Why I like CPR and online racing

I'm screaming down the long sweeper at Long Beach with another racer uncomfortably crowding my rearview. As the turn opens up in front of me I can see a cloud of dust. Spinning car?....Accident??? If I lift, I let him by me...but do I risk powering through it. I bite my lip and keep full power on eyes darting up and down the horizon. As I get closer see a single car spinning and sliding up the track. I dive below then slip back up to get myself online for some heavy braking. I'm 8 laps into a 10 lap race. There are 6 cars in the field but its been a two way race since the first lap. My hands are tense on the wheel as I approach the trailers knowing that every pass is critical........can I hold on for the final two......there's the white flag......and there is the first trailer...... Wooooeeee, this game is a blast. -- Please remove the NOSPAM from my email address to reply to me directly. I am sorry for this inconvenience but I have been overwhelmed by junkmail.

>I'm screaming down the long sweeper at Long Beach with another racer >uncomfortably crowding my rearview. As the turn opens up in front of me I >can see a cloud of dust. Spinning car?....Accident??? If I lift, I let him >by me...but do I risk powering through it. I bite my lip and keep full >power on eyes darting up and down the horizon. As I get closer see a single >car spinning and sliding up the track. I dive below then slip back up to >get myself online for some heavy braking. I'm 8 laps into a 10 lap race. >There are 6 cars in the field but its been a two way race since the first >lap. My hands are tense on the wheel as I approach the trailers knowing >that every pass is critical........can I hold on for the final >two......there's the white flag......and there is the first trailer...... .....and then I wake up from my dream, turn on my computer, start MS CPR, realize what a piece of ***it turned out to be, and then wish I never woke up!!!

My own experience.... I'm stuttering down the long sweeper at Long Beach with another racer uncomfortably crowding my rearview. As the turn suddenly pops into view in front of me I can see a cloud of dust. Spinning car?....Accident??? If I lift, I let him by me...but do I risk powering through it. I bite my lip and keep full power on eyes darting up and down the horizon trying to keep up with the ever changing frame-rate and waiting for when the braking markers will suddenly pop into view. As I get closer I see a single car spinning and sliding up the track, whacking the wall at 200mph, and then continuing with a mildly dented front wing. I dive below then slip back up to get myself online for some heavy braking, steeling myself for the inevitable instant locking of the front wheels despite the maximum rear bias I've added. I'm 8 laps into a 10 lap race. There are 6 cars in the field but its been a two way race since the first lap. My hands are tense on the wheel as I approach the trailers knowing that every pass is critical - who knows when the display might suddenly pause, make me miss my braking point and pitch me off the track, losing one of those places. Can I hold on for the final two......there's the white flag......there is the first trailer, but where is the patch to fix all the things that were supposed to be fixed so I can save my 'phone-bill and play it as a standalone game against AI as was promised? Wooooeeee, this game is a blast now that I've quit out of CPR and am playing F1RS / N2 / TOCA / noughts and crosses.

I'm heading into T3 at Miami. I think there were supposed to be 4 racers in this race, but I only see 1, wait.....that's two.....no, one...Frame rate changing constantly, I can't see any cars... Then I wake up and connect to TEN and have some real fun racing N2. CPR - Conman's Professional Ripoff -/- Walk Walker BAMotorsports A Premium Sim-Racing Team

I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. (You would have to be following the thread "MS Cart PR - not much activity here" to understand.) Jim Getzen Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ http://members.home.net/getzen/

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> >.....and then I wake up from my dream, turn on my computer, start MS CPR, > >realize what a piece of ***it turned out to be, and then wish I never > woke > >up!!! > I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. > (You would have to be following the thread "MS Cart PR - not much activity > here" to understand.)

I am Jim, but aren't you supposed to be skiing, or couldn't you leave the laptop at home ??????? Beers and cheers (uncle) Goy P.S. practice has been going VERY well

>I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. Well, unfortunately there are *very* few positive comments that an intelligent person could make regarding this game. Bill -------- "NASCAR is the Professional Wrestling of Motorsport." -Me-

Hmmm, Does this mean folks like Jim & myself are stupid? Nah you cant mean that. I will opt for Jims explanation. Mike > >I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. > Well, unfortunately there are *very* few positive comments that an intelligent

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> person could make regarding this game. > Bill > -------- > "NASCAR is the Professional Wrestling of Motorsport." > -Me-

