Microsoft is still around

Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about CPR and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: 1) We're working on a patch. It is totally a response to some of the comments made on r.a.s., many of which we agree with. A list of items addressed in the patch has been forwarded up to this ng, and most of them will indeed be in the patch. A couple of items may not make it. 2) The patch won't make the game perfect. But it will make it better. We think it's a pretty good game right now, and we're all jazzed at the improvements in the patched builds. 3) CPR is version 1: our competition (all games you folks love) are further along. They've had longer to work out the bugs and problems than we have. While I don't expect you to cut us any slack because of that, it might help you understand where we're at. Whenever you decide to enter a mature category, you have the daunting challenge of trying to catch up. You can either spend years developing a product, during which time your competition also matures and raises the bar you have to meet, thus sending you back to the drawing board repeatedly, or you can get something out on the street and revise it like crazy. In reality neither plan is optimal but the latter is a little more doable than the former here at MS. This doesn't mean you can ship an inferior V1 product, because you still have to compete on your own merits against the competition, but it does mean you sometimes have to stage your development process and goals into long-term milestones. 4) I've worked at MS for almost 11 years, and in all that time (working on a variety of products from C++ compilers to Excel to the Handheld PC) I've never seen any of the corporate dominators that MS is supposed to be full of. I've seen, instead, groups of really dedicated people working lots of hours to ship great products. Nobody deliberately sets out to hose your OS or munge your registry. As far as I know, CPR does none of those things. If we do bad stuff like that, we get deluged in support calls and it comes back to haunt the product group. We actually have a config lab with lots of popular and weird hardware, including beta hardware, and we have lots of dedicated testers, who try every way they can think of to break stuff. They take real pride in it. 5) Observing a bug is different from finding one and finding one is different from fixing it. Sometimes you see or hear of people who see something which is weird but no matter how hard you try you can't get it to happen again. Not much you can do with that until you can get a repro scenario. Even if you can consistently repro a bug, it doesn't mean you can fix it. It might be that the problem is in someone else's code (drivers, for example). It might be that the only fix will break something else. It might be something else. I don't believe any piece of code from any vendor in the world ever got shipped with zero bugs and ours is no different. We sweat every bug and don't take any of them lightly. 6) I hope I'm not astonishing anyone on this newsgroup when I point out that engineering is the science of tradeoffs, and that nothing comes for free. Given unlimited time, resources, and intelligence anything is possible but no one wants to wait that long <g>. So we wind up looking sometimes at hard choices. 7) I will monitor this ng and will be happy to post replies to questions as time permits. Unfortuantely (or fortunately) it's a very large and active newsgroup and sometimes the signal to noise ratio is not ideal. But I'll do what I can. 8) We didn't pay any of the CART drivers to say any of the things they said about CPR. I've never known racers who told you what they thought you wanted to hear as opposed to what they felt. If those guys think the game drives like the real thing, I think that's a pretty good endor***t. 9) If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or CPR, that's fine with me. It's a free country (or internet, as the case might be) and no one will censor this ng for controversial postings. I'd like to spend my time discussing things that are based in fact, rather than paranoia or fantasy. If you want to stoop to that, feel free, just don't expect to see me join in. -- Cheers, John Browne MS CART Team

Yes!!! THANK YOU JOHN!!! Now if everyone could just stop ***in' about "Dean said this, Alison said that, blah, blah, blah,....." It's a wonder anyone had time to go racing with all the belly-achin' going on! My $.02 worth (and I haven't even bought the product yet) >Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of >products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about CPR

