GPL Demo - More Criticisms

1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it seems to be acquaplaning. This is a major problem with all Papyrus sims. I've been racing Indycar2 on and off for two years now and have never accquired a feel for driving it. Same goes for GPL, one really has to concentrate too *** the steering inputs. Furthermore, the braking inputs just do not seem to be right either just as in Indycar2/Nascar2. Papyrus should take a page out of Microprose's GP2 book on how to model steering and brake inputs.

I know I'm going against the tide here but until a REAL race car driver tells me the grip levels on this sim are accurate, I'll have some doubts. I can do sub 1'10" laps (so I'm not criticizing out of frustration), and it didn't take me all that long to be able to do this, but it requires me to slide the rear end of the car almost all of the way through turns 1,2,and 3. How can this be real? Has everyone looked at their replays from the TV view and noticed how long a distance the car is actually sliding? Whether it's a car modeled from 1967 or 1998, I doubt I'm supposed to have to drive it SO delicately. One other thing, the reasons I've heard that Papyrus isn't putting weather in the sim seem kind of lame. They say that since they can't do it the exactly the way they want to yet, it won't be in. I'm assuming they did the best they could in all areas of this sim, why not simply take the same approach with weather. Just do the best they can. I have a very strong suspicion that someone like Alex Zanardi would laugh at the detailed explanations given here on r.a.s. to defend Papayrus's decision. Dave

Maybe you are steering "too much"? GPL physics are entirely "different" than its older cousins. ROLFMAO. You can NOT compare the two. GP2 is decipting the "90's F1 era" and GPL in the " 60's". Sorry to be blunt.. but can you drive it? take care ------------------------------------------------------------------ Hungry for NEWSGROUPS??? USE feedME.ORG Read and Post to 30,000 groups through feedME.ORG FREE FREE FREE http://www.feedME.ORG FREE FREE FREE ------------------------------------------------------------------

snip > Papyrus should take a page out of Microprose's GP2 book on how to model > steering and brake inputs. Sorry, but compared to GPL's physics, GP2 suddenly feels like an arcade racer... Just thinking about a CART sim using this engine makes me shiver... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

Hi David, See the excellent post from John Wallace about this matter in the GPL demo vs. F1RS, from a devout (etc.etc.) thread Cheers! Remco

I did and while it all makes sense, it still doesn't explain why they didn't choose to do their best and try. Read my response to Bruce Kennewell in this thread. Dave

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>Hi David, >See the excellent post from John Wallace about this matter in the GPL >demo vs. F1RS, from a devout (etc.etc.) thread >Cheers! >Remco

Dear oh deary me! Are these comments for real or are they left over from April 1st.? > 1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it > seems to be acquaplaning. When one of these things was travelling at 150 - 175 mph the effort required to keep them under control was significant. You cannot relate the handling of these 30-year old cars to the ultra downforce things used today.It is said that a modern F1 car generates so much downforce that it is capable of being driven upside-down....it would "stick to the roof", in other words. A F1 car from 1967 would fall flat on its back and kill the driver. Welcome to reality, my friend. WHAT?!!!!!!!Yeah.....sure thing. -- Bruce. (At home)

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> 1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it > seems to be acquaplaning. This is a major problem with all Papyrus sims. > I've been racing Indycar2 on and off for two years now and have never > accquired a feel for driving it. Same goes for GPL, one really has to > concentrate too *** the steering inputs. Furthermore, the braking > inputs just do not seem to be right either just as in Indycar2/Nascar2. > Papyrus should take a page out of Microprose's GP2 book on how to model > steering and brake inputs.

I hear this driving on ice stuff a lot. I think it is more a matter of the way Papy do the trye screaching sounds in their sims ie when the tyres begin making sounds. Maybe the way they do it now is premature but OTOH maybe we would have less feedback as to what the car was doing otherwise.

Thinking about a Can-Am or Prototype sports cars of the 60s sim does the same for me! > Just thinking about a CART sim using this engine makes me shiver...-- Bruce. (At home)

Interesting comments, David....... > I know I'm going against the tide here but until a REAL race car driver Well, I have driven open-wheelers 30 years ago.I can assure you that the grip levels back then bear no resmblance to the grip levels being achieved by virtually *any* form of modern racing car.....with the singular exception of those formulae where aerodynamic devices/design are outlawed and where radial tyres are mandatory. Possibly the closest replication today is to be found in formulae such as Formula Vee, Formula Ford and, of course, Historical....where the 30-year old cars are still raced. The dynamics are very well modelled.Let me give you an example by saying that if you took your road car, fited it with cross-ply tyres and attempted to drive it around Watkins Glen at ten-tenths, you would then experience something similar to what these guys were going through 30 years ago. Grab some historical videos that include some external shots of these cars driving through high-speed sweeping corners. They four-wheel drift every time. That was the fastest way through the sweeper; anything less resulted in a slower lap time. If, as you say, you find that you have to drive in the DRY in such a delicate manner, how on eath do you think you would cope in the wet?There were no rain tyres. These grooved tyres were used in all conditions. Having now tried the demo I can understand why Papyrus have not included any ad hoc "rain" effects and, to be perfectly honest, I won't miss that effect one little bit. Is Alex your consultant or something? --- Bruce. (At home)

Nice to hear a reply fom someone who really did race cars in '67. I like GPL because of it's time setting. Must be a blast for you. I know the grip levels between then and now are vastly different but the drifts just seem to last too long. Hopefully I'll get to see some old videos of the races at Watkin's Glen to see how they compare to this sim. Now here's where I offend some people. :-) I mention Alex Zanardi in my original post and I mentioned Greg Moore in a response to John Wallace's earlier posting defending Papyrus's decision to not include weather with GPL. The reason I mention these pro drivers is this. What we all talk about on r.a.s. and enjoy so much may be called sims, but they are still games. Sorry, it's true. I'm as serious about sims as all of you, and I do some beta testing and take that seriously too, but I don't kid myself. When I can sit down at GPL, which most are gushing about it's realism and accuracy, and are using to criticize other sims, and on my eighth lap be able to do a 1'20" and then within a few hours be able to do a sub 1'10', this isn't realistic by any stretch of the imagination. There is NO WAY in hell I'd be able to get in a real '67 GP Lotus at that track and get anywhere near those times. Either will anyone else here at r.a.s. Sims are still games even at their best. That's why I think someone like Greg Moore would smile and say to go ahead and put weather in and stop trying to believe that this sim is so realistic that it's impossible to include weather at this time. It's NOT. It is possible to over analyze and complicate matters and it's happening with this issue. There's two reasons why I defend CPR (and other sims) on r.a.s when someone unfairly rips into them. First, I think the car physics feel more realistic than any other sim I've tried, including GPL. My learning curve with GPL was actually quicker than CPR. F1 was the easiest of all. In CPR, even though I can hang in with all but the very best drivers (Sandman is one I can't/never will beat), I still would not say that I have mastered the sim even after 5 1/2 months. Second, a group of people work on these sims for months and months and then someone just calls it trash, because it, or parts of it are not real enough for them. NONE of these sims are real. If anyone thinks they can drive a real F1, CART, or 67 Lotus based on what they do in a sim then they have real dillusions of grandeur. I get a laugh at some of the postings I read here. I'd like to see full weather, not just rain, in GPL because it adds elements like vision impairment from sun glare and water spray, shortened viewing distance with fog, grip level changes, and temperature changes which should effect speed. Also, visually, the sim would just plain look better and give a more realistic feeling of being outdoors and not in front of my computer. F1 does this very well and in a racing game coming soon from MS, the weather effects are stunning. >Having now tried the demo I can understand why Papyrus have not included any ad The real drivers did have to race in the rain, right? If you think it would be almost impossible to drive in the rain in GPL and you wouldn't want to even bother based on what we've seen so far, then aren't the grip levels in dry conditions too loose? Weather adds a lot to a sim IMO. Dave (DmndDave)

Wait till you've had the opportunity to tweak the setups, as the default setups in the demo aren't anything to write home about... -- Eric T. Busch

> Wait till you've had the opportunity to tweak the setups, as the default > setups in the demo aren't anything to write home about... Great point. I suspect too much rear brake bias in the demo. Hope I'm right :)) I also hear the final physics tweaking is yet to be done anyway.

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> Nice to hear a reply fom someone who really did race cars in '67. I like GPL > because of it's time setting. Must be a blast for you. > I know the grip levels between then and now are vastly different but the > drifts just seem to last too long. Hopefully I'll get to see some old videos > of the races at Watkin's Glen to see how they compare to this sim. > Now here's where I offend some people. :-) I mention Alex Zanardi in my > original post and I mentioned Greg Moore in a response to John Wallace's > earlier posting defending Papyrus's decision to not include weather with > GPL. The reason I mention these pro drivers is this. What we all talk about > on r.a.s. and enjoy so much may be called sims, but they are still games. > Sorry, it's true. I'm as serious about sims as all of you, and I do some > beta testing and take that seriously too, but I don't kid myself. When I can > sit down at GPL, which most are gushing about it's realism and accuracy, and > are using to criticize other sims, and on my eighth lap be able to do a > 1'20" and then within a few hours be able to do a sub 1'10', this isn't > realistic by any stretch of the imagination. There is NO WAY in hell I'd be > able to get in a real '67 GP Lotus at that track and get anywhere near those > times. Either will anyone else here at r.a.s. Sims are still games even at > their best. That's why I think someone like Greg Moore would smile and say > to go ahead and put weather in and stop trying to believe that this sim is > so realistic that it's impossible to include weather at this time. It's NOT. > It is possible to over analyze and complicate matters and it's happening > with this issue.

