CPR-Excellent Driving

Well I might get flamed for this but................... I have been driving the wheels off this CPR and I must say this is the best driving model I have found yet. I only have yet to try GP2 which I did manage to find for 29. US dollars at [link lost in import] plus 9 for shipping should be here this week. So far I have tried F1rs - CPR- and ICR2 . I must say ICR2 came a close 2nd but this CPR really puts across the feel. Thats whats most important to me. The way the power is delivered and the wheels start to break loose you can actually feel it. I really love the way you can control the slide if you input the proper responses. This thing really feels like the 800+ hp racer it is simulating. I agree the AI might not be up to***but if competition sim racing is anything like competition flight simulations then the Drive/ Flight model is THE most important thing. I found through competitive online flying that all the AI improvements will never make you ready for Human competition. I prefer to practice all I can either alone in sim or against any AI knowing that the real test will be against other sim heads like myself online. Thanks TRI for a great racing sim and thanks to all on this NG for the tips and help you've given. Aloha, Mike

On 11 Jan 1998 22:16:02 GMT, "Mikes Designs" >Well I might get flamed for this but................... (edit) No flame, Mike, just a question: What modifications did you have to make to the default settings to get CPR to run so well? Were these adjustments that would be applicable to most computers, or modifications for your particular machine, or a combination? I guess I don't have the patience to*** with this stuff--GP2 has a way of spoiling people like me who aren't that interested in playing with setups (although you *can* play with setups all you like, if you feel so inclined). Maybe the handling of CPR gives it a more "real" feel (i.e., treacherous), assuming one can configure it properly. I may never know--I just get too damned frustrated with it. Glad it works for you , though.... Michael Tracy ------------------------------------------------------ Lisa: "That's specious reasoning!" Homer: "Thanks, honey." ------------------------------------------------------

Michael, Download the setups on the various CPR web sites when new ones are posted. The old ones don't work very well now that the patch has changed the grip on the cars. There should be new setups available soon. Dave

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>On 11 Jan 1998 22:16:02 GMT, "Mikes Designs" >>Well I might get flamed for this but................... >(edit) >No flame, Mike, just a question: What modifications did >you have to make to the default settings to get CPR to >run so well? Were these adjustments that would be >applicable to most computers, or modifications for >your particular machine, or a combination? >I guess I don't have the patience to*** with this >stuff--GP2 has a way of spoiling people like me who >aren't that interested in playing with setups (although >you *can* play with setups all you like, if you feel >so inclined). >Maybe the handling of CPR gives it a more "real" >feel (i.e., treacherous), assuming one can configure >it properly. I may never know--I just get too damned >frustrated with it. Glad it works for you , though.... >Michael Tracy >------------------------------------------------------ >Lisa: "That's specious reasoning!" >Homer: "Thanks, honey." >------------------------------------------------------

Well being new to this sim racing I have been using Jim Getz samples ( forgive if I have the name wrong ) and the sample settings that came with the newest MS patch. As far as the computer goes well I do tweak alot but basically I think its this STB Velocity running off AGP port + 64MB of sdram. Also after reading how much folks with 3dfx love F1rs and hate CPR I think the fact CPR was written for D3D is probably 1 reason it runs so well for me.Like you I haven't been doing much in car set-ups yet...... but in the long run I am looking forward to this aspect as much as anything. I think it will be fun and add to overall pleasure of this sim. BTW I just got done on the Zone and I am sooo stoked connex were great! you can also type from in your car during the race to communicate to others its too cool. I hear what your saying about GP2 with a following like it has I can hardly wait to get it later this week. Like I said though driving model is first to me all else can be forgiven in light of Human competition. Aloha, Mike ( ps thanks for not flaming me hehe )

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> On 11 Jan 1998 22:16:02 GMT, "Mikes Designs" > >Well I might get flamed for this but................... > (edit) > No flame, Mike, just a question: What modifications did > you have to make to the default settings to get CPR to > run so well?

No flame here, just my thoughts on the slip sliding around the track. It may be a good simulation of how a sprint car might react on a Dirt track, but when was the last time you saw an Championship break loose/slide that much? Ok Alex Zanardi can do donuts, and so can I in CPR, but that is not my interest in the program.