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>and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: >1) We're working on a patch. It is totally a response to some of the >comments made on r.a.s., many of which we agree with. A list of items >addressed in the patch has been forwarded up to this ng, and most of them >will indeed be in the patch. A couple of items may not make it. >2) The patch won't make the game perfect. But it will make it better. We >think it's a pretty good game right now, and we're all jazzed at the >improvements in the patched builds. >3) CPR is version 1: our competition (all games you folks love) are further >along. They've had longer to work out the bugs and problems than we have. >While I don't expect you to cut us any slack because of that, it might help >you understand where we're at. Whenever you decide to enter a mature >category, you have the daunting challenge of trying to catch up. You can >either spend years developing a product, during which time your competition >also matures and raises the bar you have to meet, thus sending you back to >the drawing board repeatedly, or you can get something out on the street

and >revise it like crazy. In reality neither plan is optimal but the latter is a >little more doable than the former here at MS. This doesn't mean you can >ship an inferior V1 product, because you still have to compete on your own >merits against the competition, but it does mean you sometimes have to stage >your development process and goals into long-term milestones. >4) I've worked at MS for almost 11 years, and in all that time (working on a >variety of products from C++ compilers to Excel to the Handheld PC) I've >never seen any of the corporate dominators that MS is supposed to be full >of. I've seen, instead, groups of really dedicated people working lots of >hours to ship great products. Nobody deliberately sets out to hose your OS >or munge your registry. As far as I know, CPR does none of those things. If >we do bad stuff like that, we get deluged in support calls and it comes back

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>to haunt the product group. We actually have a config lab with lots of >popular and weird hardware, including beta hardware, and we have lots of >dedicated testers, who try every way they can think of to break stuff. They >take real pride in it. >5) Observing a bug is different from finding one and finding one is >different from fixing it. Sometimes you see or hear of people who see >something which is weird but no matter how hard you try you can't get it to >happen again. Not much you can do with that until you can get a repro >scenario. Even if you can consistently repro a bug, it doesn't mean you can >fix it. It might be that the problem is in someone else's code (drivers,

for >example). It might be that the only fix will break something else. It might >be something else. I don't believe any piece of code from any vendor in the >world ever got shipped with zero bugs and ours is no different. We sweat >every bug and don't take any of them lightly. >6) I hope I'm not astonishing anyone on this newsgroup when I point out that

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>engineering is the science of tradeoffs, and that nothing comes for free. >Given unlimited time, resources, and intelligence anything is possible but >no one wants to wait that long <g>. So we wind up looking sometimes at hard >choices. >7) I will monitor this ng and will be happy to post replies to questions as >time permits. Unfortuantely (or fortunately) it's a very large and active >newsgroup and sometimes the signal to noise ratio is not ideal. But I'll do >what I can. >8) We didn't pay any of the CART drivers to say any of the things they said >about CPR. I've never known racers who told you what they thought you

wanted >to hear as opposed to what they felt. If those guys think the game drives >like the real thing, I think that's a pretty good endor***t. >9) If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or CPR, >that's fine with me. It's a free country (or internet, as the case might be) >and no one will censor this ng for controversial postings. I'd like to spend

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>my time discussing things that are based in fact, rather than paranoia or >fantasy. If you want to stoop to that, feel free, just don't expect to see >me join in. >-- >Cheers, >John Browne >MS CART Team

Welcome, John. I am sure you are prepared to be barraged and can hold-up under the heat. Just hang-in there! I would like to say that I am very please that MS has chosen to step into the (this) fray. As much as many people like to demonise MS, I do not believe that Office97 and Windows got to where they are today without a lot of listening to consumer input. In some ways, there is still a long way to go, but, hey, you're on the right road at least. None of us can ask or expect more. If there is some company out there willing and able to do more and better, well, look out. The fact that there is not and MS still tries to incorporate a wide range of new features and improvements in every product means a lot to me. Btw, I am not an MS disciple and if you guys screw-up non-US language proofing in Word 9.0 (after messing it up in one way or another in 2.0, 6.0, 7.0 and 8.0), I'll personally blow my stack all over you. As for CART:PR. Track editor: 11/10. Patch support: 10/10 assuming it appears soon and accomplishes said goals. One point I would like to make, however (you may have read it in an earlier post), involves replacement CDs. If (that's IF) the patching process becomes cumbersome with huge downloads and time-consuming multiple patch procedures, will MS support those of us loyal customers who bought v1.0 (some of us knowing that it was a work-in-progress) by replacing or exchanging the CD-ROM with one that would enable a straightforward install. I know a lot of the hacker-types on here probably enjoy installing patches, but for the average consumer it is a pain. I really believe that if MS is willing to support loyalists and early purchasers in this way, then there can be no room for anyone here to complain. All other sims. have needed patches (I am still waiting for a GP2 patch), none other has provided one so quickly, none other has provided a free (useful) track editor, and none other has demonstrated the willingness to hang-in there and continuously (within reason) improve their product. Prevent the patching/upgrading process from being a nightmare for the average consumer and you have done far more than has been the market standard to-date. Thanks again for joining us. >Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of >products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about CPR

