I am now racing at expert level with all aids off except auto gears.
My first two circuits that i am attempting are Spa and Nurburgring.
I set myself to start 10th in single race mode and have to do lots of
restarts due to first corner accidents, so many so that i end up doing a
race save sometimes after the first corner if i do manage to get through
with all wings and wheels on! just so i can complete the race.
The AI seem to be ok and dont hit each other when there is no human
involved in the race, ie you start a race, pull off and watch them enter
the corner. But if you (the human) are involved they seem hell bent on
hitting you, as if they dont even know you are there.
Later, if you make it through the first corner, any overtaking move you
make must be very very clean, any gap left or slowness by you and they
will come back at you, this i dont mind and think its only normal, but
they seem to crash into you for no good reason other than to take the
line you are on.
I have now managed to win at both circuits without a saved game restart
but it took an awful long time in restarts to get away clean and i lost
a lot of races through AI tactics that would have got a real F1 driver
banned for the season.
Comments on the above anyone...
Another point, can you only have 1 saved race in each mode, ie single
race, grand prix etc?
If you hit race save in a race and you already have a race saved it
seems only to overwrite the original, even when you are at a different
circuit.
Mike.
--
08:06 on 01/04/98
From sunny Herne Bay, Kent.UK.
mailable also at
remove NO-SPAM to mail me.
F1RS AI and whether sim racers could match real drivers
A player complained about first-corner crashes with the F1 Racing Simulation AI, but most defended the AI as racing like real people. The discussion turned to why sim drivers can beat real lap times: free restarts, unlimited setup time, no physical risk and no g-forces. Posters also noted Jacques Villeneuve's reported success on the sim and lacked race-save naming.
Automated summary.
Mike,
Spa is well known for first corner incidents. I think the AI in F1RS is
great. It makes driving a challenge because the other cars drive like
other people racing hard. What's the point in a sim that lets you blast
past the opposition without a fight?
If you are careful in the first corner, and don't try to make up too many
places, then things are normally okay. In a number of cases where I
thought I've had cars drive into me, if I check out the replay, it's
normally my behaviour that caused the incident.
Steve.
Quoted text (9 lines)
>Mike, >> I set myself to start 10th in single race mode and have to do lots of >> restarts due to first corner accidents >Spa is well known for first corner incidents. I think the AI in F1RS is >great. It makes driving a challenge because the other cars drive like >other people racing hard. What's the point in a sim that lets you blast >past the opposition without a fight?Marc,
Probably.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't quite agree, for two
reasons:
1. Although the sims are 'simulations', if they were as realistic as the
'real thing' then as you say few people would even get off the starting
line (most people stall an F1 car when they first try). These things are
published as entertainment, and having no success is no fun.
I think you'd be suprised how much time the computer players put in when
compared to real F1 drivers. Unlike those using sims, F1 drivers can't
drive the car all hours that God sends. I think you'll find that the avid
sim players weekend equates to quite a few F1 testing sessions.
If all the aids are switched off, and these people are consistently coming
in first place on full distance races, then they are not 'average Joes' -
there is a great deal of skill involved in that kind of performance.
Cheers,
Steve.
Oops, the second reason is that you are assuming that the only people that
are capable of driving an F1 car are actually doing so. In the whole
world there are only 30 or so F1 driving jobs, but I'm sure there are many
more people capable of doing it.
Quoted text (12 lines)
>> > In expert mode, with all driving aids off (in all sims), there should >> > be no way that anyone can finish in 1st place in a race. The only >> > people that should manage this, are the actual drivers of F1, or >> > IndyCar etc. >> I understand what you are saying, but I don't quite agree, for two >> reasons: >Oops, the second reason is that you are assuming that the only people that >are capable of driving an F1 car are actually doing so. In the whole >world there are only 30 or so F1 driving jobs, but I'm sure there are many >more people capable of doing it.>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and
>then win a race. In reality you can give me a year of practice on any
>real circuit with the big boys, and there is no way I will finish in
>the top ten.
>Many people think GP2 is a great sim, but how can it be considered a
>real sim, when average Joes can come in first place.
A whole day setting up your car in F1RS would be the equivalent of
weeks of testing in real F1. How quick can you change your setup?
How quick can you restart a parctice session after trashing your car?
How easy is it to change every possible setting? A couple of mins at
the most. Maybe you should 30mins while they re-do your gearbox
instead?
If it was a real sim, 99% of people would give up on it after a day.
Do you have any idea how hard it is to drive an F1 car?
Now if they built a perfect karting simulation, that would be fun...
But a true F1 sim would leave most of us annoyed and frustrated.
Ubisoft have to tread that thin line that runs between true realism,
and home entertainment.
snip
> That is true, there are many capable F1 racers. There are a limited
> number of jobs, so not everyone can make it. But how can a simmer
> (with no actual F1 experience like me), be able to make it in first
> place? If these sims are realistic, then the best I should be able to
> accomplish is finishing a race in last place. Most likely I would be
> killed in some sort of crash. :)
That's it! You can drive on the limit all the time, real drivers can't
do that, if they want to stay alive... ;^)
l8er
ronny
--
|\ _,,,---,,_ I want to die like my Grandfather,
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ in his sleep.
|,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-' Not like the people in his car,
'---''(_/--' `-'\_) screaming their heads off!
> Another point, can you only have 1 saved race in each mode, ie single
> race, grand prix etc?
> If you hit race save in a race and you already have a race saved it
> seems only to overwrite the original, even when you are at a different
> circuit.
