CPR on 20/20

I dont know how many of you watched the special on Bill Gates on 20/20 Friday night.. but they showed a clip of CPR. Showing how they have someone rigged with sensors simulating a pit stop to import into the game. They then show a clip of the game... MOVING AT ABOUT 5 FPS!!! I just laughed... it was choppy as hell!! Now that showed the true nature of the game!! Of course they threw in that it was a "best seller for Microsoft". Good interview though. Gates is a fascinating man. Scott -- ///////////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Scott B. Husted // // // // [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] // // // // // // // // ICQ# 4395450 // // // /////////////////////////////////////////////////

Yeah, that "Best-Seller" part was the kicker for me. Laughed for nearly 5 minutes.

>...the special on Bill Gates on 20/20...but they showed a clip of CPR...Of course they threw in that it was a "best seller for Microsoft".>> Free prime-time advertising for the "greatest auto racing sim ever created" -- Bill knows how to market! Take that clip and the glowing reviews of CPR by the mass-market magazines (which are pristinely objective, of course -- no one could ever be swayed to bias by the pitiful sort of advertising budget a mom 'n' pop joint like Microsoft has to work with), and put it up against the nattering nabobs in here -- well, truth and justice ALWAYS prevail, right? If every person who ever lurked in this NG were to have some sort of bizarre alien mind-meld, and they wrote to Microsoft en masse saying what a piece of ***CPR is (I'm fantasizing, OK?), and if they didn't FIX it, they'd never buy another Microsoft product as long as they lived -- imagine the effect it would have on Microsoft: absolutely zero, zilch, zed, zowie, nada... As long as MS has the loyal and supportive mainstream of gamers -- the fast-twitch Duke Nukem this week/Mayhem the next/Super-Slasher *** 'n' ***Mario Brothers the week after -- to go out and plunk down their lawn-mowing money for whatever hyper-adrenal trendo-schlock parent-shock diversion-of-the hour the software companies grind out for them, why should they even give people interested in accurate simulations a second thought? Obviously, they haven't. We will now join Bill in a heartfelt chorus of that old hymn, "Bringing In The Sheaves"... Bart (betcha this don't make it either) Brown

Fascinating in the sense that he apparently successfully assumes that most people watching TV are incredibly naive. He puts on this innocent act on Tv that he's just an innocent little person trying to make the world a better place. He absolutely understands the concept of leverage and how to use it to wipe a competitor off the planet. Putting IE40 in Win95/98 has nothing to do with innovating the operating system. Its all about: "beat *THIS* distribution mechanism, Netscape!" Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Attaboy, Randy! Bart

>Well, the issue isn't really the quality of the product, is it? If I think it is. I have IE4.0 because there is nothing that netscape gives me that IE4.0 doesn't. Plus Outlook Express is a fantastic email/news client. I certainly wouldn't use IE4.0 is it didn't kick some ass. Plus it is free. You can't beat that. Since I use the Contentric Network as an ISP I get netscape free (as part of the package). I didn't even consider it. IE 4.0 is a decent product, and I could care less if people think Bill will rule the world :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Netscape Navigator is not only free now; the code has also been freed -- something that MS is not too likely to do with IE. So what? Give it about 4-6 months and I think you'll see. Bart Brown

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> I dont know how many of you watched the special on Bill Gates on 20/20 > Friday night.. but they showed a clip of CPR. Showing how they have > someone rigged with sensors simulating a pit stop to import into the > game. They then show a clip of the game... MOVING AT ABOUT 5 FPS!!! > I just laughed... it was choppy as hell!! Now that showed the true > nature of the game!! Of course they threw in that it was a "best seller > for Microsoft". > Good interview though. Gates is a fascinating man.

"Was" a good seller? Have people woken up already and completely stopped buying it? :))

>Putting IE40 in Win95/98 has nothing to do with innovating the >operating system. Its all about: "beat *THIS* distribution >mechanism, Netscape!" Undoubtedly - the wierd thing is however, I'd use IE4 (or IE3 for that matter) in any case. It's just a much more intuitive product. Same goes for Office - a whole lotta hype and hoopla, but it's a really solid and excellent product. Maybe CPR99 will be also? Cheers! John

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>>Putting IE40 in Win95/98 has nothing to do with innovating the >>operating system. Its all about: "beat *THIS* distribution >>mechanism, Netscape!" >Undoubtedly - the wierd thing is however, I'd use IE4 (or IE3 for that >matter) in any case. It's just a much more intuitive product. Same >goes for Office - a whole lotta hype and hoopla, but it's a really >solid and excellent product.