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>and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: >1) We're working on a patch. It is totally a response to some of the >comments made on r.a.s., many of which we agree with. A list of items >addressed in the patch has been forwarded up to this ng, and most of them >will indeed be in the patch. A couple of items may not make it. >2) The patch won't make the game perfect. But it will make it better. We >think it's a pretty good game right now, and we're all jazzed at the >improvements in the patched builds. >3) CPR is version 1: our competition (all games you folks love) are further >along. They've had longer to work out the bugs and problems than we have. >While I don't expect you to cut us any slack because of that, it might help >you understand where we're at. Whenever you decide to enter a mature >category, you have the daunting challenge of trying to catch up. You can >either spend years developing a product, during which time your competition >also matures and raises the bar you have to meet, thus sending you back to >the drawing board repeatedly, or you can get something out on the street

and >revise it like crazy. In reality neither plan is optimal but the latter is a >little more doable than the former here at MS. This doesn't mean you can >ship an inferior V1 product, because you still have to compete on your own >merits against the competition, but it does mean you sometimes have to stage >your development process and goals into long-term milestones. >4) I've worked at MS for almost 11 years, and in all that time (working on a >variety of products from C++ compilers to Excel to the Handheld PC) I've >never seen any of the corporate dominators that MS is supposed to be full >of. I've seen, instead, groups of really dedicated people working lots of >hours to ship great products. Nobody deliberately sets out to hose your OS >or munge your registry. As far as I know, CPR does none of those things. If >we do bad stuff like that, we get deluged in support calls and it comes back

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>to haunt the product group. We actually have a config lab with lots of >popular and weird hardware, including beta hardware, and we have lots of >dedicated testers, who try every way they can think of to break stuff. They >take real pride in it. >5) Observing a bug is different from finding one and finding one is >different from fixing it. Sometimes you see or hear of people who see >something which is weird but no matter how hard you try you can't get it to >happen again. Not much you can do with that until you can get a repro >scenario. Even if you can consistently repro a bug, it doesn't mean you can >fix it. It might be that the problem is in someone else's code (drivers,

for >example). It might be that the only fix will break something else. It might >be something else. I don't believe any piece of code from any vendor in the >world ever got shipped with zero bugs and ours is no different. We sweat >every bug and don't take any of them lightly. >6) I hope I'm not astonishing anyone on this newsgroup when I point out that

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>engineering is the science of tradeoffs, and that nothing comes for free. >Given unlimited time, resources, and intelligence anything is possible but >no one wants to wait that long <g>. So we wind up looking sometimes at hard >choices. >7) I will monitor this ng and will be happy to post replies to questions as >time permits. Unfortuantely (or fortunately) it's a very large and active >newsgroup and sometimes the signal to noise ratio is not ideal. But I'll do >what I can. >8) We didn't pay any of the CART drivers to say any of the things they said >about CPR. I've never known racers who told you what they thought you

wanted >to hear as opposed to what they felt. If those guys think the game drives >like the real thing, I think that's a pretty good endor***t. >9) If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or CPR, >that's fine with me. It's a free country (or internet, as the case might be) >and no one will censor this ng for controversial postings. I'd like to spend

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>my time discussing things that are based in fact, rather than paranoia or >fantasy. If you want to stoop to that, feel free, just don't expect to see >me join in. >-- >Cheers, >John Browne >MS CART Team