Cant you do saves under different names? I mean, cant you name your
racesaves? Is there only a default. Pretty silly if so!
It is so. You can't name your race saves, You can name your championship
after each race though. So, only one active race can be in progress at
any instant. Even more dumb : if you want to abandon race, you'll *have*
to watch the race in acclerated time.
But I LOVE this sim!
Stanley
> Cant you do saves under different names? I mean, cant you name
> your
> racesaves? Is there only a default. Pretty silly if so!
Nathan Wong heeft geschreven in bericht
Well........ this is true for the save-time point, but an F-1 driver can in
fact FEEL what the car does. Something we can not. We can not feel that the
car is beginning to slide or skid, or that it shakes in certain corners as
real F-1 drivers can.
To the people saying there are capable F-1 drivers that do not have an F-1
racing job:
F-1 drivers are coming from Karts first, some not, and have come a LONG way
to be an F-1 driver. Do you really belief that you can by-pass that
experience by driving a sim? That you really are up there when you win an
F1-RS championship?
For starts, do you sit there all soaked and wet when after 53 laps of Monza,
you cross the finish-line? I don't think so?
Do you feel the pressure of the brake-pedal when you hit it? Even Force
Feedback can't do this.
Do you feel G-Forces when taking a corner? Nope.
When you hit the barriers, are you dizzy? Blacked out?
What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features turned
of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil and dirt.
There's no wind influence. We do have rain these days, but it still isn't
the huge amount of spray I expected. It's very nice, but I still think I see
TOO much of the surroundings. I remember Mika Hakkinen say:"In heavy rain,
you drive by watching the light in front of you, you can't even see the
sides of the track." upon which the interviewer asked:"And the leader?"
Mika:"I guess he's guessing."
Many people just don't understand that a sim might approach the behaviour of
a car, but never will BE the car. When I see myself edging a pole on a
track, I really don't see myself getting this done in real life.
"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
[link lost in import]
[link lost in import]
Quoted text (13 lines)
>>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and >>then win a race. In reality you can give me a year of practice on any >>real circuit with the big boys, and there is no way I will finish in >>the top ten. >>Many people think GP2 is a great sim, but how can it be considered a >>real sim, when average Joes can come in first place. >A whole day setting up your car in F1RS would be the equivalent of >weeks of testing in real F1. How quick can you change your setup? >How quick can you restart a parctice session after trashing your car? >How easy is it to change every possible setting? A couple of mins at >the most. Maybe you should 30mins while they re-do your gearbox >instead?I'll check it, but I think you can name your own save games. I think that
the real file on the HD is not renamed, but that this file is all saved
games together, a-la Quake and Hexen which also have one file for all saved
games.
At least, I typed a name for my saved game in Australia.
"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
[link lost in import]
[link lost in import]
>In expert mode, with all driving aids off (in all sims), there should
>be no way that anyone can finish in 1st place in a race. The only
>people that should manage this, are the actual drivers of F1, or
>IndyCar etc.
Why? For every top real life driver, there are probably 100 others who
could be just as good *IF* they had the same opportunities and (more
importantly) physical ability and sheer guts.
Could I be a top RL driver? Heck no. I get scared watching the F1 drivers
hurtling towards the first bend. No way I could ever be in the middle of
that pack of nuts <g> Even if I were brave enough, I may never be able to
take the G forces required - and that's if I were committed enough to put
in the many, many hours of fitness training.
But take away that fear of crashing, the hard work to get fit enough (and
also take away the fear of losing a drive through writing off too many
cars <g>) and I can be pretty damn quick.
To be honest, when it comes to *sims*, I take anything from a RL driver
with a hefty pinch of salt. Yes they (obviously <g>) have the RL
experience, but when translating RL to a computer simulation, compromises
have to be made. Currently there is no way to simulate the 'seat of the
pants' feedback that the RL drivers get. So how does a RL driver compare
a 2D screen image (with some incomplete audio input) and compare that to
his RL experience? If a RL driver is endorsing a sim, it's because he is
getting paid for it ;-)
Personally, I put far more weight on the comments of those whose opinions
I have come to trust and respect based on their actual experiences with
sims. They hold far more weight than any comment that has been bought.
Cheers,
Richard
Quoted text (28 lines)
>>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and >>then win a race. In reality you can give me a year of practice on any >>real circuit with the big boys, and there is no way I will finish in >>the top ten. >>Many people think GP2 is a great sim, but how can it be considered a >>real sim, when average Joes can come in first place. >A whole day setting up your car in F1RS would be the equivalent of >weeks of testing in real F1. How quick can you change your setup? >How quick can you restart a parctice session after trashing your car? >How easy is it to change every possible setting? A couple of mins at >the most. Maybe you should 30mins while they re-do your gearbox >instead? >>My point is, I think people are taking this "simulation" thing a bit >>too far. >>As far as the degree of realism, the only people I will listen to are >>the real F1/Cart drivers. If Jacques Vellinuve and John Alesi say >>it's a great simulation and very accurate, then I have to believe them >>as opposed to someone who has been racing F1 sims all their lives. I >>figure the real drivers have more first hand knowledge. >If it was a real sim, 99% of people would give up on it after a day. >Do you have any idea how hard it is to drive an F1 car? >Now if they built a perfect karting simulation, that would be fun... >But a true F1 sim would leave most of us annoyed and frustrated. >Ubisoft have to tread that thin line that runs between true realism, >and home entertainment.>But take away that fear of crashing, the hard work to get fit enough (and
>also take away the fear of losing a drive through writing off too many
>cars <g>) and I can be pretty damn quick.
