GPL demo vs. F1RS, from a devout F1RS/GP2/World Circuit fan (long)

Excellent review...thanks for the effort. PAPA DOC Pierre PAPA DOC Legrand Infamous Pink Flamingo Pilot...<G>

Jeff, I was thinking that in '67 the drivers almost lay on their backs, nearly looking over their toes to drive. In a '96 F1 car the driver sits more upright and has a slightly different perspective. I love the letterbox format of GPL. Looks like the view through the shield in my Shoei! Don

Excellent review, just adding my 2 Canadian... Well, since Mr. Kaemmer is a very hard-headed man, and wants everything perfect, Papyrus's way of making wet conditions is almost impossible. This include rain/fog/effects on tires on different surfaces/weather on different parts on tracks/hard and light rain/wather rivers/etc... Compared to F1RS, it's 10x more complicated. I still think that the rain weather of F1RS is very simple. FIA graphics ? This is the new standard, or what ;-) GPL legends is in full 16-bit colors, and I would think that the way they paint is "unique", and looks really neat. A mixture of cartoonish and reality at the same time. I won't talk about Bugs Bunny F1RS colors ;-) I think the driving position is way to low in F1RS. Must be this impression I have also. Oh and about the framerate, note that GPL uses 160+ cycles, and I doubt F1RS has more. I was impressed also. I always tought there is no need to see the sky, so with a letterbox they can put a bigger angle of view. I can't imagine the car at the bottom of the screen with 40% of the screen who is the sky. Makes better framerate also ;-) Montral ? Huh ??? The only addition thought is that the mass-*** people don't like GPL, because it's too difficult. Hope there is a arcade version for arcade people. Not that I want it, but it would boost up the sales, and make more money in Papyrus pockets ;-) Papyrus would but can't do a racing simulator who is like reality. Sure we would like it. But where's the benifits for them ? Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:00:18 GMT, > First off, the lack of weather...Kind of odd. Anyway, I >read somewhere that Papy left this out, citing 'complexities' in the >physics model- one can only assume that there's more to this than >simply changing the coefficient of friction There is. It's not simply a function of lowering the overall grip of the track, you need to define that grip will be higher offline than on since water and laid down *** are not good bedfellows. You need to consider where there will be streams, where puddles will form, and where the track will dry (given that the drying effect should be highest where it is windy and on the line the cars are running - areas of trees will take longer as spray will hang in the air and fall back to the track). You need to model the graphics, and when you consider that the smoke generated by the tyres in GPL reflects the airflow over the tyre, you can imagine that things like spray would need to be done properly to relect depth of water, airflow off the rear wing etc etc. It's easy to put in "wet weather" but once you try to define "properly" it is a whole new ball game. I think it is essential in a modern sim, but then GPL simulates an era where data logging was not even a dream. It definitely shouldn't be there IMO. It's a subjective thing. I prefer GPL to F1RS and preferred F1RS over GP2 or CPR. The sound is a placeholder. Remember that a lot of people here _have_ actually driven real cars (still do in some cases, and to surprisingly high levels). Many people really are qualified to have that opinion, and in any case the vast majority have driven a road car and know how a car actually responds to given inputs. The cars in F1RS and GPL should respond in the same manner given appropriate consideration for the effects of the wings etc. Other than the above (hey, it's just my opinion!), nice balanced review. Cheers! John

Hi Don- I had the good fortune to sit in a Williams-Renault FW16 and, uh, cough, you're just not right. :) It's like you're completely laid out flat, and your upper body is curled up a bit. This perspective thing, between F1RS and GPL, is really daft to say the least. It was kind of like laying on your back inside a kayak. Just plain painful! Jeff

Why do I get the feeling that if someone like Greg Moore was asked if weather should be in this sim, he would say, "sure, put rain in the game and make it slippery". Dave

Hi Jeff, Well... the Williams was probably a better experience than I had getting in and out of one of Nick Wirth's Simteks. Jeez, that car is small, but I am 6 ft. and F1 drivers are much smaller. I had my knees pulled up to the top of the tub just to hit the pedals, I couldn't even work them! But in that car at least, the driver sat in a relativly upright position. I remember commenting at the time that the seating position felt a lot like my kart. As a kid, I got to sit in an old Cooper-Climax. I was astonished to find that there was really no seat. The driver sat on a formed sheet of aluminium that, they explained to me, was the bottom of the car! There were odd bits of chassis and radiator tubing in the***pit, seemingly all placed where the driver would bang into it while cornering. Racing drivers were different in those days... Back to The Glen! Don

I remember that Alain Prost's book mentioned it's better to sit right on the floor, for better feel. He said it's an unwritten trick. That might explain something too.... I couldn't even slide into the Williams without straightening out my legs; the nose was so narrow bending the knees wouldn't let you slide forward...the guy from Williams said to 'point your feet forward, and your legs too....' Wild stuff. I think I better rent Grand Prix this weekend before the GP in Argentina :-) Jeff

I found the sound track to Grand Prix a few weeks back. I've been playing it in the background while I drive GPL....this is getting serious...does anyone know where I can get a pair of string back driving gloves? I wonder if TSW would make a controller with a polished wood rimmed steering wheel? This is better than Mr. Peabody's Way Back Machine! ....seriously going off the deep end here...Don

On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:00:18 GMT,

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>(soapbox time....you've been warned!) > Let me make one point- before casting stones about 'driving >models' and such, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT about 'realistic models' unless >you've driven race cars- unless Stirling Moss and Jacques Villeneuve >are lurking, most comments are conjecture, nothing more. A lot of >people seem to think that the harder it is, the more accurate it is.