I totally disagree and think you underestimate the developed over years talent of the best sim drivers. If we could get into a Lotus and hit walls and then just hit Shift-R and continue I'm sure we'd be up to speed in no time. But of course we cannot and so the whole comparison is invalid. It makes me angry to see someone who is a participant in sim racing put their own sport down and I don't know how you let yourself go off in these directions. There really is no comparison between sim racing and real racing when you get right down to it and anyone worth talking to knows it. But why go off on this self mutilating tangent? Maybe you cannot perfect CPR because it does not steer properly and is so unfinished who knows what else is wrong with it. Putting CPR in the same class as GPL is once again invalid and GPL is still only an alpha. You admit to having no clue about driving real cars yet seem to insist GPL is too easy on the one hand and yet to slippery on the other? If it's so easy then lets see you beat Chris Boll's 1.07.22! Hate to tell ya Dave but mere sub 1.10s are not fast! Well one thing I always notice about Papy sims is that they are always made to work well on todays computers. If weather inclusion meant skimping on the physics then stuff the weather. Just think of it as being a very good season weather wise :)))

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> Nice to hear a reply fom someone who really did race cars in '67. I > like GPL > because of it's time setting. Must be a blast for you. > I know the grip levels between then and now are vastly different but > the > drifts just seem to last too long. Hopefully I'll get to see some old > videos > of the races at Watkin's Glen to see how they compare to this sim.

Interesting points, I have seen pics, and the 4-wheel drifts are for real. IMO, it feels just like driving a powerfulFormula Ford, like Bruce K mentioned. Yes, I have driven Formula Fords:) Yes, but you would not manage out of *fear*. That is the total difference, if you used the same approach asyou did in the sim, you would have died & G T H plentyful, right? Also, you would be surprised at how many earthlings actually can make a race car go pretty fast around a track after a bit of practice, coaching and a few over-the-limit episodes:) Greg would probably not care. It is so unthinkable for us to imagine what he is experiencing, you are quite right, I wouldlike to see weather too, but only if it could be done in a proper way. Hmm. I was a tad dissapointed with CPR for the following reasons;1) It doesn't run well on my PC (200MMX, 64 megs, 6 MB 3dFX) 2) Absolutely no "feel in my T2", and the car understeers way too much. 3) Too easy (to do a 51s lap at LB at least:))) 4) It looks like they have not done their research properly. the front wheels have suspension travel of a Baja Bug, and it looks really idiotic.(From in-car) They even do a burnout when you rev the car in neutral! However, I also enjoy it a lot, but I cannot defend it because I like it. It has a lot of bugs:( I wonder how much CPU power would be needed to simulate this. In rain there are so many factors,you have puddles by kerbs, and in other places, water running across the track at several places, etc. It would be great if somebody actually managed to model this. Right. I know PAPY has done a lot of research. Their physics engine is pretty accurate, I am sure there is Slip Angles, tyre friction coeficcients etc calculated in there. As a "realtime" racer, I am impressed. Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

> Wait till you've had the opportunity to tweak the setups, as the default > setups in the demo aren't anything to write home about... Hi, Eric! Are you able to forward one important request for GPL? In contrast to N2/ICR2 I cannot use a joystick axis for shifting gears in the GPL demo. It's a demo, but mentioning it early can't hurt... l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

As others have pointed out, in a real car you'd be rather more concerned for your safety. And it's always possibly you're pretty good at this kind of thing! I've spent hours on GPL now and I've only managed a few sub 1:13 laps. Andrew

You aren't the first person to express this desire. Papy knows about it, but I can't say what if anything will come of it... -- Eric T. Busch >Are you able to forward one important request for GPL? >In contrast to N2/ICR2 I cannot use a joystick axis for shifting >gears in the GPL demo. It's a demo, but mentioning it early can't >hurt...

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> You aren't the first person to express this desire. Papy knows about > it, but I can't say what if anything will come of it... > -- > Eric T. Busch > >Are you able to forward one important request for GPL? > >In contrast to N2/ICR2 I cannot use a joystick axis for shifting > >gears in the GPL demo. It's a demo, but mentioning it early can't > >hurt...

At least they know, that's all I need... ;^) l8er ronny -- How to get rid of censorship in German game releases <http://www.gamesmania.com/german/maniac/freedom/freedom.htm> |\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather, ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep. |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car, '---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!

On Fri, 10 Apr 1998 13:06:54 -0400, "David G Fisher"

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>I know I'm going against the tide here but until a REAL race car driver >tells me the grip levels on this sim are accurate, I'll have some doubts. I >can do sub 1'10" laps (so I'm not criticizing out of frustration), and it >didn't take me all that long to be able to do this, but it requires me to >slide the rear end of the car almost all of the way through turns 1,2,and 3. >How can this be real? Has everyone looked at their replays from the TV view >and noticed how long a distance the car is actually sliding? Whether it's a >car modeled from 1967 or 1998, I doubt I'm supposed to have to drive it SO >delicately.

I'm running low 1:08s and the rear is NOT sliding around. You get very slight squeal from the tires through T1 and the esses, and that is how you keep it - just at the edge of traction. Your two seconds are being lost through*** the tail out and losing rear traction, hence slower acceleration. Okay, one more time :-) Doing the best you can in all areas is all very well, but the more areas you have in which to do the best you can, the less well you can do in each of them. Sure you can put in as much as you can, but when you cram in too much you end up with..., well, CPR. Look at the weather in CPR - rain tyres fater than slicks, no difference in braking points or traction, no aquaplaning, no spray - all in all a total waste of time. It would be better to not bother with that and to put those man hours toward doing the AI properly. As with all things, the supply will delivery what the market wants, and you can be sure that if enough people want wet weather then it will be delivered in future Papyrus products, but I have the feeling that it will be taken on by Papyrus as a big project to be done properly, not given to the art department to whack on some 3dFX rain effects. Sorry if that's lame, but it's also perfectly reasonable to say nothing of sensible project management and business sense. Cheers! John

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 00:13:03 -0400, "David G Fisher"

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>Now here's where I offend some people. :-) I mention Alex Zanardi in my >original post and I mentioned Greg Moore in a response to John Wallace's >earlier posting defending Papyrus's decision to not include weather with >GPL. The reason I mention these pro drivers is this. What we all talk about >on r.a.s. and enjoy so much may be called sims, but they are still games. >Sorry, it's true. I'm as serious about sims as all of you, and I do some >beta testing and take that seriously too, but I don't kid myself. When I can >sit down at GPL, which most are gushing about it's realism and accuracy, and >are using to criticize other sims, and on my eighth lap be able to do a >1'20" and then within a few hours be able to do a sub 1'10', this isn't >realistic by any stretch of the imagination. There is NO WAY in hell I'd be >able to get in a real '67 GP Lotus at that track and get anywhere near those >times. Either will anyone else here at r.a.s. Sims are still games even at >their best. That's why I think someone like Greg Moore would smile and say >to go ahead and put weather in and stop trying to believe that this sim is >so realistic that it's impossible to include weather at this time. It's NOT. >It is possible to over analyze and complicate matters and it's happening >with this issue.

It's also possible to oversimplify, and the sort of rain you would get would be oversimplified IMO. Of course some would be happy with that, but I have always thought of the sort of rain we see in CPR as being a waste of time. The rain in F1RS was done reasonably well, so that would be a minimum to aim for - if that can't be attained within the allowed development time then better not to bother. I'm not sure if you're trying to be controversial by labelling GPL a "game", and this has been done to death here already. Whatever your reason, it's pointless to look at GPL as being "too easy". Okay, you, I and 99% of other sim fans could never hope to do a 1:10 in a Lotus-49, but what would be the point of releasing a product that served only to reveal the shortcomings of the people using it? It wouldn't exactly be a top seller now would it? Simulate as much as you can, sure, but it also needs to serve the basic function of being possible for mere mortals to drive and being fun - a GP car designer doesn't give a hoot about that, just make it as fast as possible. A _real_ sim that you could complete about one lap in a hundred wouldn't be too popular I think. I've been racing cars in several formulae starting from when I was 10 years old, and anyone who thinks CPR is a better representation of the way a car handles than GPL is either deluding themselves or is from a dimension operating to different laws of physics. Honestly, it is that clear cut. I could list of endless examples, but I'd rather not spend any more time on CPR, not to mention the fact that it's been discussed ad nauseam already. Wow, and now you're giving everyone else a chance to get a laugh at your posting? Thanks! :-) To paraphrase Orwell, none of these sims are real, but some are more real than others. GPL is Napoleon - I'll leave you to work out who CPR represents. As for learning curve - people are doing 1:07s and you're 3 seconds behind. Looks like you're a fair way short of mastering GPL. Well, that's one step forward. Perhaps in the one after that the weather will actually begin to affect the way the car handles rather than just looking different. Cheers! John

