F1 AI, and sense of speed

I wanted to repost the following because these are issues I'd really like to get some feedback on (the AI and sense of speed). These issues got lost in a thread which turned into a CPR vs F1 debate, unfortunately (sim passion). :) I've said earlier that I do like F1 a lot, as well as CPR. I don't feel the AI in CPR is as big an issue as some say, or such a plus in F1, for the following reasons. I don't know about how some of you compare to the AI in F1, but it's not that hard to beat. Most AI in the sims I've tried aren't very hard to defeat with just a normal amount of practice. I don't claim to be the best driver around either. I can name a half dozen drivers at the Zone who can beat me probably 9 out of 10 times. I'm sure they can/have easily beaten the AI in most of the well known sims. Racing sims have a few more years to go before ANYONE can claim great AI IMO. It's just not possible, yet. That's why the multi-player option is so important for many serious sim drivers. Car physics, track detail, graphics, sound, setups, and the overall feel of the game are more important to me than AI. I want to feel like I'm driving a CART car, and CPR does an excellent job of this. The main problems I have with F1 are the lack of an easy, well working multi play option, and the sense of speed is just not there. It feels like I'm going slow which makes it seem too easy. CPR definitely has a better, more realistic sense of speed. Significantly better. After getting burnt out on the available sims last year, I tried and got hooked on POD (the base which F1 was built on) and F1 feels like POD with Formula 1 cars. I've never driven an F1 or Champ car, but I'd guess that I would feel a little scared of the speed and power that comes with these cars, and in F1, that fear is missing. Dave

I think the lack of a sense of speed in F1RS is there on the really fast tracks like Monza because there are very few objects close to the edge of the track to give a visual reference to. For myself, when I am racing at Monaco I really feel like I am flying at some points on the track, even though the speeds are nothing compared to what you run at Monza. In particular, the straightway from *** Square down to the Mirabeau corner seems very fast and is quite a thrill. Patrick Gilmore

practice. Make sure you are running in "expert" mode with all driving aids turned off. The F1RS AI are faster and more aggressive as you raise the mode. They are FAR superior to the CPR AI. If you get so good that you can beat them in full races, you can try two other options. First, the bhp of the various cars are accurately modeled, so try running one of the cars from a slower team. Second, there is a utility which lets you increase the bhp of the AI cars. Also, it is tougher to beat the AI when you run a long race and mistakes on your part begin to take a major toll. F1RS AI is pretty good. They don't really seem computer generated to me. I agree that you can't beat human competition, but the AI are good to race against if you want to race against a full field of cars. I would agree that CPR has a better sense of speed. I think it has to do with the textures in the track. You can really see it go by you better than in F1RS. Unfortunately, I had to turn too much detail off in CPR, so the "track atmosphere" wasn't there. -- Kevin (Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

On Wed, 1 Apr 1998 13:45:52 -0500, "David G Fisher"

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>with F1 are the lack of an easy, well working multi play option, and the >sense of speed is just not there. It feels like I'm going >slow which makes it seem too easy. CPR definitely has a better, more >realistic sense of >speed. Significantly better. After getting burnt out on the available sims >last year, I tried and got hooked on POD (the base which F1 was built on) >and F1 feels like POD with Formula 1 cars. I've never driven >an F1 or Champ car, but I'd guess that I would feel a little scared of the >speed and power that comes with these cars, and in F1, that fear is missing. >Dave

FWIW, I switched from a 15" to a 19" monitor, the 'sensation of speed' is much higher. I don't get a sensation of speed at all watching in-car shots during a race either. Then again, I think that if you're concentrating HARD, you don't feel that anyway. I can't tell you how easy it is to 'slow down' a twisty track when I am karting, but trust me, the more you do it, the more you get used to it. It really doesn't seem THAT fast. I remember when I first played F1RS at Spa, the 'back nine' really flew (I forget the name of that part, and the $%*^$#*& manual doesn't have it either!) and the speed-sensation was incredible. Now it seems dead slow. Trust me, you've probably gotten velocitized, is all. Jeff