Well, the issue isn't really the quality of the product, is it? If IE4 is so wonderful that everyone will want it, why not sell it through normal distribution mechanisms and let the market decide? The problem is, Netscape had the big marketshare, and Microsoft could afford to give the thing away and not worry about making money on the deal because they are not funded by browser sales, but by OS and other application software. Netscape didn't have that kind of luxury, did they? So again, the word is "leverage". If Bill is so confident in the superiority of his products, let him charge for them. If he's right, he'll still win the browser war. If he's wrong, he won't. Again, let the market decide, not the loss-leader distribution system. It makes me question whether Bill even believes in his own software, since he can't seem to get away from using OS leverage to knock out competitors. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

>>Well, the issue isn't really the quality of the product, is it? If >I think it is. I have IE4.0 because there is nothing that netscape gives >me that IE4.0 doesn't. Plus Outlook Express is a fantastic email/news >client. I certainly wouldn't use IE4.0 is it didn't kick some ass. Plus >it is free. You can't beat that. You're right. You can't beat that. Exactly Bill's point. Microsoft could afford to lose money on IE4 by bundling it with a cashcow like Win95/98. Netscape has no such leverage. Even if Netscape matched IE4/Outlook express feature for feature, Microsoft would still win on price & distribution, wouldn't it? Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Hi Randy, One the one hand I see what your saying but, isn't that the point or benefit of becoming very successful in a business climate? I mean I understand that Netscape cant hope to compete with MS in size or any other way but, isn't this similar to what we see when say a Wal-Mart opens in a town like where I live? They did and killed a bunch of long time retailers who just couldn't compete for whatever reasons. Be it mass buying power etc. Don't get me wrong I think it really was a pity as many of those older stores had much better service and quality of product IMO. I would like to hear more views on all this as I am really interested in why this is all going on. I am not so well informed on the whole Justice Dept./MS story. I know as a contractor almost all of the work I get it due to having the lowest bid. Of course I cant due it for free to knock off my competition, but I can throw in some "extras" as I usually do. Are these things that I sited similar to the I.E4 or am I missing something? Just curious, Cya, Mike

>You're right. You can't beat that. Exactly Bill's point. Microsoft >could afford to lose money on IE4 by bundling it with a cashcow like >Win95/98. Netscape has no such leverage. Even if Netscape matched >IE4/Outlook express feature for feature, Microsoft would still win on >price & distribution, wouldn't it? Not if Netscape only matched them, no it wouldn't. It's a bit like AMD trying to oust Intel from their *** position - as long as you come up with products that are "as good" or "almost equal" you have no chance. When you're chasing you need to offer more or better in at least one aspect of the product, and right now Netscape are arguably behind on price, availability, image and product quality. Cheers! John

Not quite similar. IE4.0 is a MS product which they give away free. You would have to give everyone (who wants it) a free construction something or other. Like manufacturing your own track lighting and giving it out free no questions asked. I doubt you would have the financial resources for that. Do you? I could use some :-) -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Mike, I think the whole justice dept. issue revolves around what they call "predatory pricing". MS can afford to distribute, for free, a great product. Netscape can not. Therefore, MS must be trying to drive Netscape out of business. I think this is an invalid argument. MS can afford to give IE4.0 away because there is so much money in their other core lines of business. The entire Back Office suite sales (SQL server, SMS, Proxy Server, etc.) allows them to give away a product like IE4.0. Netscape also offers a similar suite of software that pound-for-pound isn't up to***with the MS line. The real issue here is survival in a competitive marketplace. If Netscape hadn't rested on their laurels, they might be in a better position than they are in now. It is ridiculous to blame all of Netscape's problems on MS. When Bill Gates started MS, he transformed the Information Revolution. 90% of the technologies we all enjoy today stem directly and indirectly from the products MS has created. No one handed them the divine rights to rule this next generation of the computing age. They earned it with solid products and an intelligent marketing plan. MS fought and is still fighting the survival of the fittest. Look at IBM *** in the 80s. What are they doing today? As far as the full scope of the DOJ investigation goes, I again think it is unfounded and unnecessary. Bundling IE4.0 with Win98 or Win95 should be no big deal. Every COMPAQ computer also comes with AOL installed and you don't hear any whining about that... -/- Walk Walker BAMotorsports A Premium Sim-Racing Team

I use Netscape Communicator and didnt pay anything for it. Very few people do. I happen to be an IE convert. I have nothing bad to say about IE4 except the integrated desktop is a BIG OL DOG. If you dont select that option... IE4 is fine. I just prefer Netscape Communicator. It works flawlessly and I like the interfaces. Its all about preferences now =) Scott

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> >Well, the issue isn't really the quality of the product, is it? If > I think it is. I have IE4.0 because there is nothing that netscape gives > me that IE4.0 doesn't. Plus Outlook Express is a fantastic email/news > client. I certainly wouldn't use IE4.0 is it didn't kick some ass. Plus > it is free. You can't beat that. Since I use the Contentric Network as > an ISP I get netscape free (as part of the package). I didn't even > consider it. IE 4.0 is a decent product, and I could care less if > people think Bill will rule the world :-) > -- > Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

