GPL has a clutch!

When GP2 came out I made a steering wheel controller and pedals with an analog clutch. I know the sim drives fine without a clutch, but I think it adds to the realistic feel of driving and great for at the start of a race and recovering from a spin. I have been disappointed that no other racing sims have a clutch. It seems that the game makers don't bother with a clutch because the controllers don't come with a clutch, and the controller makers don't bother because the games are not programmed for a clutch. When I first started the GPL demo it gave me the calibration menu and I was pleased to see the calibration values that you don't get in the W95 joystick setup menu. I then went to the control assignment menu and saw a selection for a clutch! I knew right then that GPL is a real racing simulator and not just another driving game. However I haven't seen anything in the demo for force feedback support. I guess it would be asking for too much for a force feedback steering controller with a clutch. Now if only they made a shift controller that worked in an "H" pattern to simulate the shifting in these older cars. Good racing and keep the silver side down. :-) D Sport Racer #74

Lutrell, Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we already have an analog clutch built into the TSW and TSW 2 model, you can even get a genuine Momo racing wheel and Momo pedal pads in two different types :). Trev

Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? All sims I know use two buttons for shifting, one for up, one for down. You would have to have at least six, better seven buttons (no, make that eight for six forward gears, one reverse, and one neutral) *and* software support for this. Am I overlooking something? -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

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> I then went to the > control assignment menu and saw a selection for a clutch! > I knew right then that GPL is a real racing simulator and not > just another driving game. > However I haven't seen anything in the demo for force feedback > support. I guess it would be asking for too much for a force > feedback steering controller with a clutch. > Now if only they made a shift controller that worked in an "H" > pattern to simulate the shifting in these older cars. > Good racing and keep the silver side down. :-) > D Sport Racer #74

It really is about time we started seeing more sims with an option for a clutch. Thank you Papyrus!! Now, who out there can guide me to some instructions on how to add a clutch pedal into the extra slot on my T2 pedals? (I've seen this somewhere in the past) I know this cannnot be hard but I need sources for parts and a new wiring diagram. Anyone? Also, what is up with all the new Force-feedback controllers that were due out a few months ago? Has the bullshit lawsuit been settled? If GPL doesn't come with FFBack support it will be a crime! I mean if any sim was meant for Force Feeed-back, this is it! Chris

> >Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we > Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? Wolfgang, Papyrus has contacted us in regard to developing the H pattern shifter, I would assume that they intend to program it into future sims. We should know more soon. Trev

% It really is about time we started seeing more sims with an option for % a clutch. Thank you Papyrus!! Now, who out there can guide me to some % instructions on how to add a clutch pedal into the extra slot on my T2 % pedals? (I've seen this somewhere in the past) I know this cannnot be % hard but I need sources for parts and a new wiring diagram. Anyone? % Also, what is up with all the new Force-feedback controllers that were % due out a few months ago? Has the bullshit lawsuit been settled? If % GPL doesn't come with FFBack support it will be a crime! I mean if any % sim was meant for Force Feeed-back, this is it! Hmmmmmm... Thrustmaster is promising some hot new wheel/pedal units this summer.... Wonder if it will come with a clutch. I know that they keep their eyes on what's coming out of Papy's farm. Speaking of this, both Thrustmaster and Papyrus seem to be holding back on Force Feedback. Both feel that there isn't enough in the package yet to warrant much use other than "hand candy" (you know the kind that melts in your hands). I think both companies want to do FF real bad, but both want to do it right and for the right reasons. Papy has already publicly stated that there just isn't enough in the current FF package to warrant implementing it for GPL. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Finally, someone wrote what I've been thinking all along! These were seat-of-the-pants racecars. You need some sort of "feel" to let you know when the rear is about to step out. I find in GPL that by the time I visually see that the car is too loose, it's already too late! Maybe there will be a bit more tire squeal in the final version as the car reaches the limit. Practice, practice and more practice.... The sound is beginning to grow on me! It sounds like the old Formula 5000 cars from the early '70's. Actually , the F5000 car was a direct decendent of the '60's GP car, just add slicks, wings and about 5 more years of development, and you have a Lola T 160. I know the sound will change for the real deal but I may hang onto the demo just for fun!. Don

