One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that TOCA
Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a
jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree. I have played a lot of racing
games in the past and none has ever hooked me or even made me want to go
out and buy a steering wheel... until TOCA!
This is a superb game. You want realism? From the track I can see exactly
where I sat last time I went to Brands Hatch. The detail of the circuits is
truly incredible. OK, not so interesting to American race fans who will
never visit the tracks, but a great experience for the British enthusiast.
And have you ever seen such perfect simulation of bumpiness - both of the
tarmac, occasionally throwing you off, and the grass beside the track.
Fantastic as the car scrabbles for grip on full throttle as you power out
of a hairpin or regain the track after an off. Listen to the revs rise and
fall as it fights to get a grip. Also, when the car snaps sideways, as it
often does if you overdo it on the entry, you actually CAN catch it, and it
feels just great to wind on the opposite lock in a flash and almost feel
the car respond and straighten. Of course, this loses you a lot of time if
you do it in qualifying, as it should, but its sooo satisfying in a race.
And what about the sound? Incredible engine noise plus the whine of
straight cut gears, the bump of the rumble strip and the rattle of stones
in the arches. Also, take a look at the other cars, and notice that the
wheel angles are perfect as they corner. These aren't shoe boxes you're
racing, but real , realistic, cars. What's more, they go off, and if you
watch, they have superb AI as they regain the track, tyres smoking, in
either forward or reverse.
A lot has been said about the handling model, and in particular that you
lose the back end if you go in on full gas, as you would a rear wheel drive
car, whereas the cars simulated are supposed to be front wheel drive.
However, for all I know, the specialised suspension of a touring car might
make this behaviour also true of a front wheel drive car, as its front
wheels drag it through the corner. And also, bear in mind that if you throw
the car into a corner too fast on a trailing throttle the back end will
snap out just as easily.
Is it fun? Of course it is. Remember, the guys that write these programs
have got to make money, and if the game is just too inaccessible it gets a
bad review and nobody buys it. It takes a long long time to get into F1RS,
and I think this puts off Joe Public. If you don't think TOCA is fun for
the hardened fan (and I am one) as well as the arcade kids, then just
approach the final hairpin at Knockhill flat in sixth. Slam on the anchors
at the hundred yard board and flick the car from side to side like a rally
car as it slows, then floor the gas pedal as you see the apex (you're
sideways) and hurtle off along the start/finish straight for a 45 second
lap. THAT is fun!
PS I don't work for Codemasters, and I don't know anyone who does!
To each his own.
How many touring cars have you seen that drive like rally cars? Most
tourers go forwards through corners/chicanes, not sideways.
--
Spudgun
Quoted text (8 lines)
> One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that > TOCA > Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a > jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree. I have played a lot of > racing > games in the past and none has ever hooked me or even made me want to > go > out and buy a steering wheel... until TOCA!Well, I'm a racing fan from California who, indeed, will probably never get to
see these tracks, which is WHY I bought TOCA. I know most of the North American
tracks and the major European tracks from ICR2, GP2 and F1RS, but not many sims
model the smaller or lesser known circuit, those we've read about for years but
have only seen photos of; Oulton Park, Snetterton and Brands Hatch, and a
couple I'd never heard of, Croft and Knockhill. I love it! More tracks to race
on! Besides the fact that I will never find a Volvo to race in any other
game<G>.
Don
>One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that TOCA
>Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a
>jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree.
<big snip>
Its an arcade game, a good one, but thats all.
Even 4 wd cars have weight displacement when cornering, Nothing on this
earth can turn a corner like the cars in TOCA.
Quoted text (85 lines)
> One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that T > OCA > Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a > jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree. I have played a lot of > racing > games in the past and none has ever hooked me or even made me want t > o go > out and buy a steering wheel... until TOCA! > This is a superb game. You want realism? From the track I can see ex > actly > where I sat last time I went to Brands Hatch. The detail of the circ > uits is > truly incredible. OK, not so interesting to American race fans who w > ill > never visit the tracks, but a great experience for the British enthu > siast. > And have you ever seen such perfect simulation of bumpiness - both o > f the > tarmac, occasionally throwing you off, and the grass beside the trac > k. > Fantastic as the car scrabbles for grip on full throttle as you powe > r out > of a hairpin or regain the track after an off. Listen to the revs ri > se and > fall as it fights to get a grip. Also, when the car snaps sideways, > as it > often does if you overdo it on the entry, you actually CAN catch it, > and it > feels just great to wind on the opposite lock in a flash and almost > feel > the car respond and straighten. Of course, this loses you a lot of t > ime if > you do it in qualifying, as it should, but its sooo satisfying in a > race. > And what about the sound? Incredible engine noise plus the whine of > straight cut gears, the bump of the rumble strip and the rattle of s > tones > in the arches. Also, take a look at the other cars, and notice that > the > wheel angles are perfect as they corner. These aren't shoe boxes you > 're > racing, but real , realistic, cars. What's more, they go off, and if > you > watch, they have superb AI as they regain the track, tyres smoking, > in > either forward or reverse. > A lot has been said about the handling model, and in particular that > you > lose the back end if you go in on full gas, as you would a rear whee > l drive > car, whereas the cars simulated are supposed to be front wheel drive > . > However, for all I know, the specialised suspension of a touring car > might > make this behaviour also true of a front wheel drive car, as its fro > nt > wheels drag it through the corner. And also, bear in mind that if yo > u throw > the car into a corner too fast on a trailing throttle the back end w > ill > snap out just as easily. > Is it fun? Of course it is. Remember, the guys that write these prog > rams > have got to make money, and if the game is just too inaccessible it > gets a > bad review and nobody buys it. It takes a long long time to get into > F1RS, > and I think this puts off Joe Public. If you don't think TOCA is fun > for > the hardened fan (and I am one) as well as the arcade kids, then jus > t > approach the final hairpin at Knockhill flat in sixth. Slam on the a > nchors > at the hundred yard board and flick the car from side to side like a > rally > car as it slows, then floor the gas pedal as you see the apex (you'r > e > sideways) and hurtle off along the start/finish straight for a 45 se > cond > lap. THAT is fun! > PS I don't work for Codemasters, and I don't know anyone who does!>One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that TOCA
>Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a
>jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree.
I like TOCA, but I don't regard it as a true sim mainly because the
cars are unbreakable. After crashing head-on to another car at full
speed, I can still continue the race like nothing happened. ;-)
***
http://www.netlife.fi/users/ttammi/
I know... but it's fun
Paul M>
I would suggest looking at Speedvision sometime, I think the TOCA season
starts April 18th. The speed and handling of these front, rear and all wheel
drive cars has got to be seen to be believed! Absolutely amazing grip! There
are definitely more in depth "racing games" out there, but very few that
model car dynamics like TOCA.
If Codemasters had put in a garage with chassis adjustments like GP1 and F1RS
the "hard core" sim racers would be happy. "To each his own".
Have fun :)
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that TOCA > >Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a > >jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree. > <big snip> > Its an arcade game, a good one, but thats all. > Even 4 wd cars have weight displacement when cornering, Nothing on this > earth can turn a corner like the cars in TOCA.>I have to agree with you, I prefer *sims* to arcade games, and
>personally I think TOCA is somewhere in between, as it handles like a
>sim, but does not have the set-up options of a real sim?
Once again, the r.a.s refrain of "what's a sim" is brought up. I've
said it a thousand times and what the heck, I'll say it again...these
things aren't boolean values. Its not a light switch where you flip
it from arcade to sim and back to arcade. Its a realism scale.
Arcade games like Sega Daytona are farther to the low end of the scale
and sims like NASCAR 2 and F1RS are towards the right. There are a
fair number of games that sit somewhere in the middle. So far I've
heard that TOCA isn't a sim but an arcade game because there are no
setup options, because there is no damage, etc. I agree that those
are factors in a decision, but I continue to urge posters to r.a.s.
not to try to do the simple-minded move of saying "not a sim...just an
arcade game" as if its a dirty word and nothing further need to be
said. The people at Codemasters obivously spent a great deal of time
trying to capture the feel, the tracks, and the environment of BTCC
cars. Obviously most people agree that in some areas they fell short
and perhaps there are a couple of areas in the physics model where
they just missed (or so we believe). So the needle isn't as far on
the scale as it might be for a Papyrus sim, for example.
But I submit that if we decided to pick and choose a 'vital' feature
of a sim and say that if it didn't do it right we'd say the whole game
wasn't a sim...well, we wouldn't have any sims. First, some people
have criticized CPR because you can't blow an engine by overrevving
it. Okay, neither can you do this with GP2 or F1RS -- guess those
two newsgroup darlings aren't sims anymore...Then the damage
model...okay, since many ICR2 leagues mandate arcade damage because of
some problems with AI cars, the damage isn't realistic anymore...toss
ICR2 out in most offline leagues. If you want to pick and choose any
one problem with a sim and toss the whole thing out the window as a
result, we have no sims left. And real NASCAR cars will catch air
and flip...guess NASCAR 2 is out, now too, huh? Some of you people
are so intolerant that you have a very selective viewpoint when it
comes to sims and if it doesn't fit YOUR idea of a sim in specific
areas you feel is important, then you sneer and say "its just an
arcade game" and feel like you've laid the definitive opinion down.
It would be far more constructive if you could say, "hey this thing
simulates X, Y and Z well, but they missed on A and B.." then people
could decide how important X, Y and Z were relative to the downside of
A and B not being right and make an informed decision. Even ABC's
Road to Indy racing...which has gotten trashed here quite a bit, does
model what happens when you jump out of the throttle when cornering at
the limit (you get trailing throttle oversteer). In the interview
with Papyrus on NASCAR 3, it was stated that the new physics model
would do that, because its something that doesn't really happen in
NASCAR 2 (i.e. if the car is pushing in NASCAR and you jump off the
throttle, you're generally not going to spin). While OT Sports might
have screwed up a lot of things with Indy Racing, they were a little
ahead of the competition in that area...Yet no one mentioned this in
favor of the ABC sim because they were too busy calling it an arcade
game. It would be constructive to point out that, hey, OT did this
right..I'd like to see it in more sims, even if we just can't live
with the poor AI and damage model in Indy Racing.
Just my 2 cents towards a more constructive newsgroup...Can we not get
away from just throwing "sim" and "arcade" around as if everyone
agrees what they are and instead focus on praising what's good and
criticizing what's bad about specific titles?
Randy
Quoted text (9 lines)
> >One or two people have posted in this newsgroup to the effect that TOCA > >Touring car racing is not a good simulation, and is no more than a > >jumped-up arcade title. Well, I don't agree. > <big snip> > Its an arcade game, a good one, but thats all. > Even 4 wd cars have weight displacement when cornering, Nothing on this > earth can turn a corner like the cars in TOCA.******BIG SNIP******
Erm, I thought thats what I was doing? If you actually read my post, I
was being very positive about TOCA (whether it is defined as a *sim*
or not). I too don't really wish to get into the "is it a sim or not?"
debate. But do wish to concentrate on whats good (or bad) about the
programs we discuss here.
I actually prefer the more *realistic* programs to the *arcade*
programs, based on what *I* think constitutes either one of those. I
think TOCA is neither an out an out arcade racer, but also it not an
out and out sim, but hey, who cares, I still like it!!!!
8?)
*Peter* 8-)
>Once again, the r.a.s refrain of "what's a sim" is brought up. I've
>said it a thousand times and what the heck, I'll say it again...these
>things aren't boolean values. Its not a light switch where you flip
>it from arcade to sim and back to arcade. Its a realism scale.
Yes it's a scale, and on any scale something can be defined as
"arcade" at one end, "sim" at the other and the grey area is in
between. Boolean values operate at either end, and I don't think I
could tell anyone else how to evaluate their scale.
TOCA is somewhere in the middle for me, but for others more diehard
than myself I guess it's arcade.
Cheers!
John
> Once again, the r.a.s refrain of "what's a sim" is brought up. I've
> said it a thousand times and what the heck, I'll say it again...these
> things aren't boolean values. Its not a light switch where you flip
> it from arcade to sim and back to arcade. Its a realism scale.
Excuse me for saying so, but will the world be any better if we deleted
the wordsarcade and sim from our dictionarys? I think you are
overreacting a bit....:)
Again, I think you are painting the words more black than they were...
They are trying to make money!(snipped to save bwidth)
Constructive criticism is what we all are after. If someone says
a.....hmm...
(browsing; game, sim, arcade game, computer game..no) program is bad or
good,
I think we all are grown-up enough to make our own decisions.
Matt,
TOCA fan.
--
Matthew Birger Knutsen
Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut)
"Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw"
-Cale Yarborough
>Excuse me for saying so, but will the world be any better if we deleted
>the wordsarcade and sim from our dictionarys?
Yeah it probably would, at least if it was here in this newsgroup!
A-R-C-A-D-E is a dirty word here, and people that use it know that
when they do its with a negative connotation. So if I really want to
slam something I don't like, it requires little imagination or
thought...just say its an arcade game...that puts all the people that
like it on the defensive immediately and you have a great recipe for a
flame war. Its just unproductive.
ya think?!
Randy
Randy Magruder
Contributing Reviewer
Digital Sportspage
[link lost in import]
Just to add my 2 cents worth--I agree with you completely, Randy. It is
much more helpful to know and discuss the good points and the shortfalls of
each title. They ALL have shortfalls and you are correct that even the
"bad" titles have a few good features that could improve some of the "good"
titles if they were incorporated.
Marc.
Quoted text (63 lines)
>>I have to agree with you, I prefer *sims* to arcade games, and >>personally I think TOCA is somewhere in between, as it handles like a >>sim, but does not have the set-up options of a real sim? >Once again, the r.a.s refrain of "what's a sim" is brought up. I've >said it a thousand times and what the heck, I'll say it again...these >things aren't boolean values. Its not a light switch where you flip >it from arcade to sim and back to arcade. Its a realism scale. >Arcade games like Sega Daytona are farther to the low end of the scale >and sims like NASCAR 2 and F1RS are towards the right. There are a >fair number of games that sit somewhere in the middle. So far I've >heard that TOCA isn't a sim but an arcade game because there are no >setup options, because there is no damage, etc. I agree that those >are factors in a decision, but I continue to urge posters to r.a.s. >not to try to do the simple-minded move of saying "not a sim...just an >arcade game" as if its a dirty word and nothing further need to be >said. The people at Codemasters obivously spent a great deal of time >trying to capture the feel, the tracks, and the environment of BTCC >cars. Obviously most people agree that in some areas they fell short >and perhaps there are a couple of areas in the physics model where >they just missed (or so we believe). So the needle isn't as far on >the scale as it might be for a Papyrus sim, for example. >But I submit that if we decided to pick and choose a 'vital' feature >of a sim and say that if it didn't do it right we'd say the whole game >wasn't a sim...well, we wouldn't have any sims. First, some people >have criticized CPR because you can't blow an engine by overrevving >it. Okay, neither can you do this with GP2 or F1RS -- guess those >two newsgroup darlings aren't sims anymore...Then the damage >model...okay, since many ICR2 leagues mandate arcade damage because of >some problems with AI cars, the damage isn't realistic anymore...toss >ICR2 out in most offline leagues. If you want to pick and choose any >one problem with a sim and toss the whole thing out the window as a >result, we have no sims left. And real NASCAR cars will catch air >and flip...guess NASCAR 2 is out, now too, huh? Some of you people >are so intolerant that you have a very selective viewpoint when it >comes to sims and if it doesn't fit YOUR idea of a sim in specific >areas you feel is important, then you sneer and say "its just an >arcade game" and feel like you've laid the definitive opinion down. >It would be far more constructive if you could say, "hey this thing >simulates X, Y and Z well, but they missed on A and B.." then people >could decide how important X, Y and Z were relative to the downside of >A and B not being right and make an informed decision. Even ABC's >Road to Indy racing...which has gotten trashed here quite a bit, does >model what happens when you jump out of the throttle when cornering at >the limit (you get trailing throttle oversteer). In the interview >with Papyrus on NASCAR 3, it was stated that the new physics model >would do that, because its something that doesn't really happen in >NASCAR 2 (i.e. if the car is pushing in NASCAR and you jump off the >throttle, you're generally not going to spin). While OT Sports might >have screwed up a lot of things with Indy Racing, they were a little >ahead of the competition in that area...Yet no one mentioned this in >favor of the ABC sim because they were too busy calling it an arcade >game. It would be constructive to point out that, hey, OT did this >right..I'd like to see it in more sims, even if we just can't live >with the poor AI and damage model in Indy Racing. >Just my 2 cents towards a more constructive newsgroup...Can we not get >away from just throwing "sim" and "arcade" around as if everyone >agrees what they are and instead focus on praising what's good and >criticizing what's bad about specific titles? >RandyI can vouch for the accuracy of Toca...having ridden my GSXR 750 at Brands
Hatch....
Snetterton.....and Oulton... the resemblence is amazing even down to the
bumps around
clearways at Brands hatch...this game is fantastic...if only codemasters
would now develop
a British superbike game!......