A driving license would probably be quite handy as well ;-)
Likewise, although it depends upon the circumstances. I've heard many
of the NASCAR drivers say that they quite often play NASCAR2 or use
NROS, although I haven't heard specific comments regarding how it
compares to real-life. That sort of unsolicited comment I would pay
more attention to than the one on the back of the box which says
"Driver _____ says our sim is the dog's bollocks". If Pepsi paid me
five dollars to say their drink was better than a Crozes Hermitage I'd
take the money and run.
Regardless of the advertising, in the end you are judged against your
competitors and by your customers, and for that sort of judgement the
best people are those who have spent a lot of time with the competing
products. If they happen to have RL experience as well then that's
some icing to go on the cake, but not too many sim-racers have aspired
to race anything like what is being simulated.
Cheers!
John
On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:14:57 +0100, "The Unexplained"
>F-1 drivers are coming from Karts first, some not, and have come a LONG way
>to be an F-1 driver. Do you really belief that you can by-pass that
>experience by driving a sim?
I too started driving karts when I was youg, very succesfully I might
add, as did thousands of other people - a select few of those make it
to Formula One. The majority of those who fell by the wayside did so
not through lack of talent but through lack of money, luck or
determination. Still more do not have even the opportunity to race
karts at all. Have you ever stopped to consider what might have
happened if Michael Schumacher's parents didn't own a kart track, or
if Ayrton Senna's parents had been less wealthy? Perhaps then Michael
Schumacher might be your bus driver or Ayrton Senna your accountant?
Lack of opportunity does not equate to lack of talent, and for all you
know you MIGHT be a better driver than Jean Alesi. I know I've never
run out of fuel for a start.
When sims first started there was no detailed setup, no rain, no tyres
to conserve, no human opponents - a plethora of things missing. Year
on year these have been included, and any sim-racer you ask would
dearly love to have all of those features implemented, but we have to
accept what is possible with the hardware available to us. What I will
say is that as new sims are releleased you will find the same
sim-racers being quick, astonishingly quick - perhaps exhibiting the
same sort of dedication, understanding and talent that carried Senna
and Schumacher to the heady heights they acheived.
As each new feature is added the same people are well equipped to take
it on board, analyse it and adapt to it, incorporating it smoothly
into their existing arsenal of knowledge and talent. Let's face it,
coping with the elements is just exactly what you do when you drive
along an icy road to work every day, or when the motorway driving
forces you to clear your windscreen every two seconds - it's nothing
insurmountable. What defines a fast driver is not how often he pulls a
rip-off but how he communicates with the car and then applies,
interprets and adapts to the changing forces. That is well modelled in
sim-racing and the same fundamentals apply in real life.
Would it surprise you to hear that the best sim-racers I know are also
among the best kart racers I know? Racing a car isn't such a
specialised activity as you are making out, and it can be distilled
down to fundamental abilities such as spatial awareness, hand-eye
co-ordination, rapid assesment of and reaction to situations,
psychological awareness - the same skills as you use when racing a
sim. The skills you use to drive a sim are not your "driving a sim"
skills, they are a very large subset of exactly the same skills you
use to race a real car, and enhacing your sim-racing skills will
naturally enhance the skills of racing a real-car.
Cheers!
John
> >>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and
> >>then win a race. <SNIP>
> Well........ this is true for the save-time point, but an F-1 driver >can in fact FEEL what the car does. Something we can not. <SNIP>
> For starts, do you sit there all soaked and wet when after 53 laps of > Monza,you cross the finish-line? I don't think so?
> Do you feel the pressure of the brake-pedal when you hit it? Even >Force Feedback can't do this. Do you feel G-Forces when taking a > corner? Nope. When you hit the barriers, are you dizzy? Blacked out?
>What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features >turned of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil >and dirt. There's no wind influence. We do have rain these days, but it >still isn't the huge amount of spray I expected.
<SNIP>
Well the force-feedback wheels will help some... but maybe there is a
market for more!
Now let's see.... some type of 'Boxing glove on a spring mechanism'
could simulate an accident WHAM! "Damn, I knew I was braking too late
for that corner...." OR "OK, Last race. All I have to do is pull off
this pass on Schumacher and I'm the F1 Sim CHAMP!!!....." WHAM!!!!
And with a couple of pressurized lines on each side of the monitor. One
could spray hot oil while the other would be for water (To make it even
more sophisticated the water could be hot or cold to simulate rain
and/or engine coolant) "Damnit Damon, another engine let go? ....And
right in front of ME!"
These would have the added benefit of requiring the sim-racer to wear a
helmet or risk serious head injury or oil in the eyes!
And I haven't even thought about pit fires yet! "Fire, Fire, Fire"
Beavis
;o)))
Alan
http://www.kiva.net/~akh/simshop.html
> A whole day setting up your car in F1RS would be the equivalent of
> weeks of testing in real F1. How quick can you change your setup?
> How quick can you restart a parctice session after trashing your car?
> How easy is it to change every possible setting? A couple of mins at
> the most. Maybe you should 30mins while they re-do your gearbox
> instead?
Gooday Nathan! Haven't we bumped into each other before somewhere?
:) Good points btw. Also, a sim racer can do things and experiment with
driving styles that no real driver in his right mind would ever attempt.
Sim drivers should most definately be able to go quicker than real life
times!