Doug, Doug, he's slagging off your setup! :-) Cheers! John

>There really is no comparison between sim >racing and real racing when you get right down to it and anyone worth >talking to knows it. But why go off on this self mutilating tangent? That's my point, there is no comparison between sim racing and real racing. Sims are still, basically games. I have driven motocross motorcycles (not cars) and so I can compare sims to the reality of a real engine powered machine. No sim will ever teach or prepare you for driving a motorcycle, and the same is for a car. It's not about having no clue, it's about never ACTUALLY driven an F1, Champ, or '67 Lotus. I didn't say GPL was too easy, just that it isn't much different from any other sim. And I "asked" if GPL was too slippery in my original post, not insisted. I'm sure Chris is an excellent sim driver, but how many hours has he put into GPL? I've had about 3 1/2 total and I'm down to a 1'08".55. Not bad I think. All the sims are basically the same, you get the feel, memorize, and anticipate. I'm sure I can find some children who can sit down and whip all of us in these sims. Have you ever seen how good some kids are with driving games? Unreal. I'm surprised to hear this, actually. People have criticized the smallest flaws in other sims, but are willing to overlook something as important, to me at least, as no weather effects in GPL. Dave

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>I'm not sure if you're trying to be controversial by labelling GPL a >"game", and this has been done to death here already. Whatever your >reason, it's pointless to look at GPL as being "too easy". Okay, you, >I and 99% of other sim fans could never hope to do a 1:10 in a >Lotus-49, but what would be the point of releasing a product that >served only to reveal the shortcomings of the people using it? It >wouldn't exactly be a top seller now would it? Simulate as much as you >can, sure, but it also needs to serve the basic function of being >possible for mere mortals to drive and being fun - a GP car designer >doesn't give a hoot about that, just make it as fast as possible. A >_real_ sim that you could complete about one lap in a hundred wouldn't >be too popular I think.

There are other sims which have sold well and are fun and you've ripped them. You have to read the entire thread. I'm not, and could care less about, being controversial. I LIKE GPL and I never said GPL was too easy. I was responding to postings, and Papyrus, saying that GPL was so real, that weather wasn't a feature that could be done well enough to be in the sim right now. My main point was, believe it or not, that GPL, and other sims are not so real that a feature like weather needs to be left out. You seem to be saying in the above paragraph that GPL is not too close to realism, because if it was, you, me, and everyone else would not be able to complete a lap (which is exactly my view). But then you also state in this and other postings that GPL is SO realistic that weather can't be included without dragging the sim to a lower level. What? Didn't Napolean ultimately fail. I said I did sub 1'10's. By that I meant my times were below 1'10" but above the best times in the 1'07"s. Actually I'm at 1'08".55. At most, I've spent about 3 1/2 hours behind the wheel. Actually, I doubt I've spent that much time driving (replays are fun to watch) :-). How long did it take you to get to a 1'08'? Dave

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 20:06:54 -0400, "David G Fisher" >That's my point, there is no comparison between sim racing and real racing. >Sims are still, basically games. I have driven motocross motorcycles (not >cars) and so I can compare sims to the reality of a real engine powered >machine. No sim will ever teach or prepare you for driving a motorcycle, and >the same is for a car. It depends what you mean by "teach" - they can certainly help you know what to expect, and are a safe and cheap way of finding out what effect your inputs will have on a car in various stages of control. My girlfriend had started messing around with driving sims just because I spent time with them, and used to mess around in ICR2 and then GPL. A couple of months after getting GPL we were driving to work in the snow when we hit ice and the car got _real_ sideways. Without batting an eyelid she applied opposite lock, adjusted the throttle, gathered the car back up and carried on. She's never done that before (never having driven on snow before), never experienced a car out of control like that before and couldn't even describe what she did - she just did it automatically because that's what had been programmed into her would work in that situation. Divine intervention? I doubt it, but a good excuse for spending all those hours with sims! That's the same as driving a car - you get the feel, you learn and you anticipate. As for kids and driving games, you should see kids driving cars. I started in karts pretty young and raced stock cars starting when I was 12, and I don't recall having any difficulty against the six*** year olds in the same class - nor when I was six*** and racing against the thirty-somethings when I outgrow the young un's formula. Kids can drive very well, you just ask any policeman in Manchester who's tried to catch a 10 year old joyrider - no sense of fear whatsoever makes them hellish difficult to keep in touch with. It is important, and having weather in GPL would be a HUGE plus. The flip side of course is that the rest of the sim is good enough to stand up even without weather, which I felt was the case with GP2 and ICR2 also. F1RS got it done and done pretty well but CPR is a case in point - the weather was so bad that it might as well not have been there, and with or without the weather the rest of the product was so riddled with holes it wasn't at all enjoyable for most people. In short weather should be there, but to have weather and a compromised driving model or AI is a LOT worse than having no weather at all. In an ideal world every sim would be perfect, but in this world compromises must always be made. This time weather was a compromise, next time I hope it won't. Cheers! John

Your still not listening ! They do not help you know what to expect and the imputs are far from being grounded in reality. To repeat the last poster" no comparison between sim racing and real racing." Sims are games for fun period. .

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>Without batting an eyelid she applied opposite lock, adjusted the throttle, >gathered the car back up and carried on. She's never done that before >(never having driven on snow before), never experienced a car out of >control like that before and couldn't even describe what she did - she >just did it automatically because that's what had been programmed into >her would work in that situation. >Divine intervention? I doubt it, but a good excuse for spending all >those hours with sims!

Well, good to hear that no one was hurt. My mother did the same thing when a car pulled out in front of her on a slick road. Being in the back, I was bounced left and right a few times like a pinball. I see your point about being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they can. Dave

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>>David G Fisher wrote >> The reason I mention these pro drivers is this. What we all talk >> about >> on r.a.s. and enjoy so much may be called sims, but they are still >> games. >> Sorry, it's true. I'm as serious about sims as all of you, and I do >> some >> beta testing and take that seriously too, but I don't kid myself. When >> I can >> sit down at GPL, which most are gushing about it's realism and >> accuracy, and >> are using to criticize other sims, and on my eighth lap be able to do >> a >> 1'20" and then within a few hours be able to do a sub 1'10', this >> isn't >> realistic by any stretch of the imagination. There is NO WAY in hell >> I'd be >> able to get in a real '67 GP Lotus at that track and get anywhere near >> those >> times. Either will anyone else here at r.a.s. Sims are still games >> even at >> their best. >Yes, but you would not manage out of *fear*. That is the total >difference, if you used the same approach as you did in the sim, you >would have died & G T H plentyful, right? >Also, you would be surprised at how many earthlings actually can make a >race car go pretty fast around a track >after a bit of practice, coaching and a few over-the-limit episodes:)

I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't think fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money :-) is the main difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I used to but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles, the early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or '67 Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body around you, a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have memorized. A lot of the fear goes away with some time. I have done 100mph on rugged terrain that I'd never seen before, with rocks and trees just feet away, and only a helmet to protect me in a crash. Not to mention the huge jumps and everything else that goes with motocross riding. People thought I was nuts but I felt quite in control. Sims just can't duplicate the skill requirements needed to do what I just described. Only actually riding the bike can you aquire the skills. Same with cars (I believe). Fear becomes a factor if your skills are not good. To be able to do lap times in a sim as fast as a pro driver is really stretching reality. As good as I was with a bike, pro drivers would destroy me in a race. If I only had a sim to practice with, you can guess the outcome. I'm sure they could do it in a proper way. Sounds to me like we are just getting excuses from Papyrus. Right, they had to drive in the rain, or right, the grip levels must be too slippery as they are right now on the dry Watkin's Glen track? I saw your web page when I sent you the CPR setup last week and it looks like you are DEFINITELY a "realtime" racer. It must be an awesome experience for you to drive those cars! Dave

>Your two seconds are being >lost through*** the tail out and losing rear traction, hence >slower acceleration. Actually I'm in the 1'08's. I've watched replays of others and they seem to slide quite a bit. Others in this thread agree and say it's realistic. That's what I want to know. Is it realistic? You keep bringing up CPR. I'm sure you will see that many of the top CPR drivers will also be top GPL drivers. Sounds like another MS shot. Check out MTM2 (I know it's an arcade game) and the weather effects it has. If Papyrus was capable of what MS has done in their second release in the past 6 months with concerns to weather, I'm sure they would have. Dave