I too like F1RS a lot and I really wanted to like CPR but the AI were so terrible, for me anyway, that I removed it from my machine. I saw in an earlier post where you said that the primary problems with the AI were found on the ovals and that on road courses and street courses the AI behaved much better. I can't comment on the ovals, don't have any use for them, but on the one road course that I did try extensively, Laguna Seca, they were intolerable. It's been quite a while since I've played it but my primary gripe as I remembered it was that they seemed to take the "slow in-fast out" concept to the extreme, braking way, way, way, too early and entering the corner way too slow. In fact, if my memory serves me correctly they were braking in the middle of that slight left hand bend on the front straight which drove me absolutely insane and then again in the middle of the short straight before the first left hander that starts the climb up to the corkscrew. That, my friend, is***poor AI. By comparison the AI in F1RS doesn't do anything amazingly stupid like in CPR except maybe at a couple of tracks, Nurburgring and Monza come to mind, where they slow down a bit too much in one section of the track. But like you said the perfect AI doesn't exist. Also, the AI in CPR are terribly slow. I remember racing from the rear at Laguna Seca at the highest level and going from worst to first in very short order. In F1RS, OTOH, I can also blow away the AI at the highest level but, and to me this is one of the great features of F1RS, if I really want a tough race I can drive a Forti and fight to even finish in the points and rarely win which is way more fun for me than blowing away the AI, or hotlapping, or racing a one or two player race on Kali or the zone which is really nothing more than hotlapping with a friend. When we can race full human fields across the net then that will be racing until then just give me decent AI and a method to make it challenging. BTW, I do agree that as far as "feel", or what I perceive to be proper feel having never driven a real race car but having driven a performance minded automobile, goes CPR has them all beat hands down. But, in my sometimes not so humble opinion CPR is the greatest racing sim that never was because it's absolutely useless for racing.

I have to agree with the "velocitized" theory... I'll probably pickup F1RS tomorrow at long last!, and I'd like to compare the sensation of timing with GP2. but I'd have to agree... when I first took my Honda CBR600F3 out to the racetrack, I thought things happened so fast. Once I got experienced, things seem like they slow down because I have mental reference points on the track which I use to do my timing. I stopped paying attention to the things that overwhelm you with a sense of speed (like road texture!) Not a race car driver, but the bike is claimed to do 0-60 in 3.6s, quarter mile in 11.4... not slow. I don't think I was maxing the bike out on the track (for sure), but the clock showed 110mph coming over the hill on the front straight, before you brake and shift down 4 gears for a left hander... fun fun. can't wait for f1rs...

Your right in your comparison between the two tracks. Also, the section of track you described is a thrill. Most of the tracks do not have the roadside objects right up against the road like Monaco so, unfortunately, I have that slow feeling in most races. Dave

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>I think the lack of a sense of speed in F1RS is there on the really fast >tracks like Monza because there are very few objects close to the edge of >the track to give a visual reference to. For myself, when I am racing at >Monaco I really feel like I am flying at some points on the track, even >though the speeds are nothing compared to what you run at Monza. In >particular, the straightway from *** Square down to the Mirabeau corner >seems very fast and is quite a thrill. >Patrick Gilmore

>Make sure you are running in "expert" mode with all driving aids turned off. >The F1RS AI are faster and more aggressive as you raise the mode. They are >FAR superior to the CPR AI. I am in expert mode with all options off. The handling seems a little too easy as well. Even with default setups. But that's another issue. I'm getting hit an awful lot by the AI so I can't agree that they are far superior to CPR. I don't hear many with the same observation so I'm a little confused. Using a different car is a good idea (I love Ferraris), :) but I could do the same in CPR. Running a full race in CPR is a more difficult win too, especially if I turn "race car performance" on and use a slower car. I can leave almost all options on in CPR, except full mirrors, I have it set to "cars only". Even on large, open, ovals like Michigan, I get the sense of real speed. I've had CPR since late October and tracks like Elkhart and Australia are still a blast. Dave

>FWIW, I switched from a 15" to a 19" monitor, the 'sensation of speed' >is much higher. I don't get a sensation of speed at all watching >in-car shots during a race either. What I'm planning on doing is getting a Canopus V2 card so I can play the sims on the TV. Hopefully, the graphics will still look good on a TV screen. Everything you say makes sense and is definitely true as far as the ability to get used to speed. I sometimes ride motocross motorcycles, and I quickly got used to it too. I have had CPR since October, and the feeling of speed is still there. It's just F1 that seems slow. Maybe if I had never spent much time with CPR, I wouldn't feel the same. Other CPR drivers say virtually the same thing regarding F1. I'll put it this way, if I'm driving 210mph in F1, it feels about the same as going 160mph in CPR. I just finished beta testing a new racing game from MS, and even though the mph's are much slower than what you do in F1, the overall feeling of the game seems much faster. It is the graphics engine that is the cause of this. I wish a game designer could explain this in detail. Dave