Nice to hear that the narrowminded people in this ng have not totally ruined things for the rest of us balanced people. Welcome Jeff -- Regards Glenn Beaumaris ------------------------------------------ "I believe in God-After All Helen Hunt Exists" =================================== The Quote of 1997: "The first thing you notice is her spirit and her talent, then her beauty hits you, and you're like, 'Well, excuse me, but she's gorgeous!' You don't even notice what she's wearing because her aura dominates. That's true style." >Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of >products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about CPR >and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: >1) We're working on a patch. It is totally a response to some of the >comments made on r.a.s., many of which we agree with. A list of items >addressed in the patch has been forwarded up to this ng, and most of them >will indeed be in the patch. A couple of items may not make it. >2) The patch won't make the game perfect. But it will make it better. We >think it's a pretty good game right now, and we're all jazzed at the >improvements in the patched builds. >3) CPR is version 1: our competition (all games you folks love) are further >along. They've had longer to work out the bugs and problems than we have. >While I don't expect you to cut us any slack because of that, it might help >you understand where we're at. Whenever you decide to enter a mature >category, you have the daunting challenge of trying to catch up. You can >either spend years developing a product, during which time your competition >also matures and raises the bar you have to meet, thus sending you back to >the drawing board repeatedly, or you can get something out on the street and >revise it like crazy. In reality neither plan is optimal but the latter is a >little more doable than the former here at MS. This doesn't mean you can >ship an inferior V1 product, because you still have to compete on your own >merits against the competition, but it does mean you sometimes have to stage >your development process and goals into long-term milestones. >4) I've worked at MS for almost 11 years, and in all that time (working on a >variety of products from C++ compilers to Excel to the Handheld PC) I've >never seen any of the corporate dominators that MS is supposed to be full >of. I've seen, instead, groups of really dedicated people working lots of >hours to ship great products. Nobody deliberately sets out to hose your OS >or munge your registry. As far as I know, CPR does none of those things. If >we do bad stuff like that, we get deluged in support calls and it comes back >to haunt the product group. We actually have a config lab with lots of >popular and weird hardware, including beta hardware, and we have lots of >dedicated testers, who try every way they can think of to break stuff. They >take real pride in it. >5) Observing a bug is different from finding one and finding one is >different from fixing it. Sometimes you see or hear of people who see >something which is weird but no matter how hard you try you can't get it to >happen again. Not much you can do with that until you can get a repro >scenario. Even if you can consistently repro a bug, it doesn't mean you can >fix it. It might be that the problem is in someone else's code (drivers, for >example). It might be that the only fix will break something else. It might >be something else. I don't believe any piece of code from any vendor in the >world ever got shipped with zero bugs and ours is no different. We sweat >every bug and don't take any of them lightly. >6) I hope I'm not astonishing anyone on this newsgroup when I point out that >engineering is the science of tradeoffs, and that nothing comes for free. >Given unlimited time, resources, and intelligence anything is possible but >no one wants to wait that long <g>. So we wind up looking sometimes at hard >choices. >7) I will monitor this ng and will be happy to post replies to questions as >time permits. Unfortuantely (or fortunately) it's a very large and active >newsgroup and sometimes the signal to noise ratio is not ideal. But I'll do >what I can. >8) We didn't pay any of the CART drivers to say any of the things they said >about CPR. I've never known racers who told you what they thought you wanted >to hear as opposed to what they felt. If those guys think the game drives >like the real thing, I think that's a pretty good endor***t. >9) If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or CPR, >that's fine with me. It's a free country (or internet, as the case might be) >and no one will censor this ng for controversial postings. I'd like to spend >my time discussing things that are based in fact, rather than paranoia or >fantasy. If you want to stoop to that, feel free, just don't expect to see >me join in. >-- >Cheers, >John Browne >MS CART Team begin 666 Glenn Beaumaris.vcf M0D5'24XZ5D-!4D0-"E9%4E-)3TXZ,BXQ#0I..D)E875M87)I<SM';&5N;CM( M4CM(3TU%.T5.0T]$24Y'/5%53U1%1"U04DE.5$%"3$4Z.SL],$0],$$],$0] M"DQ!0D5,.TA/344[14Y#3T1)3D<]455/5$5$+5!224Y404),13H],$0],$$] M1#TP04%U<W1R86QI80T*14U!24P[4%)%1CM)3E1%4DY%5#IG;&5N;F]M0&US ` end end

