to 100 mph at the end of > this corner if I get it right (the armco on both sides intimidates me > from exploring much further though :-), great feeling, just as in GPL LOL. There will be no doubt as to what has happened to you should you fail to post here for a couple of months. In this event, be sure I'll take up a collection for your loved ones :)

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> > I have this long sweeping left-hander on my way to work, totallt visible > > all the way and separted from oncoming traffic with armco, I go in at > > about 75mph on neutral throttle and then apply power until my steering > > wheel is almost straightend, I have about 95 to 100 mph at the end of > > this corner if I get it right (the armco on both sides intimidates me > > from exploring much further though :-), great feeling, just as in GPL > LOL. There will be no doubt as to what has happened to you should you > fail to post here for a couple of months. In this event, be sure I'll > take up a collection for your loved ones :)

Why, thank you, and btw, don`t try this at home kids :-D Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN