N2: Physics from hell?

Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move weight forward and/or add spoiler. This makes sense; too much weight in the rear will cause the back of the car to almost break loose, so moving weight forward will take this away and more spoiler will help press the back of the car down against the track. HOWEVER, it also says that if the car is loose coming out of the corner, you should move weight _back_ and/or softening the rear shocks. HUH? If you move weight back it will increase traction on the rear tires, but won't this be outweighed by the excess weight? Won't softening rear shocks allow even more weight redistribute to the rear and loosen it up even more? This make no sense to me! Jp

first thing to do is forget how it feels entering and exiting the turn and concentrate on what it feels like in the middle of the turn. if it is loose move weight forward, pushes pull it back. How the car feels entering and exiting the turn is best adjusted with shocks, tire pressure and throttle control. > Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it >says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move weight >forward and/or add spoiler. Don't believe everything you read, I would look to adjust right side shocks and tire pressure. if you soften the right front it will allow more weight to transfer to the front when getting on the brakes. This makes sense; too much weight in the This is also where i get confused, what to adjust ? I think stiffening the right rear and softening the left front is the first step, try and keep some of that weight from transfering to the rear. HUH? If you move weight back it will increase traction I never look at manual any more there are better sources of info on setup, (no offense Steve V.)

Softening the shock/spring will dampen the weight transfer onto that wheel. Therefore, if you soften a wheel that is getting weight transferred to it - like the rear wheels when you hit the throttle - you will dampen the weight transfer onto the rear wheel. By slowing the transfer of weight - the wheel is less likely to lose grip and thereby slide. The bad news is the slower weight transfer can make the car seem unresponsive - so this is a delicate balance. /TomH

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> Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it > says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move weight > forward and/or add spoiler. This makes sense; too much weight in the > rear will cause the back of the car to almost break loose, so moving weight > forward will take this away and more spoiler will help press the back of the > car down against the track. HOWEVER, it also says that if the car is loose > coming out of the corner, you should move weight _back_ and/or softening > the rear shocks. HUH? If you move weight back it will increase traction > on the rear tires, but won't this be outweighed by the excess weight?

I've never tried moving weight back for a loose on exit condition. It doesn't sound like it would work though. No, tightening the rear shocks will increase weight transfer to the rear and loosen the car. Softening the rear shocks should definitely tighen the car. For a loose condition on exit, the best solution for me is to soften the Left Rear shock (and/or tire pressure). Tightening the Left Front shock or tire pressure has the same effect on exit. This is assuming you are on an oval of course. If you are turning right, the right side of the car controls handling on exit. -- Pat Dotson IMPACT Motorsports

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> Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it > says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move > weight > forward and/or add spoiler. This makes sense; too much weight in the > rear will cause the back of the car to almost break loose, so moving > weight > forward will take this away and more spoiler will help press the back > of the > car down against the track. HOWEVER, it also says that if the car is > loose > coming out of the corner, you should move weight _back_ and/or > softening > the rear shocks. HUH? If you move weight back it will increase > traction > on the rear tires, but won't this be outweighed by the excess weight? > Won't softening rear shocks allow even more weight redistribute to the > rear > and loosen it up even more? This make no sense to me! > Jp

If you want some good information on setups try the Nascar 2 champions handbook. It has a 4 page troubleshooting chart for tweaking the setup.

not so. softer shocks increase bite, period. therefore you are putting bite in the rear with softer shocks in the rear. weight in the back will make the car loose going in and tight going out. the weight helps set the car through the shocks coming out of the corner. going in though, it acts like swinging a yo yo on a string, when you turn, all the weight want to fly outside. There is a give and take to this though, which is why you must strive and experiment for the best balance possible. Is this clear? > Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it >says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move weight >forward and/or add spoiler. This makes sense; too much weight in the >rear will cause the back of the car to almost break loose, so moving weight >forward will take this away and more spoiler will help press the back of the

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>car down against the track. HOWEVER, it also says that if the car is loose >coming out of the corner, you should move weight _back_ and/or softening >the rear shocks. HUH? If you move weight back it will increase traction >on the rear tires, but won't this be outweighed by the excess weight? >Won't softening rear shocks allow even more weight redistribute to the rear >and loosen it up even more? This make no sense to me! > Jp

