TOCA realism

As a new comer to auto sims, I was wondering what the concensus was regarding the realism of codemastser's TOCA? How more realistic a deriving experience is F1RS / GP2? Thanks email incognito. Remove the z to reply.

Realism in TOCA is nil! It's fun, but no more than a glorified arcade racer. Check out the demo, it's the same as the full game but only 2 laps of one track.

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>As a new comer to auto sims, I was wondering what the concensus was >regarding the realism of codemastser's TOCA? How more realistic a >deriving experience is F1RS / GP2? >Thanks >email incognito. Remove the z to reply.

That's a rather casual answer, have you driven in a TOCA race? Considering the exact duplication of the tracks and cars and the fairly realistic handling I think nil as a score on realism is a little harsh. Yes it's far from perfect but Nil? It's always going to be a subjective answer but asking for an assesment on realism from anyone other than someone actually involved in the real thing is always going to lead to wildly varying 'informed opinions'. Best try it yourself. Charlie

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> Realism in TOCA is nil! It's fun, but no more than a glorified arcade > racer. > Check out the demo, it's the same as the full game but only 2 laps of > one > track. > >As a new comer to auto sims, I was wondering what the concensus was > >regarding the realism of codemastser's TOCA? How more realistic a > >deriving experience is F1RS / GP2?

It has pretty good track modelling and graphics, the AI suck, no set-up options, the car behaves quite good until you start doing tight turns. Traction is too good, etc.But there is a feature I hated at first, but am really enjoying now; bumps. The car bounces all over the place, maybe a tad exaggerated, but, from a "real" racers POV, this is something I miss in GP2, Nascar, ICR2 etc. If they put some more work down intp it, it could have been a sim. It's definitely arcade, but I enjoy it anyway:) Matt Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

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>That's a rather casual answer, have you driven in a TOCA race? Considering >the exact duplication of the tracks and cars and the fairly realistic >handling I think nil as a score on realism is a little harsh. Yes it's far >from perfect but Nil? >It's always going to be a subjective answer but asking for an assesment on >realism from anyone other than someone actually involved in the real thing >is always going to lead to wildly varying 'informed opinions'. Best try it >yourself.

I agree with this. The Codemasters people got a lot of gushing comments from the actual drivers. As we know, a quote isn't necessarily proof of quality, but they do have rather a lot of different drivers praising the realism. They also had a bunch of game reviewers up to drive the real cars on a track and then try it in TOCA and give their impressions, and they were very positive. I got TOCA a couple of days ago and have really been enjoying it. I'm from the U.S. and don't normally get to watch BTCC racing, but thankfully Speedvision carries it and they were re-running the Croft race from 1997. I was very impressed with how well the game captures the sport. I do feel that some traditional 'sim' elements are missing (setups, etc), but I am not in a position to say whether or not that's correct to the real thing, because its a different Formula than what we typically buy. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

>It has pretty good track modelling and graphics, the AI suck, no set-up >options, the car behaves quite good until you start doing tight turns. >Traction is too good, etc. You know, I thought traction felt 'too good' as well, but then I watched the real thing in television and I couldn't believe the cornering speeds. I went back to the game after the race and noted that the cornering speeds seemed pretty close. I just love this...another classic example of people treating sim/arcade like a lightswitch. Its not a toggle, guys, its a scale. Right now I'd say it leans more in the direction of a sim than an arcade game (consider arcade=Sega Daytona, for example). But of course I wouldn't peg the needle at the limits of either sid.e Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

> Realism in TOCA is nil! It's fun, but no more than a glorified arcade racer. > Check out the demo, it's the same as the full game but only 2 laps of one > track. Don't confuse "realism" with "simulation". Just because TOCA doesn't let you adjust shock settings, etc., doesn't mean it doesn't have a good physics model. Based on the demo, it certainly does quite well in that regard. If Codemasters were to take the game engine in TOCA to the next level, they could make an *excellent* sim out of it. As it stands, the first copy of TOCA I see on a store shelf will be coming home with me. -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

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> >It has pretty good track modelling and graphics, the AI suck, no > set-up > >options, the car behaves quite good until you start doing tight > turns. > >Traction is too good, etc. > You know, I thought traction felt 'too good' as well, but then I > watched the real thing in television and I couldn't believe the > cornering speeds. I went back to the game after the race and noted > that the cornering speeds seemed pretty close.