Hi Brian, no you missed my point completely. I know what your saying but its not what I meant . This car can be set up to track but Im saying if you dont respect 800+ horses this is how it will react. As for break loose and slide you think a cart car doesn't? aloha, Mike

I never said it is not possible to break loose, 1.0.89 would break loose 1. If you pushed too hard. 2. When the tires were gone, the setup was gone, and you began to push, slide, oversteer etc. Remember Championship cars have tunnels, and tons of down force to help them stick to the road. In version 1.0.90 , it seems like all down force is gone, and I am racing my family car. In fact in my family car, I glanced down at my speedometer on the way to work last night as I took a 90 deg turn rather fast, I didn't break loose at all, no tire squeal etc. I was going faster than you are able to go on a comparable turn in a championship car in CPR, with soft slicks, downforce etc. My point is that my Honda is not a race car, but it handles better with street tires than the cars in this simulation. Oh by the way, I was within the legal speed limit for that turn last night.

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>Hi Brian, no you missed my point completely. I know what your saying but >its not what I meant >. This car can be set up to track but Im saying if you dont respect 800+ >horses this is how it will react. As for break loose and slide you think a >cart car doesn't? aloha, Mike >> No flame here, just my thoughts on the slip sliding around the track. >> It may be a good simulation of how a sprint car might react on a Dirt >track, >> but when was the last time you saw an Championship break loose/slide that >> much? Ok Alex Zanardi can do donuts, and so can I in CPR, but that is not >my >> interest in the program.

Hi Brian, I dont know how to answer this response. It is true some down force has been removed I guess that wasn't the best way to make the AI more competitive but........its not like you cant easily add DF. Also I think you still misunderstand my 1st statement when I was talking about the ability to bring the rear around I meant in a realistic way i.e.: to hot on the gas when finishing a turn etc. I in no way meant it was slippery in a uncontrollable way. I hope you will continue to work out some set-ups as I think you will find it quite rewarding. Hehe not to be a clown but wow thats some Honda you got there!! B^) Aloha, Mike , it seems like all down force is

>I never said it is not possible to break loose, 1.0.89 would break loose 1. >If you pushed too hard. 2. When the tires were gone, the setup was gone, and >you began to push, slide, oversteer etc. >Remember Championship cars have tunnels, and tons of down force to help them >stick to the road. In version 1.0.90 , it seems like all down force is >gone, and I am racing my family car. In fact in my family car, I glanced >down at my speedometer on the way to work last night as I took a 90 deg turn >rather fast, I didn't break loose at all, no tire squeal etc. I was going >faster than you are able to go on a comparable turn in a championship car in >CPR, with soft slicks, downforce etc. My point is that my Honda is not a >race car, but it handles better with street tires than the cars in this >simulation. Oh by the way, I was within the legal speed limit for that turn >last night. I find it hard to believe that the pre-patch grip was correct. You could pretty much slam down the throttle after hitting the apex of the turn. 800 hp has got to send the rear end flying under these conditions. With the patch, you have to feed the throttle in gradually through the exit of the turn, and it's important to drive the correct line. I'm not sure what the correct grip is supposed to be. I believe the CART team originally stated that the real CART drivers said that the original grip was correct. If this was true, why change it. On the other hand, the lap times were too fast considering that the tracks are accurate. Something has to be wrong. I'd be interested in hearing how they determined the correct grip. Hopefully, they consulted with the CART drivers. As far as comparing your Honda to CART cars, you can go over 100 mph in 90 degree turns in the patched version. I do this on 3 90 degree turns at Elhart Lake. Also, Honda's are front wheel drive and have like 110 hp, considerably less than an 800 hp CART car. -- Kevin (Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

I should have mentioned before, Cars in Cart Precision Racing handle almost exactly like my lifted 1978 Jeep CJ5 with Fiberglass body. It has 33 inch bias ply tires, that cause a lot of road wondering, and I sometimes can't tell exactly where it will steer next. The ride is harsh and I can brake it's rear tires loose unexpectedly. I have that sometimes uncomfortable feeling in the middle of sharp turns, that I better back off or I will be offroad or rolling. The above may sound funny, but which car is a Championship car closer to, a Jeep CJ5 or a Honda CRX SI? Ok, I'll give the CJ5 rearwheel drive, but that's as close as it gets! Can you see the humor in this?