Congratulations, John, on your opening address to this NG and may you, and eventually we, reap the benefits of what useful feedback you receive. -- Bruce (at work) "An honest politician is one who, when he is bought, will stay bought." (Simon Cameron)

<<If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or CPR, that's fine with me. It's a free country (or internet, as the case might be) and no one will censor this ng for controversial postings. I'd like to spend my time discussing things that are based in fact, rather than paranoia or fantasy. If you want to stoop to that, feel free, just don't expect to see me join in.>> John-- I'm sorry; I thought for awhile that Mr. Lester was just backed against a wall and lashing out in any direction he could, but you guys really don't get it, do you? Too bad...you have an exceptionally valuable resource in this newsgroup that could really help you solve the problems with the sim, but instead you come up with a Dutch Uncle lecture... Best of luck with catching up with the competition; you're certainly going to need it. Bart Brown

Hi John, Welcome to the r.a.s. bonfire...Hope you brought marshmellows! ;) Cheers! Marc

>7) I will monitor this ng and will be happy to post replies to questions as >time permits. Unfortuantely (or fortunately) it's a very large and active >newsgroup and sometimes the signal to noise ratio is not ideal. But I'll do >what I can. Glad to see you're still around, John. Joe

>Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of >products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about CPR >and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: John, You guys going to do an update to Monter Truck Madness. Nobody ever talks about it, but IMHO, MTM was/is a fun game. Bring the graphics up to date, and add a bunch of new trucks/tracks and release a version 2. How about it? Thanks, Huk_Phin

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> >Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of > >products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about > CPR > >and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: > John, > You guys going to do an update to Monter Truck Madness. Nobody ever > talks about it, but IMHO, MTM was/is a fun game. Bring the graphics up to > date, and add a bunch of new trucks/tracks and release a version 2. How > about it? > Thanks, > Huk_Phin

Yes, it was confirmed that MTM-2 is in the works for a mid-1998 release. I was told to expect an update to the TRi and MS Website after the first of the year with more info. Doug

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:44:49 -0800, "John Browne" >4) I've worked at MS for almost 11 years, and in all that time (working on a >variety of products from C++ compilers to Excel to the Handheld PC) I've >never seen any of the corporate dominators that MS is supposed to be full >of. By means of a welcome, I'd just like to say that if you worked on Excel and helped shape it into what it is today, then I should tell you that I love you :) By far and away the best piece of software I own, and that's including Quake 2! Without it my job would be many times more difficult and time consuing than it is (In case my boss should see this I should just point out that it's not to say my job isn't already difficult and time consuming!) Cheers! John

Thanks for all the kind words. Let the fracas begin! -- Cheers, John Browne MS CART Team

> Let the fracas begin! Isn't that something to do with alt.***.went'n'wild ? Andrew (looking sweet'n'innocent... or is that another NG?)

While not the same issues, was not the ranting here about this time last year concerning the "rushed out the door" status of N2?? I still remember back in the bbs days all the exploding expletives aimed at Papyrus when the Modem racing was pure bunk in ICR1. The more things change/improve the more they stay the same dave henrie

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> Maybe, just maybe, if you could be honest and up front as to why these > issues weren't addressed for the initial release (or why they won't be > considered for future patches), some of us can come to an understanding > and hopefully accept them for what they are. Maybe my problem is I just > don't appreciate being told "hyped" that we are going to receive the > most complete and "thrilling" sim yet produced, only to see a not quite > finished product foisted on the buying public just before Christmas. > -- > **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* > Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. > =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