By stating that I found traction "too good", my reference was to the feel, not by comparison to real-life speeds. The car gives no intention of controlled sliding/four-wheel drifts. Either you stick to the line, or you spin out. And when you spin, you stop in no time. I have seen several Super touring races, I know people who race them (two drivers entering BTCC this year)The cars run on quite narrow tires, and though it doesn't look it, they slide a lot. NOT in TOCA. Considering the fact that they are front wheel drive, I also find it odd that they oversteer through 1st gear hairpins when you slam the throttle. And Believe me, turn 1 at Knockhill is not flat in fifth, ask Kelvin Burt!:) Want to philosophise? Sega Daytona is a sim. It simulates racing cars, albeit very poorly. I think a toggle is quite right here, TOCA has a lot of details that makes it an arcade game, which NASCAR, ICR GP2 etc have not, like: *No way of destroying your car when crashing *Cheat modes (Driving a Tank shooting opponents, a Pink Caddilac, Disable the AIs so you don't crash etc.) *No way of ruining the engine, wearing out the tires. I could go on picking on details, but that\s not the point. If you'd like a scale, I'd say rate realism. Arcade means nothing more than a place where there are computer games. Matt Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

OK guys! TOCA is reasonably OK at the physics, but as a game it leaves a lot to be desired. 1) the unlocking of the tracks until you do well on the previous one is plain silly! 2) no setups therefore no chance of improving your car's performance. 3) no tyre problems, no sliding, no crash damage, etc etc. 4) most importantly, it is too damn easy! After only 1 or 2 attempts at each circuit I was winning every race - and I don't consider myself to be any kind of expert.

>By stating that I found traction "too good", my reference was to the >feel, not by comparison to real-life speeds. The car gives no intention >of controlled sliding/four-wheel drifts. Either you stick to the line, >or you spin out. I disagree. I can take very many lines through the corner and not spin out. And there is definitely a sliding feel. My sense of the traction being "too good" is that when you go into a corner too hot, rather than the car pushing straight ahead when you turn the wheels, the car pushes to a point, then radically turns towards where you wanted it to go, and either magically grips or spins. This seems to depend on the bumpiness of that particular section of track, and I've often found that altering myline from the 'ideal' line to the best surfaced line makes it easier to 'feel' the traction in the corner. I watched the accident-marred Croft 1997 race on Saturday on Speedvision and I thought that the game actually modelled this pretty good. The big issue is whether or not you spin on pavement. You stop fairly quickly on pavement, but if you get off the grass, I've taken some severe cross country trips on the grass...wayyy out there. Not all the BTCC cars are front wheel drive. The Audi is 4WD. And I don't find much oversteer in 1st gear hairpins, but then I also take almost every hairpin in 2nd gear <G>. I don't take Knockhill flat out in fifth, but maybe that's just because I'm not confident enough yet. The problem is you're picking and choosing what makes the game in its entirety a 'sim'. Your criteria will differ from those of other people, so there's no absolute here. Sega Daytona is often characterized as an arcade game mainly because NO attempt was made by the developers at modelling stock car performance, in addition to various gameplay elements which sacrificed realism for arcade playability. So if I turn off damage in F1RS, ICR2 or NASCAR 2, I'm no longer driving a 'sim'? Wow. This is a major reach on your part. Game companies often put in these kind of goodies, be it a 'sim' or an 'arcade game'. This criteria is really a reach. You can't ruin the engine in GP2 or F1RS. Are they not sims? And as far as tire wear is concerned, how bad do you think these things go off in the generally short races they run? I can understand some tire wear being a nice attribute, particularly if you spin the car a lot or lock up the brakes, but I'd guess that tire wear isn't near the issue in touring cars that it is in Formula open wheel or stock car oval sims. That is *exactly* the point. You will pick 10 details and say they mean for you its not a sim. I will pick 10 details and say they mean that yes it is a sim. THAT is why this is not a toggle. My biggest problem with the terms 'sim' and 'arcade' is that 'arcade' is one of the nastiest smears you can hurl at a racing game if the developers have made a point of going for realism. You're basically saying that they failed at what they set out to do. And that one word throws the baby out with the bathwater. If the game doesn't have a great damage model, but the physics model is great -- and you believe a sim has to have a great damage model, and then claim the thing is just an arcade game, then those people that believe sim/arcade has to do with the physics engine are going to think the thing has a rotten physics engine. By simply creating an 'arcade' and a 'sim' box you simply contribute to the oversimplification of these games and misinform readers by imposing YOUR definition of a sim onto them, whether they would agree or not. Have you ever driven one of these touring cars around one of these courses? How qualified do you feel to say that the physics model isn't realistic? I know I'm not that qualified as I've never driven one. I can say what feels right and what feels wrong, but then its just my best guess. I do agree that there are many areas where TOCA seemed to just say "not important-skip it". But that does NOT mean that the game is an arcade game. It simply means that they didn't deem it necessary to simulate some aspects to the nth degree, particularly for such short races. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