-- ************************************* * * * Scott B. Husted * * * * [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] * * * * * * * * ICQ# 4395450 * * * *************************************

Netscape is not behind. They still have the larger market share. The price is now the same. Netscape has a great image and the Quality IS there. It DOES all come down to marketing. The more IE gets press.... the more it will eat away at Netscapes lead. There is so little differentiation in the products now. There are differences... but they relate more to preferences than differentiation. Netscape will always have the Microsoft haters and Microsoft will continue to get a large number of new computer users because of IE being loaded on so many machines. Microsoft Definately has the marketing edge big time. However, I dont see it in the product being superior at all. Scott

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> >You're right. You can't beat that. Exactly Bill's point. Microsoft > >could afford to lose money on IE4 by bundling it with a cashcow like > >Win95/98. Netscape has no such leverage. Even if Netscape matched > >IE4/Outlook express feature for feature, Microsoft would still win on > >price & distribution, wouldn't it? > Not if Netscape only matched them, no it wouldn't. It's a bit like AMD > trying to oust Intel from their *** position - as long as you > come up with products that are "as good" or "almost equal" you have no > chance. When you're chasing you need to offer more or better in at > least one aspect of the product, and right now Netscape are arguably > behind on price, availability, image and product quality. > Cheers! > John

-- ************************************* * * * Scott B. Husted * * * * [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] * * * * * * * * ICQ# 4395450 * * * *************************************

today? Yes Walker I agree, it does seem like this is all the fruits of their labors. If the DOJ came into every business sector and leveled the playing field every time someone got ahead. Would there be any reason for companies to strive to produce better products than their competitors? Probably not I guess. Hey on a side note, someone who "should know" told me that last year MSs total revenue didn't even add up to IBM profit. Could this be true? Sounds impossible I wonder. Yup, hmm Mike

Hi Greg, Well I am not too sure Greg. Since an I.E. is probably running within a MS operating system. Wouldn't it be more like me giving away a trac light since I owned the electric company? Mike P.s Nope sorry I sure dont have the financial resources you mentioned. ;-)

I think the issue lies in the fact that IE4 is NOT part of Windows. The risk, as I see it, is where does it go or stop ?? Ok... IE4 is a necessary part of Windows OS. Whats next ?? Is MS Word a necessary part of windows OS ??? Excel ?? Publisher ?? Money ?? When does the line get drawn to what exactly IS the OS and what exactly is an application?? Just my thoughts. I like MS products and dont have a problem with MS. Ok.. maybe CPR should be enought to convict MS ;) Seriously... I think there does need to be some clarification on this issue and not just a witch hunt to "Get Microsoft". Scott

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> > When Bill Gates started MS, he transformed the Information Revolution. > 90% > > of the technologies we all enjoy today stem directly and indirectly from > the > > products MS has created. No one handed them the divine rights to rule > this > > next generation of the computing age. They earned it with solid products > and > > an intelligent marketing plan. MS fought and is still fighting the > survival > > of the fittest. Look at IBM *** in the 80s. What are they doing > today? > Yes Walker I agree, it does seem like this is all the fruits of their > labors. If the DOJ came into every business sector and leveled the playing > field every time someone got ahead. Would there be any reason for companies > to strive to produce better products than their competitors? Probably not I > guess. Hey on a side note, someone who "should know" told me that last year > MSs total revenue didn't even add up to IBM profit. Could this be true? > Sounds impossible I wonder. > > As far as the full scope of the DOJ investigation goes, I again think it > is > > unfounded and unnecessary. Bundling IE4.0 with Win98 or Win95 should be > no > > big deal. Every COMPAQ computer also comes with AOL installed and you > don't > > hear any whining about that... > Yup, hmm > Mike

-- ************************************* * * * Scott B. Husted * * * * [link lost in import: /~sbhusted] * * * * * * * * ICQ# 4395450 * * * *************************************

Well Bill does and that is why everyone gets so e***d about his 'tactics'. I read he has dozens of people working on IE and is not making a dime from it (basically). -- Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

I didn't say they were, I said they were "arguably" behind - it being an expression of opinion. I'm not daft enough to state my opinion as fact in this group, especially on a subject people get so worked up about :-) Personally I much prefer IE4 and _do_ think it's a better product, not purely preference. Cheers! John

John, Understood. Just as I think the same about Netscape as you do IE4. Again... Im not an attacker of MS other than CPR =) However, for many of the new computer purchasers who no very little about the web if at all, all they care about in general is 3 things. Can I "see" the web?? Can I send and receive email?? Can I read and post newsgroups ?? All 3 are YES for both Netscape and Microsoft. Now IF Microsoft forced all retailers to carry IE as part of the Windows OS.. that is unfair competition I think because a majority of new users will just use whats there. Now.. as they progress along the learning curve... each will develop preferences and opinions based on experiences with one browser or the other or both! I then think it comes down to personal preference for those individuals. Just my .02 of thought =) Scott

