CPR

Today I saw a new ad for Firestone tires on tv. They will GIVE ;you a copy of Cart Precision Racing with the purchase of 4 new promo tires. You don't even have to buy a good set of 4 to get CPR. I quess there are so many unwanted copies of CPR,that Microsoft is willing to do anything just to move them out of their whse. Regards, Joel Willstein

I saw the same ad, obviously no one at Firestone has played the game : )

% Today I saw a new ad for Firestone tires on tv. They will GIVE % ;you a copy of Cart Precision Racing with the purchase of 4 new promo % tires. You don't even have to buy a good set of 4 to get CPR. I quess % there are so many unwanted copies of CPR,that Microsoft is willing to % do anything just to move them out of their whse. Did you also catch the "truth in advertising"? They say you will receive a free auto racing "game". ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998, it was written:

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> % Today I saw a new ad for Firestone tires on tv. They will GIVE > % ;you a copy of Cart Precision Racing with the purchase of 4 new promo > % tires. You don't even have to buy a good set of 4 to get CPR. I quess > % there are so many unwanted copies of CPR,that Microsoft is willing to > % do anything just to move them out of their whse. > Did you also catch the "truth in advertising"? They say you will > receive a free auto racing "game". ;-) > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Why does everyone hate CPR? I was really impressed with the job that Microsoft did. I think its one of the best racing games I have played. I have not played a lot of racing games, but find this one to be extremely entertaining, and realistic. I love the feel of the game, it makes you feel like you are right in the car, the graphics are great and fast (3dfx). Every message in here is anti-CPR, and I think its just because it was produced my Microsoft. The game has its flaws, but I think its major strongpoint is the multiplayer capability. I think people are biased against it because of its ties to Microsoft, there are tons of games mentioned in this newsgroup that are 100 times worse than Cart, that receive a lot more praise. - Ronald Hall

> <<Every message in here is anti-CPR, and I think its just because it was > produced my Microsoft...I think people are biased > against it because of its ties to Microsoft>> Let me get this straight -- what you're saying is that you think people are biased against CPR because its made by Microsoft. Is that what you're saying, that people don't like CPR because of its ties to Microsoft? In other words, are you saying that because CPR was made by Microsoft, people don't like it? Have I got that right? Oddly enough, I think you think that people bad-mouth CPR because it was made by Microsoft... In all seriousness, if you go back through the dreary thousands of threads relating to CPR (made by Microsoft, by the way), you'll find that most people don't like it because its AI is exceptionally unrealistic, and that many people have commented that it is much more playable online, head-to-head. Also, the non-implementation of yellow flags, high system requirements, difficult set-up, and Microsoft's (they make CPR) vapor support have been of concern to people who paid the full Monty for what was, in essence, an unfinished sim. Now, with Dean Lester's announcement on Apex, it seems all too clear that Microsoft's "we will support this sim forever" gives a new, and very finite, meaning to the word "forever." But hey! They're working VERY *** Monster Mash Madness, and are really interesed in finding another auto-related sim they can half-finish...after they take a well-deserved vacation. Bart Brown

>Why does everyone hate CPR? Because it "sux"? ;-) Seriously, it has several fundamental flaws. The graphics are slow and generally unimpressive, even on 3Dfx systems. The AI is abysmal. The driving feel is adequate, but nothing to write home about. In short, there are games that are better in all these categories (F1RS comes to mind), so why would you expect anyone to like CPR? Nope, nothing could be further from the truth. You will see this when Microsoft releases their next racing game, which most people will like a lot. (I can't say much more, as I'm on the beta program, but it rocks.) Joe

>Why does everyone hate CPR? I was really impressed with the job that Well, here a few reasons why I don't play CPR any more (after buying F1RS). - Slow graphics (with more than a few cars or even moderate graphics options on) - Terrible AI - Poor view down track - Inaccurate braking at high speed (brakes shouldn't lock) - Cars don't turn in under braking or lifting (like weight transfer isn't modeled) - The game rearranges my desktop icons when I exit - Poor steering control - Weather effects not accurate - Lack of yellow flags There's no way I'll ever start this game up again after playing F1RS. Nothing against Microsoft. I program using their products and like their development and office products. -- Kevin (Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:08:29 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >Did you also catch the "truth in advertising"? They say you will >receive a free auto racing "game". ;-) Shhhh - you'll wake Randy up ;-) Cheers! John

: Seriously, it has several fundamental flaws. The graphics are slow and : generally unimpressive, even on 3Dfx systems. Not sure I agree. I have an STB Velocity 128, and the game flies (this is on a standard P200 w 32MB), even faster than TOCA, which is more of an arcade game anyway. With the rendering quality set to best, and even with almost all details turned on, the game gives a real impression of speed. :The driving feel is adequate, but nothing to write home about. I must admit that the stock CPR settings for controller (wheel) and car set-ups don't show the game off AT ALL. When I first ran the game, the car was understeering like a tank (well, actually, I haven't driven a tank yet but will if anyone offers ;-) ), and irritatingly unresponsive to steering input. After a bit of fiddling, I can get a setup which is not far from some of mine on GP2. : In short, : there are games that are better in all these categories (F1RS comes to : mind), so why would you expect anyone to like CPR? Better in the CART category ? : Nope, nothing could be further from the truth. You will see this when : Microsoft releases their next racing game, which most people will like : a lot. (I can't say much more, as I'm on the beta program, but it : rocks.) What class of car does it simulate, or is that still classified ? : Joe Ryan Mitchley (in mind) (Kevin Dennis in netpresence)

