New CART game from Papyrus/Sierra in 1999

From Online *** Review - 1/8/98 "Sierra and Papyrus, makers of CART Racing (previously known as IndyCar Racing II) will be producing a new CART racing sim to be released in the spring of 1999. The yet unnamed sim will continue to use the CART license, which Sierra has use of until July 2003." Hmmm, may just have to pass on MS CPR and put my money away for this one (and a few upgrades for my system as well - God only knows what the "true" requirements for this thing will be!!!) Was that a big THUD I heard coming from the MS "cash register"? Tim

I saw this too this morning. I can't wait. I will probably buy GPL, but Grand Prix is not my 'thing'. I love CART, and I am so happy that Papy is doing Cart again.... It'll Rule. (Unless the F**K it up :) ) Jeff

Quoted text (13 lines)

> From Online *** Review - 1/8/98 > "Sierra and Papyrus, makers of CART Racing (previously known as IndyCar > Racing II) will be producing a new CART racing sim to be released in the > spring of 1999. The yet unnamed sim will continue to use the CART license, > which Sierra has use of until July 2003." > Hmmm, may just have to pass on MS CPR and put my money away for this one > (and a few upgrades for my system as well - God only knows what the "true" > requirements for this thing will be!!!) Was that a big THUD I heard coming > from the MS "cash register"? > Tim

I would buy any thing from Papyrus because you know it's going to be GOOD! I won't even waste my time on CPR because that's what it needs is C.P.R.!

ROFL. This is funny. "It'll be good...unless it isn't" <G> Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

unlike MS/Tri who are dedicated to "Hey, let's just shove it down their throats and rake that money in". << What would you call IndyCar II for Windows 95?! I love Papyrus, don't get me wrong, but lets not over-romanticize them. They ***up sometimes too. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

Uh, how about an option? What's over-romaticizing about calling Papyrus a software house dedicated to producing racing sims, although, his mention of MS / TRI is a bit much. Cheers! Marc

> I saw this too this morning. I can't wait. I will probably buy GPL, but Grand > Prix is not my 'thing'. I love CART, and I am so happy that Papy is doing > Cart again.... It'll Rule. (Unless the F**K it up :) ) Not likely. Remember, Papy is a software house dedicated to race sims unlike MS/Tri who are dedicated to "Hey, let's just shove it down their throats and rake that money in".

>> I saw this too this morning. I can't wait. I will probably buy GPL, but Grand >> Prix is not my 'thing'. I love CART, and I am so happy that Papy is doing >> Cart again.... It'll Rule. (Unless the F**K it up :) ) I don't think they will mess it up, Papy has not disappointed me so far, racing sims are the ONLY thing they do, and IMO they are the best at it. With all the new things Papy is working on (GPL, Reno Air Races, N3, New Cart sim), I see a bright future in sim racing this year (sure there are always disappointments, CPR, IRC, etc), but Papy has consistently produced awesome racing sims! (and I hope they do for a long time to come!) John

producing racing sims, although, his mention of MS / TRI is a bit much>> It was the latter that bugged me more than the former. Papyrus=wonderful, MS/TRI=crap, and all that. Randy Randy Magruder Staff Writer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com/

Ah, so! =) Cheers! Marc

> >> Not likely. Remember, Papy is a software house dedicated to race sims > unlike MS/Tri who are dedicated to "Hey, let's just shove it down their > throats and rake that money in". > << > What would you call IndyCar II for Windows 95?! Good for viewing setups in win95 and a waist of space after that :) Yes, but not as bad as some recent efforts! I would also say that if they seperated from Sierra and became the complete pure bred then it would actually be possible for them to release games that, if needing patches, would only be for minor issues anyway.

> >> It'll Rule. (Unless the F**K it up :) ) > ROFL. This is funny. "It'll be good...unless it isn't" <G> LOL. I thought that was a strange thing for him to tag on too!