I think none of us will ever know how realistic a sim is. If it has
the feel and speed and as many of the features of real racing than
that's all we can expect. I actually think that driving a real F1 car
may be easier than some of the sims about the place. You would get a far
greater feel from the G's and the feedback from the wheel.
Unfortunately, you would also get dramatically greater feedback from the
walls and other cars/drivers :))
Quoted text (43 lines)
> >>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and > >>then win a race. In reality you can give me a year of practice on any > >>real circuit with the big boys, and there is no way I will finish in > >>the top ten. > >>Many people think GP2 is a great sim, but how can it be considered a > >>real sim, when average Joes can come in first place. > >A whole day setting up your car in F1RS would be the equivalent of > >weeks of testing in real F1. How quick can you change your setup? > >How quick can you restart a parctice session after trashing your car? > >How easy is it to change every possible setting? A couple of mins at > >the most. Maybe you should 30mins while they re-do your gearbox > >instead? > >>My point is, I think people are taking this "simulation" thing a bit > >>too far. > >>As far as the degree of realism, the only people I will listen to are > >>the real F1/Cart drivers. If Jacques Vellinuve and John Alesi say > >>it's a great simulation and very accurate, then I have to believe them > >>as opposed to someone who has been racing F1 sims all their lives. I > >>figure the real drivers have more first hand knowledge. > >If it was a real sim, 99% of people would give up on it after a day. > >Do you have any idea how hard it is to drive an F1 car? > >Now if they built a perfect karting simulation, that would be fun... > >But a true F1 sim would leave most of us annoyed and frustrated. > >Ubisoft have to tread that thin line that runs between true realism, > >and home entertainment. > Exactly. Im not saying that driving F1 was easy. That was my point. > I was just pointing out how some people harp on a certain aspect of a > sim because it isnt realistic, while in truth all sims are'nt > realistic in the fact that it is too easy (when compared to actual F1 > driving for example). > I think UBISoft gave us a nice balance of realism and gameplay. They > made some nice options that cater to many different driving skills. > In my books, I consider this game of the year. > Marc. > -------- > To replay via e-mail, remove ".spam" from the end > my e-mail address (Tyring to avoid junk mail)> Lack of opportunity does not equate to lack of talent, and for all you
> know you MIGHT be a better driver than Jean Alesi. I know I've never
> run out of fuel for a start.
LOL!
What we need is a big boxing glove thingo that smashs us in the face
when we hit the walls/cars/trees..etc. A nice addition to force feedback
don't you think. Or maybe just hire a local thug for a few hours. Talk
about incentive!
Yes, and lets not forget that Jacques attributed a few of his wins
to practice with GP2.
Quoted text (33 lines)
> > >>How can someone come in and practice for a few week or months, and > > >>then win a race. > <SNIP> > > Well........ this is true for the save-time point, but an F-1 driver >can in fact FEEL what the car does. Something we can not. > <SNIP> > > For starts, do you sit there all soaked and wet when after 53 laps of > Monza,you cross the finish-line? I don't think so? > > Do you feel the pressure of the brake-pedal when you hit it? Even >Force Feedback can't do this. Do you feel G-Forces when taking a > corner? Nope. When you hit the barriers, are you dizzy? Blacked out? > >What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features >turned of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil >and dirt. There's no wind influence. We do have rain these days, but it >still isn't the huge amount of spray I expected. > <SNIP> > Well the force-feedback wheels will help some... but maybe there is a > market for more! > Now let's see.... some type of 'Boxing glove on a spring mechanism' > could simulate an accident WHAM! "Damn, I knew I was braking too late > for that corner...." OR "OK, Last race. All I have to do is pull off > this pass on Schumacher and I'm the F1 Sim CHAMP!!!....." WHAM!!!! > And with a couple of pressurized lines on each side of the monitor. One > could spray hot oil while the other would be for water (To make it even > more sophisticated the water could be hot or cold to simulate rain > and/or engine coolant) "Damnit Damon, another engine let go? ....And > right in front of ME!" > These would have the added benefit of requiring the sim-racer to wear a > helmet or risk serious head injury or oil in the eyes! > And I haven't even thought about pit fires yet! "Fire, Fire, Fire" > Beavis > ;o))) > Alan > http://www.kiva.net/~akh/simshop.htmlQuoted text (40 lines)
> >In expert mode, with all driving aids off (in all sims), there should > >be no way that anyone can finish in 1st place in a race. The only > >people that should manage this, are the actual drivers of F1, or > >IndyCar etc. > Why? For every top real life driver, there are probably 100 others who > could be just as good *IF* they had the same opportunities and (more > importantly) physical ability and sheer guts. > Could I be a top RL driver? Heck no. I get scared watching the F1 drivers > hurtling towards the first bend. No way I could ever be in the middle of > that pack of nuts <g> Even if I were brave enough, I may never be able to > take the G forces required - and that's if I were committed enough to put > in the many, many hours of fitness training. > But take away that fear of crashing, the hard work to get fit enough (and > also take away the fear of losing a drive through writing off too many > cars <g>) and I can be pretty damn quick. > >As far as the degree of realism, the only people I will listen to are > >the real F1/Cart drivers. If Jacques Vellinuve and John Alesi say > >it's a great simulation and very accurate, then I have to believe them > >as opposed to someone who has been racing F1 sims all their lives. I > >figure the real drivers have more first hand knowledge. > To be honest, when it comes to *sims*, I take anything from a RL driver > with a hefty pinch of salt. Yes they (obviously <g>) have the RL > experience, but when translating RL to a computer simulation, compromises > have to be made. Currently there is no way to simulate the 'seat of the > pants' feedback that the RL drivers get. So how does a RL driver compare > a 2D screen image (with some incomplete audio input) and compare that to > his RL experience? If a RL driver is endorsing a sim, it's because he is > getting paid for it ;-) > Personally, I put far more weight on the comments of those whose opinions > I have come to trust and respect based on their actual experiences with > sims. They hold far more weight than any comment that has been bought. > Cheers, > Richard> I remember Mika Hakkinen say:"In heavy rain,
> you drive by watching the light in front of you, you can't even see the
> sides of the track." upon which the interviewer asked:"And the leader?"