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> >Netscape is not behind. > I didn't say they were, I said they were "arguably" behind - it being > an expression of opinion. I'm not daft enough to state my opinion as > fact in this group, especially on a subject people get so worked up > about :-) > Personally I much prefer IE4 and _do_ think it's a better product, not > purely preference. > Cheers! > John

-- ************************************* * * * Scott B. Husted * * * * http://www.itw.com/~sbhusted * * * * * * * * ICQ# 4395450 * * * *************************************

As we continue go to hellbent off topic <G> of becoming very successful in a business climate? << Benefit for whom? any other way but, isn't this similar to what we see when say a Wal-Mart opens in a town like where I live? They did and killed a bunch of long time retailers who just couldn't compete for whatever reasons. >> Its not quite the same situation. The main difference is that computers & software can't neatly be compared to many other industries. The need for interoperability and compatibility is so high that it places constraints on anyone competing in that marketplace. The same is not true of most other commercial products. It might be if other standards evolved as rapidly as software does, but they don't. Therefore, the company that drives the standards and happens to play in competing spaces tends to get a jump on everyone else in the industry. Microsoft likes to say that laws shouldn't be written to benefit its competitors, but rather its consumers. That's all well and good as long as consumers are perfectly happy with the software Microsoft produces, but what if Microsoft drives companies like Netscape out of business via its distribution mechanisms of competing products, then its own product quality falls rapidly (Many CPR owners would doubtless say this already has happened <G>). Now you have no one out there to mount a challenge. So in the short term, the law appears to be benefitting the competitor, but in the long run, it benefits the consumer as well. In the case of Walmart, the problem isn't so much that Walmart is losing money but that as part of a national chain it can buy things in larger quantity and cheaper products, then pass along the savings to its customers. Its a sad situation for private retailers, but I don't know what can really be done about that. A more fitting comparison would be if Walmart were losing money on all of its products in order to drive its competitors out of business, but didn't have to worry because they also owned another huge conglomerate which was supplying the funding for the losses sustained by Walmart. That's what you have at Microsoft. The IE4 product line doesn't make money by itself. lowest bid. Of course I cant due it for free to knock off my competition, >> But if you could, wouldn't that be wrong? sited similar to the I.E4 or am I missing something? >> Again, the problem is the operating system connection. With marketshare at about 90% (I've heard different #'s, but its really close), Microsoft effectively has a monopoly on operating systems. Antitrust law is designed to benefit customers by ensuring that they have choices, and that means by promoting competition. To be a devil's advocate on this one, how can Netscape possibly make money in the long term when everything they do gets done by Microsoft and then bundled free with an operating system that has a virtual monopoly on the desktop? Microsoft memos obtained by the DOJ refer to neutralizing Java and Netscape, and they do that with "embrace and extend" strategies (their term). They grab Java, tie it to Windows, so that its no longer "write once, run anywhere", and then boom - Java is neutralized as a PLATFORM, regardless of how successful it becomes as a language, and is no longer a threat to Microsoft. Netscape tried putting everything in a browser, making it a virtual desktop environment where Java could run, and on any platform. Microsoft then ships a very Windows-tied IE4, makes it free, and then boom .. Netscape neutralized. So Netscape is forced to give away the browser (since they obviously can't SELL it anymore), lay off a bunch of employees, and try to find other ways to sell software, since they do not have a huge operating system cash cow to write off their browser expenditures. The legality of this is best decided by lawyers. However, from a simple common sense standpoint of what is right and what is wrong, I believe its just wrong, and really unnecessary if IE4 is so darn wonderful that people would buy it and use it anyway. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

I dont mean to sound like a wisecracker but<ggg> well I kind of have to say the consumer to some extent as they get both Netscape and IE4 free now. But I also see many of you points. This is the main point you make that I didn't consider. Seems valid. I guess your right but this is the most scary Doh Lawyers <ggg> Thanks for your views, Mike

If Microsoft is supposedly trying to give the customer such a better operating system, how come their caring attitude doesn't extend to including free Office '95 built in to Windows '95? How come I have to pay extra for a spreadsheet and database? I'll tell you why, the only reason IE4.0 is free it to drive Netscape out of business. Once Netscape is dead and buried all the people who now don't see what is wrong with Microsoft's tactics will be complaining when it is no longer free and they have to shell out $79 for MS Internet Explorer'99, just like all other Microsoft software like Money, Word, Excel, and Access. I recently downloaded Microsoft Money 98 trial, about 10 megs download. I go to install and it refuses to install unless I have IE installed on my system, yes - no choice to use Netscape or even to install without the Web features. Deleted it despite being a happy user of Money '95, what the hell should my choice in Web Browser have to do with what Financial Software I use? Microsoft will not be getting my money for financial software, I am instead using Quicken which lets me utilize it without forcing use of IE. One other thing that people don't realize, some of us use UNIX workstations at work, Netscape makes available every version of Netscape in UNIX versions for linux, AIX, OSF etc. does Microsoft extend it's so called "concern" for giving users a better browser to UNIX operating systems? nope, once Netscape is dead, Microsoft will also have killed the provider of modern Web Browsers for the Operating Systems that compete with it's own windows OS. Anyhow, didn't mean to go on so long about this issue here on R.A.S. but I think a lot of people are missing some of the different points of view on this, I have, by the way tried out IE4.0 , was forced to install it to try online racing with CPR on Microsoft's Internet GameZone which also refuses to allow access with Netscape last time I tried, yet another symptom of Microsoft's cheezy tactics with regards to IE. Cheers. --John -- *kludger AT zipcon DOT com* | ICQ #7522564 contact me at: Seattle, Washington USA. | http://wwp.mirabilis.com/7522564