> >Greg would probably not care. It is so unthinkable for us to imagine > >what he is experiencing, you are quite right, I wouldlike to see weather > >too, but only if it could be done in a proper way. > I'm sure they could do it in a proper way. Sounds to me like we are just > getting excuses from Papyrus. I think they are stating quite validly that todays computers are too pathetic to try doing real rain modelling on. But then I'm a programmer, have been since i was 11, over half my life, and I've spent a lot of time dabbling in progrmaming my own simulation software, and when I think of trying to simulate *realistic* rainy conditions myself, I immediately know that it'll take a very powerful computer to model the sheer complexity required. Even when i start thinking up tricks and optimising tehcniques on how i might improve speed and performance of the modelling i still realise that you'd need some at least at the very top range of today's current machines at a guess but I dare not assume that today's machines could really do it properly until i'd actually sat down and spent a while trying to implement it to see just how well it really performed. You'd need to model the entire surface of the track to at least a resolution of half a foot to be able to model the drier and wetter patches of the track - Papyrus will be wanting the ability to drive a drier race line into a wet track, having actual surface water and rivers accross the track. I estimate the surface area of the Watkins Glen track to be around 400,000 square feet, and we want four patches of surface per suqare foot, so the computer will be having to scan over 1,600,000 patches of track surface updating the current state of the water level, evaporation, water flow, etc every clock tick of the sim. As a car drivers through this surface the computer will have to dynamically redistribute the water away from the patches the tyre passed through in the form of spray which will then resettle slighlty offline. Modelling all the spray from the track realistically would not just be moving it directly from the patches the tyre crossed onto the patches besides, but to actally lift the water into the air and let it get blown in the disturbed air and see where it lands to re-wet the track. this modelling will be really *** on cpu use too. You already see the framerate hits GPL gets when a single car produces a lot of smoke from a big tyre lockup, and you know that a race car on a wet track produces a hell of a lot more spray than that amount of smoke, and all cars on a wet track produce spray at every single moment they are on wet track, not just at wheel lockups... i would expect a framerate of maybe 1 or 2 fps at best. And the passage of rain clouds would be modelled properly, how else do you get a patch of rain pouring on one side of Spa Francorchamps but nice sunshine on the other? imagine belting down a huge straight in Belgium and seeing a huge bank of shitty dark clouds coming up and you slam into a wall of rain from a solid downpour, at 300kph.... and of course with the right wind that rain could get blown all the way over the rest of the course too and leave nice sunshine over a wet-but- drying track with steam rising. ok, getting *** here:) could you imagine how cool it would be to race through a wet track in sunshine with a lot of evaporation impairing your view down the track on long straights? etc.. etc... etc.... i could go on and on getting more detailed in the process of just how i'd like to model rain and a wet track in realistic detail.... and then reconsider thinking that Papyrus are just being lazy rather than having a genuine reason for not implementing realistic weather in this current generation of computers. They could of course implement a cheap, unrealistic weather that is exactly constant at any given moment over the whole track, like in every other car sim i have ever seen that models weather, but that cheapness would simply not match the realism of the rest of the sim, so would be very badly out of place. it would ruin the whole effect. Grant.

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> >Yes, but you would not manage out of *fear*. That is the total > >difference, if you used the same approach as you did in the sim, you > >would have died & G T H plentyful, right? > >Also, you would be surprised at how many earthlings actually can make > a > >race car go pretty fast around a track > >after a bit of practice, coaching and a few over-the-limit episodes:) > I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't > think > fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money :-) is the > main > difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I > used to > but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles, > the > early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human > ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or > '67 > Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body > around you, > a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have > memorized.

I know, I've tried a few enduro-bikes, and those pro guys are aliens to me!:))At least you have the chance to jump off, In a '67 GP car you would be mangled and wrapped up in aluminium sheet, get your head chopped off, and finally burn to ashes because the "K-mart shopping bag" fuel cell "erupted". :-D Todays cars are a far cry better, though! Agree, but in the sim, I sort of do the best I can within a given amount of laps/time,then look at my best lap. If I see it is 2 secs off the pace, I try to find where I lose it, just like the real thing. I go out again, and try to improve those spots, but in the sim, I can take chances. I mash the car up against the earthbanks 4-5 times before I find a new braking point etc. In real life I stretch it till I get a "whoaaaa!!" or spin situation (depending on the nature of the piece of track). If I can't beat them in real life, I just blame the car, tires etc, while in the sim I keep on crushing my poor Lotus/Reynard/Chevy/Honda 'till my eyes are red and (hopefully) I set a new best lap:)) (about the weather), David says: May be, but why? Why would they not want to include it? I'd love to see it, I enjoy riving in the rain! Right diffuse..sorry. I think I was trying to comment on the grip levels. Too much coffee.IMO, they aren't too bad, it feels like maybe there's too much air in the tyres. Also, the 1967 Lotus was the first car to use the Ford DF-engine (way past 400 HP), and as I have understood it, it had a very sudden power delivery. It also feels like the diff is maybe set a tad too tight. But, of course, it's IMO:) It might be changed for the release, and I'll make up my mind when I get down to a 1.07, and see how I am driving to get such a time:))) IF! Well, If could just avoid all the **`**** time in the workshop!!!:)))) Cheers, Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

On Sat, 11 Apr 1998 23:57:42 -0400, "David G Fisher" >There are other sims which have sold well and are fun and you've ripped >them. Well, then you get into a definition of "fun" and that would be pointless. I take it you're referring to CPR, which was for me anything but fun. If others enjoyed it then I'm truly happy for them and wish I could have. If GPL were perfectly realistic I'm sure we could drive it - after all, there are schools in France where you can drive a fully fledged F1 car just by showing up. What we couldn't do is run remotely competitively, and that is where sims have to be fun as well as creating the suspension of disbelief. Weather is entirely another issue. Believe it or not I really agree with you, and had GPL been released with good weather I think it would have added to it immensely. OTOH I truly respect not only the abilities of the Papyrus people but also their thinking, and I honestly believe that had they been able to do weather to any reasonable level they would have done so. The fact that they couldn't include weather doesn't thrill me but I have to respect that they know what was and wasn't possible. Personally I feel that GPL offers more than enough that the omission of weather doesn't spoil the experience, but there is only so long that such a thing can be left. If the demand is there it will be attended to. Indeed. He had his long period of reigning supreme though, which is more than can be said for his "equals". About 10 laps in the demo, but then I've been driving GPL for quite some time. Remember too that Watkins Glen is a pretty easy track and you're driving a pre-alpha. Tracks like Mexico and Zandvoort offer ample scope for making a total spectacle of yourself, and are very satisfying to drive. Cheers! John

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 00:35:44 -0400, "David G Fisher" >Well, good to hear that no one was hurt. My mother did the same thing when a >car pulled out in front of her on a slick road. Being in the back, I was >bounced left and right a few times like a pinball. I see your point about >being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the >leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they >can. I have my reservations about that! In my opinion GPL shows how little has been modelled in sims until now, but even GPL can't prepare you for a real car. The mere fact that you can hurt yourself really brings things into focus. Cheers! John

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:13:56 -0400, "David G Fisher" >Actually I'm in the 1'08's. I've watched replays of others and they seem to >slide quite a bit. Others in this thread agree and say it's realistic. >That's what I want to know. Is it realistic? Did you ever have a chance to see Irvine and Schumacher driving their Ferrari F1 cars around the streets during the 50th birthday celebrations of Ferrari? HUGE amounts of drifting, oversteer, flicks and slides. Any rear drive racecar can be setup and driven like that, and the 60's F1 cars were more prone to actually be raced like that due to the differing grip characteristics. What I have noticed when driving GPL is that while it is immensely satisfying to toss the car around like a maniac, it is _smooth_ control that brings the really fast laptimes, not the lurid slides. Even at tracks where slides are necessary, it is a form of controlled aggression that is required if that is understandable? Throwing the car around shaves tenths every time. A good driver is a good driver, but GPL really rewards people like Doug Arnao who are exceptionally smooth. Whenever I arrive at a track I can match Doug's laptime, but when we start to push he gets smooth and I get crazy, with the result being a significant gap between us. I'm working on "smooth" at the moment! MTM2 is real nice, but it is still basically MTM with flashier graphics. That isn't meant to knock it since I'm sure it will be just as much fun as MTM and look a hell of a lot nicer, but with a plethora of 3D boards on the market and MS' buying power I reckon it's easier to make nice graphics than to develop a truly realistic physics engine. Indeed that is the one thing I think Papy need to work on - the presentation. Graphics and sound could both be more "WOW", and that should be something to work on I think. Cheers! John

Umm what about Spa also? When I tried it I could not remember all the corners on that huge track!