> Mika:"I guess he's guessing."
LOL :o), have to love that flying Fin :o).
/Christer, just enjoying the discussion :o)
Yeah, what he said!
Very well put, John, I'm actually impressed, which is rare nowadays :o). I of
course agree in every way.
/Christer Andersson
Quoted text (63 lines)
> On Mon, 5 Jan 1998 11:14:57 +0100, "The Unexplained" > >F-1 drivers are coming from Karts first, some not, and have come a LONG way > >to be an F-1 driver. Do you really belief that you can by-pass that > >experience by driving a sim? > I too started driving karts when I was youg, very succesfully I might > add, as did thousands of other people - a select few of those make it > to Formula One. The majority of those who fell by the wayside did so > not through lack of talent but through lack of money, luck or > determination. Still more do not have even the opportunity to race > karts at all. Have you ever stopped to consider what might have > happened if Michael Schumacher's parents didn't own a kart track, or > if Ayrton Senna's parents had been less wealthy? Perhaps then Michael > Schumacher might be your bus driver or Ayrton Senna your accountant? > Lack of opportunity does not equate to lack of talent, and for all you > know you MIGHT be a better driver than Jean Alesi. I know I've never > run out of fuel for a start. > >What you get in ANY simulation, is a reality with MULTIPLE features turned > >of. For starters, your helmet doesn't get all smeared with oil and dirt. > >There's no wind influence. > When sims first started there was no detailed setup, no rain, no tyres > to conserve, no human opponents - a plethora of things missing. Year > on year these have been included, and any sim-racer you ask would > dearly love to have all of those features implemented, but we have to > accept what is possible with the hardware available to us. What I will > say is that as new sims are releleased you will find the same > sim-racers being quick, astonishingly quick - perhaps exhibiting the > same sort of dedication, understanding and talent that carried Senna > and Schumacher to the heady heights they acheived. > As each new feature is added the same people are well equipped to take > it on board, analyse it and adapt to it, incorporating it smoothly > into their existing arsenal of knowledge and talent. Let's face it, > coping with the elements is just exactly what you do when you drive > along an icy road to work every day, or when the motorway driving > forces you to clear your windscreen every two seconds - it's nothing > insurmountable. What defines a fast driver is not how often he pulls a > rip-off but how he communicates with the car and then applies, > interprets and adapts to the changing forces. That is well modelled in > sim-racing and the same fundamentals apply in real life. > >Many people just don't understand that a sim might approach the behaviour of > >a car, but never will BE the car. When I see myself edging a pole on a > >track, I really don't see myself getting this done in real life. > Would it surprise you to hear that the best sim-racers I know are also > among the best kart racers I know? Racing a car isn't such a > specialised activity as you are making out, and it can be distilled > down to fundamental abilities such as spatial awareness, hand-eye > co-ordination, rapid assesment of and reaction to situations, > psychological awareness - the same skills as you use when racing a > sim. The skills you use to drive a sim are not your "driving a sim" > skills, they are a very large subset of exactly the same skills you > use to race a real car, and enhacing your sim-racing skills will > naturally enhance the skills of racing a real-car. > Cheers! > JohnChrister Andersson heeft geschreven in bericht
>Yeah, what he said!
>Very well put, John, I'm actually impressed, which is rare nowadays :o). I of
And Pedro Diniz falls in category? No luck, no determination, no talent.....
got to be... you guesed it right.
All true, but is the majority of F1-sim users a former or present
kart-driver? I think not.
Have you also been able to keep an F-1 car under control in heavy rain? But
you are taking presumably you yourself as an example, which when talking
about USERS of F1-sims, a general public with an interest in F!-driving,
those people are not all people who have driven a kart succesfully. Heck,
I've never even seen one in real life. Yet, I edge poles on many circuits.
THAT is my point in saying that any sim turns of a quadruplex amount of tiny
or larger features, factors that have an influence on what is simulated in
real life.
F-1 has never seen more than I belief 38 drivers in one season (excluding in
season replacements). This means, a microscopical tiny amount of Human
population DOES make it to F-1. Does this not imply that these selected few
have very special talents, not just A talent, but gifted talents, a
dedication that is all encompasing as far as F-1 is concerned? Remember
Senna:"Racing, competing, is a way of life. It's in my ***." THAT is what
defines a real F-1 driver.
I've never fully understood setups, never, but I did win a championship
level 3 in GP-2 with 16 wins and 14 Pole Positions. I only used the ideal
track feature. Around that time, I'd never driven a car for a long amount of
time. I had my driver's license, but busses and a bicycle did it for me well
enough. Still, I clinched win after win.
Yesterday I did a single race Monza, Pro-level and with anti-spin and skid
on. I win. Granted, these 2 aids are a great help. But come on, seeing
1:20:XXX times on Monza, where as the real Pole is 1:24:XXX...