I don't know about anybody else, but I certainly feel better after reading John Browne's message. I guess we expected a perfect product since we've had so many great driving sims recently. Perhaps we all thought that when any new sim came out, it would be an improvemnet over the existing sims. As end users, we don't realize the pressures that the programers and engineers and techies are under to get a product out. And we don't feel their pain when it comes to the vast differences on hardware and drivers and other software that causes conflicts and other unimaginable trouble. The upshot is that Mr. Browne says that a patch is being worked on. From what I have read during the past few days, it seems like alot of the issues that we've had are being addressed. And hopefully, some of the other issues will be addressed in the future (version 1.2?). Keep up the good work,

John, I was playing CPR lately and I wanted to try the non-accelerated version, so I switched with F4 to software rendering mode. I could see all the way to the end of a straightaway, even if the graphics look a little better in accelerated mode. I then switched back to D3D with F4. I began playing with keys like +/= and _/-, ctrl-f and ctrl-h to see what I could do to improve the frame rate. But then it struck me. As I was racing the D3D version I realized that I could not see the end of a straightaway until it was too late, and I was banging walls like crazy. I tried cranking up the visibility with ctrl-H (or F, I don't remember wich one pushes it away to 30) and saw no difference. I tried it several times and then I completely stopped my car on the track to see if it had any effect. I was in a part of the circuit wich was crowded with trackside objects. To my surprise, nothing ever changed, there was always this kinda rectangle-shaped void at the end of my horizon, where all walls and buildings disappear. Is this normal? What exactly do the ctrl-F and ctrl-H keys do? I really need to see the corners coming in order to react. Of course if I learn all tracks I will be able to drive anyway, but it's a lot harder to learn tracks when you can't see them... And of course hitting the walls 20 or more times per turn can become a little ennoying, preventing you from really appreciating the game. I hope you can help me, A. Renault

<snip> % 3) CPR is version 1: our competition (all games you folks love) are further % along. They've had longer to work out the bugs and problems than we have. % While I don't expect you to cut us any slack because of that, it might help % you understand where we're at. Whenever you decide to enter a mature % category, you have the daunting challenge of trying to catch up. You can % either spend years developing a product, during which time your competition % also matures and raises the bar you have to meet, thus sending you back to % the drawing board repeatedly, or you can get something out on the street and % revise it like crazy. In reality neither plan is optimal but the latter is a % little more doable than the former here at MS. This doesn't mean you can % ship an inferior V1 product, because you still have to compete on your own % merits against the competition, but it does mean you sometimes have to stage % your development process and goals into long-term milestones. <snip> Okay, let's go pre-r.a.s. One of the first decent PC racing sims I found was Grand Prix Ciruit by Accolade (circa 1988). I don't recall any major bugs. Then came Indianapolis 500 the Simulation by Papyrus (circa early 1990). Again a great version 1 sim. No real complaints, no real bugs. It included good AI and proper Yellow Flags. I consider World Circuit/Grand Prix by Microprose to be a version 1 sim. Some minor problems which were fixed with patches. However, I don't recall major shortcomings in the AI department (yellow flags don't really count in F1 [and if they do the real drivers ignore them anyway <G>]). I guess I just find it hard to believe that the AI in CPR needs the attention it is getting via a patch. To me this should have been a number 1 priority for initial release. Oval AI should be easier to program than road circuit AI, yet in CPR it seems reversed. In the Yellow Flag department, I can understand the "local yellow" concept only for road circuits, but for ovals? To leave this out seems extremely short-sighted. And to the best of my knowledge there has been no comment from the development team about fixing this issue. As a matter of fact this issue was brought up quite a number of times here in r.a.s. and was bascially ignored by your team. I just think you are overstating the "trashing" real sims have gotten in r.a.s. When you say they have had a longer time to work on the bugs and major problems than you have, this is not quite true. For the sims listed above they are all Version 1's and did not have the problems experienced by many users of CPR. Now don't get me wrong, I am not bashing. I understand that you are still "cutting your teeth" in the sim biz. But, to excuse some of the problems and omissions in your sim as Version 1 "bugs" I find a little too dis-ingenious. I agree that you are attempting to enter a mature market (but basically competing against 2 mature products). But I still find it hard to swallow the need to rush a product to the market that was not fully developed. Maybe I could understand a little bit more if we could get an honest answer as to why many of the concerns addressed by your beta testers were not acted upon. I just can't believe the beta testers didn't mention some of these problems being addressed (or not) by the upcoming patch: 1) Tire Tempature readings 2) Yellow Flags 3) AI problems 4) Steering controlling problems 5) Frame rate Just to list a few... Maybe, just maybe, if you could be honest and up front as to why these issues weren't addressed for the initial release (or why they won't be considered for future patches), some of us can come to an understanding and hopefully accept them for what they are. Maybe my problem is I just don't appreciate being told "hyped" that we are going to receive the most complete and "thrilling" sim yet produced, only to see a not quite finished product foisted on the buying public just before Christmas. -- **************************** Michael E. Carver ************************* Upside out, or inside down...False alarm the only game in town. =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=<[ /./. [- < ]>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