>Mmmmm, but where you draw the line? Adobe sue Microsoft because >Paintbrush migh stop people buying Photoshop? All the anti-virus >stuff, disk-backup, compression, DUN, whatever. I don't see why a >browser shouldn't be part of an OS - I'd quite like to be able to buy I pretty much agree. How can anyone say what is part of the MS Windows operating system? Next thing you know someone will object that the Filemanager is bundled with the OS. I think it is MS's OS, and no one really has the right to tell them what should be part of it (or not). -- Header address intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Mmmmm, but where you draw the line? Adobe sue Microsoft because Paintbrush migh stop people buying Photoshop? All the anti-virus stuff, disk-backup, compression, DUN, whatever. I don't see why a browser shouldn't be part of an OS - I'd quite like to be able to buy a new system and POW there's everything I need to use the internet. Not having to download another browser, e-mail prog, news prog any time I have to reinstall from my Win95 CD. Perhaps DOJ should insist that both are put on the Win95 distribution CD, and the user offered a choice during installation :) Cheers! John

% Looking at this from a different perspective how many of you are using % the MS TCP/IP stack to use the Internet? If the courts say that IE4 is % not an integrated product what is going to stop NetManage and other IP % software firms from sueing MS to unbundle the IP protocol, or what about % Symantic for including Defrag? This case could have serious % ramifications that the DOJ and consumers have not completely thought out. The problem arises when certain software (so far mostly Microsoft based) will only run when you have Microsoft's IE 4.0 installed. However, most software I know doesn't care whether I am using MS's TCP/IP stacks or their Defrag utilities. What concerns me (and others) is that Microsoft is slowly building an OS so that their software will only run with when other "software" is now a vital part of that OS. Microsoft software engineers are talented enough to build an OS that fulfills the end result without requiring IE 4.0, but that is not Microsoft's total goal. Earlier in this thread someone mentioned Paintbrush, the arguement doesn't hold water. Paintbrush is a utility and is not a "required" component of the OS. The DOJ and the courts view IE 4.0 as an application or utility and Microsoft's insistance of it becoming a vital part of the OS to be preditory. The same would be true if Microsoft made the Defrag, Paintbrush, Wordpad, etc. an intergrated component of their OS. I see nothing wrong with Microsoft attempting to build a "better mousetrap" (i.e., IE). What I find offensive is that all new houses built, will only work when this mousetrap is a vital component in its construction. It really ticks my cats off when their aren't any mice to play with! ;-) -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

>Looking at this from a different perspective how many of you are using >the MS TCP/IP stack to use the Internet? If the courts say that IE4 is >not an integrated product what is going to stop NetManage and other IP >software firms from sueing MS to unbundle the IP protocol, or what about >Symantic for including Defrag? First of all, Netscape did not sue Microsoft. The DOJ did. That means that the Justice Department saw something they felt was a violation of anti-trust laws. Second, there are a ton of little applications in Windows that no one has ever objected to (Write, Paintbrush, Calculator, etc). Their intent was never to compete with or eliminate competition from other companies who publish full featured word processors, graphics packages ,etc but rather to give some basic functionality in that area to the OS owner. IE4 is rather different. Look at the comparison: Wordpad/Write vs. Microsoft Word/Corel Wordperfect Paintbrush vs. Photoshop Terminal vs. Procomm Plus IE4 vs. Netscape Which one is different than the rest? Clearly the latter, because its a complete, commercial size/quality product being packed in free with the OS. Obviously, Microsoft could at some point start putting Word into Win95, but they don't need to. They have nearly the same monopoly in office suites that they do in Operating Systems. They also provide OEM Office Suites for sale with computers, so most mail order companies also give you Office or Home Essentials. So Microsoft does not feel any compelling need to capture marketshare or destroy a competitor in the word processing market. Therefore, Wordpad continues to be the 'word processor' we get for free with Windows. It is sufficiently functional to do some casual writing, but not a full featured word processor. For that, you've got to shell out for Word. So, I don't have a problem with SOME Internet browsing capabilities being bundled with Win95. I would prefer that it be something with limited functionality, features and footprint...this justifies comparing it to Wordpad, Calculator, Paintbrush etc. It means the customer who just needs a simple browser might be happy, but if they want the full blown thing they decide between the commercial quality browsers (including the full IE4). This leaves customers with the choice without depriving competitors of the ability to compete in the market. So I simply ask you this: Why did Microsoft feel it necessary to include the full blown IE4 software with Windows?! Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