True perhaps, but I don't sit in my seat after 63 laps, drenched in sweat.
You may be able to know where to brake ideally, what setup is best, but a
Schumacher won Monaco this year with SO much insight into the weather,
something that can NEVER be in a sim. Therefore, I really doubt the
statement, that a good F-1 sim driver is as talented as a real F-1 driver.
I can see that adjusting dampers to a bumpy circuit works in sim and real
life. But there are just so many aspects NOT in a sim, that make REAL F-1
drivers so much more special. The ability to totally devote 200% attention
to just under 2 hours of driving a car at 330+ speeds over a circuit. When
they blast away at the start, they need to maneuver their car past others
and fend of those behind them. In a sim, the aspect of danger is
non-existent. I once simulated Senna's Imola crash. I live, he died. Real
F-1 drivers are technically perhaps equal to sim-drivers, but beyond that,
they are the chosen few.
Perhaps I have become a better real life driver through hours and hours of
driving a sim. In fact, I think that's a reality. But no more than that my
attention and awareness to surroundings has increased by playing Quake.
but you say it yourself:
The best F-1 sim drivers are among the best KART-drivers. Now, I can think
that's true. But KArts, with all due respect, is not F-1. KArts don't do 360
Km/H in a straight line, don't exercise 5G in a turn, don't come from 350 to
60 in 2 seconds, causing your eyes to water due to the G-forces. THAt is why
I don't beleive a Sim driver can match or be as talented as a real F-1
driver. Basics are the same, beyond that, MUCH more different then we can
think.
If what you say is true, how come Gerhard Berger won Hockenheim, yet
qualified 18th on the A1-ring? I bet, and experience proves me right, that
when I acheive a certain level of driving, no matter which circuit in a sim
it is, I will acheive that level time and time again. I do laps 1:24:XXX on
Monza, no sweat. I can do in a ghost 50 laps 1:24:XXX on Monza.
The very fact, it's NOT always Villeneuve of Schumacher who takes Pole or
Wins means there's a bunch of factors next to where to brake, where to
shift, setup and such that play a role.
And these factors are what real F-1 drivers also have to work with.
"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
[link lost in import]
[link lost in import]
Quoted text (12 lines)
>course agree in every way. >/Christer Andersson >> I too started driving karts when I was youg, very succesfully I might >> add, as did thousands of other people - a select few of those make it >> to Formula One. The majority of those who fell by the wayside did so >> not through lack of talent but through lack of money, luck or >> determination.< SNIP >
A prime example of this can be found in the Ubisoft interview on
Operation 3Dfx (www.op3dfx.com). They mentioned that Jacques
Villeneuve drove the sim and immediately started kicking some serious
ass on the Montreal course.
Rob
"Dead Meat"
>The AI seem to be ok and dont hit each other when there is no human
>involved in the race, ie you start a race, pull off and watch them enter
>the corner. But if you (the human) are involved they seem hell bent on
>hitting you, as if they dont even know you are there.
Sorry, but I don't see that. In fact I always was and still am very
impressed by how the other drivers handle those situations. They seem
very competitive trying to get past you, but unlike you said, they
don't "try" to hit you, but try to find a way around you. Naturally,
if they are coming from behind at full speed and you cut them off just
before a turn, it is obvious crashes can happen. They are still not
super humans. ;-)
This seemed to be a problem in Psygnosis F1 and CPR, but I don't see
it in F1RS, I play it at expert level with full realism.
I just tried the first chicane of Melbourne several times, and if
crashes happened, they were caused by me, usually I hit the driver in
front of me due to speed. Except that once two computer drivers
crashed with each other behind me without my involvement. Seems very
believable to me.
>In expert mode, with all driving aids off (in all sims), there should
>be no way that anyone can finish in 1st place in a race. The only
>people that should manage this, are the actual drivers of F1, or
>IndyCar etc.
Several other arguements have been presented but I think that one
crucial one has been ignored. In a simulation I can drive in a manner
that will cause me to crash and die a significant percentage of the
time with no adverse consequences. This allows a sim enthusiast to
show significantly better performance than can be achieved in
reallity.
Just mine too
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:44:55 +0100, "The Unexplained"
>Yesterday I did a single race Monza, Pro-level and with anti-spin and skid
>on. I win. Granted, these 2 aids are a great help. But come on, seeing
>1:20:XXX times on Monza, where as the real Pole is 1:24:XXX...
Anti-spin and anti-skid. Nothing more to say really.
Did you realise that there is no traction control in F1?
Of course you're going to be 4 seconds faster! Any F1 driver with
those options on his real F! car will be 4 secs faster as well!
<snip>
You're not trying hard enough!
You're not leaning far enough!
There you've got me. That only happens to me with Doom and other "VR" games.
a
<snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip><snip>
Tony Whitley
(that's it. no ten line tag for me, thanks)
Try it WITHOUT those aids on, and in Expert level.
Then come back and tell us how much faster than the AI you were!!! :-)
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
For years we have had flight-combat sims where we "die", or are
"injured" or are "captured". In other words, situations thrown at us
where we not only may fail to accomplish mission objectives but where we
can suffer in other ways as well.
I would really like to see a racing simulation follow similar lines for
once.
I don't mean that we should be faced with "death" but consider this:-
What about if there were (for example) three levels of "injury". Let's
assume that we are in the first day's practice session, our car spins
off and we suffer mild concussion. The game then "sends us to hospital
for examination" and we are forced to miss the rest of that day's
activities. We are cleared to resume on the following day but have lost
a days practise or qualifying or, if it's in the actual race, we have
not scored any points.