So it *was* worth keeping the "retrieve immediately" filter for you MS guys. Glad to have you here, John! >Yes, it's true that Dean Lester had to pack it in. He actually has a lot of >products to worry about, not just CPR. I, OTOH, only have to worry about CPR >and Monster Truck Madness. So let me try to set a few expectations: [snip] I think most of the serious criticism stems not from the fact that CPR is version 1.0, but from the impression that it was released as V 0.9b in the Americas to meet the Xmas buying frenzy. I tend to believe that you, as a programmer, weren't happy about this - and I guess that you, as an employee, aren't allowed to admit this unhappiness publicly. OTOH, no matter what route you take as a developer, some people will always be angry at you. I remember vividly the pre-GP2 time when this group was full of postings asking "Why isn't it released yet?" Because it wasn't ready yet, I guess. [another snip] If I may offer some "survival hints" (most of which you're probably aware of anyhow): - Don't try to be comprehensive in your RAS coverage. That way lies madness. - Don't bother giving tech support for well known questions (like what key moves out clipping distance in CPR) The RAS hivemind has absorbed the answers you or your colleagues gave earlier, and someone will post the correct answer to easy questions. - If a posting annoys you big time, sit back and ask yourself calmly: "Does this person have a valid point after all?" If the answer is "yes", try to ignore the annoyance and address the fact (if you deem it necessary.) If it answer is "no" - killfile them for a month! Makes life much more pleasant. :) Somebody came up with an interesting thought concerning this: Mark Blundell knows better than any of us what one can do - and what one can't do - in a *real* CART car at Laguna Seca. If he drives your sim, he will most likely drive it the same way he would drive a real car. If the car behaves like the real thing, he will consider the sim very realistic. OTOH, guys like Achim (the notorious hot-lapper) probably don't have too much experience with real CART racecars. They know, however, an awful lot about driving *simulated* racecars. They will try things Mark Blundell wouldn't even dream of (or maybe he would, in his worst nightmares ;) - and get away with it. It seems as if CPR behaves very realisticly (is that a word?) as long as you drive it realisticly. However, it allows being driven "unrealisticly" - how else do you explain the very low laptimes some people achieve? Yes, an honest endor***t by a real CART driver is a good thing, but I'd also like to see endor***ts by "real" sim drivers. This is a sound point of view. As long as you don't confuse harsh but justified criticism with bashing. Once again, glad to have you here! -- Wolfgang Preiss \ E-mail copies of replies to this posting are welcome. wopr"at"stud.uni-sb.de \ There is no "2" in my real e-mail address. Uni des Saarlands \ Sorry for the inconvenience. You know why.

On Mon, 15 Dec 1997 16:44:49 -0800, "John Browne" If, after reading this, you want to continue to bash Microsoft or CPR, John, Welcome. It's nice to know that MS voice is still here. Any idea when we can expect the patch? I haven't seen any mention of the issue of no yellows flags being included in the patch. Is it being addressed at this time? And will an updated version be available at the retail level without having to download and install the patch? Joel Willstein