>: Nope, nothing could be further from the truth. You will see this when >: Microsoft releases their next racing game, which most people will like >: a lot. (I can't say much more, as I'm on the beta program, but it >: rocks.) >What class of car does it simulate, or is that still classified ? Monster Trucks. Joe

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><HTML>Subject: Re: CPR<BR> >Date: 3/19/98 12:35 PM Pacific Standard Time<BR> ><BR> ><BR> >>: Nope, nothing could be further from the truth. You will see this when<BR> >>: Microsoft releases their next racing game, which most people will like<BR> >>: a lot. (I can't say much more, as I'm on the beta program, but it<BR> >>: rocks.)<BR> ><BR> >>What class of car does it simulate, or is that still classified ?<BR> ><BR> >Monster Trucks.<BR> ><BR> >Joe<BR> ><BR> ></HTML>

Racing Game? Monster Trucks????? What the hell is Microsoft thinking? Don

> Racing Game? Monster Trucks????? What the hell is Microsoft thinking? Money from the clueless!

: Today I saw a new ad for Firestone tires on tv. They will GIVE : ;you a copy of Cart Precision Racing with the purchase of 4 new promo : tires. You don't even have to buy a good set of 4 to get CPR. I quess : there are so many unwanted copies of CPR,that Microsoft is willing to : do anything just to move them out of their whse. : For better or worse, CPR has hit the shelves here in Switzerland. Our largest retail shop for notebook computers has a splashy software ad including this title as an "exciting race simulation". I cringe at the thought of people trying to run it on a non-3D platform life a notebook. ICR2 flies on my notebook. CPR lasted 5 minutes on my HD.

>Racing Game? Monster Trucks????? What the hell is Microsoft thinking? They're thinking about making a great arcade racing game, obviously. Joe

Great, Another expert for CPR that tried it for 5 mins. Hey at least you are twice the expert Byron is! (he tried it for 2 min) You know I think you guys just dont have the Testicular Fortitude required to drive CPR. :o The Sandman

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>: Today I saw a new ad for Firestone tires on tv. They will GIVE >: ;you a copy of Cart Precision Racing with the purchase of 4 new promo >: tires. You don't even have to buy a good set of 4 to get CPR. I quess >: there are so many unwanted copies of CPR,that Microsoft is willing to >: do anything just to move them out of their whse. >: >For better or worse, CPR has hit the shelves here in Switzerland. >Our largest retail shop for notebook computers has a splashy >software ad including this title as an "exciting race simulation". >I cringe at the thought of people trying to run it on a non-3D >platform life a notebook. ICR2 flies on my notebook. CPR lasted >5 minutes on my HD.

Sorry, I just don't consider Monster Trucks a form of motorsport. Entertainment maybe, but what's the sport? There are so many wonderful forms of motorsport out there to model, why Testerone Trucks? Oh hell, what do I care anyway, Microsoft has already lost me as a customer of racing sims ( like Bill cares! ). CPR is such a disappointment, there will be pigs flying in a very cold hell before I buy Microsoft's idea of a racing sim again. Don

> You know I think you guys just dont have the Testicular Fortitude required to drive CPR. :o>> I think you have CPR confused with Microsoft's next "greatest racing sim ever produced", Testosterone Trucks...an honest mistake, I guess, since even MS can't tell the difference... Bart Brown

>Oh hell, what do I care anyway, Microsoft has already lost me as a customer of >racing sims ( like Bill cares! ). CPR is such a disappointment, there will be >pigs flying in a very cold hell before I buy Microsoft's idea of a racing sim >again. <shrug> I see no reason to be so idealistic about it. Careful yes, and check out the demos before buying (I didn't like CPR either, so I didn't buy it), but I do that for most companies. I think Microsoft is probably better suited to arcadish racers, but there's nothing wrong with that, in fact there's a shortage of interesting, fun, arcade racers. Joe

Joe, I have no trouble with a company wanting to sell arcade racers, as long as it's labled as such. I think what disappoints me the most about CPR is that Racer Magazine could put their name on the thing! >I see no reason to be so idealistic about it. Careful yes, and check<BR> You are right of course, I'm new to computers and racing sims and that is one of the first lessons learned. I'll know better next time to check the demo AND this Newsgroup before spending the $$. Funny, I would never have purchased F1RS if I had only driven the demo, the newsgroup convinced me that it was worth buying, and I'm havin' a blast! Don