>seat-of-the-pants racecars. You need some sort of "feel" to let you know when >the rear is about to step out. I find in GPL that by the time I visually see >that the car is too loose, it's already too late! I disagree. GPL is the FIRST sim I've ever played that has the visual feedback needed. I can tell just when it's about to give - that's amazing programming, unprecedented even! Joe

Trevor C Thomas wrote : Trevor... I would assume this. Correct me if wrong. Let's think your in first. Wheel understands your in first. If you go down a gear, programs go in neutral (or reverse depending on the game). Same thing if you upshift in second. Pretty simple. For multiple shifts (like going from sixth to reverse). Well that's the tricky part. Maybe have the wheel understands that if your in sixth and you go in reverse, it's like downshifting 6time (or 7depending on the game). So would need an actual memory within the wheel, knowing each pattern (6-1 = 5downshifts, 6-2 = 4dshifts, N-4 = 4upshifts). Am I at least a little bit on the track ? Whoa can we say you'll need a USB port for the wheel ? Hope you bring this to life, I'm working hell to buy a TSW2 (heard some good news on the T.g.s.n. newsgroup). Fran?ois Mnard <ymenard> Sponsored by http://www.awpss.com/ Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) Excuse me for being provocative (I'm dumb speaking) --"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realise how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."--

: >Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we : Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? All sims : I know use two buttons for shifting, one for up, one for down. : Am I overlooking something? Yes. It is possible to make it work for current s/w. You seem to think that it would only be buttons. This would be difficult. It would require some sort of decoding circuitry to allow the thing to know: a) Which gear is currently selected b) Which direction you are trying to shift (ie up or down) c) If you have skipped a gear or are in reverse d) Send the proper amount of button pushes to the computer to emulate a H-pattern shifter -- -------------------------------------

>> Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? >Wolfgang, Papyrus has contacted us in regard to developing the H pattern >shifter, I would assume that they intend to program it into future sims. We >should know more soon. Hey, Trevor, that's great news! :) Not that I'll be able to afford your fine products anytime soon, but I love the idea that this type of shifter could become a reality of sim driving. BTW, isn't it funny how much more complicated it is to simulate old-fashioned low tech than state-of-the-art high tech. A sequential gearbox is trivial, an H pattern shifter is a lot more complicated. How are you approaching the problem? Will you use switches or joystick axes? If one coupled an H pattern grate to a joystick, one could read out the relative values of the X and Y axis and so determine what gear the shifter is in. This would have the benefit of having a four, five, or six speed box by just exchanging the grate and recalibrating the shifter. But then, one could quickly run out of analog axes. (One for steering, *at least* one for braking/accelerating, one for the clutch, hmmm...) Maybe a combination of one axis and two switches... Can you comment on this, or is it a business secret? :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

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>Yes. It is possible to make it work for current s/w. You seem to think >that it would only be buttons. This would be difficult. It would require >some sort of decoding circuitry to allow the thing to know: >a) Which gear is currently selected >b) Which direction you are trying to shift (ie up or down) >c) If you have skipped a gear or are in reverse >d) Send the proper amount of button pushes to the computer to emulate a > H-pattern shifter

That would still be a kludge, since you are downshifting 5-4-3-2 (including all steps in between) whereas I am looping straight 5-2. Since braking effects from gearbox and engine are modelled this will have a big difference (as will lifting the clutch too soon in second!). An "H" shift done like that would be nice from the point of view of atmosphere, but to work properly it would need to be supported in software so the sim would shift straight to your chosen gear. Also, I guess the TSW model is based upon NASCAR with an H? How then will it support neutral and reverse, and what happens when it is confronted with the BRM's 6 forward, one reverse plus neutral? Cheers! John

What would be the expected price of the system? I definately be interested in this product, as long as it wasn't $800+. matt

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> > and the controller makers don't bother because the > > games are not programmed for a clutch. > > Now if only they made a shift controller that worked in an "H" > > pattern to simulate the shifting in these older cars. > Lutrell, > Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we > already have an analog clutch built into the TSW and TSW 2 model, you can > even get a genuine Momo racing wheel and Momo pedal pads in two different > types :). > Trev

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>: >Thomas Enterprises is working on a H pattern shifter right now and we >: Great, but what software is going to support such a shifter? All sims >: I know use two buttons for shifting, one for up, one for down. >: Am I overlooking something? >Yes. It is possible to make it work for current s/w. You seem to think >that it would only be buttons. This would be difficult. It would require >some sort of decoding circuitry to allow the thing to know: >a) Which gear is currently selected >b) Which direction you are trying to shift (ie up or down) >c) If you have skipped a gear or are in reverse >d) Send the proper amount of button pushes to the computer to emulate a > H-pattern shifter

