'Canned' spins

I've seen much discussion here on whether GP2's *** spins (and F1RS, but I haven't and don't have the horsepower to play that) are realistic. I've never driven a full-size race car, but I would say my Predator (tenth scale electric 4WD off road) is the next best thing (if the word 'toy' springs to mind go and browse rec.models.rc.land) and experience with that suggests that F1s may indeed 'lose it' just like that. Basically, if I tap the brakes on the Pred on wet tarmac, especially into a corner, I lose it (there's a one-way clutch to the front wheels so it's rear brakes only). It can be caught but (like GP2) only occasionally and only if I'm expecting it. Since it's 4WD, applying power solves the problem but doesn't help with getting round the hairpin! (I rarely need brakes in a racing situation) I sometimes describe it as a 'quantum spin' - the molecules just seem to rearrange themselves so the car's facing the other way, with no noticeable stages in between! In general, the thing does handle much like GP2, although it's a touch more forgiving, but a sweet setup on either gives a similar buzz. BTW, I drive GP2 with opp lock help and nothing else on a converted two- channel transmitter, and I'm currently leading my second Ace-level championship seasion - I haven't beaten it yet! 'Nuff respect to those nutters like Alesi and Villeneuve who consistently hold oversteer into chicanes - watch them through the last at Suzuka. No-one said driving F1s was easy! -- Jonny --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Hodgson | TTech Predator | | it's the way you set it up. | LSU Archery Club and Orchestra | ---------------------------------------------------------------------

Indeed, i used to drive a 'Schumacher CAT 2000' (nothing to do with Micheal) and that had a tendency to just suddenly spin out on slippy surfaces, however both this and the Predator are 4WD. The only 2WD I drove was the Cougar 2000 (and one quick go with a Losi XX) and these handle completely differently - they tend to just drift out and understeer a lot, although when they start to slide, they normally just completely go and are very difficult to get back under control, just as in the games. What I'm trying to say is yes, I agree with you, and though the crashes might be slightly exagerated for entertainment value (they are still games, after all) they are probably a lot more realistic than people seem to think they are. SODA off-road is probably the best example of a good driving model, although it does seem to oversteer a bit too much. Steve

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>Basically, if I tap the brakes on the Pred on wet tarmac, especially into >a corner, I lose it (there's a one-way clutch to the front wheels so it's >rear brakes only). >It can be caught but (like GP2) only occasionally and only if I'm expecting >it. Since it's 4WD, applying power solves the problem but doesn't help >with getting round the hairpin! (I rarely need brakes in a racing situation)

That's not the problem with GP2. The problem is that when you dab the brakes, _catch_ the spin and bring the sideways slie to a halt, if you release the brakes the slide continues. Basically you need to hold the brakes on until the energy of the slide has dissipated as if you never touched the brakes. It's as if the kinetic energy is somehow stored in the car and released again when you come off the brake, rather than being dissipated into heat through the brakes as it should be. Cheers! John

Your supposed to catch it *before* you need to use the brakes <g> Cheers, Richard

>I sometimes describe it as a 'quantum spin' - the molecules just seem to >rearrange themselves so the car's facing the other way, with no noticeable >stages in between! LOL! You know, that's just about the most original thing I've ever read on this ng <g> Maybe we should start classifying spin models using 'charm', 'strangeness' etc <vbg> Cheers, Richard

>I sometimes describe it as a 'quantum spin' - the molecules just seem to >rearrange themselves so the car's facing the other way, with no noticeable >stages in between! Years ago when I was practising car driving to get the licence: It was winter time and quite slippery. One turn of the street was empty - no cars no persons. I decided to drive a little bit too fast to the corner and let the rear tyres slide a little. I thought I could practise correcting. No way! I do not know how it happened, but just in no time I had turned 180 degrees and stopped to the previous left bank. No damage, luckily. Perhaps this was also an example of the 'quantum spin' of of car spinning ... ;-) Arto

What kind of spin save is that :o)? Dab the brakes when the car starts to spin :o)? Tell me all about it, I always thought that if you start to spin release the throttle and apply opposite lock. /Christer Andersson, hoping he can learn something :o)

What kind of spin save is that :o)? Dab the brakes when the car starts to spin :o)? Tell me all about it, I always thought that if you start to spin release the throttle and apply opposite lock. /Christer Andersson, hoping he can learn something :o)

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> >Basically, if I tap the brakes on the Pred on wet tarmac, especially into > >a corner, I lose it (there's a one-way clutch to the front wheels so it's > >rear brakes only). > >It can be caught but (like GP2) only occasionally and only if I'm expecting > >it. Since it's 4WD, applying power solves the problem but doesn't help > >with getting round the hairpin! (I rarely need brakes in a racing situation) > That's not the problem with GP2. > The problem is that when you dab the brakes, _catch_ the spin and > bring the sideways slie to a halt, if you release the brakes the slide > continues. Basically you need to hold the brakes on until the energy > of the slide has dissipated as if you never touched the brakes. It's > as if the kinetic energy is somehow stored in the car and released > again when you come off the brake, rather than being dissipated into > heat through the brakes as it should be. > Cheers! > John