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>Hi Brian, >I dont know how to answer this response. It is true some down force has >been removed I guess that wasn't the best way to make the AI more >competitive but........its not like you cant easily add DF. Also I think >you still misunderstand my 1st statement when I was talking about the >ability to bring the rear around I meant in a realistic way i.e.: to hot on >the gas when finishing a turn etc. I in no way meant it was slippery in a >uncontrollable way. I hope you will continue to work out some set-ups as I >think you will find it quite rewarding. Hehe not to be a clown but wow >thats some Honda you got there!! B^) Aloha, Mike >, it seems like all down force is >> gone, and I am racing my family car. In fact in my family car, I glanced >> down at my speedometer on the way to work last night as I took a 90 deg >turn >> rather fast, I didn't break loose at all, no tire squeal etc. I was going >> faster than you are able to go on a comparable turn in a championship car >in >> CPR, with soft slicks, downforce etc. My point is that my Honda is not a >> race car, but it handles better with street tires than the cars in this >> simulation. Oh by the way, I was within the legal speed limit for that >turn >> last night.

Yes! This is what I meant when I said check out the power slides at Cleveland. Its was the excessive grip that seemed unbelievable to me in the pre patch. IMHO this is what it should feel like. Thanks for putting it across better than I Kevin. Aloha, Mike

You point is well taken, I do realize that 800 hp is available. One question I have is 800 hp at what rpm? 800 hp at what turbo boost pressure? Yes maybe 800+ hp on an oval with sustained rpms of 14000. I know that the engine development programs have provided increased hp, but I doubt that 800+ hp is available through the entire engine RPM range, and Turbo RPM range. Remember back in the days when the best cars and drivers used to go to that 2.5 mile track in Indiana (Forget the name), and Roberto Guerro <sp> applied too much power on a warm up lap, and his low downforce setup surprised him by having the incredible grip of the soft ***ed tires hook up, not spin, and send him into the wall. Goodyear and Firestone are supplying tires that really grip the road until they wear out. I would not mind if the grip in CPR would eventually get to the slippery condition that it now starts at, but should it start at a no grip condition? Yes I agree that patch 1.0.89 may have had too much grip, and maybe it lasts too long before the tires actually go away, but the change to 1.0.90 grip level I feel was too much. If the grip settings in 1.0.90 are correct, how will you know when the tires went away? Just drive the entire race with one set of tires, I doubt that CPR has any programming to simulate a tire explosion after all of the *** is gone. Just imagine this, the grip levels of 1.0.89 are ruduced a little, and if I drive with my foot to the floor through all the turns, (relying on the adhesion of the tires to the road alone, and having a poor setup), then the tires go away, and I have to get new tires becuse I trashed these. Now imagine, I back off of the throttle, and not push the car through the turns, not pushing the tires past there limits, on a good or bad setup. The tires last a bit longer. And let's say I am in a battle on the Zone for position, and the leader has been over driving, and wasting his tires, and I run in second place, but take care of my tires, and take over the lead when the previous leader pits for new tires every few laps. Is that not a little more realistic? I am not asking that the cars have grip like 1.0.89 for the entire race, that would be boring. What if you had the variable to contend with though that if you over drive the car, your tires go away? Would that not be a better simulation? I recall one team of the 1997 season having this trouble at Long Beach because of a faulty pressure guage. Michael Andretti and Roberto Moreno each had cars that were handling extreemly well, maybe too well, but knowone realized that the rear tires were under inflated and providing unrealistically good performance that would not last the entire race. When Michael and Roberto each place new tires on their cars, left the pits, they were flying around the track, but that performance was short lived, and the tires blew again, and again. The settings that I was using in both 1.0.89 and 1.0.90 both had very high wing settings which would cause high drag and higher cornering performance. Yes maybe the speeds in this high drag condition were too fast in 1.0.89, but reducing traction and cornering were not the answer, the formula should have just slowed the car down, and if I want to go faster, I reduce drag to increase speed, in turn reducing downforce and cornering ability, maybe to the point of the performance level in 1.0.90. Those decisions would have been mine by choice and I think it would be a better simulation. I would have to believe there are teams out there, that have good car performance for a few laps, but destroy the tires. Maybe that is why we hear that tire manufacture and teams do thousands of miles of tire testing during the off season so that they can determine setups and compounds that work. I forgot to mention above, that the setup I used in both versions of the patch utilized the soft compound tire which would wear faster than a higher compound but provide extremely good grip, but short term performance. sound like a real simulation?) A tire of this compound would not be my choice for a race though, because I'd know it may not hold up during a race. I'd chose a harder compound, and reduce performance, lower grip like 1.0.90 but not have to pit every five laps during the race from over driving! Maybe what I look for is a simulation, not an arcade game where there is no reasons to utilize the features that were just starting to be developed. Soft tire = High performance but short life. Hard tire = lower performance but long life I doubt that these settings are even used in 1.0.90 by anyone because the darn grip is so low when using the soft tires. Everyone out there is gonna be using setups with soft tires now, (Unless a bug is found that provide higher grip on harder tires) just because everyone thought that the grip was "too high in 1.0.89" when in fact the speeds were too high with large wing, and high drag settings and or the tires lasted too long under these conditions. I'll just wait for Papyrus to make their next program. I'm sick of this program. >>I never said it is not possible to break loose, 1.0.89 would break loose 1.