> I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. ...<snip> > Jim Getzen > Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ > http://members.home.net/getzen/ Jim -- I saw many, many positive comments, from you and from others, concerning CPR -- did anyone stop you from making them? I don't think so. If someone who's had a negative experience with CPR posts a negative comment, how does that translate to "no one is allowed a positive comment"? If what you're actually saying is "Anyone who claims to have had a negative experience with CPR is just plain wrong, and their posting of negative comments is just biased MS-bashing"...well, that "argument" isn't an argument at all, but an exceptionally biased opinion, and bashing in its own right. Don't you think your "Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ" tag implies more than a little bias on your part? It is now a month since Dean Lester posted the following message. What do you suppose MS was going to do with the comments they requested "ASAP" on the "Last Patch"? Apparently NOT make another patch, considering their absolute dead silence since. <<Subject: >>> CPR Patch Available <<< Date: 1998/01/07 Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators [More Headers] <<snipped URL so people don't start posting there... THIS IS AN OLD MESSAGE>> Please send us your feedback on this (beta) patch ASAP. In particular we'd like to know:- 1) Frame rate changes on your system 2) AI improvements 3) Steering stability Send your feedback to ... <<snipped URL so people don't start posting there... THIS IS AN OLD MESSAGE>> or <<snipped URL so people don't start posting there... THIS IS AN OLD MESSAGE>> Thanks again for your patience. CPR Team.>>

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>I'm heading into T3 at Miami. I think there were supposed to be 4 racers in >this race, but I only see 1, wait.....that's two.....no, one...Frame rate >changing constantly, I can't see any cars... >Then I wake up and connect to TEN and have some real fun racing N2. >CPR - Conman's Professional Ripoff

Pfffhahahahah ! Lol here is mine... I'm driving backwards alone to get new challenge of learning twice more track in Cart:PR (Well, hotlaps is the only good thing IMHO, but it's boring after 2months). So I get on the Zone, and try to do the same thing online. Heck people are all laughing at me and start to drive backwards with me. I just wanted to see the reaction of people but hey ? They liked it... Then I go to sleep and start dreaming. I'm on the NROS and start driving backwards. Noooooo !!! My online life is terminated. I hear the Muzzle sound everywhere in my head (you know the little voice when you muzzle somebody). Argh ! <I woke up> Whoa... just a dream, just a dream. If you understand my post you will know that you can't even compare the NROS to anything on the market. It's unique. Heh pretty freaky nightmare ! * Fran?ois Mnard * With great respect, * May the downforce be with you, * Good race at the Brickyard, (-o-) * <ymenard> on NROS, sponsored by * http://www.awpss.com/ * SimRacing director, AWPSS * Official Mentally retarded guy of r.a.s. * Excuse me for my English (I'm French speaking) * Excuse me for my provocative posts and reply's <g> begin 666 ymenard.vcf M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"DXZ3>EN87)D.T9R86[G;VES.TXN#0I&3CIY;65N87)D M3#M#14Q,.U9/24-%.DXO00T*5$5,.TA/344[1D%8.DXO00T*0412.TA/344Z M.SLQ,30V.2!/=FED92U#;&5R;6]N=#M-;VYT<F5A;"U.;W)D.U%U96)E8SM( M3E1!0DQ%.C$Q-#8Y($]V:61E+4-L97)M;VYT/3!$/3!!36]N=')E86PM3F]R M+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"E523#IH='1P.B\O=W=W+F%W<'-S+F-O;2\-"D5-04E, M.U!2148[24Y415).150Z>6UE;F%R9$!A=W!S<RYC;VT-"D5.1#I60T%21 T* ` end

You set up a straw man and knocked it down. I never said people with negative comments are wrong, so the rest of your commentary doesn't follow. I *was* saying that positive comments about CPR are often met with something less than a reasonable, mature disagreement. Here is a perfect example: Daniel Lauring's started this thread by described his thrilling experience with CPR in an online race. Why did Tim respond with: ".....and then I wake up from my dream, turn on my computer, start MS CPR, realize what a piece of ***it turned out to be, and then wish I never woke up!!!" In my opinion, this reply is rude, without merit, and is clearly "bashing" for its own sake. Daniel was being told, in effect, "you're wrong." There has simply been too much of that (and in other newsgroups too) in my view. Sorry if this makes me prudish somehow. The irony is that, during beta-testing, I may have been CPR's biggest critic (constructive, I hope) in conversations with Microsoft. I tried to warn them about all sorts of problems with the product, and yes, I think it was released too soon. Although the patch has helped a lot, I still think CPR has flaws. I also think it the sim has great potential. Don't mistake my wish for a more thoughtful discussion with "bias" or some blind love for CPR. I won't be able to respond for awhile -- I'm going on vacation (and I'm sure it's obvious that I need it). I hope I've made my thoughts clear. I'm not saying I'm right or that anybody else is wrong, and I don't expect to change anyone's mind or behavior. Am I expecting too much from usenet? Probably. But it seemed worthwhile to take a small stand. I'm looking forward to polite disagreement. Jim Getzen Unofficial CART Precision Racing HQ http://members.home.net/getzen/