Classify this example as "minor injuries".
The next level would be where we may break a leg, arm, whatever.
Obviously in real life we are not going to be climbing back behind the
wheel that same race weekend, or even for a couple of weeks, so the game
closes us out of competition for a month and we miss two race meetings.
This example could be called "serious injuries".
The final situation is where we are so badly bashed about (call it
"critical injuries") that we cannot compete for three months. In an F1
simulation we may miss maybe seven or eight meetings, severely affecting
our points for the season. In a NASCAR or CART sim it would also knock
us about quite heavily. But we still survive and have a chance to come
back that season if the accident occurs early, or we have to start a new
season.
To me, such a feature would add a little bit of spice to a Championship
season in any of the racing sims currently being produced.
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
(snip)
very accurate, then I have to believe them as opposed to someone who has
been racing F1 sims all their lives. Ifigure the real drivers have more
first hand knowledge.
(unsnip)
Who really gives a toss as to whether JV or JA or JB or JC consider a
"game" to be accurate? It's not what they think that should
matter....it's what *YOU* think!
If *YOU* don't like the game after trying it, because of your personal
reasons, fine. But if you are not prepared to try it in the first place
because Jean Alesi hasn't endorsed it......Jesus!!
Do you go through life only experiencing those things that those in the
public eye have given the seal of approval to?!!!!!!
--
Bruce
(at work)
"Laziness is nothing more than the habit of resting before you get
tired."
(Jules Renard)
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:44:55 +0100, "The Unexplained"
(lots deleted)
Amen.
Marc.
--------
To replay via e-mail, remove ".spam" from the end
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Quoted text (23 lines)
>< SNIP > >>> Would it surprise you to hear that the best sim-racers I know are also >>> among the best kart racers I know? Racing a car isn't such a >>> specialised activity as you are making out, and it can be distilled >>> down to fundamental abilities such as spatial awareness, hand-eye >>> co-ordination, rapid assesment of and reaction to situations, >>> psychological awareness - the same skills as you use when racing a >>> sim. The skills you use to drive a sim are not your "driving a sim" >>> skills, they are a very large subset of exactly the same skills you >>> use to race a real car, and enhacing your sim-racing skills will >>> naturally enhance the skills of racing a real-car. >>> Cheers! >>> John >A prime example of this can be found in the Ubisoft interview on >Operation 3Dfx (www.op3dfx.com). They mentioned that Jacques >Villeneuve drove the sim and immediately started kicking some serious >ass on the Montreal course. >Rob >"Dead Meat"Quoted text (9 lines)
>Several other arguements have been presented but I think that one >crucial one has been ignored. In a simulation I can drive in a manner >that will cause me to crash and die a significant percentage of the >time with no adverse consequences. This allows a sim enthusiast to >show significantly better performance than can be achieved in >reallity. >>Just my opinion, >Just mine tooOn Wed, 07 Jan 1998 13:29:02 +1100, Bruce Kennewell
If you read my original post, I didnt mention that I liked the sim
because JV and JA said it was accurate. You are assuming that is why
I liked it. I loved the demo months back before I even knew about
Renaults help with the game, and any F1 drivers impression of it.
My original point was that I didnt understand how people can harp on a
sim that appears to be pretty "accurate", because of thier perception
of how an F1 car drives (for example) without the practical
experience. And that real F1 drivers (professional or otherwise) can
have a IMO more credible viewpoint.
To me the game seems pretty accurate (with my limited knowledge and no
F1 driving experience), and that is what made it fun for me - along
with the immersion of being there.
Although I do agree with what you said, you're getting all freaked out
at me due to your assumptions and inability to follow a thread. Do
you argue with yourself for enjoyment also. Learn to read follow a
thread properly.
Marc.
--------
To replay via e-mail, remove ".spam" from the end
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Quoted text (17 lines)
>(snip) >> >>If Jacques Vellinuve and John Alesi say it's a great simulation and >very accurate, then I have to believe them as opposed to someone who has >been racing F1 sims all their lives. Ifigure the real drivers have more >first hand knowledge. >(unsnip) >Who really gives a toss as to whether JV or JA or JB or JC consider a >"game" to be accurate? It's not what they think that should >matter....it's what *YOU* think! >If *YOU* don't like the game after trying it, because of your personal >reasons, fine. But if you are not prepared to try it in the first place >because Jean Alesi hasn't endorsed it......Jesus!! >Do you go through life only experiencing those things that those in the >public eye have given the seal of approval to?!!!!!!Bruce Kennewell heeft geschreven in bericht
The 1:20:XXX are not MY times but those of others driving without aid. I
only get the 1:26:XXX without any aids on. No matter how hard I try, that's
what I can acheive driving "For real".
The 1:20:XXX are the super-times of www.f1racingsim.com
"On 5 August 1944 in the vicinity of St. Sever Calvados, France, witnessed a
German Mark V Panther tank knock out three M4 and three M5 tanks during and
after being hit by at least fif*** rounds of 75mm APC from a distance of
approximately 700 yards. All of these shells had ricochetted, with the
exception of a six***th round which finally put the Mark V Panther out of
action." Sgt. Thomas P. Welborn, Germany's Panther tank, the quest for
combat superiority by Thomas L. Jentz
[link lost in import]
[link lost in import]
On Tue, 6 Jan 1998 20:44:55 +0100, "The Unexplained"
Er, the mere fact that Pedro Diniz is _in_ F1 shows you that he did
not fall by the wayside. So your point was...?