>Why does everyone hate CPR? I was really impressed with the job that >Microsoft did. I think its one of the best racing games I have played. I >have not played a lot of racing games, but find this one to be extremely >entertaining, and realistic. I think there is a cause and effect here. You need to try more racing sims to find out what's wrong with CPR. That's not true. It has its defenders. Nice try. The fact of the matter is most people here would have LOVED to love the game. I'm a CART fanatic and wanted the be-all,end-all CART game. The problem here is what was promised vs. what was delivered. Microsoft ambitiously chose to create a high-end sim with every option imaginable and claim full realism to the real thing. They fell short in too many areas and THAT is why they failed. How much "Microsoft" the company has to do with this is up to the individual to figure out. Think about it this way: Mauricio Gugelmin was quoted by Micrososft as saying that the grip level was "perfect". This was for version 1.0. For the patch, they removed most of the grip in the intermediate and professional modes, to the degree that you don't get enough downforce at high speeds. So, is the grip still "perfect?" How can it be "perfect" in 1.0 and 1.1 if it was radically altered? This is the kind of thing that has caused so many people problems with CPR. It had promise and has a ton of features in it, but Microsoft didn't finish the game, and still hasn't. As someone who has raced in CART leagues online, yes its okay in multiplayer, but certainly doesn't stand up to NASCAR Racing Series on TEN, where you can race with around 20 other people! Perhaps because they set their sites lower, and they fall off the radar a bit. An arcade racer like Sega Daytona isn't going to get much attention here. Why should it? It hardly belongs in rec.autos.simulators. Sega makes no claims that Sega Daytona is a realistic rendition of a stock car, and there is nothing in the box which gives it the kind of depth a game like NASCAR does, so its hardly worth mentioning. With CPR, Microsoft was here on Usenet and in our faces about how proud they were of their achievement and how realistic CART was. So by setting the bar that high, they made targets of themselves when they failed to achieve it. I have been more balanced than most when it comes to CPR. I race it occassionally and am still part of that online league. But the reality is, compared to its peers (F1RS, GP2, IndyCar II and NASCAR 2), its got a lot of flaws that still need fixing, and no one knows when or if its going to happen. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

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>Sorry, I just don't consider Monster Trucks a form of motorsport. Entertainment >maybe, but what's the sport? There are so many wonderful forms of motorsport >out there to model, why Testerone Trucks? >Oh hell, what do I care anyway, Microsoft has already lost me as a customer of >racing sims ( like Bill cares! ). CPR is such a disappointment, there will be >pigs flying in a very cold hell before I buy Microsoft's idea of a racing sim >again.

I understand your skepticism, but I'd bet there will be a demo of MTM2 out and I'd encourage you to try it anyway. You might be surprised. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

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>On Mon, 16 Mar 1998 15:08:29 GMT, "Michael E. Carver" >>Did you also catch the "truth in advertising"? They say you will >>receive a free auto racing "game". ;-) >Shhhh - you'll wake Randy up ;-)

Hullo <G> Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Randy-- Exceptionally well-put. I think most of the people who had the CPR hype shoved down their throats were less than exuberant about the final product (as it now seems to be...no evidence to the contrary, anyway), while those who came late to the party can't quite understand the depth of the scorn this sim has produced. The reason for that deep resentment is exactly what you stated: MS set the bar VERY high right at the outset, claiming they would out-EVERYTHING the competition. IMHO, it would have been nearly impossible for *any* company to meet those expectations; if CPR had, in fact, been on a *par* with the standards set by Papyrus and Microprose, there would have been the usual grumbling upon release, but nothing like what has happened. To compound the difficulties, MS first belittled those who weren't wetting themselves with joy over v1, then -- when the clamor grew, rather than abated -- came on with saccharine promises of patches that would "fix everything"; promises which, to further exacerbate the situation, made the sim worse instead of better, and then slightly better than worse. People in this NG STILL ask when the final, "fixed" version of CPR will be released, and MS says nothing, despite their promise of support for CPR "forever", and their promise of an understanding and helpful presence in this NG. The only word from Redmond shows up on the Apex site, which consists of a weak-dick mumbling about how the programmers need a vacation, and how MS will continue to support "motorsports simulations" -- no mention of CPR whatsoever -- and that, Oh Boy!, wait 'til you guys see Monster Truck Madness! If anyone finds it difficult to understand a certain measure of cynicism towards MS after such a chain of events, please drop me a line: I've got some beautiful waterside acreage in north central Florida I'll sell you for such a deal! Bart Brown

Something to think about: Terminal Reality went off and joined g.o.d. This might have thrown a monkey wrench into well-laid plans for CPR's future even if sales did not. If TR decided they weren't happy with the money/credit or both they were getting for CPR, then they might just choose to develop for g.o.d. instead and assure themselves the right be publicize themselves more and get more royalties per copy. They would probably not get the rights to the source code for MS CPR if MS funded it. Therefore, MS may be in a situation where they are quite simply trying to decide whether to find another developer to continue CPR or quit development of it altogether. Perhaps I'm giving MS too much of the benefit of a doubt here, but I do think its important to remember that CPR was not a homegrown MS product, so MS is to some degree at the mercy of the developers of the product. If TR decides not to re-up for another version, MS is stuck with the code and no developers to give it to. So they may well have fully intended to keep their promises at the outset, only to find that TRI said "enough of this" and left the party. This, combined with possible lackluster sales of the first version, may well seal CPR's fate. I personally welcome competition in the CART arena and would like nothing more as a CART fan than to see Papyrus, MS and whoever else slug it out in the CART arena and may the best sim win. We have lots of competitors trying to sell F1 sims, but precious few selling stock car and CART sims. Look at the result. F1RS has to best GP2, and look at the product we get. I wonder what MS might have done had Papyrus been working on a sequel to IndyCar II all this time. We might well have a real fight on our hands. At any rate, all of the above is nothing more than unfueled speculation, based upon reading the same press releases and announcements that everyone else does. Without taking a thing away from your criticisms of CPR, I'd recommend that you not pre-judge MTM2 based upon what happened with CPR. The products are very different in their focus and scope. You may well be cutting off your nose to spite your face if you condemn MTM2 sight unseen. Cynicism I understand, but at the same time I recommend that whenever they come out with a demo you try it out. You might find yourself pleasantly surprised and having fun. This won't necessarily make you forgive MS for CPR, but at least you might find something else fun to play while you wait for the next CART sim. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