I understand what you are saying, but I would be real happy if they incorporated works or word or some great word processor into win95. And as far as the browsers are concerned I don't care if they put it there or not, if I don't want to use it, then I won't. The thing I don't like is something that another person mentioned, that certain things wouldn't work unless you have ie4. I really don't like that, but since the only thing I have used that required ie4 was cart, and I took that back awhile ago, I just use Netscape. I didn't take Cart back, just because of this, but it didn't help that I only got partial functionality for something I paid full price for. Even though the only thing lacking was the stupid bio's that I could get off www.cart.com using Netscape. :-)

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> >Looking at this from a different perspective how many of you are using > >the MS TCP/IP stack to use the Internet? If the courts say that IE4 is > >not an integrated product what is going to stop NetManage and other IP > >software firms from sueing MS to unbundle the IP protocol, or what about > >Symantic for including Defrag? > First of all, Netscape did not sue Microsoft. The DOJ did. That > means that the Justice Department saw something they felt was a > violation of anti-trust laws. Second, there are a ton of little > applications in Windows that no one has ever objected to (Write, > Paintbrush, Calculator, etc). Their intent was never to compete with > or eliminate competition from other companies who publish full > featured word processors, graphics packages ,etc but rather to give > some basic functionality in that area to the OS owner. IE4 is rather > different. Look at the comparison: > Wordpad/Write vs. Microsoft Word/Corel Wordperfect > Paintbrush vs. Photoshop > Terminal vs. Procomm Plus > IE4 vs. Netscape > Which one is different than the rest? Clearly the latter, because its > a complete, commercial size/quality product being packed in free with > the OS. Obviously, Microsoft could at some point start putting Word > into Win95, but they don't need to. They have nearly the same > monopoly in office suites that they do in Operating Systems. They > also provide OEM Office Suites for sale with computers, so most mail > order companies also give you Office or Home Essentials. So Microsoft > does not feel any compelling need to capture marketshare or destroy a > competitor in the word processing market. Therefore, Wordpad > continues to be the 'word processor' we get for free with Windows. It > is sufficiently functional to do some casual writing, but not a full > featured word processor. For that, you've got to shell out for Word. > So, I don't have a problem with SOME Internet browsing capabilities > being bundled with Win95. I would prefer that it be something with > limited functionality, features and footprint...this justifies > comparing it to Wordpad, Calculator, Paintbrush etc. It means the > customer who just needs a simple browser might be happy, but if they > want the full blown thing they decide between the commercial quality > browsers (including the full IE4). This leaves customers with the > choice without depriving competitors of the ability to compete in the > market. So I simply ask you this: Why did Microsoft feel it > necessary to include the full blown IE4 software with Windows?! > Randy > Randy Magruder > Contributing Reviewer > Digital Sportspage > http://www.digitalsports.com

-- Thank You Marc Johnson Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside a dog, it is too dark to read -Mark Twain

> When Bill Gates started MS, he transformed the Information Revolution. 90% > of the technologies we all enjoy today stem directly and indirectly from the > products MS has created. No one handed them the divine rights to rule this > next generation of the computing age. They earned it with solid products and > an intelligent marketing plan. MS fought and is still fighting the survival > of the fittest. Look at IBM *** in the 80s. What are they doing today? OHHHH PLEASE!!!!!!! I will NOT deny that Bill is a sharp cookie but IBM made him what he is today, if they had decided to use another OS say CPM (like they were thinking of doing but wanted the control over the product) for their PC then NO one would even know who Bill Gates is today. Before the advent of the PC IBM was the Microsoft of the computer world, and yes they were being sued all the time also. At the time all Microsoft did was DOS, companys like Lotus, Wordperfect and many fine companys furnished the applictions software that made DOS work! Bill did NOT transform the information revolution! Once Bill figured he had the control then he could ram rod all his apps down our throats. He was clever, he knew what he had and he took control of the market, but in the begining he was in the right place at the right time. -- It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. -- Andrew Jackson

I was saying the only thing Cart needs ie4 or actually I think it can use ie3 also is for the driver biographies. I am not sure what you mean opposed to netscape, but you can't access the driver bios, the driving school, or the Zone using Netscape. These things didn't really hamper my enjoyment of the game, what little there was, I was just talking about not getting every feature.