: : : Softening the shock/spring will dampen the weight transfer onto that wheel. : Therefore, if you soften a wheel that is getting weight transferred to it - : like the rear wheels when you hit the throttle - you will dampen the weight : transfer onto the rear wheel. By slowing the transfer of weight - the wheel : is less likely to lose grip and thereby slide. The bad news is the slower : weight transfer can make the car seem unresponsive - so this is a delicate : balance. : /TomH Just one question: if the transfer of weight to the rear wheel is slower, doesn't that mean that LESS rear grip is available because less weight is available to push the rear wheels on to the track ? Or is it the case that the rear wheel has less momentum to push against when it starts accelerating, due to the absorption of force by the spring, and so doesn't slide ? (i.e. Does the rear kind of squat down when you accelerate ?) Am I confused ? Ryan Mitchley

> Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it >says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move weight >forward and/or add spoiler...HOWEVER, it also says that if the car is loose >coming out of the corner, you should move weight _back_ and/or softening >the rear shocks. HUH? This is a part of the "traction circle" concept you may be familiar with. When exiting a corner you are trying to change your tires from giving sideways grip (in cornering) to forward drive. In this instance more weight over the rear tires will help them to bite the track better as you try to put more and more power to them (accelerating out of the turn). If there is not enough weight your driven tires will spin, and in a rear-drive car that means the rear will step out of line or spin you. Adding weight is one way to help this phenomemon. The drawback is that more weight in the rear can cause you problems on corner entry (the Porsche 911 being the classic "tail-heavy" example), but then everything about car setup involves a compromise of some kind. Choose the fastest compromise that you can comfortably keep on the track. Cheers! John

So confused you apparently dont even know your own name, ks Dennid :-) more seriously though, I know softening the shocks/springs gives you more grip (as it should) and I think its because the car is able to roll slightly when its going around the corners, so it takes some of the 'sideways' force rather than everything going onto the tires and this means that effectively the tires are getting less stress than if the car was rigidly fixed to them. Of course I could be completely wrong, but its the best explanation I can come up with. it works anyway Steve

>> Ok, I shouls post this before it drives me crazy. In the manual, it >>says that if your car is loose entering corners, you should move weight >>forward and/or add spoiler...HOWEVER, it also says that if the car is loose

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>>coming out of the corner, you should move weight _back_ and/or softening >>the rear shocks. HUH? >This is a part of the "traction circle" concept you may be familiar >with. When exiting a corner you are trying to change your tires from >giving sideways grip (in cornering) to forward drive. In this instance >more weight over the rear tires will help them to bite the track >better as you try to put more and more power to them (accelerating out >of the turn). If there is not enough weight your driven tires will >spin, and in a rear-drive car that means the rear will step out of >line or spin you. Adding weight is one way to help this phenomemon.

Except in N2, more rear bias more loose you are exiting a corner. Excessive (sp?) weight over the rear tires makes them break traction as well, because the *** on the tire surface starts to break apart ... there's a scientific phrase for it but I can't remember it ... HH

The "scientific phrase" (U.S.) might be BLISTER. The so called shocks should be thought of more as springs. A softer rear shock (spring) will allow the weight to transfer to to the back of the car. This is transfered from the the front of the car. Thus the rocking motion you see on the***pit view as you speed up and hit the brakes. The extra rear % is known as the pendulam effect. Or like swinging you little brother in circles by his hands, spin him fast enough and let go. It is just like trying to corner at Hickory with a lot of rear % on stiff shocks. With stiff shocks the tire takes all the abuse. It would be like a Kart with no suspension. Softer setups let the shock (spring) do the work. The sideways grip is known as SIDE BITE. You have to ballance car with f\r % and shock values. In real life the shock only controls weight transfer speed. But you dont need to know that for N2 so if you don't setup the real thing forget about what a shock does in real life. Unless you have GP2 and use the advanced setups with compression and rebound.

Adding more download to a tyre doesn't quite increase the gri in proportion, and this is why softening springs improves grip. You can get more cornering force from one end of the car by trying to share the load eenly between the tyres - except that weight transfer is going to happen, so you need to resist it somewhere... Another way to look at it is that with extremely stiff springs/dampers, as soon as you reach any sort of bump in the track (and there will always be some) the wheel will just hop across the crests of the ripples - wheel in air = no grip. Softer springs/dampers allow the wheel to follow the ground properly, but make it less stable and responsive. HTH, Jonny --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Hodgson | TTech Predator | | than win by two laps | LSU Archery Club and Orchestra | ---------------------------------------------------------------------