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 00:26:23 +0100, Christer Andersson >What kind of spin save is that :o)? Dab the brakes when the car starts to spin >:o)? Tell me all about it, I always thought that if you start to spin release the >throttle and apply opposite lock. >/Christer Andersson, hoping he can learn something :o) Tell it to Geoff Crammond - steering into the slide and modulating the throttle applies in every sim and in real life - but not in GP2. Getting on the brakes will catch the spin, so I'll do it. Cheers! John

>Your supposed to catch it *before* you need to use the brakes <g> Watch it.... ;-) You're right though, if you catch the spin before a certain point it behaves pretty much exactly as it should. It's only when the "canned" rroutine starts that this energy conservation feature comes in and spoils things. Cheers! John

But, did you get your license? :) Ben -={ To get my real email address, remove the NOSPAM }=- SPAMMERS!!! Read this!!! No spam for me! Unwanted, unsolicited commmercial email WILL be dealt with.. And, why the hell do you even bother sending the shit if you don't include your own return address?

On Mon, 26 Jan 1998 00:26:39 +0100, Christer Andersson >What kind of spin save is that :o)? Dab the brakes when the car starts to spin >:o)? Tell me all about it, I always thought that if you start to spin release the >throttle and apply opposite lock. If the car is enough out of shape that it's impossible to 'properly' save the spin, there is a fall back option in GP2; simply slam on the brakes. As John says, you have to keep the brakes on until the car pretty much comes to a complete stop but it costs less time than the spin would. Cheers, Richard

some removed... This sounds like the best way to drive a video game, if you don't want to take up your whole desk with a wheel. I am curious, tho' is it a pistol grip w/wheel steering, or two sticks (yeah right), and how much was it to convert? Too bad you can't stand way off to the side of the track with a view like god, and get a lot of practice :). Dan. "Three options: Right, Fast, and Cheap. Pick Two." Like everyone else, I've changed my reply address. To reply, remove ._nospam_ from address.

: If the car is enough out of shape that it's impossible to 'properly' save : the spin, there is a fall back option in GP2; simply slam on the brakes. Alternately, you can DOWNshift and keep the power on FULL. What that does is put the engine on the limiter. Once on the limiter, the engine will stop producing power and the rear wheels will no longer spin. Then you can "catch" your "spin" and then start upshifting again on your merry way. Works on all corners depending on how far you kick the rear out and how much steering you are doing. It kills the lap times, but will save a spin just about every time. -- -------------------------------------

1st gear ones? <g> Cheers, Richard

: >Alternately, you can DOWNshift and keep the power on FULL. What that does : >is put the engine on the limiter. Once on the limiter, the engine will : >stop producing power and the rear wheels will no longer spin. Then you : >can "catch" your "spin" and then start upshifting again on your merry way. : > : >Works on all corners... <snip> : 1st gear ones? <g> ;) Well, depends. I guess I would not say hairpins, but certainly for those 90 degree corners. Just don't upshift and let the limiter handle the wheel spin. Like I said before, it just matters how far and how fast the rear is kicking out. It works best if you wait until at least the apex to start accelerating, but what fun is that. ;) -- -------------------------------------

> Alternately, you can DOWNshift and keep the power on FULL. What that does > is put the engine on the limiter. Once on the limiter, the engine will > stop producing power and the rear wheels will no longer spin. Then you > can "catch" your "spin" and then start upshifting again on your merry way. And of course this has no basis in reality... :-) Rev limiters will not prevent mechanical over-revving... ---Jim

: This sounds like the best way to drive a video game, if you don't want : to take up your whole desk with a wheel. I am curious, tho' is it a : pistol grip w/wheel steering, or two sticks (yeah right), and how much : was it to convert? It's a twin stick (generally only Americans use pistol grip). The whole thing has so far cost about ten pounds - that's why I use that and not a wheel!! I bought the transmitter as an end-of-line for 3.50, and it's had two sets of pots (actually resistors) in it since, plus the 15 pin D connector. The trickiest bit of the project was fitting the new pots as they're physically bigger - they sit in Plasticard mounting plates, glued to the trim tabs (which no longer work). They had to be stripped to remove the sticky stuff that makes them stiff to turn (paraffin removes it) and they need occasional cleaning of the tracks, since they start glitching after a while. I just move them round a bit and recalibrate in between cleans. A bit of hassle, but 10% of the price of a wheel annd pedals - and it's the way I'm used to driving race cars! -- Jonny --------------------------------------------------------------------- | Jonathan Hodgson | TTech Predator | | it's the way you set it up. | LSU Archery Club and Orchestra | ---------------------------------------------------------------------