Heel-Toe Pedal Setup

Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe driving? Or perhaps one of the pedals out there that can be used this way? I realize F1 and CART are into automatic shifting with no clutch, but alas, in ameture racing this is not the case, and one thin i never got a great grasp on was heel-toe and I'd love to be able to practice it in my house for free. :) I doubt it really exists, but thought i'd ask. Thanks. --Scott

> Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe > driving? Though it probably won't be of any useful value, Grand Prix 2 from MicroProse has a separate button/pedal selection for the clutch. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Thomas Super Wheel has a slot for an optional clutch pedal. If not, I think another wheel/pedal setup has the availability. This should be something that racing sims should incorporate, especially NASCAR and rally (since those are the only remaining cars simmed that have an acutal H-pattern gearbox). Hope this helps! -John :|:

(snip) .....and rally (since those are the only remaining cars simmed that have an acutal H-pattern gearbox). (unsnip) Most of the cars used in major rallies now have the sequential gearboxes. -- Bruce (at work) "Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get tired." (Jules Renard)

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> Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe > driving? Or perhaps one of the pedals out there that can be used this > way? I realize F1 and CART are into automatic shifting with no clutch, > but alas, in ameture racing this is not the case, and one thin i never > got a great grasp on was heel-toe and I'd love to be able to practice it > in my house for free. :) I doubt it really exists, but thought i'd > ask. Thanks. > --Scott

I always thought heel-toe referred to simultaneous braking and acceleration ??

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> > Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe > > driving? Or perhaps one of the pedals out there that can be used this > > way? I realize F1 and CART are into automatic shifting with no clutch, > > but alas, in ameture racing this is not the case, and one thin i never > > got a great grasp on was heel-toe and I'd love to be able to practice it > > in my house for free. :) I doubt it really exists, but thought i'd > > ask. Thanks. > > --Scott > I always thought heel-toe referred to simultaneous braking and > acceleration ??

left foot is pressing the clutch you have your heel of your right foot on the brake and your toe is pressing the accelerater to rev the motor up inorder to keep the rpm's up? i could be wrong.. also the clutch wouldnt do anygood on nascar because the only time they use a clutch is while they are in the pits and on road courses. -- Brian Motisko BMR Racing #96 Jolt Cola, Hooters Ford taurus http://members.aol.com/bmotisko/private/index.htm http://www.concentric.net/~motisko/nasra.htm

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> Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe > driving? Or perhaps one of the pedals out there that can be used this > way? I realize F1 and CART are into automatic shifting with no clutch, > but alas, in ameture racing this is not the case, and one thin i never > got a great grasp on was heel-toe and I'd love to be able to practice it > in my house for free. :) I doubt it really exists, but thought i'd > ask. Thanks. > --Scott

Hi Scott, funny you should mention this :) our new TSW 2 will feature an analog clutch pedal when it is released, right now a clutch is only useful in GP2 and in a limited manner but someday I'm sure some sim maker will wake up to the fact that real race cars do have clutches<g>! URL for our TSW site is: http://soli.inav.net/~thomas Trev

Yes, except you rarely have room in the footwell to 'heel and toe', it's usually the ball of the foot on the brake and the side of the foot dabbing the accelerator.

Woohoo! I've been using the various IndyCar/NASCAR/GP games for years as training for amateur sports car racing and the one thing that was really lacking was clutch/heel & toe. Proof that it works? I set one up for a friend when the SCCA runnoffs first went to Mid Ohio. He'd never been there before and he was fastest in both classes he runs on the first day of practice. Now if we can get it to work with the Touring Car setup for N2...

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> > > Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe > > > driving? Or perhaps one of the pedals out there that can be used this > > > way? I realize F1 and CART are into automatic shifting with no clutch, > > > but alas, in ameture racing this is not the case, and one thin i never > > > got a great grasp on was heel-toe and I'd love to be able to practice it > > > in my house for free. :) I doubt it really exists, but thought i'd > > > ask. Thanks. > > > --Scott > > I always thought heel-toe referred to simultaneous braking and > > acceleration ?? > left foot is pressing the clutch you have your heel of your right foot > on the brake and your toe is pressing the accelerater to rev the motor > up inorder to keep the rpm's up? i could be wrong.. also the clutch > wouldnt do anygood on nascar because the only time they use a clutch is > while they are in the pits and on road courses. > -- > Brian Motisko > BMR Racing > #96 Jolt Cola, Hooters Ford taurus > http://members.aol.com/bmotisko/private/index.htm > http://www.concentric.net/~motisko/nasra.htm

Okay, that's exactly what I meant, simultaneously braking and accel. with one foot. I was just talking about what you'd be using the right foor for. I turn my T2's pedal unit slightly sideways (reduces effective distance between the 2 pedals) to do it.

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> > > Does there exist an authentic pedal setup that one can simulate heel-toe > > > driving? Or perhaps one of the pedals out there that can be used this > > > way? I realize F1 and CART are into automatic shifting with no clutch, > > > but alas, in ameture racing this is not the case, and one thin i never > > > got a great grasp on was heel-toe and I'd love to be able to practice it > > > in my house for free. :) I doubt it really exists, but thought i'd > > > ask. Thanks. > > > --Scott > > I always thought heel-toe referred to simultaneous braking and > > acceleration ?? > left foot is pressing the clutch you have your heel of your right foot > on the brake and your toe is pressing the accelerater to rev the motor > up inorder to keep the rpm's up? i could be wrong.. also the clutch > wouldnt do anygood on nascar because the only time they use a clutch is > while they are in the pits and on road courses.