Where did I say that they were? The point I was making is that if you
look at people who are very good at racing sims, those who have had
the opportunity to race other things have done so with corresponding
levels of success.
I've never had the opportunity, which does not mean that I couldn't do
it.
No, what defines a "real F1 driver" is the fact that he is racing in
Formula One. Let's suppose I won the lottery tomorrow, strolled along
to Tyrrell or whatever and offered them $10,000,000 to let me race
that season - am I now a "real F1 driver"? I'm racing the car, I'm in
F1, but that makes no statement whatsoever about my talent, I'm still
the same guy I was before. You are confusing experience with talent,
and the two are not the same thing at all.
That is a problem with how accurately Ubisoft have modelled Monza, not
with how well or badly you are driving the sim. There are other
sim-racers almost into the 1:16 level around Monaco, so what we can
conclude is that you are FOUR seconds off the pace of the top
sim-racers. You can't make any comparison with the F1 guys, except to
imagine how you would think of Frentzen if he qualified four seconds
behind Villeneuve with exactly the same car.
Why can that never be in a sim? F1RS already has changing weather,
NROS already allows people to race together on the same track - the
potential is already there to put those together into an on-line F1
sim where perhaps your interpretation of the changing weather
conditions would be the decisive factor in a race win. As for the
"drenched in sweat", that is from the physical effort and terrible
conditions in an F1 car. If I were to put your PC into a sauna, sit
you in a tight-fitting bathtub and shake it constantly, you'd probably
be sweating. :)
This is where I _very_ strongly disagree with you. You are saying that
an F1 driver is more talented than a sim-driver, but this statement is
totally wrong. An F1 driver is _better_at_driving_an_F1_car_ but this
does NOT mean that he is more talented - simply that he has the
opportunity and therefore more experience. I am better at driving F1RS
than Michael Schumacher is - does this mean I have more talent than
him? No, it means I have more experience than him.
Have you ever stopped to wonder why the UK has produced more F1 World
Champions than any other country? I'll tell you, it's because the UK
has had a very long history of motorsport with many more possibilities
for young people to participate. The more people you have, the woder
the pool of talent. The wider the pool of talent, the more likely it
is that you will find those few people who have the particular
combination of skills that are required for driving an F1 car.
The law of averages says that China should have produced an F1 World
Champion by now, but they haven't. By your reasoning we must conclude
that there simply aren't any drivers in China that were "so much more
special". Actually it is lack of opportunity to race, pure and simple.
If you can imagine that a sim were created that did accurately mirror
_everything_ about driving an F1 car, I am 100% sure that you would
find sim-racers who could drive the car on a level equivalent with
todays F1 drivers.
So what are you saying, that your sim should give you a 220V electric
shock when you crash? I fail to see how your comment relates to
whether or not an F1 driver has more talent or potential than someone
racing a sim.
The best F1 drivers also started in karts - Mansell, Senna,
Schumacher, Villeneuve. Where is the difference? At that time they
could only drive karts and if you put them into an F1 car they would
have been awful. Through experience they learned to drive more
powerful cars and eventually to F1 - there's nothing at all to say
that you couldn't or I couldn't.
Because his driving style and the car he had suited Hockenheim far
better than the A1-Ring. The Benetton has always gone well at
Hockenheim (remember his race in '95 too) since the power of the
Renault can make up for the other deficiencies of the Benetton
compared to Ferrari, Williams etc. Look how well Jordan also ran at
that circuit, before falling away on the tracks where power is not the
be all and end all.
If you look at Berger's times at Hockenheim you will find he also
achieved the same level time and time again, lap after lap. That is
consistency.
The bottom line is that you can only say that a sim-driver has less
driving talent than Schumacher if you give him/her the same experience
as Michael has had and the same opportunities. When Jacques Villeneuve
arrived at Williams he was soundly beaten by Damon Hill in the first
half of the season - no-one judged him because "he didn't have the
same experience of Williams, F1 cars or F1 circuits as Damon". If you
can allow Villeneuve time to develop suitable experience before
judging him, why do you not give me or other sim racers the same
courtesy? If you compare like with like, my record in kart racing was
much better than Villeneuve's. Considering that, could I conclude that
I was a more talented driver than Villeneuve at that point in my life?
If I was, you don't know that I couldn't go on to drive a Williams
better than him.
Of course sims cannot ever hope to encompass everything about the
sport they are simulating, that much I certainly agree with. I cannot
agree that because a sim-racer is not driving an F1 car he has less
potential talent than someone who is - that is a conclusion that you
do not have enough facts to make.
Cheers!
John
Quoted text (8 lines)
>>> I too started driving karts when I was youg, very succesfully I might >>> add, as did thousands of other people - a select few of those make it >>> to Formula One. The majority of those who fell by the wayside did so >>> not through lack of talent but through lack of money, luck or >>> determination. >And Pedro Diniz falls in category? No luck, no determination, no talent..... >got to be... you guesed it right.On Wed, 7 Jan 1998 10:44:20 +0100, "The Unexplained"
>The 1:20:XXX are not MY times but those of others driving without aid. I
>only get the 1:26:XXX without any aids on. No matter how hard I try, that's
>what I can acheive driving "For real".
>The 1:20:XXX are the super-times of www.f1racingsim.com
I've seen times of 1:17.xxx over on CompuServe (no driving aids) with
some people almost reaching 1:16.xxx. Looks like you and I need to
practice! :)
Cheers!