On this thread about sims teaching us driving skills I totally agree. Before I started real road racing I drove Atari's Hard Driving coin-op simulation. Fortunately the car in the game drove allot like a front drive CRX-Si which is what I ended up racing in real life. It had the same lift throttle oversteer and the throttle on push. Before starting racing I had never driven a car hard before, I had never driven a manual transmission car, I had never got a car sideways before, the only thing I had done was hours and hours on Atari's hard driving. When I started racing cars in real life I was very fast. There was of course the ramp up period where I needed to get confident in the car (wrecking in real life is not fun <g>). My first year I set a lap record at Sears Point and won the championship. Many a time I got sideways in turn 10 (very fast right hander) and saved it by instinct reactions of the wheel and throttle. I'm positive that allot of the things I learned in Hard Driving helped me in real racing. The more realistic sims get the more they will help us with driving cars in real life. Thanks John O'Keefe

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>MTM2 is real nice, but it is still basically MTM with flashier >graphics. That isn't meant to knock it since I'm sure it will be just >as much fun as MTM and look a hell of a lot nicer, but with a plethora >of 3D boards on the market and MS' buying power I reckon it's easier >to make nice graphics than to develop a truly realistic physics >engine. Indeed that is the one thing I think Papy need to work on - >the presentation. Graphics and sound could both be more "WOW", and >that should be something to work on I think. >Cheers! >John

I think you will be very surprised by the physics engine. Obviously the physics engine won't be set up to be totally "realistic" due to the nature of this game, but what you will see is something special that, along with all the other elements present, could be used to make a great pure sim. It's one of the main reasons why I'm e***d about it. This is a completely new piece of software. Ubi Soft took it's arcade game POD engine and made F1RS. Dave

I beg to differ, I think you could drive an f1 or indycar or nascar by driving a good quality sim. They allow you to learn the tracks, learn basic setup procedures, and race with cars in close competition, without the ill effects of reality when you make a mistake. Although I realize that the learning curve is much shorter, I think it is because of the fear factor more than anything. Who is scared to do a four wheel drift in a Lotus at Watkins Glen on the sim? Hell I'll try it, and pretty soon I won't crash into the wall. But put me out there on the real thing, and I might just take a few laps nice and easy before I push it. My point is, it is unrealistic to think that the sims aren't or don't need to be accurate. The real race car drivers like myself appreciate the sims. Personally, I like them because they keep my reflexes sharp during the off season and times when I can't be in the real thing. By the way, I don't think weather is that big of a deal, unless it is implemented properly. CPR did not do it properly, and games like GP2 didn't do it at all, which I prefer unless they can get it right.

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>>I'm not sure if you're trying to be controversial by labelling GPL a >>"game", and this has been done to death here already. Whatever your >>reason, it's pointless to look at GPL as being "too easy". Okay, you, >>I and 99% of other sim fans could never hope to do a 1:10 in a >>Lotus-49, but what would be the point of releasing a product that >>served only to reveal the shortcomings of the people using it? It >>wouldn't exactly be a top seller now would it? Simulate as much as you >>can, sure, but it also needs to serve the basic function of being >>possible for mere mortals to drive and being fun - a GP car designer >>doesn't give a hoot about that, just make it as fast as possible. A >>_real_ sim that you could complete about one lap in a hundred wouldn't >>be too popular I think. >There are other sims which have sold well and are fun and you've ripped >them. >You have to read the entire thread. I'm not, and could care less about, >being controversial. I LIKE GPL and I never said GPL was too easy. I was >responding to postings, and Papyrus, saying that GPL was so real, that >weather wasn't a feature that could be done well enough to be in the sim >right now. My main point was, believe it or not, that GPL, and other sims >are not so real that a feature like weather needs to be left out. You seem >to be saying in the above paragraph that GPL is not too close to realism, >because if it was, you, me, and everyone else would not be able to complete >a lap (which is exactly my view). But then you also state in this and other >postings that GPL is SO realistic that weather can't be included without >dragging the sim to a lower level. What? >>>My learning curve with GPL was >>>actually quicker than CPR. F1 was the easiest of all. In CPR, even though >I >>>can hang in with all but the very best drivers (Sandman is one I >can't/never >>>will beat), I still would not say that I have mastered the sim even after >5 >>>1/2 months. Second, a group of people work on these sims for months and >>>months and then someone just calls it trash, because it, or parts of it >are >>>not real enough for them. NONE of these sims are real. If anyone thinks >they >>>can drive a real F1, CART, or 67 Lotus based on what they do in a sim

then

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>>>they have real dillusions of grandeur. I get a laugh at some of the >postings >>>I read here. >>Wow, and now you're giving everyone else a chance to get a laugh at >>your posting? Thanks! :-) To paraphrase Orwell, none of these sims are >>real, but some are more real than others. GPL is Napoleon - I'll leave >>you to work out who CPR represents. >Didn't Napolean ultimately fail. >>As for learning curve - people are doing 1:07s and you're 3 seconds >>behind. Looks like you're a fair way short of mastering GPL. >I said I did sub 1'10's. By that I meant my times were below 1'10" but

above >the best times in the 1'07"s. Actually I'm at 1'08".55. At most, I've spent >about 3 1/2 hours behind the wheel. Actually, I doubt I've spent that much >time driving (replays are fun to watch) :-). How long did it take you to >get to a 1'08'? >Dave

John wrote : <sniped 'lot of info> I agree with you. I remember last summer, when I went up to the Mont-Tremblant circuit for an invitation race there. I had the possibility to race there with a Volvo 850turbo. I just had my license not long ago. I was very lucky to actually get the ride (I'm a friend of a Volvo detailing owner), and he was skeptical on my racing capabilities. I did pretty well for a starter, and actually my racing skills I developed for now 9years (when I first bought Indy:500) were all why I was competitive. First of all I already know the circuit, how the car could react, how to tweak up a setup so it could accommodate my driving style, the rules of racing, etc... But most of all, I already known where was the limits of the car, how it reacted, how I feel the sense of speed, and the limit that I couldn't pass over (resulting in a crash). The more we go, the more realistic the simulators will be (it's a natural evolution). Oh, I also did some ice-driving with my friends on many fake-tracks we made up, and I was always the best, because I know what was the car limits, and I had the natural driver reflexes, all this because of the simulators. GPL is just jumping 1 step higher of the long road where reality and simulation will collapse some day Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Member of the r.a.s. Ego-maniac club Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

I understand what you are saying, but you don't seem to be carrying it NEARLY as far as some others have. Initially, a long time ago, somewhere at the beginning of this thread, which was an offshoot of another thread, :-) someone made some statements about a sim being so incredibally realistic that it didn't deserve any criticism. I felt they went a little too far, and said that if they thought they could jump into an F1, Champ, or '67 Lotus and match the times of a pro driver based on what they do in a sim, they were really kidding themselves. The day someone can actually do that, then you have a great sim. Otherwise, people should lighten up with their criticisms and also their counter attacks here on r.a.s. Certainly you can learn something from sims, but for me to think I can hang with Blundell because I did a 50 sec lap at LB on my sim is like thinking I can be a pro quarterback because I can throw a football 70 yards and the pass hits my friend right on the hands. Even if I do that 50 times in a row it doesn't mean a thing. I said somewhere in this thread, I think, that I have had motocross motorcycles and there isn't a sim that has even sniffed at re-creating that experience and won't. You mention the fear factor, as did someone else, but for me, that is only an issue in the beginning. I have done things on a motorcycle that people thought were suicidal but once I got comfortable with my skills, the fear factor quickly vanished. I HAD to experience the real thing. Even then, there's still a huge gap between me and the best riders. I said that I had hit 100mph on off road terrain that I had never seen before, with trees and boulders, drop offs, debris all around, huge jumps, and only a helmet for protection. I'd probably have less to fear in an F1 race. The fear factor would be an issue but my failure would be based more on a lack of real experience behind the wheel and also a lack of natural talent that the top athletes possess in any sport. A motorcycle sim can never prepare me to do what I can now on a bike. A car sim can never prepare me to beat Schumacher. The most they can do is give you a glimpse of what it's like and in combination you have to do a little fantasizing. So like I said at the beginning, people here at r.a.s. need to lighten up a little and not go overboard in their discussions of sims. The GPL war that is going on right now is a good example of people taking this stuff way too far. Dave

> Your still not listening ! They do not help you know > what to expect and the imputs are far from being grounded in reality. To > repeat the last poster" no comparison between sim racing and real racing." > Sims are games for fun period. > . This is complete rubbish. After spending many hours with ICR2 and it's excellent job of recreating body roll, I feel the same things when driving on the street and feel far better at driving thru corners on the road than my pre ICR2 days. Your comment is just utter nonsense. What sims have you used anyway? NFSII????? Mario Karts?????

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> Well, good to hear that no one was hurt. My mother did the same thing when a > car pulled out in front of her on a slick road. Being in the back, I was > bounced left and right a few times like a pinball. I see your point about > being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the > leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they > can. > Dave

Well put it this way Dave. Who is more prepared to drive a real race car. 1/ Someone with extensive experience with the best sims? or 2/ Someone who has driven a street car at moderate, every day speeds?

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> I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't think > fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money :-) is the main > difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I used to > but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles, the > early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human > ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or '67 > Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body around you, > a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have memorized. > A lot of the fear goes away with some time. I have done 100mph on rugged > terrain that I'd never seen before, with rocks and trees just feet away, and > only a helmet to protect me in a crash. Not to mention the huge jumps and > everything else that goes with motocross riding. People thought I was nuts > but I felt quite in control. Sims just can't duplicate the skill > requirements needed to do what I just described. Only actually riding the > bike can you aquire the skills. Same with cars (I believe). Fear becomes a > factor if your skills are not good. To be able to do lap times in a sim as > fast as a pro driver is really stretching reality. As good as I was with a > bike, pro drivers would destroy me in a race. If I only had a sim to > practice with, you can guess the outcome.

No chance! Fear is definantly the defining point between sims and real life! For eg, in real life a driver must slowly work his way up to speed to find the limit - bit by bit - or risk life and car. In a sim you can do as you please to find the limit and since you can go to and over the limit no worries you will obviously get up to speed quicker. After this, it's juat a matter of how well the simmer or real driver knows the track and his car. When and if we ever get a sim that can simulate racing perfectly the simmers will always be faster than the real drivers simply because of the fear factor.