If they did that you would see a raise in game prises and probally the technical support wouldn't be as good. Also because of lack of money game quality would go down and eventually Papyrus would sink. God forbid that ever happening, if it did... I'd take my own life to go with it. Well I wouldn't actually kill my self, but I'd be damn pissed. So for the sake of the company let's just assume they stay with Sierra. -- Andrew Perkins ____ ICQ: 4274592 /__[]_[]__/ _ _ | |[]-----------------[]| | | |[]-----------------[]| | | |[]-----------------[]| | | |_____________________| | | | Production Manager | | | | DFL | | | |http://pages.infinit.| | | | net/nwo/ | | |_|_____________________|_|

Well. When I first saw CPR, I though that is would blow ICR2 away. Then I got it and found out that it was jsut a hack. MS has just released the patch, and I heard a rumor that they don't have solid plans for another patch -- I would call that a F**K up! Don't do this Papyrus! Jeff > > >> It'll Rule. (Unless the F**K it up :) ) > > ROFL. This is funny. "It'll be good...unless it isn't" <G> > LOL. I thought that was a strange thing for him to tag on too!

Papyrus no longer dominates the sim industry it seems as if the other companies have caught up with them, if you look at Ubisofts F1 it blows any papyrus sim away to date. And the funny thing this is their first attempt at making an F1 simulation.

> >> What's over-romaticizing about calling Papyrus a software house dedicated to > producing racing sims, although, his mention of MS / TRI is a bit much>> > It was the latter that bugged me more than the former. Papyrus=wonderful, > MS/TRI=crap, and all that. But is it not true? On current form? Sentiment like this exists for good reason.

Ummmm, me thinks Papy should be pretty strong in the resource dept these days. Definantly a matter of luxury rather than neccessity. I just hope they don't get fat and lazy :)

Ubi-F1 is good and up there with the Papyrus sims, but "blows away"?! Really? You must have a different product to the one I do. It's good, but not that good. Remember too that ICR2 is some years old now - let's wait and see what Papy's response to Ubi-F1 is, and indeed if Ubisoft will make any more sim products at all. I hope so, since Ubi-F1 has a lot of potential for something even better. Cheers! John

> Yes, but not as bad as some recent efforts! Agreed. Unless you have facts which back up your position, I don't think its fair to transfer all blame for Papyrus problems to Sierra. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

Quoted text (8 lines)

>> >> What's over-romaticizing about calling Papyrus a software house dedicated to >> producing racing sims, although, his mention of MS / TRI is a bit much>> >> It was the latter that bugged me more than the former. Papyrus=wonderful, >> MS/TRI=crap, and all that. > But is it not true? On current form? Sentiment like this exists for >good reason.

You're never as good as the public thinks you are, and you're never as bad as the public thinks you are. Its true in sports, and its true in software. I don't like comments like this because they tend to throw out the good with the bad (or the bad with the good), and make it rather difficult to do anything constructive about the problems. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage http://www.digitalsports.com

>You're never as good as the public thinks you are, and you're never as >bad as the public thinks you are. Its true in sports, and its true in >software. I don't like comments like this because they tend to throw >out the good with the bad (or the bad with the good), and make it >rather difficult to do anything constructive about the problems. I agree with you, but how about another take on it. From experience, I know I can buy any driving sim produced by Papyrus or Geoff Crammond and know that it will be worth the cost many times over. For any other developer I need a demo or the opinions of those I trust before I will lay out any cash. Cheers, Richard

Quoted text (14 lines)

> >> >> What's over-romaticizing about calling Papyrus a software house dedicated to > >> producing racing sims, although, his mention of MS / TRI is a bit much>> > >> It was the latter that bugged me more than the former. Papyrus=wonderful, > >> MS/TRI=crap, and all that. > > But is it not true? On current form? Sentiment like this exists for > >good reason. > You're never as good as the public thinks you are, and you're never as > bad as the public thinks you are. Its true in sports, and its true in > software. I don't like comments like this because they tend to throw > out the good with the bad (or the bad with the good), and make it > rather difficult to do anything constructive about the problems.