You mean like this: - Sim starts, shifter is in neutral position. - I select first gear, shifter interprets: "we were in neutral, now we go into 1st" and sends one "gear up" signal to the sim. - I shift up to 2nd, shifter interprets: "we were in 1st, now we go into 2nd" and sends one "gear up" signal to the sim. - I skip 3rd and go directly into 4th (for whatever reason), shifter interprets: "we were in 2nd, now we go into 4th" and sends *two* "gear up" signal to the sim. - I miss the braking point and end up facing some straw bale :) I go into reverse, shifter interprets: "we were in 4th, now we go into reverse" and sends five "gear down" signal to the sim. Right? I didn't think of it, but now it seems very reasonable. A setup like this would be the closest approximation to the "real thing" we could get with the current software. Can these things be bought somewhere already? I just 'invented' a different design that would come even closer to reality, I think, but need collaboration from games designers. The valuable resources this system would need are one joystick axis and two joystick buttons (or two axes and no buttons, but axes are in shorter supply). It would work like this: Imagine a box with a five or six speed grate (or is it gate?) The shifter is mounted to a joystick axis. If the shifter is pulled all the way to the left, the axis reads zero, all the way to the right would be, say, 300. In addition, if the shifter is pushed to the front (gears R,1,3,5), button one is depressed. If pulled back (gears 2,4,6), button two is pressed. A polling routine could now determine the gear by reading the value of the joystick axis and the button. A reading of "approximately 200 and button 1" would be 3rd gear, "300 and 2" 6th etc. Any axis value and *no* button would mean neutral, and this would be the one great advantage. Being able to shift into reverse *immediately* would be the other. The polling routine could read out the values for the shifter much less frequently than those for steering and braking, so the additional workload for the sim would be insignificant. The shifter unit wouldn't need extra electronics or a separate power supply. So I am a genius after all. Show me the way to the patent office! Just kidding. :) -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. Uni des Saarlands \ and U.S. law. You have been warned.

> >a) Which gear is currently selected > >b) Which direction you are trying to shift (ie up or down) > >c) If you have skipped a gear or are in reverse > >d) Send the proper amount of button pushes to the computer to emulate a > > H-pattern shifter hmmm i think that would be OK for making a H-type shifter that is compatable with current games, but for more realism we'd want it to just jump straight to the gear we want and yes, that'd involve convincing/bribing/threatening game designers to support what ever new tehcnique controller designers come up with:) that was an interesting idae:) but it uses a joystick axis... which i don't htink is a good idea, because the joystick port can only support 4 axiis and 4 buttons, and we'd want one axis for steering, one for accelerating, one for braking, and one for the clutch. Now, my idea (gee, we're all inventors in this thread aren't we?) is to use a binary combination of 3 of the buttons to indicate what the gear selector is up to: buttons function 1 2 3 x x x neutral o x x 1st x o x 2nd o o x 3rd x x o 4th o x o 5th x o o 6th o o o reverse and that leaves button 4 for whatever we want - like the good old middle finger salute or the horn or windscreen wipers or something:) Grant. (inventor for a day)

The keypad "del" key acts as a clutch. -- John Twitchell >When GP2 came out I made a steering wheel controller >and pedals with an analog clutch. I know the sim drives >fine without a clutch, but I think it adds to the realistic feel >of driving and great for at the start of a race and recovering >from a spin. I have been disappointed that no other racing >sims have a clutch. It seems that the game makers don't >bother with a clutch because the controllers don't come with >a clutch, and the controller makers don't bother because the >games are not programmed for a clutch. >When I first started the GPL demo it gave me the calibration >menu and I was pleased to see the calibration values that you >don't get in the W95 joystick setup menu. I then went to the >control assignment menu and saw a selection for a clutch! >I knew right then that GPL is a real racing simulator and not >just another driving game. >However I haven't seen anything in the demo for force feedback >support. I guess it would be asking for too much for a force >feedback steering controller with a clutch. >Now if only they made a shift controller that worked in an "H" >pattern to simulate the shifting in these older cars. >Good racing and keep the silver side down. :-) >D Sport Racer #74