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> >Your two seconds are being > >lost through*** the tail out and losing rear traction, hence > >slower acceleration. > Actually I'm in the 1'08's. I've watched replays of others and they seem to > slide quite a bit. Others in this thread agree and say it's realistic. > That's what I want to know. Is it realistic?

Something else to keep in mind is that we are only hotlapping at this time. When we begin to race we won't be pushing this hard and will also have to look after the tyres. This alone should smooth things out considerably. Also, we have no access to setup options yet and Papy have stated that the physics model is NOT final yet.

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> Funny CPR steers about the same or better than GPL. > But back > when it came out you all said it was " unrealistic" > Now Papy does a > slippery/realistic sim and its " oh you cant drive" > if you cant handle this? > Ah the irony of it all.

I don't remember too many people saying CPR was "unrealistic". It was just poorly finished and that was 99% of the complaining I saw. How realistic it may have been was never appreciated by many because it was so frustrating in so many areas people just gave up on it. So they should have too. If a company cannot make the sim easy to get going they should get out of the sim business! CPR was a disgrace and GPL is an alpha demo. I know which I prefer. Can't wait for the full release either!

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> Well put it this way Dave. Who is more prepared to drive a real race >car. > 1/ Someone with extensive experience with the best sims? > or > 2/ Someone who has driven a street car at moderate, every day speeds?

If I own the car, neither of them are getting anywhere near it. :-) How about this question? Who's better prepared to drive a race car. Someone who has never driven a real car, only sims. Or someone who drives a car normally? My answer would still be the same but I'd definitely lean to the person who's drives a real car. Dave

What were the avg. lap times? I know I read where the real drivers were able to do 1'05"s. Was that qualifying or race times? So far the best hot lap is 1'07". If lap times slow down during the races, even with better setups, are we at 1'10's? Is this what the real drivers race times were? I don't know. Dave

>Umm what about Spa also? When I tried it I could not remember all the >corners on that huge track! Spa is a bit like the Glen - one or two pretty tough corners, but an awful lot of driving flat out - not too tough to learn after two or three laps. It's _relatively_ straightforward to hotlap on, at least as a sim. Now in real life, THAT would be a different story. One think Spa does bring home is how utterly mental these guys must have been. I cannot begin to imagine how many times I have "killed" myself there. Cheers! John

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> It's not about having no clue, it's about never ACTUALLY driven an F1, > Champ, or '67 Lotus. I didn't say GPL was too easy, just that it isn't much > different from any other sim. And I "asked" if GPL was too slippery in my > original post, not insisted. I'm sure Chris is an excellent sim driver, but > how many hours has he put into GPL? I've had about 3 1/2 total and I'm down > to a 1'08".55. Not bad I think. All the sims are basically the same, you get > the feel, memorize, and anticipate. I'm sure I can find some children who > can sit down and whip all of us in these sims. Have you ever seen how good > some kids are with driving games? Unreal.

snip Hi Dave If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track, one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a 25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will be the fastest in a short time ? My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of course Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

> On this thread about sims teaching us driving skills I totally agree. > Before I started real road racing I drove Atari's Hard Driving coin-op > simulation. Fortunately the car in the game drove allot like a front drive > CRX-Si which is what I ended up racing in real life. It had the same lift > throttle oversteer and the throttle on push. Before starting racing I had But your CRX-Si didn't do donuts (under power) in 1st gear...(unless you had the handbrake on). The numbers that we put in Hard Drivin' were pretty close to describing the rear-drive "King of the Hill" Corvette with the ~400 hp Lotus-designed engine, but with more air drag to limit the top speed. We did make the HD / RD car more "stable" (in several ways) so that we wouldn't scare off first-time players. I remember that I tried a development version once with my best shot at some real race car parameters, it was _extremely_ hard to drive. Remember that arcade games are all about taking quarters -- looks like we were pretty successful in your case! BTW, you aren't the first person to learn to use a manual transmission with this game -- that would have been some of the Atari employees that wandered into the development lab about a year before 1st release... Thanks for the comments! -- Doug Milliken

>The more realistic sims >get the more they will help us with driving cars in real life. And the reverse is true too... Since playing GPL I have found that I end up driving my road car (Toyota Celica) like the cars in GPL - braking in a straight line, not jumping on and off the gas, etc. At one stage last weekend my brother had to tell me to change out of third gear because I was being over-cautious! I would argue that driving GPL is a good advert for road safety - it makes you acutely aware of how easy it is to stick a powerful car in a hedge on a regular basis if you don't treat it with respect! Alan Head =========================================== Grand Prix Legends Homepages http://www.gp-legends.com ===========================================

Well, I don't have that problem... but I use the (gas) forklift at work most nights and if I let my mind drift I find myself feathering the throttle, dabbing gently at the brake, and choosing racing lines through the warehouse. Generally behaviour not to be encouraged. This demo has a lot to answer for! :-) Andrew McP

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>If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track, >one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a >25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will >be the fastest in a short time ? >My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary >shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is >supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too >fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics >he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of >course

All I can say is, bring him on! I doubt a kid would be faster unless the *** was pretty inept. In fact the most likely way the kid would be faster is because he is lighter. Driver weight plays a huge part in go-karts, especially the underpowered indoor thingies. Cheers! John (pretty succesful ex go-karter)

> I see your point about > being able to teach, but some people actually believe they could make the > leap to real cars based on their sim skills. At least they talk like they > can. I guess I'm one of those people. I have no formal motorized racing experience whatsoever. The only real racing I've done is BMX, but I have had 3-wheelers, ridden motocross motorcycles on real motocross tracks, and of course, driven normal cars on the street. Here is my story :) There is a place in Indianapolis called Stephan Johanssen's (sp?) Karting Center. The have real, fast, racing karts that you can drive on an indoor road-type course. Lap times are a little over 20 seconds. I've been there twice with a group of people who include: motocross racers, flat track motorcycle racers, and policemen (who you would assume to have more experience and training in driving cars than most people). Both times, I've been the fastest person in the group. I attribute this fact solely to the thousands of hours spent with racing simulations in the past 6 years. The simulations have taught me about proper racing lines. They also teach a person about things like oversteer and understeer, and how to control it. Right now, I'm trying to find a way to jump into real cars. When it happens, I know for a fact that I'll be a better driver because of my sim-racing experience. That doesn't mean that there won't be a learning curve involved. It doesn't mean that I could hop in an F1 car and set records. It does mean that I'm more prepared to learn than I would be without racing simulators. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

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> > Since playing GPL I have found that I end up > > driving my road car (Toyota Celica) like the cars in GPL > Well, I don't have that problem... but I use the (gas) forklift at work > most nights and if I let my mind drift I find myself feathering the > throttle, dabbing gently at the brake, and choosing racing lines through > the warehouse. Generally behaviour not to be encouraged. This demo has a > lot to answer for! :-)

Just watch those marshalls!

As Pat knows, I also live in Indy. While I have little experience in real cars, I have attended a couple driving schools and raced a Stefan's karting center. My experience has been the same and can be attributed directly to racing sims for the same reasons that Pat spells out. As Pat says, he is not claiming that he is ready to outbrake Zanardi into T1 at Surfer's because of ICR2 or GPL. However, the skills and timing honed using these sims absolutely do transfer. The biggest differences are the physical aspects. A SCCA spec racer or even a kart requires a bit of physical stamina that one doesn't tap while sim racing. One also must "use his butt" to feel what the car is doing. If Trevor T. can implement this form of force-feedback, I'm buying. A jerky wheel does little for me. But, that's a different thread. If you are ever in Indy, check out the Stefan's karting center. It is unlike others in the States. It's not a fun kart place. While your here also consider checking out some sprints and/or midgets at Raceway Park, Putnamville, Bloomington, Winchester or 16th Street. While the guys that ran 60's grand prix cars had 16-pound "bowling balls," these guys have at least 12-pounders. For Pat's family's sake I hope his jump into real cars is not into one of these beasts. When are we going racing, Pat? Jim

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> There is a place in Indianapolis called Stephan Johanssen's (sp?) > Karting Center. The have real, fast, racing karts that you can > drive on an indoor road-type course. Lap times are a little > over 20 seconds. > I've been there twice with a group of people who include: motocross > racers, flat track motorcycle racers, and policemen (who you would > assume to have more experience and training in driving cars than > most people). Both times, I've been the fastest person in the > group. I attribute this fact solely to the thousands of hours spent > with racing simulations in the past 6 years. The simulations have > taught me about proper racing lines. They also teach a person about > things like oversteer and understeer, and how to control it. > Right now, I'm trying to find a way to jump into real cars. > When it happens, I know for a fact that I'll be a better driver because > of my sim-racing experience. That doesn't mean that there won't be > a learning curve involved. It doesn't mean that I could hop in an F1 > car and set records. It does mean that I'm more prepared to learn > than I would be without racing simulators. > -- > Pat Dotson > IMPACT Motorsports