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> Hi Marc, > Just out of curiosity what is this your describing? Also I > have read a few notes about needing IE4.0 to enjoy Cart and yet I dont have > 4.0. Do you folks mean all I.E.s as opposed to Netscape? Cya, Mike > > Even though the only thing lacking was the stupid bio's that I could get > off > > www.cart.com using Netscape. :-)

-- Thank You Marc Johnson Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside a dog, it is too dark to read -Mark Twain

Hi Marc, Just out of curiosity what is this your describing? Also I have read a few notes about needing IE4.0 to enjoy Cart and yet I dont have 4.0. Do you folks mean all I.E.s as opposed to Netscape? Cya, Mike

>I recently downloaded Microsoft Money 98 trial, about 10 megs download. >I go to install and it refuses to install unless I have IE installed on >my system, yes - no choice to use Netscape or even to install without the >Web features. Now _THAT_ I hate. No Zone without IE, not MS-Money without IE. They are promoted as working on the internet, but actually only with MS software. I'm against that, and if I wasn't using IE that alond would convince me to buy Quicken and not bother about IE4 or MS products. Cheers! John

>Bill did NOT transform the information >revolution! Once Bill figured he had the control then he could ram rod >all his apps down our throats. He was clever, he knew what he had and >he took control of the market, but in the begining he was in the right >place at the right time. A bit offtopic, but did you see the news from Belgium tonight? Bill Gates being hit sqaure in the face with a cream pie (by a local "prankser" know for such activities towards celebs) right on camera. It was one of the funniest things I've seen in a long time! Joe

I agree that he was in the right place at the right time and nothing more. However, if you deny that the advent of Windows and its common api's has changed the face of the pc world, you are mistaken. I'm not trying to make Bill sound like God, I'm just giving proper credit where due. MS is the Information revolution. How many homes did IBM hit with their PC? Maybe a few million? How many homes had MS hit with Windows? 100s of Millions. -/- Walk Walker BAMotorsports A Premium Sim-Racing Team

I agree. Bill Gates and Microsoft have no doubt revolutionized the PC/Software Industry and have earned their place in history. I admire Bill Gates intellectual prowess and Microsofts business presence. However... I believe they are trying to overstep the bounds of fair business practices when it comes to packaging IE with Windows. Just a side note... I think it was a disgrace that people threw cake in Bill Gates face. Thats just disrespectful and a sad commentary on those individuals. Also... I read today in the Wall Street Journal that Netscape is considering selling part or all of its company. Nothing is certain, but they entertaining offers and looking for some strategic maneuvering to counteract Microsofts browser marketing blitz. I happen to love Communicator. I have nothing against IE, I just prefer Netscape is all. Microsoft should be ASHAMED of its release of CPR! Scott

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> I agree that he was in the right place at the right time and nothing more. > However, if you deny that the advent of Windows and its common api's has > changed the face of the pc world, you are mistaken. I'm not trying to make > Bill sound like God, I'm just giving proper credit where due. MS is the > Information revolution. How many homes did IBM hit with their PC? Maybe a > few million? How many homes had MS hit with Windows? 100s of Millions. > -/- Walk Walker > BAMotorsports > A Premium Sim-Racing Team

-- ************************************* * * * Scott B. Husted * * * * http://www.itw.com/~sbhusted * * * * * * * * ICQ# 4395450 * * * *************************************

Rehi Marc, I see, I had heard about the Zone not being accessible using Netscape. But I wasn't sure if folks were saying you specifically needed I.E.4. As far as the drivers bios and driving school I didn't know that you needed IE to access the CD. You know not to change the subject but, I used to have both I.E. 3.02 and Netscape installed on my H.D never was a problem just pick which you want to use as your default browser so you E-mail etc. goes there. I can only speak for myself but if I needed Netscape to play a sim and Netscape was free? Shoot I would just have it on the H.D. I would not have a problem with that. I mean most games " need" Direct X right? Would it not be the same to return most games because I didn't want to be forced to use Direct-X? Just my POV. Mike

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> I agree that he was in the right place at the right time and nothing > more. > However, if you deny that the advent of Windows and its common api's > has > changed the face of the pc world, you are mistaken. I'm not trying to > make > Bill sound like God, I'm just giving proper credit where due. MS is > the > Information revolution. How many homes did IBM hit with their PC? > Maybe a > few million? How many homes had MS hit with Windows? 100s of Millions. > -/- Walk Walker > BAMotorsports > A Premium Sim-Racing Team

