>Could someone explain this to me? Why is there no track editor for ICR2
>and/or N2? I love those games but it would be great if we were able to
>design our own tracks! If they did one for SODA, why aren't they doing
>one for ICR2/N2?
Excelent question - Nascar2 would be the ultimate racer (especially
with the upcoming 3dfx patch) if it had a track editor. As it is it's
still a great game, but replayability is inevitably limited by the
limited number of tracks.
Joe
>>Could someone explain this to me? Why is there no track editor for ICR2
>>and/or N2? I love those games but it would be great if we were able to
>>design our own tracks! If they did one for SODA, why aren't they doing
>>one for ICR2/N2?
It's no fun if people out there trying to make a wreck track
>Could someone explain this to me? Why is there no track editor for ICR2
>and/or N2? I love those games but it would be great if we were able to
>design our own tracks! If they did one for SODA, why aren't they doing
>one for ICR2/N2?
Three reasons primarily, the latter of more import than the former two
I suspect. Licensing, online racing and time.
First of all the tracks are licensed, that in itself brings
complications. Secondly the on-line racing complicates things. Suppose
I make a wonderful track, people may well want it to be introduced on
NROS or supported by Papy - that could be a problem since Papy didn't
create the track and can't vouch for it's quality, and also I may have
copied Brands Hatch and leave them wide open to being sued.
Mainly though, I think it's time. I worked extensively with Gerhard
Lingenberg and Doug Arnao in making the original conversions of the
NASCAR2 tracks to ICR2, and vice-versa, as well as with The Sim
Project at the moment - believe me, Papy's system is _very_
complicated, not at all like that used by MS (CPR), Psygnosis (F1) or
Software Allied (SODA). SODA has a track editor, CPR will get a track
editor, and F1 could easily have had a track editor had there been any
interest at all :) ICR2 and N2 are not at all like that, and creating
tracks from scratch is very difficult indeed. I suspect that Papyrus
simply don't have the staff or the time to do it. If it was necessary
to market the game I'm sure they would, but NASCAR2 and ICR2 seemed to
sell very well on their own merits (driving and AI) without having to
resort to packaged extras to attract the punters.
Just my thoughts, other opinions welcome.
Cheers!
John
> Can I hope to see a track editor from Papy one day, or should I stop
> dreaming right now?
> J-F Giguere
You may as well stop dreaming, Papy has stated repeatedly that they wont
release a track editor for either sim because of the complex nature of
the thing, too much opportunity to***everything up and then *** to
them about it.
Soda wasnt written by Papyrus to start with and SODA tracks are much
smaller and less detailed that ICR or Nascar tracks, therefor much
easier to do an editor for.
Trev
They probably didnt release an editor because the wanted to do the BGN pack.
If you release the editor everyone will make those tracks and Papy won't get
the cash. The editor might also be on a non-PC platform which would make it
hard to release. The above is only speculation and not based on any
firsthand knowledge or facts.
Thanks
John
Quoted text (13 lines)
> >>Could someone explain this to me? Why is there no track editor for ICR2 >>and/or N2? I love those games but it would be great if we were able to >>design our own tracks! If they did one for SODA, why aren't they doing >>one for ICR2/N2? > >Excelent question - Nascar2 would be the ultimate racer (especially >with the upcoming 3dfx patch) if it had a track editor. As it is it's >still a great game, but replayability is inevitably limited by the >limited number of tracks. > >Joe >% Could someone explain this to me? Why is there no track editor for ICR2
% and/or N2? I love those games but it would be great if we were able to
% design our own tracks! If they did one for SODA, why aren't they doing
% one for ICR2/N2?
% Can I hope to see a track editor from Papy one day, or should I stop
% dreaming right now?
% -------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Since you posted from Deja News, a simple search of the archives in
rec.autos.simulators would have turned up the following:
(BTW: Ah the good ole days before Rick left Papyrus. The 2 employees
at Papyrus who knew how to deal with the heat in the kitchen, Jim &
Rick, left for those other pastures.)
Subject: Re: What about a track editor? Read it Rick Genter please.
Date: 1995/12/02
Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
If only there was a track editor we could also race at Miami and Indy
500.
<<<
(Yes, I'm back.)
I've mentioned this before, but it keeps coming back. There is no single
"track editor" for our games. It is a set of very complicated, not very
well integrated tools that takes an experienced 3D smith a month or more
(40 hours a week? hah!) to put a track together. And then you still end up
with drawing order hassles. No, it won't happen, at least not with our
current 3D engine.
Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.
Subject: Re: Question for Mr. Genter
Date: 1996/01/17
Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
<snip>
Also, is it possible to create a track editor, where we can create our
own tracks for ICR2?