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> >If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track, > >one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a > >25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will > >be the fastest in a short time ? > >My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary > >shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is > >supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too > >fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics > >he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of > >course > All I can say is, bring him on! > I doubt a kid would be faster unless the *** was pretty inept. In > fact the most likely way the kid would be faster is because he is > lighter. Driver weight plays a huge part in go-karts, especially the > underpowered indoor thingies. > Cheers! > John (pretty succesful ex go-karter)

I have to disagree John, while*** around in the local go-kart tracks a few years back (some of my friends used to drive), I was amazed at how quick some of these kids that came to the open/try out days for ppl without a license picked up the pace and drove away from most of the ***s that were there for the first time, I agree that the weight issue would be big factor though. While I`m not the best of examples because I can`t get the hang of how quick these things react to driver input (arcade :-), my brother didn`t take long to kick my ***and at the time he was about 14 and I was 22 with a lot of (spirited :-) driving experience in fairly quick road cars even back then, he`s a big guy so we weighed about the same too. Although I`m sure I could get rid of this direct input (pun intended :-) thing that prevents me from getting (reasonably) good at it, it certainly would take me longer than someone without any preconceptions as how something with 4 wheels is supposed to react to driver input, and I don`t think it`s because I`m a bad driver, because on the open days at our local race track I can take just about any car (that I can get my sweaty hands on :-) and drive them fairly quickly and close to the limits in a fairly short time Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy (not very succesful sometimes go-karter :-) UncleGoy on TEN

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> > >If you take two people that have never driven a Go-kart to the track, > > >one is a 12-14 year old kid who has never driven a car and the other a > > >25 year old with 8 years of driving ON THE ROAD, who do you think will > > >be the fastest in a short time ? > > >My bet is the kid because they don`t have any ( and here my vocabulary > > >shows it`s limitations :-) preconceptions (?) of how this thing is > > >supposed to be and no fear of what could go wrong if they drive too > > >fast, so with only the coaching needed to get going and a few basics > > >he/she will be the faster of the two in a very short time, IMHO of > > >course > > All I can say is, bring him on! > > I doubt a kid would be faster unless the *** was pretty inept. In > > fact the most likely way the kid would be faster is because he is > > lighter. Driver weight plays a huge part in go-karts, especially the > > underpowered indoor thingies. > > Cheers! > > John (pretty succesful ex go-karter) > I have to disagree John, while*** around in the local go-kart > tracks a few years back (some of my friends used to drive), I was amazed > at how quick some of these kids that came to the open/try out days for > ppl without a license picked up the pace and drove away from most of the > ***s that were there for the first time, I agree that the weight issue > would be big factor though. > Beers and cheers > (uncle) Goy (not very succesful sometimes go-karter :-) > UncleGoy on TEN

My first time go-karting (indoor low powered thingies) I was lapped by one of the staff during the 10 minute race. I tried it again about 20 minutes later (after my thumbs had loosened up a bit) and lapped everyone. The toughest part was not catching them but passing. I'm not a small guy (6'0" 200lbs) and couldn't accelerate like the lightweights could but I was cornering faster, taking the proper lines and not using the brakes at all. It doesn't matter how old you are or how much experience you have, natural talent always comes through. And I don't mean me, I was just better than the guys at the place at the time. IMHO they were really bad. Anyway my point is that if you're good you're good regardless of anything else. Only so much can be learned all the rest is genes. Alan

>I have to disagree John, while*** around in the local go-kart >tracks a few years back (some of my friends used to drive), I was amazed >at how quick some of these kids that came to the open/try out days for >ppl without a license picked up the pace and drove away from most of the >***s that were there for the first time, I agree that the weight issue >would be big factor though. Weight is an enormous factor, especially with the smaller single engine karts you get at most karting centres, but even with twins or Prokarts. I recently had a get together with a lot of the guys I used to race with, and we all went along to the local kart track for a bit of a bash. I'm the only one who has really raced karts and I won one of my races simply from weight. One of my mates is, er, a bit heavy, and I was fourth on the grid with him on pole. I knew he would be reeeeeeeeeal slow away from the line, so when the lights went green I went to the outside of the first corner and simply drove around all the guys who were tucked in behind his (struggling) kart. By the time they passed I was long gone. You can see this every day in every form of racing, but in karts where the power to weight ratio is so poor every ounce of weight saved is vital. Karting is a particular skill and somewhat different from other racing disciplines. IMO not so much is done from "feel" and balance such as you are exhibiting in other cars, but more from a knowledge of how much abuse the kart will take, lightning reflexes and experience. "Abuse" means how hard you can toss it into a turn and still hold onto it, since this is the preferred cornering method for anything non-hairpin and non-sweeper. Sweeps you basically take classically and hairpins are set up firstly to avoid anyone passing you and secondly to preserve as much speed as you possibly can (due to poor acceleration). Lightning reflexes is a spin-off from the abuse - when you step over the line and ask too much of the chassis you have chosen for that track the fall from grace, or fall from grip, will be extremely rapid - you need to anticipate this and dial-in the opposite lock incredibly quickly. The little Bridgestones are pretty sticky and will haul you out of most things when warmed up. Finally the experience - simply where on the track is bumpy, where you need to turn out of the corner to get a real flick and where there is a sudden grippy patch that will *** you if you do try that. All these and more are vital in karts. IMO the basic skills of driving a car and driving a kart are the same, they just come in different measures and different orders of priority - adjustment is all that's required. In saying all that I've convinced myself that you may indeed have a point about preconceived notions, but that's not a strength of all "non-drivers" it's a weakness of some drivers. Cheers! John

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> Weight is an enormous factor, especially with the smaller single > engine karts you get at most karting centres, but even with twins or > Prokarts. > I recently had a get together with a lot of the guys I used to race > with, and we all went along to the local kart track for a bit of a > bash. I'm the only one who has really raced karts and I won one of my > races simply from weight. One of my mates is, er, a bit heavy, and I > was fourth on the grid with him on pole. I knew he would be > reeeeeeeeeal slow away from the line, so when the lights went green I > went to the outside of the first corner and simply drove around all > the guys who were tucked in behind his (struggling) kart. By the time > they passed I was long gone. > You can see this every day in every form of racing, but in karts where > the power to weight ratio is so poor every ounce of weight saved is > vital.

No disagreement here I`ll go along with that, but I`d say it`s much easier to go from kart to cars than the other way round, and the exact same things apply when I try out a new racing sim/game, I have expectations of how a car "should" behave when I move the wheel etc, and when I do certain things in the setup I want to "feel" that this sim reacts in much the same way as my car reacts to setup changes, even more reason to be impressed of GPL I guess, it gives me a "feel" for the car and reacts in a way that a car should (given certain setups and stuff) wich made it fairly easy for me to get below 1:10`s at least, although I`ll always be beaten by the guys with "real" talent for this, I`m just not THAT good a driver. Thx John, that last one was all I needed to end a crappy day, LOL Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy UncleGoy on TEN

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> 1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it > seems to be acquaplaning. This is a major problem with all Papyrus sims. > I've been racing Indycar2 on and off for two years now and have never > accquired a feel for driving it. Same goes for GPL, one really has to > concentrate too *** the steering inputs. Furthermore, the braking > inputs just do not seem to be right either just as in Indycar2/Nascar2. > Papyrus should take a page out of Microprose's GP2 book on how to model > steering and brake inputs.

Above isn`t about F1RS but that one has to concentrate too *** the steeringinputs seems a major problem of many GP Sims. EX-F1 Pilot Bertrand Gachot about F1RS while driving it with a steering Wheel during a live-talkshow: That`s more difficult than a real F1. Very good simulated but more difficult to drive. (...) I still like F1RS though. IMHO Crammond is the only one who`s made the right balance between drive- play- and steerabillity and acurate simulation. It`s not that diffcult to drive a real F1 cars straight! (Bertrand Gachot about F1RS) GPL on the other hand is so difficult to drive cause the cars of this time were so unstable (with 410hp and no wings). So they got it right for me. Lutz -- Home: [link lost in import]

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> Above isn`t about F1RS but that one has to concentrate too *** the > steeringinputs seems a major problem of many GP Sims. > EX-F1 Pilot Bertrand Gachot about F1RS while driving it with a steering > Wheel during a live-talkshow: > That`s more difficult than a real F1. Very good simulated but more difficult > to drive. (...) > I still like F1RS though. > IMHO Crammond is the only one who`s made the right balance between drive- > play- and steerabillity and acurate simulation. > It`s not that diffcult to drive a real F1 cars straight! (Bertrand Gachot > about F1RS)

I thought I was going mad! I disliked F1RS (at least partly) because I couldn't believe the steering was accurate. I'm glad a real F1 driver has confirmed this belief. Even if I was able to play F1RS with a perfect frame rate, I'd still say GP2 is the better game and the better simulation. Having said that, there's a tremendous thrill in F1RS whenever you take a corner well - it's just that it doesn't happen all that often. At least in GP2 I can actally concentrate on the racing. Huw -- Note: Mail to the above address will bounce. Please reply to:

I have gone mad playing CPR! I believe the car's handling is just bananas. It is not the setup (I think) as I have downloaded 'fast' setups to find them more uncontrollable and slower than mine. Could my driving style be the poblem? OTOH, FIRS is as I imagined an F1 car to be - easy and intuative. I can't believe that Frank Williams - with all his millions - is going to produce cars that are a handful to control. ATB, Tony.