> If TR decides not to re-up for another version, MS is stuck with the code and no developers to give it to. So they may well have fully intended to keep their promises at the outset, only to find that TRI said "enough of this" and left the party. This, combined with possible lackluster sales of the first version, may well seal CPR's fate... It's my understanding that TRI's covenant with g.o.d. precludes their collaboration with MS or anyone else not in g.o.d.'s house of many mansions. I could well be misinformed, but that's the way the g.o.d. press release sounded to me... Well, you *could* be right, but I have no interest in trucks, Monster or otherwise. For me it's kinda like military sims: while I'm a sucker for anything Civil War or WWII, I would have no interest in a sim about, say, the Crimean War; no matter how good it is graphically or in terms of playability, I'm not even going to take the time to mess with something I'm not interested in historically. Tunnel vision, perhaps, but it's *my* tunnel vision. That's beside the point, however: my beef with this apparent MTM/CPR bait-and-switch is that MS, through its rah-rah reps John Browne and Dean Lester, have not had the consideration (after a hundred miles of blather about how they would "listen to this NG" and how responsive they were going to be to our concerns) to make any statement about the still-unfinished CPR. Their cutesy-pie "we've got a secret and you're gonna love it!" BS about MTM just adds injury to insult, AFAIC. Their "intentions" may have been fine and noble, but their performance has basically said to the NG: "You guys are so stupid you'll take anything we give you. All we need to do is TELL you how great it is." This attitude may not (yet!) have been copyrighted by MS, but they certainly are good at it, and not just in the area of simulations. Just ask the DOJ. As for MS' original intentions -- well, we all know what the road to Hell is paved with... Regards Bart Brown

No Confused I am not. I do know the diff between a race car and a Truck. Now the diff between you and a wimp, now there I might be confused! Flame on! >> You know I think you guys just dont have the Testicular Fortitude required to drive CPR. :o>>

As I said in another post TRI is the developer of MTM2 right? Mike

As I said in another post TRI is the developer of MTM2 right? Mike -- Remove-No-Spam to Reply

But this has nothing to do with MTM. They are two different products, in different genres. That's just silly. They released a game generally thought of poorly (CPR). Now if they release a different game that meets its goals better and is more fun that's somehow an "insult"? BTW, Microsoft hasn't posted ANYTHING about MTM here, not a peep. There's just been a couple innocent comments from beta testers that the game looks hot (from the same people, I must point out, who did NOT think CPR was a success). How so? The general consensus in this newsgroup seems to be that CPR is not a worthwhile purchase (to put it mildly). So, clearly, telling us how great it is (which all publishers do of course) is obviously NOT "all they need to do". Joe

Joe opined: <<BTW, Microsoft hasn't posted ANYTHING about MTM here, not a peep.> <<That's just silly. They released a game generally thought of poorly (CPR). Now if they release a different game that meets its goals better and is more fun that's somehow an "insult"? >> <<So, clearly, telling us how great it is (which all publishers do of course) is obviously NOT "all they need to do".>> Joe-- I don't want to be insulting, but (a) did you even read my post? and (b) are the nuances of English sentence structure a new area for you? As I clearly stated, a representative of MS posted to the Apex website (Official Microsoft CPR Hideout... just a joke, guys!), not here -- although both MS reps who have appeared here had promised "ongoing support and presence" in this NG. Here, once again, is the message posted at the Apex website by the MS rep, in reply to several messages asking *specifically* about the status of further development of CPR--either finishing the current version or expecting all the suckers to boot in the money for a spurious v2. Remember, this was a thread response to questions specifically about CPR -- not MTM or Bill Gates' pimples or anything else. If you doubt my veracity or judgement on this subject, by all means go check out the Message Board at Apex: [link lost in import] Here's the "reply": <<Sorry for lack of postings - I have had trouble logging in here. The current situation is that we are finishing MTM2 with TRi right now. The game is awesome - and almost finished: mtm2.gamestats.com/ www.microsoft.com/games/gamestock98/Monster_Truck_Madness_2.htm Once that is done and the team has had a vacation we'll plan what we do next. So, there is no information available right now - as soon as there is you'll know. We hope the Paint Kit and Track Editor will keep you guys busy in the meantime. I know John has a lot of information on the Track Editor, and I am sure he can answer any questions you may have. We are looking forward to racing on your new tracks! I have said this before, but let me restate that we are committed to the motor racing category and you will see and hear plenty of exciting announcements from us moving ahead. All the best,>> Tell me where you see any information about CPR in this message. Again -- forgive me for repeating myself, but I want this to be clear -- this very same MS rep posted a message in this very NewsGroup, just before TRI left to join g.o.d., that MS would "support CPR completely". Now that has changed to "we are committed to the motor racing category". Since the departure of TRI, every question, both in this NG and at the Apex site, regarding the future of CPR, has been met with absolute non-response from MS, except a brief message regarding the availability of the track editor. All MS will talk about is MTM2, and they've even tried to deflect questions about CPR by gurgling about "the new sim we're working on", pretending, apparently, that it is something OTHER than MTM2. Be my guest, by all means, and go peruse the relevant threads at Apex and the archived NG posts at DejaNews, but there's the answer to your 'That's just silly. They released a game generally thought of poorly (CPR). Now if they release a different game that meets its goals better and is more fun that's somehow an "insult"?' Yes, it's an insult that they think anyone is so stupid that they'll accept a NON-answer to a question MS could easily answer, or try to dodge the CPR question entirely with such infantile nonsense. <<So, clearly, telling us how great it is (which all publishers do of course) is obviously NOT "all they need to do".>> No...REALLY? Isn't that exactly what I said? Irony in the English language is a tricky thing, I suppose, but please re-read that part of my message a few times. If you still don't get it, my intent was to state that MS (certainly not alone amongst software publishers) apparently thinks that boasting over and over about how good a sim CPR is will somehow convince everyone that it's true, when it is demonstrably, by common consensus if you will, NOT true. Instead of wasting their time boasting, playing moronic head-games, and pretending the problem doesn't exist, they should either hike up their knickers and do the necessary work (which means, of course, hiring someone else to do it -- TRI if possible, which doesn't seem impossible, given that they're working with them on MTM2), or admit that it's the end of the line for CPR, tough luck, but what can we do. Of course, admitting such a thing would hardly fit in with MS' image of itself, as amply demonstrated by the boastful petulance of their two "reps" who no longer respond to direct questions. Do you think this is responsible behavior by a company who has proclaimed to the world that they have produced the "greatest racing sim" ever seen? Please let me know which part of this is unclear. Regards Bart Brown