>BTW, I do agree that as far as "feel", or what I perceive to be proper feel >having never driven a real race car but having driven a performance minded >automobile, goes CPR has them all beat hands down. But, in my sometimes not >so humble opinion CPR is the greatest racing sim that never was because it's >absolutely useless for racing. It seems that some people just prefer the ability to have a good race against AI. I like to have the feeling of driving a real car, at real speeds (of course I've never driven an F1 or Champ car, so what do I know about how they really feel?) and CPR does a great job of that for me. The feeling of speed in F1 hopefull won't be a problem for me, but if I get even more used to the sim, and the speed slows even more, then I'm in trouble. I posted news about a CPR patch/expansion pack last night night so improvements may be on the way. I'll keep racing both sims. F1 and CART are not the same series. Why not have two different sims then? I get more tracks, cars, and drivers. Neither perfect but still great fun for me. Dave

>Not a race car driver, but the bike is claimed to do 0-60 in 3.6s, quarter >mile in 11.4... not slow. I don't think I was maxing the bike out on the >track (for sure), but the clock showed 110mph coming over the hill on the >front straight, before you brake and shift down 4 gears for a left >hander... fun fun. >can't wait for f1rs... I ride motocross bikes occasionally, and the speed you feel on a motorcycle can't be beat. First, like you said, some motorcycles are incredibly fast compared to cars. And, because of being on two wheels, and not surrounded by the body of a car, the speed feels even more intense. Only one major problem with bikes, if you crash......

That's the funny thing I've noticed about people complaining about F1RS AI: some complain the computer drivers hit you all the time, some complain they avoid you like a plague. ;-) I find the F1RS AI very good. Unless I do something very stupid like hitting the brakes full from full speed as there is someone close behind, they seem to be very good at passing you without touching, even by going off the track a little if necessary. Of course this cannot happen in Monaco due to the concrete walls, so there I see more pushing by the computer drivers than on the other tracks. I play in the expert level of course. *** http://www.netlife.fi/users/ttammi/

The default setups have high wing settings, so the cars may seem easy to drive, but a little slow around the track. On expert level, the AI don't move out of the way unless you make a solid pass. Also, they tend to try to avoid collisions if you do something stupid. The only time that I get hit by the AI is when it is my mistake, so I find it very suprising that you get hit an awful lot by the AI. I found the difference between the AI in CPR and F1RS to be HUGE. Most people agree with this. I think the Ferraris, Williams, and Benettons are all fast. You may want to try some of the teams that didn't rack up many points. You must have a very fast system if you have the draw distance at maximum and trackside objects turned on. CPR may have the advantage in sense of speed, but what it is truely horrible at is visibility down the track. Put someone on the computer that has never driven a racing sim and they will weave down the track back and forth slowly. F1RS has MUCH better visibility down the track. You can go fairly fast the first time you race on a track because you can see the turns. -- Kevin (Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

A little history first...I'm fairly new to computer ***, about a year or more. I started out with ICR2( big open wheel fan ), and loved it. I was the first one to by CPR from my local EB, just based on the hype in the press...can you say "sucker"!!!.. and as many others, I was rather dissapointed. I worked with it for a couple of months, until I found this newsgroup and GP2, and then F1RS, and haven't missed CPR one bit, except that I really like CART and want to be able to run my home tracks! Earlier this week, because of some of the recent postings here, because of the "new" 3DFX patch and because I'm headed out to Long Beach tomorrow, I thought I'd load up CPR again, with the latest patch and the glide dll file, download a couple of setups from the APEX and give it another chance. It still sucks. I can't really say anything good about it. The graphics at The Beach are a joke ( I've been to every race at Long Beach as a worker and photographer, I know it well ), but that doesn't really affect gameplay much And what's with the all white Penske cars? They look like ghosts. The AI is just as bad as I recall, the lot of them would be more suited to a destruction derby! I could spend an entire day, actually I have, just trying to tweak the steering! I could go on, but why? Those who like CPR, well, more power to you, I for one have wasted all the time I can on the game and hope that someone, somewhere is working on ICR3. AL JR. number 1 at The Beach!!! don

I wish I was going to be at LB. Lucky guy. I can do a 51 sec lap at LB in CPR. The setup I made has the car running smooth as silk. Racing around that track is exciting, and a challenge for me. When I race some of the top guys at the Zone, it's a real adrenaline rush. Just shows how two people can have completely different experiences with the same sim. Dave

I'll give TOCA a try. That game we just finished testing is pretty fun to play too, huh? :) Dave

try TOCA if you want some real sense of speed (try Oulton Park as i think it's the best). ok...the AI is all that good though... and yes i also hear someone saying TOCA isn't a sim... BUT it is fun to *play* and the sensation of speed is GREAT even on my P166MMX (oc to 208) with Stealth II & 32MB ram with highest graphic setting!