>>I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. >Well, unfortunately there are *very* few positive comments that an intelligent >person could make regarding this game. >Bill I think this zero's in on CPR......if you look at it as a GAME and not a sim like it's supposed to be, it's not bad. It does make a great GAME.....but for Simulation, I prefer F1RS, ICR2, or GP2.....although 99% of my time with those three sims is in F1RS!! But I still play CPR every now and then. Usually on the Zone. Craig Marcho http://www.cmpu.net/public/marcho/

>.....and then I wake up from my dream, turn on my computer, start MS CPR, >realize what a piece of ***it turned out to be, and then wish I never woke >up!!! Exhibit A as to why this newsgroup is rivalling the intolerance of the political correctness crowd. A guy comes on here and says he's having a lot of fun with multiplayer CPR, and *THIS* is the response he gets. Live and let live, man... Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

>>I rest my case -- no one is allowed a positive comment. >Well, unfortunately there are *very* few positive comments that an intelligent >person could make regarding this game. That's not true. There are plenty of positive things to say about CPR. But there are too many big monsters left in the product to allow the overall recommendation to be good. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Bart, there's a fine line between disagreeing with someone and being abusive and mocking. I thought the reply he got was more or less a rather childish flame rather than a mature disagreement. I'm pretty much unhappy with the entire crop of next gen sims right now. There's nothing out there right now that matches up to NASCAR 2 in my book, and NASCAR is my LEAST favorite motorsport! But I know that a lot of people like F1RS, some people like CART, etc...I don't see the need to flame or mock or humiliate anyone who comes on and says they like a certain sim or are having fun with it. Sure the guy can say anything he wants...but I just feel like standing up and screaming "Grow up!" to some of the people who feel that if the person's opinion doesn't fall into the bandwagon of the majority, then he should be ridiculed. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

<<I'm looking forward to polite disagreement.>> I think the "dream sequence" scenario, describing playing CPR as transporting the player to a state of ecstatically profound "racing environment" verisimilitude, was inevitably destined to draw humorous parodies -- and there's no doubt the humor around these parts tends to be heavy-handed. I think that the point being made, however unsubtly, was an excellent one, and the core of the problem: many people's experience of CPR is the polar opposite of the dream state described. CPR is so herky-jerky and unrealistic in areas like AI and framerate that the very essence of enjoying a sim -- that moment known in drama as "willing suspension of disbelief" -- is never achieved. It's difficult to immerse oneself in a simulation that constantly reminds the player, by its very inability to "simulate" a realistic experience, that you are sitting in front of a high-priced TV monitor, and not at the wheel of a REALLY high-priced racing car... Whether the vehemence of the arguments is over the top or not, the very simple question remains unanswered: Is CPR going to be fixed in this version? If not, one can only assume that the comments solicited a month ago by Mr. Lester were for some other purpose -- they certainly weren't for the purpose of satisfying the majority of voices in this NG who STILL don't think CPR works as advertised. The only other purpose that seems a reasonable deduction is that MS plans on releasing a version 2 of CPR, and they expect people to pay for the game all over again, rather than fixing the one they've already sold. If this is the case, that doesn't seem fair, does it? If it isn't the case, Microsoft has had every opportunity to say so -- but they have said nothing. As politely as I can, let me ask: What do YOU make of this situation? Bart Brown

Randy -- See my reply elsewhere in this thread. I don't disagree with you and Jim Getzen about the "quality" of the reply you both complained of, but I certainly support the essence of it -- and I must admit, I found its ironic twist of the original post quite amusing. That, however, is just window dressing -- the central question is still unanswered, and I'm pretty sure it will remain so. "Corporate humility" ranks right up there with "military intelligence" in the Top Five Oxymorons... Regards Bart Brown