<snip> <snip> Jeff, I would really like to see how many people commenting on the GPL driving model were even old enough to know what those cars looked like let alone ever driven one. I have to rely on my father's impression and feedback, since I was only 4 years old in 1967. :) I would never presume to comment on any driving model since I've never stepped into a real F1, CART Champ, or NASCAR racing machine (unless it was standing still and in a museum or expo), but nevertheless I am eager to read the comments from "real racers." ***y-bop sim bashers should stick to playing Mario on their Nintendo's and clear up some of the space in this newsgroup. <my soapbox now turned off> Kyle

My previous post was definitely not intended to impune anyone's comment in this thread. Of the follow-up posts I've read from your initial one, you've got the cream of the crop replying, names of sim racers that I highly respect and always read when I see that they've taken the time to post a message or reply. Thanks to those serious racers who still hang around here in r.a.s.! Your thoughts and impressions are always welcome and appreciated. Kyle :)

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>On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:00:18 GMT, >>(soapbox time....you've been warned!) >> Let me make one point- before casting stones about 'driving >>models' and such, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT about 'realistic models' unless >>you've driven race cars- unless Stirling Moss and Jacques Villeneuve >>are lurking, most comments are conjecture, nothing more. A lot of >>people seem to think that the harder it is, the more accurate it is. ><snip> >>(soapbox off....) ><snip> >>Jeff >Jeff, >I would really like to see how many people commenting on the GPL >driving model were even old enough to know what those cars looked like >let alone ever driven one. I have to rely on my father's impression >and feedback, since I was only 4 years old in 1967. :) >I would never presume to comment on any driving model since I've never >stepped into a real F1, CART Champ, or NASCAR racing machine (unless >it was standing still and in a museum or expo), but nevertheless I am >eager to read the comments from "real racers." ***y-bop sim bashers >should stick to playing Mario on their Nintendo's and clear up some of >the space in this newsgroup. ><my soapbox now turned off> >Kyle

> Why do I get the feeling that if someone like Greg Moore was asked if > weather should be in this sim, he would say, "sure, put rain in the game and > make it slippery". > Dave But would that opinion remain if he realized he'd have to go out in a hard-tired, no-downforce car? -- Chuck Kandler #70 K&S Racing Need for Speed Racing http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Speedway/3794 Indycar driver, Craftsman truck driver, Virtual airline pilot, Flight Simulator scenery designer, Webmaster, Auto technician, father & husband....Who has time?

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> On Wed, 08 Apr 1998 16:00:18 GMT, > > Let me make one point- before casting stones about 'driving > >models' and such, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT about 'realistic models' unless > >you've driven race cars- unless Stirling Moss and Jacques Villeneuve > >are lurking, most comments are conjecture, nothing more. > Remember that a lot of people here _have_ actually driven real cars > (still do in some cases, and to surprisingly high levels). Many people > really are qualified to have that opinion, and in any case the vast > majority have driven a road car and know how a car actually responds > to given inputs. The cars in F1RS and GPL should respond in the same > manner given appropriate consideration for the effects of the wings > etc.

The problem with people with road car experience, is that experience generally bears no relation to at-the-limit (inclement weather excepted) performance. People toodle along, rarely exceeding 0.25 G laterally or 0.50 G longitudenly. Here's some good road car "experience" for average folks: Road car not turning tight enough? Dial in more lock! Sliding to the outside of a turn? Dial in more lock and stab the brakes! Not slowing fast enough? More brakes! Lane change? Ease the wheel over a hair's breath; you've got 10-15 seconds to complete the maneuver. Oversteering? (Never mind how F*(*ing hard it is to get a stock road car to oversteer :-) ) Relax, neutral throttle, no brakes, look where you want to go, and let the front wheels rotate automagically to correct the slide. People drive road cars, thinking they're making good time when they double the posted on-ramp speed, and suddenly a racing sim that isn't butt-easy the first time out is "'obviously wrong' if such a budding Juan-Manual-Fangio as myself can't drive it at speed in the first 10 minutes." :-) Tossing a road car safely about on public roads teaches you relatively little about racing dynamics. (And if you try to learn racing on the public roads, you deserve to be condemned to drive slushbox Yugos and Trabants exclusively until the end of your days!!!) ---Jim

I would imagine a number of enthusiasts on this group (myself included!) here in the UK old enough to have driven in the late 70s early 80s would have driven competitively on public roads - it was called road rallying. Ask Gwyndaf Evans (rally driver) if he learnt little from those days!