>1) the unlocking of the tracks until you do well on the previous one is >plain silly! Yes, it is. Probably had something to do with co-developing it for the Playstation. At least there's a publicly available list of cheats. Unlock 'em and forget about the limitation. So? There's lots of sliding and crash damage. I would agree it seems not to affect handling much at all. Agreed. The AI qualifies much better than it races. Even when you run down the leader, its easy to do because he tends to get stuck behind lapped cars while you find an opening and sail past. The AI and qualifying definitely need a tweak. I still find it a very fun game, though. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Wow. Thanks for all that. Much better quality debate than is often found in ngs. Info and opinions all appreciated greatly. I have the 2 tck demo of TOCA - how much smoother does this play in 3dfx? P166mmx, 32meg, Millenium. Thanks

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> >1) the unlocking of the tracks until you do well on the previous one is > >plain silly! > Yes, it is. Probably had something to do with co-developing it for > the Playstation. At least there's a publicly available list of > cheats. Unlock 'em and forget about the limitation. > >2) no setups therefore no chance of improving your car's performance. > So? > >3) no tyre problems, no sliding, no crash damage, etc etc. > There's lots of sliding and crash damage. I would agree it seems not > to affect handling much at all. > >4) most importantly, it is too damn easy! After only 1 or 2 attempts at each > >circuit I was winning every race - and I don't consider myself to be any > >kind of expert. > Agreed. The AI qualifies much better than it races. Even when you > run down the leader, its easy to do because he tends to get stuck > behind lapped cars while you find an opening and sail past. The AI > and qualifying definitely need a tweak. > I still find it a very fun game, though. > Randy > Randy Magruder > Contributing Reviewer > Digital Sportspage > http://www.digitalsports.com

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> >By stating that I found traction "too good", my reference was to the > >feel, not by comparison to real-life speeds. The car gives no > intention > >of controlled sliding/four-wheel drifts. Either you stick to the > line, > >or you spin out. > I disagree. I can take very many lines through the corner and not spin > out. And there is definitely a sliding feel. My sense of the > traction being "too good" is that when you go into a corner too hot, > rather than the car pushing straight ahead when you turn the wheels, > the car pushes to a point, then radically turns towards where you > wanted it to go, and either magically grips or spins. This seems to > depend on the bumpiness of that particular section of track, and I've > often found that altering myline from the 'ideal' line to the best > surfaced line makes it easier to 'feel' the traction in the corner.

Must admit this is what I also have found, esp. at Snetterton. Yup, but try to spin your car (a 1000 kilos car) on the tarmac, time the decceleration from say 120-0, and see how realistic it is. Yup, the grass is quite realistic, and the gravel really good. The Audi was 4wd, yes, the BMW was RWD, but the rest were, and now all are, Front wheel drive:) Right! But you have the option! In Toca one starts with settings at maniac, and can up them to sci-fi, pardon my coice of words:) ?Examples? Haven't tried F1RS yet, but I' ve blown engines, gearboxes etc in GP2 several times. No, you can't over-rev like in NASCAR, but I've had nice looking smoke puffs develop into bonfires... Well, considering that all the major teams have been tyre testing At Jerez, Spain the whole winter, and the fact that tyre wear is even more visible in a FrWD car, I think it should be. If you go to the races, these guys have qual tyres, and several compounds to choose from in the races (also several brands). The first few laps are always great, because the front tires heat up really quickly, and the rears don't, so there are many hairy moments.. I have been to most of them, walked 'em, ridden as a passenger at Brands and Donington, I have been racing cars (Saloons) for three years, including a Volvo S40 (not up to SuperTouring standard :)) Got all season reviews since '92 (party!) I see your point, but I feel your first post was a bit harsh, you seem like you don't want any negative criticism. I doubt Codemasters are facing doom because of me......<g> Gotta go, Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