I Still think your off the mark, windows took 5 years to reach the samelevel of GUI that Mac had even when IBM first released their first piece of junk, HARDWARE more then anything has "transformed the information revolution". I have worked in the computer biz since the early 70's I started at the main frame level, these computers cost millions of dollars and you were lucky if you had 1 meg of system memory. Bills junk would not even began to run the most powerful computers of the time, yet the programers of that day ran entire corporations on them. I agree with you that Bill has the power and he directs the path of our market place TODAY, but he was NOT the one to "transform the information revolution". While we are on this point why do you think IE is free, do you think its out of the goodness of his heart? NO he knows where computing is going, the internet/intranet. Networking is the new further, and MS is way late on this, they have their wonderful "Blue Screen of Death" NT and it barely works, within 10 years home computers and many biz computers will be nothing but fancy color terminals that have a browser in rom that loads on power up, ALL the computing will be done on the internet/intranet. Now gee if that happens good ol Bill will lose his power and his control, UNLESS that browser is IE. This is the entire point of what this thread is about, he has the power now and does not want to lose it so being the smart guy he is, he is now trying to ram IE down our throats. I for one will go along with this kicking a screaming, I just think of the hardware power in my desktop and think of the JUNK OS I have to run on it because I have no choice, competion is best for us all and if any one person or company has taken away our choices then all consumers lose. I get off my soap box and beg for forgiveness for getting so carried away :) -- It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. -- Andrew Jackson

OEM's install Netscape if they want to? It is free let the user decide, not the DOJ. The original allegation was that Microsoft was REQUIRING OEM's to install IE4 and according to unnamed OEMs Microsoft was actually penalizing them on per-unit prices of Win95 if they included Netscape as well. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

> Rehi Marc, > I see, I had heard about the Zone not being accessible > using Netscape. But I wasn't sure if folks were saying you specifically > needed I.E.4. As far as the drivers bios and driving school I didn't know > that you needed IE to access the CD. I am not sure either, I was just saying ie4. It probably does work with ie3 also.As far as just accessing the cd to get the bios, that doesn't add points to product functionality. If the Garage didn't save setups I could write them on a piece of paper, but the requirements don't say I need paper so I shouldn't have to do that. :-) That is a good point, and I could do that, but you have to remember also that some people don't have great big hard drives so they can't do it. Although that is a small amount of people. I would just rather not be forced to do anything, and on the direct x point I don't often have to deal with it's interface, plus there is not really any competition for it that I am aware of. And again this is not the reason I took Cart back, it had other well documented problems with it.

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> > I was saying the only thing Cart needs ie4 or actually I think it can use > ie3 > > also is for the driver biographies. I am not sure what you mean opposed > to > > netscape, but you can't access the driver bios, the driving school, or > the Zone > > using Netscape. These things didn't really hamper my enjoyment of the > game, > > what little there was, I was just talking about not getting every > feature.

-- Thank You Marc Johnson Outside of a dog, a book is a mans best friend. Inside a dog, it is too dark to read -Mark Twain

Huh? I am a bit confused as far as the CPR I have I always just leave the cd out as the only thing it needs to be in for is Driving school, Track info & as you said driver bios. Thats better than say F1rs where the cd always has to be in period eh? as far as the set-ups they are saved in garage right? So I am sorry but I seem to have lost what the original point was. I thought you originally said you needed I.E to access the drivers bios? I just checked my I.E total folder size on H.D was 175kb pretty small. Ok like I said in the first post I was mainly curious about the I.E versus Netscape needed to use the sim as far as accessing bios etc.

On Tue, 3 Feb 1998 16:24:11, "Mikes Designs" <the lost art of snipping> Believe it....The largest software company in the world has three letters in it's name...If possible check out how much real estate the same company owns in a large city near you....That will make you think a little. M$ and Bill Gates are small potatoes. <another example of snipping> Ralph Williams

Well I guess I can change his name frome someone who should know to someone who does know ;-) Thanks for the confirmation Ralph. Aloha, Mike

John, You solution might not be a bad idea... BUT neither browser should be pre-loaded then. The problem with Microsoft compiling IE into Windows IS unfair comepetition. If Netscape were offering a competing OS... the story might be different. But Microsoft has a virtual monopoly for OSs.... thus giving them the unfair advantage to incorporate a seperate entity into the OS. (the web broswer has been a seperate entity since inception.) Scott

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> >John, > >However, for many > >of the new computer purchasers who no very little about the web if at > >all, all they care about in general is 3 things. Can I "see" the web?? > >Can I send and receive email?? Can I read and post newsgroups ?? All 3 > >are YES for both Netscape and Microsoft. Now IF Microsoft forced all > >retailers to carry IE as part of the Windows OS.. that is unfair > >competition I think because a majority of new users will just use whats > >there. > Mmmmm, but where you draw the line? Adobe sue Microsoft because > Paintbrush migh stop people buying Photoshop? All the anti-virus > stuff, disk-backup, compression, DUN, whatever. I don't see why a > browser shouldn't be part of an OS - I'd quite like to be able to buy > a new system and POW there's everything I need to use the internet. > Not having to download another browser, e-mail prog, news prog any > time I have to reinstall from my Win95 CD. > Perhaps DOJ should insist that both are put on the Win95 distribution > CD, and the user offered a choice during installation :) > Cheers! > John

-- ///////////////////////////////////////////////// // // // Scott B. Husted // // // // http://www.itw.com/~sbhusted // // // // // // // // ICQ# 4395450 // // // /////////////////////////////////////////////////