Well, I wrote the "dream sequence" and knew it would draw flames. I particularly liked the response, where the writer parodied my posting with his decidedly less favorable impression of CPR. That was an intelligent and constructive argument to my sunny painting of CPR. -- and there's no doubt the humor around these parts tends to If you've been around the newsgroups any amount of time you've developed a thick skin. I certainly don't condone such juvenile postings, instead I can't help but imagine the poor slob as some maladjusted Bill Gates want-a-be who's best chance at personal happiness is a skin magazine, an empty john and a bar of soap. Gotta pitty the poor fella, really. I can certainly feel for people with this problem. I ran out and bought MS Flight Simulator for Win95 when it came out and the best I could muster with my otherwise capable machine was 7 frames/sec. The game was utterly unplayable and sat on my shelf for monthes. I never got any help from MS and instead stumbled upon the solution while fiddiling with my video card settings. On the other hand, MS Cart runs at about 25fps on my machine with slowdowns into the mid-***s. This is about the going rate for games on my machine (ie. Quake, Monster Truck Madness, GP2) and I am very happy with it. By the way, I have a P200mmx with a Matrox Millenium and a 3Dfx card. The AI absolutely destroys the single player game in my opinion. I have only played one other racer with worse AI (in terms of unnecessary roughness) and that was Andretti Racing on the Playstation. I'll never forget my first pit stop in Andretti. I was accelerating hard out of the pits to merge into traffic when one of the AI dropped down from high on the oval to smash me into the grass. I was immediately reminded of this when, as I slowed for a corner in CPR, the AI slammed into the back of me then proceeded to push me sideways for 100 feet till I spun off into the wall. At least I was racing Nascar with Andretti.....not a delicate open wheel cart! The patch has improved the AI but they still like to bump into the back of you and make no attempt to miss you if you slide or spin. I find that CPR immersises me more than any other racer....when matching up against another person over the net. With all the graphics on (remember I have no framerate problems) I would put it in the same level as F1RS and TOCA. That was the feeling I was trying to convey with the so called "dream sequence." I fear not....but I can hope can't I. I am worried that MS will decide to put the bug fixes into the next release with some "new features" and charge another $40 for the package. I would be so much happier if they would at least fix the online *** bugs. It is not uncommon to host an online race where after the race you find you have 2 winners because somehow the computer started to seperate concurrent races. It is not uncommon to lose a racer or two as you switch from the multiplayer chat page to the actual race. If not, one can only assume that the comments solicited a month You'd be hard pressed to find any program that worked as advertised. For example, anyone want to talk about the "great" modem races they've had in GP2? Can you say MS Flight Simulator '98. I am amazed anyone from MS said anything. I am sure they were immediately abomished by there supervisors and instructed never to make another post identifying themselves to have any ties with MS. You don't even see comments from MS on their own newsgroups.

>Exhibit A as to why this newsgroup is rivalling the intolerance of the >political correctness crowd. A guy comes on here and says he's having >a lot of fun with multiplayer CPR, and *THIS* is the response he gets. Someone else attempts to point out the corrolary view and illustrate the problems HE is having and he's not allowed to? Right back atcha Randy.... Cheers! John

Corolary view hmmm never heard that used to describe rude before;-0 Well just consider my thinking your description an excuse my corolary view ;-) corolary: 1- a proposition that follows from one already proved. 2- a normal result If this is the word you meant to use then you must mean #2 and are you from New York? Mike

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> >Exhibit A as to why this newsgroup is rivalling the intolerance of the > >political correctness crowd. A guy comes on here and says he's having > >a lot of fun with multiplayer CPR, and *THIS* is the response he gets. > Someone else attempts to point out the corrolary view and illustrate > the problems HE is having and he's not allowed to? > Right back atcha Randy.... > Cheers! > John

On 1 Feb 1998 02:42:54 GMT, "Mikes Designs"

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>Corolary view hmmm never heard that used to describe rude before;-0 >Well just consider my thinking your description an excuse my corolary view >;-) >corolary: 1- a proposition that follows from one already proved. > 2- a normal result >If this is the word you meant to use then you must mean #2 and are you >from New York? Mike

Something which is "corollary" is something which is easily inferred, or generally obvious, hence why someone would post a corollary view regarding problems in CPR. Cheers! John