In fact, having just re-visited the Message Board at the Apex website, I encourage everyone who has any interest in CPR (a rapidly dwindling number, obviously) to go review the fascinating dialogues regarding the present state of CPR, and MS' "official" (Dean Lester) and unofficial (beta testers...I mean "official" beta testers, not just people who bought the beta sim for $50) responses. If you think you've seen the whole story in here, you are mistaken. Regards Bart Brown

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> >Sorry, I just don't consider Monster Trucks a form of motorsport. Entertainment > >maybe, but what's the sport? There are so many wonderful forms of motorsport > >out there to model, why Testerone Trucks? > >Oh hell, what do I care anyway, Microsoft has already lost me as a customer of > >racing sims ( like Bill cares! ). CPR is such a disappointment, there will be > >pigs flying in a very cold hell before I buy Microsoft's idea of a racing sim > >again. > I understand your skepticism, but I'd bet there will be a demo of MTM2 > out and I'd encourage you to try it anyway. You might be surprised.

I just can't wait for the buyers of MTM2 that are waiting for the probable much needed patchs to be told that MS will get around to it when the team finishes CPR off and takes a holiday, hehehehehehehe.

I might ask you the same thing, since none of that lengthy message contradicted what I said. You are still complaining about CPR. Fine. I don't like CPR either, or how MS handled it. I still say that's no reason to be religious about other products Microsoft produces, which really have nothing to do with CPR. Be cautious, yes, as with several other developers who have on occasion failed to deliver the goods (Sierra, Activision, etc.), and don't buy until you try the demo and are satisfied with the quality. But I'm capable of evaluating products on a case by case basis. Joe

I was not here on this NG for this but, having seen the venom for CPR here I guess I can understand why they left. Now dont misunderstand me I am not saying any developer should let the heat get to them but, I also understand what it is to be human and well can you really blame anyone if they have had enough and decide there is nothing to be more to be gained here? I guess you have not heard about or seen screen shots of the new Motocross sim? Man Im sorry but I think your way off base here. You know sometimes folks like you sound like spoiled little brats! Most if not all sims need help right? Didn't so many yell and scream and flame about N2 3Dfx patch? By spoiled little brat I mean you think all companies can give instant satisfaction to all who ask for all titles? How long has CPR been out? How long has others been out that still need much work? It is not surprising to me that MS/ TRI left this NG and no other sim developer ever shows their face here. It is because of this absolute non tolerance zealot attitude. See here it is a prime example in your own words " certainly not alone amongst software publishers " They are saying it is a good sim so what? Man you ever hear of advertising? Do any sims come out and say hey this isn't too good but hey buy it? As far as whether or not it is good is a matter of opinion are you allowing any to have one besides yourself? Now you know I have spoken up many times for this sim. You know why? No I am not stupid, I happen to think it has many many good qualities. I will also say right here right now it also has some problems most of which I have worked around others I know I never will as it will take a patch. So what? I still say it is a dam good 1st attempt and I will buy CPR2 if it happens. See same old story. Who is really playing head games? Then you come back with that same we want it now whaaaaaaaaaaaa whaaaaaaaaaaa. Then if we cant have it RIGHT now well that must mean they gave up end of the line woe is me :-( Get a grip !! I think this is totally appropriate when dealing with children like you. As you never hear the answer. They said they are committed to it right? What part of that don't you understand? Oh right its that I want my bottle now thing isn't it Bart? whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Mike

bend over like he does and be good accepting little girls. Hey Mike, go get yourself another leaning tower of pizza project for your construction company will ya!

>Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah>> Since you admittedly were "not here", have not taken the time to read the various threads on the subjects, and basically have no idea what you're talking about on the particular subject of MS' non-responsiveness to the MANY people who are upset about the stillborn CPR, I'm not about to do the legwork for you and rehash several months' worth of arguments. If you're actually interested in the FACTS of the matter, rather than your personal perception of me (about which I could not care less, believe me), go the the Apex website, check out DejaNews, judge for yourself. If you're too lazy to do that, and want to come in during the middle of the third act and act like you know the story, talk to yourself -- I haven't got time. Bart Brown

>I don't like CPR either, or > how MS handled it. I still say that's no reason to be religious about > other products Microsoft produces, which really have nothing to do > with CPR. Joe-- Ahh, now I see what you're getting at. Actually, it's quite the other way 'round -- 8 years of experience with Microsoft products has made me somewhat cynical about anything with their banner affixed to it. Biased? You bet! Justifiably? I sure think so. I won't even go into the stupendous corporate cynicism behind the hacked apps and OS's designed with built-in planned obsolescence of such immediacy as to make US automakers of the '60s look like the staff of Consumer Reports; or MS' "intertwined" OS/browser arguments which assumed everyone in the Department of Justice had IQs barely in the double digits. Here's a story, fresh this morning from ZDNet (Ziff-Davis Publishing -- you know, those TOTALLY anti-MS/WIN/DOS folks who publish PC World and PC Week. Uhh, for the benefit of the language-impaired, that was irony/sarcasm): Is Microsoft Ripping Off its Beta Testers? URL: [link lost in import] Berst Alert Jesse Berst, Editorial DirectorZDNet AnchorDesk Monday, March 23, 1998 You're very ill so you go to a doctor. He says he's testing a new drug that could make him a multimillionaire. Would you like to try it? It may save your life. Or it may kill you. Oh, by the way, he's going to charge you to be his guinea pig. And you have to pay in advance. That's how many computer users must feel these days since Microsoft invited 100,000 home users to preview Win98. Previewers pay $29.95, ($39.95 Canada) plus shipping, handling and tax to get a first look at Microsoft's OS-in-waiting. MS says it's merely responding to customer demand. It can't afford to give free copies to all the people who want a preview, so it is making it available at a nominal fee* for those who want to test it. Certainly consumers don't have to participate. But I am concerned that Microsoft may be taking advantage of its *** position. Though this is a consumer release, many users -- developers and system administrators for example --don't want a preview so much as they need one. As much information in advance to prepare for what's ahead is essential. Same is true for that ever-growing work-at-home population. They're trapped. And MS is taking advantage of that fact. Dont believe me? Just look at the terms of the beta preview: No discount, rebate or free upgrade when the final is released MS only supports "critical" issues Beta expires December 98 MS doesn't want your feedback What a contrast to the browser wars. Microsoft has browser competitors, so it gives its Internet Explorer away for free. But since there's no OS competitor, Microsoft can overcharge for the product AND charge consumers to test it. MS could provide a download (albeit a hefty one) and save the materials costs for consumers. But then there'd be no extra cash for Microsoft. So, is Microsoft providing a needed service at a fair fee? Or is it taking advantage of the fact it has no competition? *From another ZDNet article: " As technical beta testers get to put RC-0 through its paces, home consumers--up to 100,000 of them who agree to pay $29.95 -- can receive beta copies of the CD version of Windows 98 Beta 3. Microsoft is advertising the consumer beta, which began this week, as a program for home, rather than corporate, customers. Officials said the fee charged to consumers covers the cost of shipping, handling and technical support." That's a lot of money for shipping and handling. And remember, for technical support, "MS only supports 'critical' issues". Nice deal, huh? See any parallels with CPR? Bart Brown

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> >Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah>> > Since you admittedly were "not here", have not taken the time to read > the various threads on the subjects, and basically have no idea what > you're talking about on the particular subject of MS' non-responsiveness > to the MANY people who are upset about the stillborn CPR, I'm not about > to do the legwork for you and rehash several months' worth of arguments.

First off just because I "wasn't here" when you were flaming John & Dean with you childish gibberish does not mean I haven't researched it. Second, rehashing your " several months " of arguments could be summed up in about 3 words Im sure! Interested in whose facts yours? Nope I am perfectly capable as I said of having my own opinion. As far as personal opinion of you well, I too could care less yet its funny you like to dish it out but cant take the same eh? You crack me up with " go to the Apex" I have been there from the start. Perhaps you would have noticed that but YOU only have been there long enough to post you childish gibberish in fact I think you posted once and it was gibberish. Where do you get off thinking I have not judged for myself? Listen you little *** with ears from now on keep it here on this NG dont mail your bullshit to my E-mail address got it? I have seen this from you before with others on this NG. You want to respond to a NG posting in your way then do it here. You want mail? Your screwing with the wrong person, I will send you something that will take you 2 months to sort & cure !! You've been warned wise up. Mike

Umm Byron you have me confused with one of your punk boy friends! > bend over like he does and be good accepting little girls. > Hey Mike, go get yourself another leaning tower of pizza project for > your construction company will ya!

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> >Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah>> > Since you admittedly were "not here", have not taken the time to read > the various threads on the subjects, and basically have no idea what > you're talking about on the particular subject of MS' non-responsiveness > to the MANY people who are upset about the stillborn CPR, I'm not about > to do the legwork for you and rehash several months' worth of arguments. > If you're actually interested in the FACTS of the matter, rather than > your personal perception of me (about which I could not care less, > believe me), go the the Apex website, check out DejaNews, judge for > yourself. If you're too lazy to do that, and want to come in during the > middle of the third act and act like you know the story, talk to > yourself -- I haven't got time.