The business of ironing out the problems is not mine or yours. No software product should be released as unfinished as CPR was. We pay for the software company to release a finished product. The notion of the public being used as slaves to iron out games is totally ridiculous. Funnily enough I have paused to watch the news in the middle of writing this - news about the browser wars and MS being sued. I was hoping to here some type of consumer affairs issue reguarding CPR or others but had to settle for their offices in Japan being raided because of some security infringement or something. Get the idea? Like I said, anti MS sentiment exists for good reason. I hope they get utterly screwed in court!

Quoted text (16 lines)

> >Papyrus no longer dominates the sim industry it seems as if the other companies > >have caught up with them, if you look at Ubisofts F1 it blows any papyrus sim > >away to date. And the funny thing this is their first attempt at making an F1 > >simulation. > Ubi-F1 is good and up there with the Papyrus sims, but "blows away"?! > Really? You must have a different product to the one I do. It's good, > but not that good. > Remember too that ICR2 is some years old now - let's wait and see what > Papy's response to Ubi-F1 is, and indeed if Ubisoft will make any more > sim products at all. I hope so, since Ubi-F1 has a lot of potential > for something even better. > Cheers! > John

I think it's more a matter of how F1RS stacks up against GP2. And I think the main difference is how well it runs on most computers about these days. When Voodoo II hits it may then be a case of Blowing them away - fingers crossed. But somehow I think ICR3 and GP3 will blow this awat too. The good thing is GP3 has competition but I doubt Papy are overly worried about CPR at this stage.

Quoted text (9 lines)

> > Yes, but not as bad as some recent efforts! > Agreed. > >I would also say that if >they seperated from Sierra and became the complete pure bred then it > >would actually be possible for them to release games that, if needing patches, would only be for minor issues anyway. > Unless you have facts which back up your position, I don't think its > fair to transfer all blame for Papyrus problems to Sierra.

I have had big frustrations from Sierra over their gridiron sim being upgraded? every 12 months thus preventing a proper upgrade. I ultimately found out that the NFL was responsible for this - or at least that's what I was told. If you had seen the state FBPro 98 was shipped in (to get it out before the gridiron season) you would know why I have anti Sierra sentiment. Typical of big money orientated companies and their hopeless suits. I don't know how CART licensing works but I would prefer to see Papy away from suspect giants with a so called practical business sense.

> I think it's more a matter of how F1RS stacks up against GP2. And I > think the main difference is how well it runs on most computers about > these days. When Voodoo II hits it may then be a case of Blowing them > away - fingers crossed. But somehow I think ICR3 and GP3 will blow this > awat too. The good thing is GP3 has competition but I doubt Papy are > overly worried about CPR at this stage. I would disagree on that last bit....ICR2 is now pushing 3 years and has been totally ignored by Papy for the last 2. (a key group of ICR2 programmers left Papy about then)No updates, patches, track enhancements....If they didn't need a beta for 3d support of N2 we probably wouldn't have seen the 3d stuff either. But then...CPR comes along, and Psynosis starts working on a CART game and poof! Sierra repackages ICR2 as CART Racing. Then they announce an updated CART sim well over a year away...They might not be worried about CPR from a programming standpoint...but the marketing folks have gotta be.

> The business of ironing out the problems is not mine or yours. No >software product should be released as unfinished as CPR was. Agreed. Nevertheless, that is the current situation. Undoubtedly those who aren't CART fanatics have already looked at it and moved on. Unfortunately, I'm a CART ***. I just gotta have it :). So, I would rather feed MS as much information they need to get me the CART sim that *I* want. Now, if Papyrus were to have a new version of CART on the shelves right now that did everything MS did and did it right, I would probably not spend as much effort as I have been tossing whatever I can MS' way in hopes of helping them (I wouldn't need to. They'd have Papyrus' sim to look at!). But unfortunately, no one here or at MS can undo what has been done. They can only improve it. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]