The funny thing is that in D3D, I have more problems in jerkiness with Ubisoft's F1 than I do with CPR. I generally just hotlap and race on the Zone with CPR, and find it to be quite fun for that. Well, after last night's pressure-keg at Elkhart I beg to differ. I found someone with roughly competitive times as me and going nose-to-gearbox on the final lap was pretty darn exciting. A lot of my improved feelings about racing with CPR has to do with the new STB drivers, the improved control and the fact that I'm finally developing the light touch on gas & brake needed to get better speeds around the circuits. This is true, but its also true to one degree or another with pretty much every racing sim. I've given up looking for the perfect sim and just learned to deal with whatever warts each one has. Don't get me wrong, I'm not blind to what's very, very wrong in CPR. But I can also tell you that by putting in the same kind of work I did into lowering lap times in F1RS, I actually found myself having a lot of fun at the road/street courses (ovals right now are a sad joke in this title :( ) Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

>>Exhibit A as to why this newsgroup is rivalling the intolerance of the >>political correctness crowd. A guy comes on here and says he's having >>a lot of fun with multiplayer CPR, and *THIS* is the response he gets. >Someone else attempts to point out the corrolary view and illustrate >the problems HE is having and he's not allowed to? Who said he wasn't allowed to? Just pointing out that diversity of opinion is dying on this newsgroup because the gangs on the bandwagons mug anyone with a contrary opinion. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

A lot of Hi Randy, Are you saying the 1.32 drivers improved the control? I was just wondering as I too have noticed better control.I wasn't sure what to attribute it to though. I figured either I was getting more used to the light touch on brake and gas as you describe. Or possibly better set ups. Cya, Mike

I thought it was Toyota who made the Corollary? -- Bruce (at work) "Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get tired." (Jules Renard)

> Hi Randy, > Are you saying the 1.32 drivers improved the control? No. It was a cascading effect. The absence of flickering tearing graphics let my P300 have a nice fluid frame rate with outstanding graphics with all the details on. This enthused me enough to spend more time in the garage and more time doing steup adjustments. I also took the time to do some careful experimentation with the braking control, and found that by just breathing on the brake I was actually doing a good job slowing the car down. There is a fundamental problem with CPR's braking, which that 10% of brake travel amounts to 50% braking in the Pi telemetry. I've braked once or twice at around 60%, but basically anything over 50% and they are locked up at any speed. So the trick is to teach the brain that its okay to get very little movement of the brake pedal and still get sufficient threshhold braking. So many other sims, including the Papy ones, have taught us that we can mash our feet to the floor. Grand Prix 2 took it a step further and introduced lockups which still allowed heavy initial braking but gave us threshhold braking throughout brake pedal travel. In reality, brake pedals don't move much. Carroll Smith said in his book that the ideal brake wouldn't move at all, but just be pressure sensitive. If I could put a VERY heavy spring and a stopper on my T2 pedals that would only ALLOW 10% brake travel at very high pressure, I'd have a pretty realistic braking system under CPR. But since I don't have that mechanical setup, I just have to allow it to become mental, and my times have dropped as I have discovered how to threshhold brake with very little pedal travel. The other aspect of 'improved control' actually is a tribute to the training I got from F1RS. F1RS' grip out of low speed corners is pretty easy to lose if you get heavy-footed with the throttle. The act of working my Spa-Francorchamps times down to the low 1:50 range also taught me a much greater sense of balance in turns and coming off of corners. Again, this is contrast to the fairly heavy acceleration allowed under other sims. I learned to threshhold brake better, show more finesse on the gas, and be smoother on the steering. The result was that CPR courses which were previously too painful to drive (Australia and Detroit, for instance) are now exhilarating, and the sense of speed is much better than F1RS most of the time. The post-patch grip model is such that it requires you to develop a very good feel for the limit of adhesion and drive it. The car slides more readily than it does in F1RS, but it also recovers easier (which, happily enough, is exactly what Jacques Villeneuve wrote about in his book when comparing the two types of vehicles). The graphics make the game pleasurable enough to make the rest of the sim worth exploring. I can definitely understand how people who are not getting a great frame rate or graphics detail level have no inclination to spend time learning the model, and certainly the sim has enough other warts that it makes sense to many to just ignore the thing, at least until next version. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