Heh, looks like I wasnt too clear. Nanker had it right, heel-toe (least the way I was taught) was right foot does both accel and brake. Typically you put your heel on the accel and then use your toe to brake (your toes are much more sensitive to the pressure and is thus easier to control the braking while still keeping the revs up on the gas. Simultaneously with your left foot you can ride the clutch if you want to decrease the power off the wheels while keeping the revs of the engine in your power range. This is also useful for when you need to keep the revs up under downshifting to prevent wheel-hop and other bad effects of poor downshifting into a corner. Anyways, after I wrote the post last night I got to thinking that I would probably get away doing the heel-toe one-footed accel-brake with almost any setup. I was feeling braindead last night anyways...oh well. :) Though I must say, a real clutch and shifting system would rock! Its not realistic, but would be cool anyways. --Scott

As a follow-up, The purpose of heel-toe was to match engine speed with the input shaft speed of the *** during shifting in old racecars that didn't have synchros. AFAIK, this is ancient history and totally unnecessary these days. (Got this from an ex-Formula Ford Pilot/Skip Barber instructor). Bill -------- "NASCAR is the Professional Wrestling of Motorsport." -Me-

I really wish that a good lower level racing sim would come out where we could use stuff like this. If FS 98 can have you start out in a C 172, then move up 4 or 5 planes before flying 747 then we should get the same thing in Auto-Sims. Start out in shifting go carts, dominate local area, go off to a driver/mechanic school series, make a name for yourself, get picked up by a FF2000 team, then up to Atlantics. This would be great in the upcomming just anounced CART sim from papy, not to hard to do either, just new 3DO body types and changes in weight, HP, grip, at least a few tracks for each series, ect. To bad there are not enough people out there who would want this to make it happen.

> As a follow-up, The purpose of heel-toe was to match engine speed with the > input shaft speed of the *** during shifting in old racecars that didn't > have synchros. AFAIK, this is ancient history and totally unnecessary these > days. (Got this from an ex-Formula Ford Pilot/Skip Barber instructor). This is certainly the "reason" for using heel-toe, but apparently 97 CART Champion Alex Zanardi drives his car only with his right foot. Jimmy Vasser uses right foot gas, left foot brake. This info came from a quote from Vasser at the '97 Toronto Indy talking about how the setup on the Target cars compares...because of the difference in driving style, their cars are set up differently. Jimmy also said that Alex is a "smoother" driver than he is (faster too, Chimmy). -- Neil Yeatman Ajax, Ontario, CANADA

>. AFAIK, this is ancient history and totally unnecessary these days. (Got this from an ex-Formula Ford Pilot/Skip Barber instructor). The described use for heel-toe is certainly ancient history and unnecessary. However, there is an even more important reason for employing it. It brings many advantages in providing the driver with better control during the transition from the braking zone to ( and through ) the turn-in point. In a car setup to take advantage of it, a driver can use heel-toe to provide smoother weight transfer in coming off the brake and onto the power. Especially with a rear-engined, rear weight bias, this becomes a critical factor. ( I have spun my Alpine A610 into the sandtrap at Brands when I lost concentration and didn't get this right :-) >This is certainly the "reason" for using heel-toe, but apparently >97 CART Champion Alex Zanardi drives his car only with his right foot. >Jimmy Vasser uses right foot gas, left foot brake. There are drivers in all championships who use the technique. There does not seem any strong evidence that this single technique makes for a good or bad driver - the exception being rallying, especially forest and snow, where no driver can suceed without being able to heel/toe ( along with change gear, operate handbrake, listen to navigator, read the road and aiming the navigators door at all immovable objects! ) Peter

> As a follow-up, The purpose of heel-toe was to match engine speed > with the input shaft speed of the *** during shifting in old > racecars that didn't have synchros. It's not just old racecars that don't have synchros... In fact I believe the Richmond transmissions (the non-Jerichos) used in WC don't have synchros. (The synchros are typically the weakest point in a transmission (ignoring the reverse idler assembly).) This is most certainly still needed in the current Barber cars (as well as a lot of other purpose-built racers). Their transmissions do not have synchros and some form of rev matching is needed to come down through the gearbox. Upshifting *can* be accomplished without the clutch by merely lifting slightly on the throttle to unload the gears and smartly shifting into the next gear. Failing to match revs properly on a non-synchro car will result in the gearbox being stuck in neutral until you get it roughly right. ---Jim

The Thrustmaster T2 pedal unit has such a slot (but no pedal). --- On Thu, 08 Jan 1998 21:00:28 -0800, "John P. Wilson" >Though it probably won't be of any useful value, Grand Prix 2 from >MicroProse has a separate button/pedal selection for the clutch. >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Thomas Super Wheel has a slot >for an optional clutch pedal. If not, I think another wheel/pedal setup >has the availability. ============= To e-mail me, kindly delete *hippo* from my address. Spammers: meet the hippo at super zippo.

Marc, the TSW and TSW 2 models will both have clutch pedals, there is even a version with real Momo racing pedals Trev

Trevor, thanks for the info about your TSW products. However, you misquoted my post. Actually, a preceding poster (John Wilson) had mentioned your TSW, and I followed up referring to the vacant clutch pedal slot in the Thrustmaster T2. ---

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>> >Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Thomas Super Wheel has a slot >> >for an optional clutch pedal. >Marc, the TSW and TSW 2 models will both have clutch pedals, there is even >a version with real Momo racing pedals >Trev

============= To e-mail me, kindly delete *hippo* from my address. Spammers: meet the hippo at super zippo.