<<<
There are no plans to produce the Homestead track at this time. There is
also no plan to produce a track editor; there is no single track editor
that we use, rather we use a number of in-house tools to produce a
track. The tools are far from production quality and it is not worth it
to us to make them production quality for the limited market they would
have. (Unless, of course, you'd be willing to spend $250,000 to buy
them?)
Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.
Subject: Re: Jed I'm curious
Date: 1996/02/19
Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
: I wrote and e-mail to Rick G about the marketing possibilities of
: supplying extra tracks, even made up ones to the market.
There is no money in selling extra tracks. The Nascar Track probably
cost more to produce than it brought in.
: Like I said, forget licensing and work on new tracks or a 'usable'
: track editor. If you don't do something soon, things are going to
: start to burn out.
Rick has mentioned this many times, so I don't understand why you guys
still can't grasp it. Designing a track is not the simple task you make
it out to be. The tools used are complicated and very user-unfriendly.
Your average JoeBob Nascar fan just wouldn't be able to figure out how
to use the tools, to put it nicely.
The only alternative is to spend millions of dollars redesigning the
tools to make them intuitive. So if you folks want to scrape up a couple
of Mil, perhaps you could persude Papyrus to do this.
Mike_l
Subject: Re: ICR2 tracks at NASCAR
Date: 1996/01/22
Newsgroups: rec.autos.simulators
I wrote an e-mail message to Rick G about this a while ago but I think
I've upset him after I wrote the ICR2 demo editor! ;-)
<<<
Not at all. I'm not sure I got the e-mail you refer to; can you send it
again?
Why don't Papyrus use one common track data format and use a separate
file for lines, braking points, etc?
<<<
Because we want to keep making improvements and not be tied down to
old file formats.
And if you still have problems, ask a few Nascar and Indycar drivers
to design their own tracks!
<<<
I've been over this, but I'll say it again. We have no one tool for
creating/editing tracks. Our current tool set includes about a dozen
tools that we use to create the track.dat file, none of which are well
documented or bug free. It currently takes a 2D-artist and 3D-artist
between 4 and 8 months to create a track from scratch. With the
extremely limited market of people who would be able/willing to buy any
kind of track editing toolkit, we would have to charge far more money
than those people would be willing to pay. It isn't going to happen.
Rick Genter
Technical Lead, IndyCar Racing II
Papyrus Design Group, Inc.
**************************** Michael E. Carver *************************
Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
>One major word, "Daytona". It'll be created everywhere plus they don't =
>want people trading or posting their own creations.
Why not? There are other games with track editors - Papyrus is not
responsible (legally nor in any other way) for data people build with
their tools. As for trading and posting their own creations, that's
precisely why a track editor adds so much value to a game. Look at
Need for Speed 1 - it had a really basic editor, and it greatly
expanded the lifetime of that game.
Joe
Since Microsoft is releasing a track editor for *their* sim, this
excuse is no longer valid.
Joe
>This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>------=_NextPart_000_004B_01BD0E52.4271BFE0
>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
> boundary="----=_NextPart_001_004C_01BD0E52.4271BFE0"
Sorry, was there a *message* buried somewhere in all that HTML
formatting code you posted?
Joe
Sure it is...For example: say MS designed CPR using C on a PC, then creating
a track tool (if planned ahead) could easily be created. However, say a sim
was designed using a Silicon Graphics workstation, with no early plans to
create an editor to go with the sim once released?...Might not be imposible,
but in-house tools generally require a 4-year education to use, and don't
always port well to home systems. =P
...or ponder this: that the owners of the tracks told Papyrus NOT to plan,
include, design, or make it easy to create such an editor? I have no facts to
back this up...Just a few thoughts. =)
Cheers!
Marc
>Yup, theres messages burried in that html.
Found the message this time, still don't know what your original
response was. If you want people to read and respond to your messages,
just maybe you should think about turning off the 121 lines of HTML
garbage you are generating to hide your one-line message in.
Joe
Yeah, we know.. But when is Papyrus going to release that track editor to the
public???? <G>
JoH
Please remove *anti-spam* from the email when replying.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
When everything else failed, we can still become im-
mortal by making an enormous blunder....
John Kenneth Galbraith
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Mark F. wrote -
<< Want to learn NASCAR 2 and/or Icr2 Editing? Well, then come here!:
http://www.webstorage.com/~simgo/mypage/ >>
Yeah Mark, I'd love to, but your page won't work! All I see (IE4.01) is frames with headings & useless grey squares in the left frame. No, pressing them dosen't do squat. If you can't edit a web page it dosen't give me much confidence in your game editing ability.
cheers ;-)