>I disagree. I can take very many lines through the corner and not spin >out. And there is definitely a sliding feel. My sense of the >traction being "too good" is that when you go into a corner too hot, >rather than the car pushing straight ahead when you turn the wheels, >the car pushes to a point, then radically turns towards where you >wanted it to go, and either magically grips or spins. This is something I mentioned in the review of TOCA that I did, which unfortunately seems to have been lost in the SRN reshuffle and has never surfaced :-( The "grip/slip" decision seems to be just that, an on-off switch, and in fact you can go in hot to a corner and apply correction before the car has even started to slide and you'll make it through okay. Having lapped Knockhill many times I'd say it isn't particularly well modelled in TOCA, but well up to the standard I'd expect given the accuracy of the rest of the product. Okay, it isn't flat in fifth in real life, but IMO the point of TOCA was not to recreate every detail of BTCC racing, but to capture the atmosphere and feeling of the race. The bumping and barging is done very well, as is the need to have the car on the limit at all times. Following on from what you said, this is a commercial decision. If Playstation customers won't buy it without cheat codes or Pink cadillacs then get 'em in there. AFAI recall NASCAR2 had some additional stuff in there on the PSX. TOCA is far from being a sim, but then it's a long way from Outrun and Daytona USA as well. FWIW I think it's really great fun, and probably the most enjoyable racer I have that is not an out and out sim. It certainly beats stuff like Ultimate Race into a***ed hat - what a waste of time that download was. Cheers! John

>> So if I turn off damage in F1RS, ICR2 or NASCAR 2, I'm no longer >> driving a 'sim'? Wow. >Right! But you have the option! In Toca one starts with settings at >maniac, and can up them to sci-fi, pardon my coice of words:) Many people would disagree that turning off damage means you're no longer driving a sim: me for starters. To me the physics model is orders of magnititude more important than damage modelling, which often gets turned off anyway in many SIMS because of less than ideal AI. Go to dejanews and lookup the word "cheat" and "sim" and you oughtta score some hits. Well, you're just demonstrating to me how relative 'simness' is. Some people would argue if you couldn't overrev you don't have a real sim. You choose to believe that having engines and gearboxes fail at random is enough. No, not at all. Criticize away, particularly when you have experience in the real cars, but I think just saying "oh this is just an arcade game" is not warranted for this title, and I think it assumes that everyone else agrees with your criteria for a sim or an arcade game. Randy

>This is something I mentioned in the review of TOCA that I did, which >unfortunately seems to have been lost in the SRN reshuffle and has >never surfaced :-( I'll be writing a review...it'll get noted :) I think this was a lot of the thrust of my post. sim/arcade is not a toggle, its a scale. You clearly put it somewhere in the middle of the scale, which is probably where most people would put it. It qualifies as a sim in some respects, and as an arcade game in others. Randy

Well, got me thinking...there are no "arcade" games in my shelf, If I reconed that Toca was a pure arcade game, it wouldn't be in my collection of "sims":) After all, it cost me NOK 500, which translates to 50 GBP, or about 80 US bucks.. When the game was released here in europe, we had a long discussion on realism. I think most people, like me, have been positive. I just hope it sells really well, so Codemasters could use their obvious skills to give us even better racing-games! I Anybody got any experience in Toca multiplayer? Matt -- Matthew Birger Knutsen Cheek Racing Cars (http://home.sn.no/~kareknut) "Racing cars is like dancing with a chainsaw" -Cale Yarborough

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>> >And when you spin, you stop in no time. I have seen >> >several Super touring races, I know people who race them (two >> drivers >> >entering BTCC this year)The cars run on quite narrow tires, and >> though >> >it doesn't look it, they slide a lot. >snip > Yup, but try to spin your car (a 1000 kilos car) on the tarmac, time > the decceleration from say 120-0, and see how realistic it is. Yup, > the grass is quite realistic, and the gravel really good.

I remember throwing my datto s/w at around 100 on the road, seemed to stop in 10 metres. Um, so that setting in F1RS does nothing eh (FAILURES - Engine Explosion YES/NO)Not to mention gearbox failure, cooking brakes, exhaust broken etc etc etc.

I've just read your "in-depth review" and I must say it contains some of the most idiotic comments I have ever read. One minute you talk about the similarities between the BTCC and American Stock Car racing (of which there are very, very few), then you say that the tracks in TOCA all look very much alike!! My God, how much more alike can you get than a season full of OVALS!!!!!!!!!! You also make the point that BTCC cars don't sound like the deep throaty rumble of American Stock Cars. Well, let's see, there's a reason for that and it's the same reason that they don't sound like baboons on heat....yes, you've guessed it....they are NOT American Stock Cars. Why don't you take a look at the official BTCC site (www.btcc.co.uk) and see how unalike they actually are. Best of all though, you complain that in the game the cars slow down very quickly when you drive into the gravel. Where have you been? What do you think all that gravel is there for? That is precisely the point of it, to slow cars down quickly if they go off. Might I suggest that you do a bit of research into the relevant subject before writing one of these "in-depth reviews" in the future and stop assuming that no-one outside of America actually uses the internet for game reviews.