AND YET YOU HAVE TIME TO POST THIS TWICE AND SEND YOUR *** TO MY PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRESS?

Well that's fair enough, I don't really disagree with anything you've posted. Microsoft has certainly gotten up to their share of "dirty tricks" over the years, especially with operating systems, and that "pay for the beta" idea reallys stinks I agree. But they are a software behemoth, and they produce a lot of programs. Every now and then one of them is pretty good. I don't really see what good it would do to deprive myself of the good ones. Joe

<<Your screwing with the wrong person, I will send you something that will take you 2 months to sort & cure !! You've been warned wise up. Mike>> I have sent your threat to your ISP, and have informed them of my intention to contact the FCC should they choose not to act on what is at least a violation of TOS, and quite possibly an actionable offense. A disagreement over a game in a newsgroup is one thing; a threat to attempt to trash my system is quite another, even in light of the fact (of which I'm sure you were unaware) that I do all my work and all my Net/Web access on a Mac -- which I'm afraid is quite immune to your "something that will take you 2 months to sort & cure". I only use a PC for *** -- which is really all it's good for at any rate. You've screwed with the wrong person. Bart Brown

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> > >Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah>> > > Since you admittedly were "not here", have not taken the time to read > > the various threads on the subjects, and basically have no idea what > > you're talking about on the particular subject of MS' non-responsiveness > > to the MANY people who are upset about the stillborn CPR, I'm not about > > to do the legwork for you and rehash several months' worth of arguments. > > If you're actually interested in the FACTS of the matter, rather than > > your personal perception of me (about which I could not care less, > > believe me), go the the Apex website, check out DejaNews, judge for > > yourself. If you're too lazy to do that, and want to come in during the > > middle of the third act and act like you know the story, talk to > > yourself -- I haven't got time. > AND YET YOU HAVE TIME TO POST THIS TWICE AND SEND YOUR *** > TO MY PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRESS? > > Bart Brown

Why yes, I do. Hope you enjoy the previous message as well. Bart Brown

A copy of this message has also been forwarded to your ISP.

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> > > AND YET YOU HAVE TIME TO POST THIS TWICE AND SEND YOUR *** > > > TO MY PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRESS? > > Why yes, I do. Hope you enjoy the previous message as well. > > Bart Brown > Your a very foolish person Bart. I told you and still you continue to fill > my PERSONAL E-MAIL BOX > with your crap? You are a very stupid person.

I've sent your second, personal email threat to your ISP as well -- they had already responded to my first message. I suggest you refrain from posting to my personal email, as you have asked me to do. Since we have nothing to say to one another that is appropriate to this newsgroup, and since we both have asked the other to NOT send personal email, this will be the last communication from me to you. By the way, if posting my address was some sort of attempt at intimidation, I'm STILL trembling. The message, in case you've forgotten it: Received: from haleakala.aloha.net (haleakala.aloha.net [204.94.112.33]) by franklin.concentric.net (8.8.8/(97/11/17 5.13)) id UAA24983; Mon, 23 Mar 1998 20:25:33 -0500 (EST) [1-800-745-2747 The Concentric Network] Errors-To: Received: from mikesdesigns (hawaii-75.u.aloha.net [204.94.116.132]) by haleakala.aloha.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with ESMTP id PAA23772 for 15:25:32 -1000 (HST) Message-Id: From: To: Subject: Re: CPR Date: Mon, 23 Mar 1998 15:24:58 -1000 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1161 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mozilla-Status: 0011 KEEP YOU SHIT OUT OF MY PERSONAL E_MAIL GOT IT? BARTON S BROWN 7 PLEASANT VLY. RD. CLINTON, CT. 06413-1247 ( 860 ) 664- 9082

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> > >Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah>> > > Since you admittedly were "not here", have not taken the time to read > > the various threads on the subjects, and basically have no idea what > > you're talking about on the particular subject of MS' non-responsiveness > > to the MANY people who are upset about the stillborn CPR, I'm not about > > to do the legwork for you and rehash several months' worth of arguments. > First off just because I "wasn't here" when you were flaming John & Dean > with you childish > gibberish does not mean I haven't researched it. Second, rehashing your " > several months " > of arguments could be summed up in about 3 words Im sure! > > If you're actually interested in the FACTS of the matter, rather than > > your personal perception of me (about which I could not care less, > > believe me), go the the Apex website, check out DejaNews, judge for > > yourself. If you're too lazy to do that, and want to come in during the > > middle of the third act and act like you know the story, talk to > > yourself -- I haven't got time. > Interested in whose facts yours? Nope I am perfectly capable as I said of > having my own opinion. As far as personal opinion of you well, I too could > care less > yet its funny you like to dish it out but cant take the same eh? > You crack me up with " go to the Apex" I have been there from the start. > Perhaps you would have noticed that but YOU only have been there long > enough to > post you childish gibberish in fact I think you posted once and it was > gibberish. > Where do you get off thinking I have not judged for myself? Listen you > little > *** with ears from now on keep it here on this NG dont mail your bullshit > to my E-mail address got it? I have seen this from you before with others > on this NG. > You want to respond to a NG posting in your way then do it here. You want > mail? > Your screwing with the wrong person, I will send you something that will > take you > 2 months to sort & cure !! You've been warned wise up. > Mike

Mikey, face it pal, your a complete scatterbrain. You have done this since I have known you. People flame the love of your life sim and then you flame them. Your a joke buddy! If you can't muster the brain power to construct a decent argument and instead choose to carry on like a 5 year old then just***off! Cheers.