Well said Randy, I am in this for the long haul too cause I am also a CART ***! George Sandman Zone Name The_Sandman1 Stealth Racing #1 1997 CICC PPG Champion 1996 CICC PPG Champion 1996 NWSICT PPG Champion 1996 FRL PPG Champion >> The business of ironing out the problems is not mine or yours. No >>software product should be released as unfinished as CPR was. >Agreed. >>We pay for the software company to release a finished product. The notion of the

Quoted text (18 lines)

>>public being used as slaves to iron out games is totally ridiculous. >Nevertheless, that is the current situation. Undoubtedly those who >aren't CART fanatics have already looked at it and moved on. >Unfortunately, I'm a CART ***. I just gotta have it :). So, I >would rather feed MS as much information they need to get me the CART >sim that *I* want. Now, if Papyrus were to have a new version of CART >on the shelves right now that did everything MS did and did it right, >I would probably not spend as much effort as I have been tossing >whatever I can MS' way in hopes of helping them (I wouldn't need to. >They'd have Papyrus' sim to look at!). But unfortunately, no one here >or at MS can undo what has been done. They can only improve it. >Randy >Randy Magruder >Contributing Reviewer >Digital Sportspage >[link lost in import]

Right on Randy, As most know I feel the exact same way! This is still not a " Perfect Sim" but I still say its pretty dang good so far. Hopefully with some positive constuctive input from the folks who use it they will add even more to it. Aloha, Mike > > The business of ironing out the problems is not mine or yours. No > >software product should be released as unfinished as CPR was. > Agreed. > >We pay for the software company to release a finished product. The notion of the

Quoted text (18 lines)

> >public being used as slaves to iron out games is totally ridiculous. > Nevertheless, that is the current situation. Undoubtedly those who > aren't CART fanatics have already looked at it and moved on. > Unfortunately, I'm a CART ***. I just gotta have it :). So, I > would rather feed MS as much information they need to get me the CART > sim that *I* want. Now, if Papyrus were to have a new version of CART > on the shelves right now that did everything MS did and did it right, > I would probably not spend as much effort as I have been tossing > whatever I can MS' way in hopes of helping them (I wouldn't need to. > They'd have Papyrus' sim to look at!). But unfortunately, no one here > or at MS can undo what has been done. They can only improve it. > Randy > Randy Magruder > Contributing Reviewer > Digital Sportspage > [link lost in import]

On 15 Jan 1998 16:15:09 GMT, "Mikes Designs" >Right on Randy, As most know I feel the exact same way! This is still not a >" Perfect Sim" but I still say its pretty dang good so far. Hopefully with >some positive constuctive input from the folks who use it they will add >even more to it. Aloha, Mike Positive constructive input has been oozing, nay, even gushing forth from this newsgroup since the release, and yet the unpredictable driving experience and AS computer cars remain as disappointing as ever. If Ford delivers a car to the market that doesn't work and you have 10 trips to the garage with not even a commitment of improvement, you don't waste your time continuing to do their job and research then fix the problems. They've got people hired to research the market before even setting out on a project, and test the waters throughout. The only way to improve things in the modern world is to complain - if that isn't heard then you vote with your feet and you vote with your wallet by shopping elsewhere. Not only shopping elsewhere, but writing to the guy in charge telling him what you're doing and why you're doing it. Money talks, and _everything_ else walks, and that's the case with 99% of business today. Cheers! John

Quoted text (15 lines)

> > I think it's more a matter of how F1RS stacks up against GP2. And I > > think the main difference is how well it runs on most computers about > > these days. When Voodoo II hits it may then be a case of Blowing them > > away - fingers crossed. But somehow I think ICR3 and GP3 will blow this > > awat too. The good thing is GP3 has competition but I doubt Papy are > > overly worried about CPR at this stage. > I would disagree on that last bit....ICR2 is now pushing 3 years and has been > totally ignored by Papy for the last 2. (a key group of ICR2 programmers left Papy > about then)No updates, patches, track enhancements....If they didn't need a beta for > 3d support of N2 we probably wouldn't have seen the 3d stuff either. But then...CPR > comes along, and Psynosis starts working on a CART game and poof! Sierra repackages > ICR2 as CART Racing. Then they announce an updated CART sim well over a year > away...They might not be worried about CPR from a programming standpoint...but the > marketing folks have gotta be.