>Who said he wasn't allowed to? Just pointing out that diversity of >opinion is dying on this newsgroup because the gangs on the bandwagons >mug anyone with a contrary opinion. Yes, but "counter-mugging" someone for posting the opposing opinion will help? Diversity of opinion comes about _because_ of people posting contrary views and discssing them, it's those people who cannot accept another's opinion that cause the problems. Cheers! John

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> Whether the vehemence of the arguments is over the top or not, the very > simple question remains unanswered: Is CPR going to be fixed in this > version? If not, one can only assume that the comments solicited a month > ago by Mr. Lester were for some other purpose -- they certainly weren't > for the purpose of satisfying the majority of voices in this NG who > STILL don't think CPR works as advertised. The only other purpose that > seems a reasonable deduction is that MS plans on releasing a version 2 > of CPR, and they expect people to pay for the game all over again, > rather than fixing the one they've already sold. If this is the case, > that doesn't seem fair, does it? If it isn't the case, Microsoft has had > every opportunity to say so -- but they have said nothing.

For those interested you can go here http://cart.gamestats.com/news.htm and fill out a request form for CPR's next patch.

Rinse, lather, repeat.........

>Sorry to be so long-winded, but these questions seem simple to me; I >just don't understand why it's so difficult to get a definitive answer >as to what MS/TRI's commitment is actually going to amount to, if >anything, to the guinea pigs who bought CPR v.1, and acted as their >unpaid beta testers. I relaize that YOU can't answer the question, but Since you are great at correcting spelling (especially in my posts), I am wondering what the heck a "relaize" is? I am obviously a crude person and am looking for guidence. Thank you. Header intentionally scrambled to ward off the spamming hordes.

Don't know how old this info is from the APEX site, but that would be a useful indicator. I also have a couple three other questions: 1. I assume that APEX is not officially affiliated with MS or TRI, is that correct? 2. If it's true that APEX is not officially affiliated with MS or TRI, what exactly is the arrangement? I'm not looking for conspiracies, just curious as to why a company with MS resources can't issue there own PR, or support their own sim site. 3. Everyone is enjoined to go fill out the "New Patch feedback form", yet two sentences later there is the caveat "There is no guarantee of another patch but if you don't make your voice heard I can guarantee you there will not be another one. In the next day or two I will stop taking feedback and will compile the results." Again, I'd like to know the time frame of the original posting, and (believe me, I'm not trying to be argumentative) how it is you cannot guarantee there will be another patch, yet you CAN guarantee there WON'T be another patch, if people don't fill out APEX' feedback form. Something doesn't quite line up here. 4. Then there is the ambiguous "Please fill out the form with the items that you think need to be fixed in a patch before version 2.0 or [SIC] CART Precision Racing." Notwithstanding what must be a typo (you DID mean to say "before version 2.0 *of* CART Precision Racing, correct?), there still seems to be some ambiguity -- perhaps I'm not reading it correctly -- concerning another patch. First, there is the question of whether or not there will be another patch, the answer to which you don't know, and MS/TRI isn't talking. Then there are the most important implied questions: is there going to be a final patch of v.1? Will there be requests for feedback to that hypothetical final patch, in the not-unlikely-event there are still lingering problems, before the release of v.2, or will v.2 be released as essentially v.1 with the hypothetical final patch? What I'm trying to ask is, if there actually IS a final downloadable patch, will it give those people who bought v.1 the same operative functionality as those who buy v.2, or will v.2 incorporate FURTHER improvements over the hypothetical final patch, which would then make it necessary for purchasers of v.1 to shell out AGAIN for v.2, if they wanted to maintain parity for online racing? If this is the case, then doesn't it seem logical that MS/TRI owe the people who bought v.1 in good faith some sort of break on v.2? Sorry to be so long-winded, but these questions seem simple to me; I just don't understand why it's so difficult to get a definitive answer as to what MS/TRI's commitment is actually going to amount to, if anything, to the guinea pigs who bought CPR v.1, and acted as their unpaid beta testers. I relaize that YOU can't answer the question, but we all know who can. Bart Brown <<Thanks to everyone that filled out the New Patch feedback form. Right now there have been over 200 replies! If you haven't given your feedback yet head over to the online feedback form and fill it out. There is no guarantee of another patch but if you don't make your voice heard I can guarantee you there will not be another one. I will post a summary of the results in the news section so people can see what others had in mind. Please fill out the form with the items that you think need to be fixed in a patch before version 2.0 or CART Precision Racing. Remember that MS and TRI will not have an infinite amount of time and resources to fix everything so make sure that you pick the items that are the most important to you!>>