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> <<Your screwing with the wrong person, I will send you something that > will take you 2 months to sort & cure !! You've been warned wise up. > Mike>> > I have sent your threat to your ISP, and have informed them of my > intention to contact the FCC should they choose not to act on what is at > least a violation of TOS, and quite possibly an actionable offense.

Yup typical of you, You edit the part that shows my threat is in retaliation to you sending YOUR ***to MY E-mail. Like I said you like to dish it out, but you sure cant take any back can you barty? Fine let the games begin !

> > AND YET YOU HAVE TIME TO POST THIS TWICE AND SEND YOUR *** > > TO MY PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRESS? > Why yes, I do. Hope you enjoy the previous message as well. > Bart Brown Your a very foolish person Bart. I told you and still you continue to fill my PERSONAL E-MAIL BOX with your crap? You are a very stupid person.

What is there to argue? It is you and Barty that carry on like the kids you are. Neither I or most who like CPR ever said it was problem free. We all have readily agreed that it has many gremlins so? But you and your boyfriend Bart continue to harass and spew your ***whenever possible. It guys like you & Barty who should toss off and release your pre puberty frustrations elsewhere. Oh but read that Byron get a life post first sounded quite reasonable to me.

Oh no not that :-0 Your a real piece of work. Lets see you send me all that ***in my personal e-mail box and your reporting me? Ditto on what I wrote below

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> A copy of this message has also been forwarded to your ISP. > > > > AND YET YOU HAVE TIME TO POST THIS TWICE AND SEND YOUR *** > > > > TO MY PERSONAL E-MAIL ADDRESS? > > > Why yes, I do. Hope you enjoy the previous message as well. > > > Bart Brown > > Your a very foolish person Bart. I told you and still you continue to

fill > > my PERSONAL E-MAIL BOX > > with your crap? You are a very stupid person.

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> > Mikey, face it pal, your a complete scatterbrain. You have done > > this since I have known you. People flame the love of your life sim and > > then you flame them. Your a joke buddy! If you can't muster the brain > > power to construct a decent argument and instead choose to carry on like > > a 5 year old then just***off! Cheers. > What is there to argue? It is you and Barty that carry on like the kids > you are. > Neither I or most who like CPR ever said it was problem free. We all have > readily agreed that > it has many gremlins so? But you and your boyfriend Bart continue to harass > and spew your > ***whenever possible. It guys like you & Barty who should toss off and > release your pre puberty frustrations elsewhere. > Oh but read that Byron get a life post first sounded quite reasonable to me.

See, there you go again. If you don't like what I post then don't read my posts. Like I said, we flame games, which is about 50% of what this NG is all about (hopefully developers read these flames and act on them in their next version or patch), and then some idiot like you comes along and flames people which starts irrelevant shitfights all over the place. Anyone who defends a product as disgraceful as CPR is, and does it by flaming people who flame it is just simply pathetic. Since shortly after knowing you I have seen you to be nothing but pathetic and you obviously have some type of serious problem. Take it elsewhere!

> Mikey, face it pal, your a complete scatterbrain. You have done >this since I have known you. People flame the love of your life sim and >then you flame them. Your a joke buddy! If you can't muster the brain >power to construct a decent argument and instead choose to carry on like >a 5 year old then just***off! Cheers. Well said. Joe

> > Mikey, < snipped the useless parts :-) > Well Said Joe? Really? You think so? Hehe and your Joe from Apex Message board? Did you not once attempt a witty post that said something like " talks much says little"???? And now you say well said to this??? Hehe ok joey glad to see you

> Well Said Joe? Really? You think so? Based on the messages I've seen from youso far, yes. No, never been there. Joe

> >Hehe and your Joe from Apex Message board? > No, never been there. > Joe In hindsight, I wish I could say the same!

Why did you get charged for the 3 copies of MTM2 your testing now? hmmm didn't think so. Mike

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> > >Hehe and your Joe from Apex Message board? > > No, never been there. > > Joe > In hindsight, I wish I could say the same!

Believe me considering you have posted your little flames there 27 times in the last month alone. We all wish you could say the same. Considering it is the "CPR Forum" a place where folks who actually have the sim discuss and exchange info. Mike

Well put Mr Negative

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> > >Hehe and your Joe from Apex Message board? > > No, never been there. > > Joe > In hindsight, I wish I could say the same!

> Why did you get charged for the 3 copies of MTM2 your testing now? Boy, you really have trouble following a thread don't you? We've been tlknig about the Windows98 beta. Joe

> > Why did you get charged for the 3 copies of MTM2 your testing now? > Boy, you really have trouble following a thread don't you? We've been > tlknig about the Windows98 beta. No Joe, I follow quite well :-) I know what you where talking about. You just missed the point. "Well it is a beta and not the final. If you want to take a peak at the show there is a price for admission. They are not asking for your feedback, they do give limited support. I suppose if all of this is a cause of angst, might I suggest NOT buying it? Personally, a beta version of an OS (most of which is not new) is the last thing I want on my HD." See Im here. Glad to see you joe :-)