On Tue, 21 Apr 1998 21:29:51 +0100, Antony Hirst >OTOH, FIRS is as I imagined an F1 car to be - easy and intuative. I >can't believe that Frank Williams - with all his millions - is going to >produce cars that are a handful to control. On the other hand I've heard (about aircrafts though) that the more unstability you put into it the more maneuverability you get, so it doesn't seem to be as simple as you put it... A. Renault

> > 1) I just do not get the sensation that I'm in control of the car -- it > > seems to be acquaplaning. This is a major problem with all Papyrus sims. > > I've been racing Indycar2 on and off for two years now and have never > > accquired a feel for driving it. Have to agree with this comment 100%....I got Cart II last Sunday and while it felt decent on the ovals (Broke 2 track records first time out!!) it felt like a pig at Laguna Seca....maybe this is how real Cart cars are? We should probably ask someone who learned how to drive using Cart sim first.....my first sim was gp2 and therefore I'm used to the superresponsiveness that it provides.......cart to me is definitely harder...maybe it's the turbo lag. RC

I think that you are refering to the F16 and others of that ilk. The trouble is they need a computers to do the hard work or the pilot would loose control and crash. F1 cars can't have these devices to make the cars more controllable. Tony.

On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:28:28 +0100, Antony Hirst >I think that you are refering to the F16 and others of that ilk. The >trouble is they need a computers to do the hard work or the pilot would >loose control and crash. F1 cars can't have these devices to make the >cars more controllable. Yeah I remember now we were talking about stealth aircrafts. You're right about them needing a computer, I've read somewhere that if the computers fail the plane has 99% chances of crashing... But as for F1 I think the same principle applies, but to a lesser extent (obviously!). A. Renault

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>On Wed, 22 Apr 1998 20:28:28 +0100, Antony Hirst >>I think that you are refering to the F16 and others of that ilk. The >>trouble is they need a computers to do the hard work or the pilot would >>loose control and crash. F1 cars can't have these devices to make the >>cars more controllable. >Yeah I remember now we were talking about stealth aircrafts. You're >right about them needing a computer, I've read somewhere that if the >computers fail the plane has 99% chances of crashing... But as for F1 >I think the same principle applies, but to a lesser extent >(obviously!).

I don't see why it would (or for that matter, wouldn't) apply to F1. Extrapolating from one to the other without any knowledge of the physics is pretty useless. FWIW, what's happening with the planes is that in normal "stable" aircraft, the center of gravity is ahead of the center of lift. So the wings give lift and simultaneously, a pitch down moment (force * distance). To counter the pitch down, the tail is designed to give negative lift and a pitch up. This is inefficient as the tail is pushing the plane down. If you move the center of gravity further back, behind the center of lift, you wind up with a pitch up moment from the wing's lift. To counter this, you get positive lift out of the tail (a plus) with a countering pitch down. But it turns out this is unstable. Yes, the computers react fast enough in dynamic situations to keep it stable. Actually, there are differences between static and dynamic stability. But that's getting into more than I want to right now (ie, I really don't know all this stuff :-)). So, in final, I have no idea how on can extrapolate from an F16 to an F1 car on this subject...

What the... ?!!! I never extrapolated F16 flight dynamics to F1 sims!!! I only stated that since the most maneuverable airplanes show instability, it *might* be possible that in order to increase the maneuverability of a F1 car you have to introduce technology that doesn't aim to make the car easier to drive. Now do you have first hand knowledge that would disprove my *hypothesis*? If so I'd like to know about it so I won't display my ignorance once again! A. Renault

: Yeah I remember now we were talking about stealth aircrafts. You're : right about them needing a computer, I've read somewhere that if the : computers fail the plane has 99% chances of crashing... But as for F1 : I think the same principle applies, but to a lesser extent : (obviously!). Computers controlling active suspension/ride height can make a poor chassis design (not the same meaning as unstable, I know) appear to be a good one. The Lotus 107 looked good in '92 and '93 but turned into a shitbox in '94. Of course, that season's overweight Mugen may have had something to do with the poor performance as well... Martin Nigel Mansell RIP!

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> > Above isn`t about F1RS but that one has to concentrate too *** the > > steering inputs seems a major problem of many GP Sims. > > EX-F1 Pilot Bertrand Gachot about F1RS while driving it with a steering > > Wheel during a live-talkshow: > > That`s more difficult than a real F1. Very good simulated but more difficult > > to drive. (...) > > I still like F1RS though. > > IMHO Crammond is the only one who`s made the right balance between drive- > > play- and steerabillity and acurate simulation. > > It`s not that diffcult to drive a real F1 cars straight! (Bertrand Gachot > > about F1RS) > I thought I was going mad! I disliked F1RS (at least partly) because I > couldn't believe the steering was accurate.

I prefer to drive F1RS from outside view, cause it`s not so difficult for me. It seems that you are a little bit too deep inside the***pit in F1RS. GP2 has the more realistic seating position of a driver. I`m glad too - that`s why i still think GP2 is the better overall sim, too. F1RS graphics are brilliant. Also the simulation of ( for example) losing only one gear is great. As I said before - I still like F1RS. I agree to this comment. Lutz -- Home: [link lost in import]

On Sun, 12 Apr 1998 01:11:06 -0400, "David G Fisher"

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>>>David G Fisher wrote >>> The reason I mention these pro drivers is this. What we all talk >I would definitely have been dead and buried MANY times. But I don't think >fear of pain, injury, and loss of great amounts of money :-) is the main >difference between driving a sim fast and driving a real car fast. I used to >but then I remembered that when I've driven my motocross motorcycles, the >early fear had quickly disappeared (probably due to plain old human >ignorance). I would even say that I'd feel safer in an F1, Champ, or '67 >Lotus than I would on a motorcycle. At least you have a car body around you, >a track that has some safety features, and a track that you have memorized. >A lot of the fear goes away with some time. I have done 100mph on rugged >terrain that I'd never seen before, with rocks and trees just feet away, and >only a helmet to protect me in a crash. Not to mention the huge jumps and >everything else that goes with motocross riding. People thought I was nuts >but I felt quite in control. Sims just can't duplicate the skill >requirements needed to do what I just described. Only actually riding the >bike can you aquire the skills. Same with cars (I believe). Fear becomes a >factor if your skills are not good. To be able to do lap times in a sim as >fast as a pro driver is really stretching reality. As good as I was with a >bike, pro drivers would destroy me in a race. If I only had a sim to >practice with, you can guess the outcome.

Well I used to race both Motocross and Road Race motorcycles. And I will admit to going over 100mph while Road Racing . I think you are just going a bit to far saying you were running 100mph while racing on a motocross tarck is a bit much!!! 65 to 75mph is the normal top speed on a FAST Motocross track! Now racing like the Mint 400 or other cross country races yes you do go over 100mph BUT 100mph in MotoX naaa it just don't happen. If you were riding your motocross bike on some power line roads or just out playing around yes that I can see but I have yet to see 100mph motocross tracks. And one of the tracks near me is one of the faster out door tracks. Red Bud in Buchanon Mich. Jack

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> > I thought I was going mad! I disliked F1RS (at least partly) because I > > couldn't believe the steering was accurate. I'm glad a real F1 driver > > has confirmed this belief. Even if I was able to play F1RS with a > > perfect frame rate, I'd still say GP2 is the better game and the > better > I have gone mad playing CPR! I believe the car's handling is just > bananas. It is not the setup (I think) as I have downloaded 'fast' > setups to find them more uncontrollable and slower than mine. Could my > driving style be the poblem? > OTOH, FIRS is as I imagined an F1 car to be - easy and intuative. I > can't believe that Frank Williams - with all his millions - is going to > produce cars that are a handful to control.

Quick race cars are always a handful. If it's easy to control, then it's almost certainly slow, at least over a single qualifying lap. Endurance racers will be trimmed back a little bit to avoid falling off at the end of a four-hour stint... The quick setups you've downloaded will be extremely fast if you can keep them on the track, although (at least with real physics) I still maintain that there is no one best setup for a car - it depends on your personal driving style. A fellow model car racer, who is somewhere around my pace, accused my car of being 'undriveable' when we swapped for a few laps. I found his horribly, horribly sluggish and unresponsive. Jonny --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Hodgson | TTech Predator | | than win by two laps | LSU Archery Club and Orchestra | ---------------------------------------------------------------------

>I never extrapolated F16 flight dynamics to F1 sims!!! I only stated >that since the most maneuverable airplanes show instability, it That might be true of older non computer controled aircraft, but the modern aircraft us their computer control programs to maintain a flight envelope. Even the F-15... Since you use *might*, anything is of course possible. But in general I think not. For one I think the aerodynamics in the car body is primarily concerned with downforce, and some straight line speed. And of course you can have problems in traffice. Besides you can set up your F1 car like ***to make it more manouverable and harder to drive right now. I think Jordan is doing that, aren't they :-) Huh. -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.