I'm not too sure about this either. If you all of a sudden had niether ICR2 or CPR and had to buy iether one at full price again, which would it be? For me, ICR2 would be a no brainer. Far better to have a well finished sim than one with mere potential. As far as Psynosis goes, I hear it's arcade material and is really in a different class ie lower class kiddies toy. From my perspective ICR2 is still the only real CART sim out there. I wish Papy had a little more competition to bring the best out of them. On the other hand it will probably prevent them from using rush tactics to get it out on time and we might end up with a well finished product. How refreshing that would be :))))

Quoted text (18 lines)

> > The business of ironing out the problems is not mine or yours. No > >software product should be released as unfinished as CPR was. > Agreed. > >We pay for the software company to release a finished product. The notion of the > >public being used as slaves to iron out games is totally ridiculous. > Nevertheless, that is the current situation. Undoubtedly those who > aren't CART fanatics have already looked at it and moved on. > Unfortunately, I'm a CART ***. I just gotta have it :). So, I > would rather feed MS as much information they need to get me the CART > sim that *I* want. Now, if Papyrus were to have a new version of CART > on the shelves right now that did everything MS did and did it right, > I would probably not spend as much effort as I have been tossing > whatever I can MS' way in hopes of helping them (I wouldn't need to. > They'd have Papyrus' sim to look at!). But unfortunately, no one here > or at MS can undo what has been done. They can only improve it.

I do like CART very much because of the level playing field it presents drivers compared to F1, although the loss of the Indy event was a big blow for me. I have always favoured F1 as my prefered form of motorsport but am disgusted with the current administration and there spastic retardation of the sport - they should be killed off and a new admin built (no smiley here). Along the same wall waiting to be shot should be those responsible for the Indy 500 screwup. In any case, when it comes to sims I will use the one that is the best. To date, ICR2 is the best because it is near perfect as an offline racing platform for internet competition and is a very close second to GP2 as far as driving model and AI go. GP2, as we serious simmers all know, is a joke as an offline internet racing platform ie drivers using steering help and all that nonsense. I hope your perseverance with CPR pays off but I have my doubts. I am so furious with MS releasing the sim as was that unless I hear reports of near perfection being attained by ?????future???? patches then I'll be giving CPR a VERY BIG MISS. (I will point out that this is the perspective from an Aussie who cannot fully utilise CPR's online qualities) I just had the thought that MS gave up on CPR when they appreciated how difficult the whole sim task is and delayed the patch to void 30 day money back obligations to sidestep complete disaster. I hope this thought is purely paranoid. With some of the things I hear about Build 90 (terminal top speeds, pit problems, continued bad and uncompetitive AI) I am unfortunately loosing faith fast as are many others. Do yourself a favour and get off the Titanic before she goes under. I hate to see people suffer like that. I'm already in a life raft loaded full of women who are totally dependant on me and headed for the nearest igloo. On second thoughts, you guys stick with the ship, hehehehehehehehe.

> I hope your perseverance with CPR pays off but I have my doubts. I'm not sure you'd call it perseverance. I have plenty of other things to do with my time (including an upcoming review of F1RS -- hint: I won't be quite as ***ic as many people are about it <G>). I got a review copy of CPR and I was one of the testers for the patch (Please don't shoot me. I gave them my feedback and that's all I could do :) ), so there's nothing to be gained by 'returning' it. If CPR doesn't end up being a full-fledged CART sim, oh well...all I can do is sigh and move on. I seriously doubt that this was the case. Microsoft isn't so hard up for the cash that it would seriously hurt them if every CPR copy was returned. Look at how much they darned near GIVE away (relative to investment and R&D time) . (How much did YOU pay for your operating system? <G>) Analogy only works if I go down with it. There are several other sim lifeboats to jump on. Randy Randy Magruder Contributing Reviewer Digital Sportspage [link lost in import]