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>>If you pushed too hard. 2. When the tires were gone, the setup was gone, >and >>you began to push, slide, oversteer etc. >>Remember Championship cars have tunnels, and tons of down force to help >them >>stick to the road. In version 1.0.90 , it seems like all down force is >>gone, and I am racing my family car. In fact in my family car, I glanced >>down at my speedometer on the way to work last night as I took a 90 deg >turn >>rather fast, I didn't break loose at all, no tire squeal etc. I was going >>faster than you are able to go on a comparable turn in a championship car >in >>CPR, with soft slicks, downforce etc. My point is that my Honda is not a >>race car, but it handles better with street tires than the cars in this >>simulation. Oh by the way, I was within the legal speed limit for that >turn >>last night. >I find it hard to believe that the pre-patch grip was correct. You could >pretty much slam down the throttle after hitting the apex of the turn. 800 >hp has got to send the rear end flying under these conditions. With the >patch, you have to feed the throttle in gradually through the exit of the >turn, and it's important to drive the correct line. >I'm not sure what the correct grip is supposed to be. I believe the CART >team originally stated that the real CART drivers said that the original >grip was correct. If this was true, why change it. On the other hand, the >lap times were too fast considering that the tracks are accurate.

Something

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>has to be wrong. I'd be interested in hearing how they determined the >correct grip. Hopefully, they consulted with the CART drivers. >As far as comparing your Honda to CART cars, you can go over 100 mph in 90 >degree turns in the patched version. I do this on 3 90 degree turns at >Elhart Lake. Also, Honda's are front wheel drive and have like 110 hp, >considerably less than an 800 hp CART car. >-- >Kevin >(Remove the "x-" prefix from my address in order to reply via email)

Just out of curiosity have you been driving with tire wear set to on in the realism menu? I like it best with all on in the realism menu except pace lap. Aloha, Mike If the grip settings in 1.0.90 are correct, how

Aloha, Mike! (I'm Chinese-Hawaiian) Anyway, it was good to read your thoughts on the current driving model of CPR. I must add though that the driving experience at Fontana is nothing like how it is in real-life. In real-life the pros are taking turns 1 and 2 with a slight lift and 3 and 4 flat-out (or at least from Al Jr.'s mouth at his Fontana fan club meeting). When I was watching the qualifying for the Marlboro 500 on the deuce (espn2), there was a track map with the trap speeds posted on Big Mo's 240.942 (30.316 sec.) lap around the beautiful 2.029 mile (YES, CA Speedway is NOT 2.000 miles). His top straight speed was 242 and he was doing 240 in the TURNS! From my testing at fiddling so far w/ CPR after the patch, I think it's impossible for anyone to do this in CPR. Sure, I'd top out at 249 easily (is this "speed limit" because of the car's drag?), but I have to lift slightly for the turns to take them around 220-230 (depending on fuel load and stuff). I hope someone out there can prove me wrong by creating an AWESOME Fontana setup!!! =) Loren Team SAVATS

Rehi Loren, I just got back from the Zone and some really are doing some good set-ups. I hope I get the hang of it too! Great to see another Hawaiian here ;-) Hey is this DejaVu or did my last post not get thru to you? Keep in touch, Aloha, Mike