<<Since you are great at correcting spelling (especially in my posts), I am wondering what the heck a "relaize" is?>> Ahhh...."relaize": r?laz verb, intransitive To take one's ease, specifically in a chaise lounge or other non-specific lounge chair; to rest in such a chair or chaise lounge. "I should have checked over my message before I *relaized* for a few moments in my nuclear-powered Panasonic Shiatsu chaise lounge; I would have *realized* I had made a typo." No synonyms found for "relaize" Bart Brown

This brings to mind a question I have. I coulda swore that there was to be a "patched" demo with the fixes incorporated with "the" patch. To my knowledge the demo is still the original one. Is there going to be a patched demo? If not, does this indicate the lack of further work on CPR v.1? -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

correct? I believe there is no "official" relationship between APEX and MS. However, APEX is a CPR fan site, and is therefore MS "friendly". Its pretty clear that the fact that Dean feels comfortable posting on the APEX message board is a sign that he feels he's among friends (CPR fans) there, as opposed to Usenet, where he got routinely flamed. exactly is the arrangement? I'm not looking for conspiracies, just curious as to why a company with MS resources can't issue there own PR, or support their own sim site. >> My guess would be beauracracy (sp?) and accountability. I figure that if MS wants to put something on their web site, they have to go through whatever Web site management layer there is at MS *and* anything they put up there they can be held accountable for. So its more "official" dissemination than informal and friendly give and take between CPR users and development team. Dean can say something on the APEX and its not really "official" in the sense that stuff they put up on their site is. I see nothing wrong with an informal relationship that fosters continued communication between users and the development team in a more friendly environment than Usenet. Besides, I suspect that the CART team at Microsoft and at TRI do read Usenet messages, even if they don't respond to them. another patch but if you don't make your voice heard I can guarantee you there will not be another one. >> Interesting choice of words. I don't read that much into it, except common sense does dictate that if no one is complaining, then there's nothing to patch, right? (If it ain't broken...). Obviously John is trying to rally as much support for another patch as he can. As far as whether or not the current patch is final before a full version upgrade...who knows? I sure don't. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Yes, I'm interested in this observation also. Anyone confirm any info about a new demo with these improvements in AI & Framerates that some are claiming after retail version patch? I recall the Microsoft rep. that once participated in this group mentioning an improved demo in the works back when claims were also made to the theory of native "Glide" support being out-performed by D3D in the construction of the "patch" which resulted in the dumping of that port. I would personally be very interested in seeing this first hand without being obligated to a purchase. Seems like a major leap in development which would be well worthy of ALL resources applied to releasing a revised demo. Ron L. (Please remove the extra letter(s) to respond) Home of the SSC http://www3.pgh.net/~lazer/ For Nascar2 & Winston Cup Fans!

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> This brings to mind a question I have. I coulda swore that there was to > be a "patched" demo with the fixes incorporated with "the" patch. To my > knowledge the demo is still the original one. Is there going to be a > patched demo? If not, does this indicate the lack of further work on > CPR v.1? > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Yes, the demo will apparently be patched soon.

<snipped-discussion about ?patch?> The following is the post from Dean about a week or so ago with a bit on the end from my good self :) Rest assured that Dean is not crawled to by all at the APEX :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >We are constantly looking for ways to bring CPR closer to the "ideal" sim but everyone's opinions differ on what that means. know that many people recognized their suggestions in version 1.01. We are listening. See this all you anti whiners? Dean is here with this message because CGW rated CPR as game of the year? Or because you all claim it's so good? Aint that right now? (VERY sarcastic GRIN). So you all go back to the Zone and to kidding yourselves that it's right and let us see if we CAN get it RIGHT for you. We'll see if we can wake you up out of your coma when we get there (VERY sarcastic GRIN). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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> >> If you've been around the newsgroups any amount of time you've developed > a > >> thick skin. I certainly don't condone such juvenile postings, instead I > >> can't help but imagine the poor slob as some maladjusted Bill Gates > >> want-a-be who's best chance at personal happiness is a skin magazine, an > >> empty john and a bar of soap. Gotta pitty the poor fella, really. > > Strange day this! First I had a fella saying something about "knee > >dragging stuff" and now this. Just exactly what is the soap for Dan? :) > Rinse, lather, repeat.........

Hehehehehe, I guess my inexperience in such matters is showing!